Deseret News | Reader comments: Talking about God in sports a touchy topic

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Amy Donaldson: Talking about God in sports a touchy topic

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SLC'er | 12:17 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

that is the lamest article ever written by the D-News. Glad you came to Collie's defense when he was being picked on. If you're going to come out and say things, then you can't cry when those same things get said back to you.

Matthew | 12:28 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

thanks Amy. This is why I hate the reference to this rivalry as the holy war. I don't even like this rivalry much because of the venom surrounding religion. I do not like it and, though a devoted fan, I stay far from the fray

James | 1:05 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

boo freakin hoo. You're one of about three people who actually care what those comments say. Welcome to the cruel world.

Comments continue below

MWC Fan | 1:58 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Amen!

Blessed are the peacemakers | 5:02 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Amy wrote an important column here. The natural assumption for any sports fan who hears a player hint that God helped him/her succeed is that in turn God refused to help the team that lost. Therein lies the rub. Was the 1980 Miracle Bowl win for BYU over SMU a blessing to the Cougs or a punishment for the Mustangs. Both were religions schools. Same for BYU's 2 wins over Notre Dame. Or BYU's three losses to Notre Dame and wins and losses against Boston College, religious schools all. One could only conclude from this that God has a good sense of humor, shining his light on one team one year and the other the next. If nothing else, he keeps serious gamblers at bay, since betting on football involving religious schools is unbearably unpredictable.

I find the "Holy War" between the Y and the U most enlightening. The vast majority of U students are the same religion as those at the Y, yet the hatred and resentment they direct at Y students is palpable. It is telling that they criticize and mock a school owned and operated by their own church, where imperfect students try to live standards.

EdM | 6:13 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Amy, I think that is what the bloggers have had a field day with. Collie, by his own comments, was mocking others who maybe are NOT active LDS, or who are members of other faiths. That is why they have gone off on him. With that said, I don't know Austin Collie. I do think though that he opened Pandora's Box with his comments. Danged if he does now, and danged if something goes terribly wrong. Just get healthy Austin, at least before the game in November against my beloved Utes. That way when your Coogs lose some yahoo out there will be able to say "I guess the Lord felt the Utes were living the right way".

Jake | 6:42 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

A very well written article. I am a big sports fan, also active LDS, but I think God is a very impartial referee when it comes to sports. I believe he loves His children who line up on one side of the ball as much as he loves those who line up on the other side of the ball, regardless of religious affiliation or any other factor. As an individual athlete, sometimes the breaks go against you and sometimes they go for you, but over time they all average out. I am convinced there are some things in life that we think are vitally important to us (such as sports) that are not so vitally important to the Lord!

Mark | 7:50 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

As a loyal fan of one of the two schools involved, I'd like to thank you for a reasonable position in what has become an outrageous and useless debate within the context of the rivalry. I love my school, but hate the sophomoric bickering between us and our rival.

Matt | 8:05 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I don't have a problem when athletes thank God for helping them do their best. I think the trouble starts when they imply God wanted them and not the other guy to win.

Re: SLC'er | 8:10 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

SLC'er, no, the author got it 100% right by saying she didn't know if God really did care about sporting events but it's classless and just plain mean for anyone to revel in the pain or misfortune suffered by another.

For you to say that this is the "lamest article ever written by the D-News" shows that you have not one iota of class or concern for others who don't fit into your narrow definition of what is "acceptable".

Please, by all means, tell us your real name so that caring and intelligent people can avoid having to deal with you.

Here's mine:

Dan Maloy
Enid, OK

SAH | 8:11 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Great article. Bronco is teaching his players to rely on the Lord, on and off the field. Is there a problem with this? Just because a player recognizes his dependency on the Lord doesn't mean he is saying he is more righteous or better than the next football player. In the words of the great missionary Ammon "Yea, I know that I am nothing: as to my strength I am weak; therefore I will not boast of myself, but I will boast of my God, for in his strength I can do all things; yea, behold, many mighty miracles we have wrought in this land, for which we will praise his name forever."

I believe this is the stance that Collie is taking, and I agree with him 100%.

Now, as far as the leg injury, who said that BYU was not going to have opposition? It is also taught that there must be opposition in all things. I don't think its a curse, it could be a blessing! A lot of people are quick to judge. Let it play out and see what happens.

Go Cougars!

Tyler | 8:18 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I'm no expert when it comes to football and the emotions that go along with playing this very physical and popular game. But something that I've always thought of especially with in it comes to the "Holy War" is that I really don't think God cares about who wins football games. What I do think he cares about is how you play the game, how you treat your opponents and how your treat the people the other people around you.

collie | 8:23 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Collie reacted poorly when asked about his comments. He had a great chance to say, "no, no, that's not what I meant." Instead, he said "People who question me on this are losers." I know he's just a kid (22 years old?), but he must have known what both of his statements meant in this state. He made one bad choice, and he compounded it with another.

None of that justifies meanspirited comments, but certainly the fun teasing is not out of line.

As for the hatred in SLC, let's not kid ourselves - clearly there is plenty of hate on both sidelines.

DL | 8:20 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

This article used the word "infer" when it should have used "imply."

Tom | 8:39 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

If you read the article, the author isn't defending Collie, but basically says that he's getting what he deserves. She is just trying to point out that when you bring God into sports, it's a lose-lose situation because the athlete speaking looks like an idiot and the angry fans turn in to jerks.

LDS Utes: Choose The Red | 8:51 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I've got to say, it's a blast to be an LDS Ute fan. You are more aware of the LDS influence on the team at the U. Eric Weddle was babtized while playing at the U, thanks to the influence of other LDS teammates, most noteably Morgan Scalley (okay, and a girl).

I went to a Scott Mitchell fireside, where he said he had always planned on going to BYU, until he prayed about it. If he had gone to BYU he may or may not have been as successful, but Ty Detmer may not have gone to BYU, if Mitchell was there. If that would have happened Ty's college career may not have been as good, but he may have never had the chance to get babtized.

I agree with a comment above that if an athlete thanks God for helping them play well, that's fine. But God doesn't care who wins.

I am convinced that God did care who won a football game, ONE TIME: LaVelle's last game. There is no other explanation.

Zeke | 9:01 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I think God does`nt care about sports.

why? | 9:31 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

If you are any religion and pray in the endzone it's okay, but if you are LDS it's disrespect to everyone. God doesn't care about sports, or BYU would win every game!

Texas Cougar | 9:30 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Very good article for that region of the country.

Down here in the south, you will NEVER separate God from football. However, I will say that my Bible belt friends are much better at being Christians at the game than people in the 'Holy War' (which it never has been). My Longhorn, Aggie, and Sooner friends all get worked up about their rivalries, and yet they never let it go too far (like the Utah fan that took a swing at my wife before the 2005 BYU Utah game). I don't know why the BYU/Utah rivalry has gotten soo ugly. It wasn't like this even 15 years ago. And its not just Utah fans. I've almost gotten into scuffles with BYU fans that refuse to be good sports.

In a culture where so many profess to be good Christians, sporting events are a great place to distinguish between those who are blowing hot air and those who practice what they preach. Those that become abusive to opposing fans, officials, etc. defend themselves by saying that its part of the game. I've never met a fan who, by being a jerk to others, has helped his team win a game.

dan | 9:42 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

scoring or winning is only a part of the sport formula now days..... the rest you ask? watch the end zone celebration, the home run trot... the in your face jam and the answer is clear...is that sportsmanship...or something else...

Anonymous | 9:45 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Very nice story Amy. When you read comments be prepared. Some one should have warned both you and Austin about throwing your "pearls before swine".

Austin was not "mocking others who maybe are NOT active LDS, or who are members of other faiths." he was adressing his faith. I was proud of him.

I coached an inner city LA Highschool basketball team for many years and the kids would get together and pray (I did not participate, it needed to be student led) before and after the games. They did, because they did not seperate God from a certain section of their lives. they never asked him to be there to help them win or lose, but play their best.
But, the saga continues.

You never know what motivates a player, or a team, but I'm guessing a potential future NFL stud might get it into his head to show the poor Ute defense what a person can do if he lives right, and November 22 will be known in Uteland as the year Collie sets all of those records.

Re: Alma The Wiser | 9:52 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Collie can say whatever he wants, and you can't tell him he "shouldn't have said something." If a player recognizes God's hand with his performance, how is this something he shouldn't have said?

I would say the same thing if a Utah player would recognize God in assisting their team as well. Everyone can recognize God's help with their work, school, athletic performance, etc, and I don't think it is wrong.

Do you think God doesn't care about all people in general? Doesn't he care about all football players then? And Collie was just recognizing that. He never said God was cursing Utah or didn't favor Utah either, but that is what people are assuming.

I hope Collie thanks God after every game, and let's the whole world know it!

Call me Mr Apathy | 10:00 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

re:Alma The Wiser

I see how it could be twisted, but I never cared personally what anyone said after a sporting event. It was over.

I could have cared less if he had said "God personally lifted me, God made my feet run faster", etc. I would have thought, "Hey, that's what a young kid would say".

I have had God, or someone he sent, intervene in my life, or I should be dead today, and the Dr.s were convinced that ny youngest daughter would not be born, and yet she is beautiful and upstairs giving me excuses why she should not have to clean her room.

Am I saying God loves me more to be alive when other died, or loves our family more because my daughter was born, and other's weren't. Not at all. I tell others about it, but not in front of a mic. Austin will learn how to temper his statements.

In the meantime, I have read many posts far more offensive and disturbing than anything people might have thought Austin said.

But, see, I don't take personally what any Ute or BYU fan says, they have the right to feel the way they do.

Anonymous | 10:02 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Many people are misconstruing Collie's words to mean that the Utes were evil and were therefore punished. Collie simply said, in its simplist form, that if you live well, God tends to bless you. This interpretation is in line with pretty much any Christian denomination and, quite frankly, is harmless. His statement, however, does not mean that if you are not blessed you are not living well. Sometimes God lets you fend for yourself even if you are living well. People have come to interpret Collie's statement to mean the latter of the two interpretations and have had issues with that incorrect interpretation. By no means does Collie's words imply or infer that the Utes were not living right and by no means should it be taken as an insult.
Those who were offended/angered/insulted by these comments need to take a step back and re-read what he said.

God helps | 10:29 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I have been taught that Gods stance is if it matters to his child it matters to him. I am not a religious fanatic, but I ask God to help me in whatever I do. If I am taking a test in school, if I am interviewing for a new job. If I am traveling a long distance and want peace and safety. I ask for help to perform to the best of my ability and preparation. I think the same applies in Sports. I see nothing wrong with an individual who asks for help to perform their best. And then when they do give credit to a higher power. Watch touchdowns home runs game winning last second shots, and you will see a large number of athletes make some recognition to a higher power.

The situation with Collie was blown out of proportion because the schools involved and his religious affiliation. Should he have said what he did? Probably not. But is there a problem with believing that god helps you, and publicly recognizing it?

Trex | 10:35 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Many who have posted have repeated the phrase, "I don't know if God cares about a football game, or not..." Well, I DO know. God does not care a whit about any particular athletic event. He simply wants to know the point spread and he is very mad at the DNews for not providing it.

Austin was right | 11:04 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I think Austin was right. By "living right" and doing what he percieves to be the right things on & off the field, per the instructions he has received over the years, that will help him to do his best. That philosophy applies to all of us.

And saying "magic happens" to me is just another way of saying "you make your own luck". And making you own luck happens after a lot of hard work and preparation following principles that can bring success.

It doesn't make me mad that he said what he did, and I wouldn't be upset if a Ute player or any other player had said it (as long as they were being sincere about their beliefs and not mocking others).

Chicago Perspective | 11:17 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Carlos Zambrano points to the sky whenever he walks off the mound.

Yesterday, Reed Johnson said that things happen for a reason, and he was thankful that they did.

Nodody batted an eye. Interesting.

Re: Call Me Apathy | 11:33 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

The difference is, Collie just won a game and made his comments.

If you were in the hospital and said "God stepped in and played a part in my daughter being born. Magic happens." And the couple in the next room just had their unborn baby die, how do you think that sounds to them? You have just said that you and your child are more choice in God's eyes than the other couple, and you said it right in front of them.

Very prideful. And what comes after the pride?

re: Alma the wiser | 11:43 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Easily offended are we?

You and the rest of the offended Utes continue to twist what Collie said into something you claim is a personal attack on the Utes. He never said God doesn't love the Utes or the Utes aren't living right so they lost. You offended Ute fans have made the assumption and inferred meaning into his statements to justify your hatred.

Collie shouldn't have come out and said people that are offended are losers. What he should have said is that people that are looking for reasons to be offended will find them. They infer things that were never said just to make themselves offended. Congratulations. You made an assumptive leap to justify hatred. Chalk it up as a moral victory for the Utes. Now you can claim "magic happens" to you too.

The real value... | 11:52 a.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I'm supportive of the BYU program, not for it's win-loss statistics, but for the environment that surrounds the players throughout their tenure there.

Those who have been part of well coached teams know the closeness that you have with the coaches and players. Bronco has dedicated his professional life in seeing that the wishes of the First Presidency are fulfilled. Of course he knows full well the amazing tradition BYU Football has had over the years and I'm sure feels a huge amount of pressure to win.

But he also knows that the athletes he has responsibility over are far more important than whether they win or lose. He realizes that if he teaches them correct principles and works very hard, good things will happen. Most importantly when the players leave, they will take with them stronger testimonies and a drive to live the gospel the rest of their lives. I think that is the major difference between BYU and all other coaches in the country; Bronco treats it as a church calling. There's far more at stake here than money, fame, and simply winning.

Go BYU!

Call me Mr. Apathy | 12:02 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

So, I should walk on eggshells not to hurt others.

If I was in the other room, and my daughter had just died, I would step in when appropriate and express joy to the other couple for their "blessing", and congratulate them.

See, I don't run around looking to be offended. Maybe the Utes giving up the 4th and 18 blessed the team to be more focused on 4th and 18 years later. Many of the team are going to learn from that experience, and be better when things like that happen again, on and of the field, and deal with it better. The public outrage, to me, is embarassing to those who continue to whine. Take the L like men, and walk-off the field.

The football programs are trying to build men, not a bunch of crybabies. I think Joe Glen was the one who was offensive at the Wyoming game last year, not Kyle.

Crap happens, and we still try to live right.

We live in a hypersensitive, narsasistic world.

Maybe it's time to grow up and realize that anytime someone says something it's not meant to demean us.

I personally feel the whole "whining" thing is stupid.

re:Alma | 12:11 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I'll jump in here for a quickie.

This is really a year later, and still an issue.

I agree, Collie shouldn't have come out and said people that are offended are losers.

However, the people that continually cry about this are "LOSERS" and it is time to get some class and get over it.

How do you expect you team to play like athletes, when my 7 year old soccer son could get over this in about 5 seconds.

Cousineau | 12:14 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

The only colors in heaven are scarlet and gray

in the right | 12:31 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I know just how Collie feels. I just beat my brothers at RISK, and they said it was luck, but I knew it was because I had the missionaries over for dinner the other night.

A year later | 12:35 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Why are people still whining?

How about talking about how good Utah is going to be.

Subtle difference | 12:43 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

As an LDS church member (living outside utah) I've been able to glean from a number of conversations what it is about Collie's comment (or, just the general theme of that comment and others like it) that irks people more than any other coach or player that thanks God in a press conference after a game.

I think it's completely unintentional, but something about the Mormon chip on the shoulder we carry causes a lot of people to word such statements so that it sounds more like "praise to me for being righteous" than "praise to God for his goodness."

To the average member of another faith, comments like Collie's are just another example of what they perceive to be a very self-righteous attitude among Mormons.

I don't know Collie, but I don't imagine that's what he meant to imply... but I think for the average listener, that's the easiest thing to infer:

Praise me for being so righteous that I deserve blessings more than other people.

Johnny | 12:48 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Close. Crimson and White.

Re: SAH | 12:49 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Must you really bring scripture/LDS doctrine into your post? This is an all-inclusive, sports forum, not Sunday school class. I respect the fact that you try to apply certain principles in your life. But I'm not sure a sports forum is the place to expose certain elements of your religion, mainly scripture.

FYI...self-righteous folks? | 1:19 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Ever seen a football player "cross himself and point towards heaven?" Nice to see such individuals willing to acknowledge someone higher than themselves...especially in athletics.

Haters will always hate and try to tear down. This was a good article so "out come the haters" whom are troubled with anything good and uplifting.

Clear Thinker | 1:17 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

BYU fan's inability to understand what was wrong with Collie's comments is truly shocking.

He wasn't thanking God. He wasn't sharing one of the churches beliefs. He was saying God "stepped in and played a part" in BYU winning the game on that particular play.

If a Catholic Notre Dame WR said the exact same thing after a game with BYU under the exact same '4th and 18' situation, BYU fans would be outraged. You will all say "no we wouldn't" but I know enough Cougar fans to know the truth. BYU fans would all interpret the comments the same way Ute fans are interpreting them.

My Take | 1:25 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I don't care if an athlete after a performance says "I thank God for my performance" or "I thank God for this opportunity." That is just thanking God...Collie said he was living right on and off the field, THEREFORE, God blessed HIM. That is not the same as just thanking god

Sportmanship... | 2:06 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

I think God would enjoy sporting events, but He would care much more about the sportsmanship exercised by all the competitors involved and much less if at all about who the victor will be.

God has nothing to do with how successful BYU or any other athletic program is as far as wins and losses go. Where He might have an influence is sportsmanship when athletes how have a faith and love for God extend a hand of fellowship to their opponents rather than lose their temper.

Winning will always be a natural result of the athlete or team that has worked and prepared the most effectively, acted with better discipline and executed the better game plan, and in some cases just plain old fashioned luck.

If God did have a hand in that catch by Collie against the Utes last season, it was only that God gave Hall a body with an arm to throw the ball and
Collie a body with hands to catch it. Despite what Collie said in the heat of the emotion of it, even as a BYU fan, I do not think God could be credited with any more or any less.

James Halls | 2:29 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Have alot of you that are so against Collie's comments forgoten that he has the protection of the first ammendment just like you. The first ammendment to the Constitution of the United States states that "Congress shall make no law respectng an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free execise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..." Seem to me that alot of you think that you are the only ones that are afforded this right. You have the right to disagree but not the right to abridge his rights!

Re: James Halls | 2:53 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Leave it to some B Y U fan to completely miss the point.

Nobody has said that he CAN'T say what he wants to. Everyone is just saying the he is another self-righteous member of the church for saying what he said.

Well said... | 3:06 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

WELL SAID: "Jake", "Re: SLC'er"(Dan Maloy), "LDS Utes: Choose the Red", and "Texas Cougar"

Calling out hypocrisy | 3:11 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

To all you naysayers out there who are and are so indignant about what Collie said and or how he said it:

Imagine he was not in a BYU uniform.
Imagine that he was African American.

Admit it. You would have shut your pie holes and never said a peep about how it "offended" you.

Black players in the NFL have been saying this kind of stuff for years.

It didn't bother me then. It shouldn't bother you now!!!!

RE: "Re: Alma the Wiser" cont'd | 3:12 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

And then to judge and label others as "losers", this is NOT "living right..off the field" according to the gospel I've learned in being LDS. While probably not intential, he's painted himself to sound like a hypocrite and it should be no wonder why Ute fans would take offense to him. I'm a BYU fan myself, and I do not take pride in the rhetoric Collie used in his responses. I would have given him a pass on the first bad choice of words and believed he didn't intend anything offensive to others, but the way he responded with his next choice of words makes me not so sure.

I'll be interested to see if any Ute fans confirm my analysis of this situation.

I don't think He cares | 3:39 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

God helps all who ask. I don't think he cares too much about who wins, but I know he does care about our self confidence and our ability to help others with that confidence. If a winning catch gives that to someone. Great. I know sports have been a great way for me to be helped and for me to help others. I love sports and I'll beat anyone at any sport who thinks otherwise. he, he. Go Utes.

Agreed 3:12 p.m. | 3:39 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008

Had Collie clarified, this whole thing would get almost no attention. Maybe a joke here or there. But, Collie came out and called everyone "losers" for questioning what he said.

How righteous of him.

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