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Mayors create plan to help Jordan District split
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The Children | 9:03 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
And this is going to save money, make education for effective, and help the
children in what way?
Play Nice | 9:02 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
The east-side thought the west was moving too much sand to their side of the
box, so they decided to build their own sandbox. The law said they could take
all the sand that was on their side of the sandbox and put it in their new box
and �Transition Teams� would determine
how to divide buckets, shovels and �unallocated
sand.�
The east side team quickly determined the sand they were allocated was not enough for them, so they wanted the west to give them some of what was already on their side. The west said, 'no, we�ve barely got enough as it is--besides, you�re the ones who decided to leave, so you take what you�ve got and we�ll keep what we�ve got.'
In the ensuing battle, sand was thrown everywhere. Everyone forgot the original intent of providing enough sand for the children to play. Let�s hope there�s still some sand left for the boxes by the time this is finished.
The east side team quickly determined the sand they were allocated was not enough for them, so they wanted the west to give them some of what was already on their side. The west said, 'no, we�ve barely got enough as it is--besides, you�re the ones who decided to leave, so you take what you�ve got and we�ll keep what we�ve got.'
In the ensuing battle, sand was thrown everywhere. Everyone forgot the original intent of providing enough sand for the children to play. Let�s hope there�s still some sand left for the boxes by the time this is finished.
Comments continue below
OH JOY | 9:02 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
Culllimore was behind the legislation that created this mess. I agree with
Really. This is a major mess and sure to get worse. The west side will be fine.
Sarcasm? | 9:07 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
What is the writer trying to said with her lead-in:
"Here they come to save the day!"
Sarcasm? Cutsie?
I recommend that news reporters stick to facts and eschew commentary.
"Here they come to save the day!"
Sarcasm? Cutsie?
I recommend that news reporters stick to facts and eschew commentary.
Dragon slayer | 9:09 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
Our Cottonwood Heights knight in shining armor helped release this dragon, now
he will ride in on his white horse to save us from it. God bless Mayor C.!
Cherilyn Bacon Eagar | 9:39 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
This sounds a lot like a nasty divorce the more we hear about it! Both sides
will have to compromise and no one will win. The district should never have
been allowed to get so large in the first place.
The best solution for a better education is to get your children out of the public education system altogether. My children have attended (and I�ve taught in some) charter, private, home, public, parochial (Catholic, Lutheran and Calvinist) and I know the difference.
Public education has become a secular morass where students are allowed to dress, talk and act like slobs, controlled by socialist/egalitarian education philosophy nationally and internationally. If you can afford it, you shouldn't be living off the dole anyway. There are great private and online options. Try them, you'll be amazed.
Teachers, that means you too! You have some awesome options out there. You too will be amazed at how little bureaucracy you'll have to deal with and the freedom to teach how you want to teach. Get involved with what's happening outside of the one-size-fits-all public education curriculum and national testing tyranny.
Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research
The best solution for a better education is to get your children out of the public education system altogether. My children have attended (and I�ve taught in some) charter, private, home, public, parochial (Catholic, Lutheran and Calvinist) and I know the difference.
Public education has become a secular morass where students are allowed to dress, talk and act like slobs, controlled by socialist/egalitarian education philosophy nationally and internationally. If you can afford it, you shouldn't be living off the dole anyway. There are great private and online options. Try them, you'll be amazed.
Teachers, that means you too! You have some awesome options out there. You too will be amazed at how little bureaucracy you'll have to deal with and the freedom to teach how you want to teach. Get involved with what's happening outside of the one-size-fits-all public education curriculum and national testing tyranny.
Cherilyn Bacon Eagar
World Class Education Research
No matter what happens | 10:13 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
It seems no matter what happens or gets reported the same whiners and
complainers whine and complain the same old same old stuff.
How do they really expect anything to get a) done or b) better if no matter what happens their only true desire is to complain about it?
Kudos to those actually WORKING towards a solution and not just gumming up the works!
How do they really expect anything to get a) done or b) better if no matter what happens their only true desire is to complain about it?
Kudos to those actually WORKING towards a solution and not just gumming up the works!
Notes on Votes | 10:40 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
Interesting how interested some people are in a mis-perceived "right"
to vote on something that "affects" them....
The 2003 Bond vote [that approved $280 million for MOSTLY west side benefit] had a mere 5.4% [9866 ballots cast) voter turnout! Where were you then? That vote actually had to do with a taxing entity that DID/DOES have authority over you!!! Such a poor showing demonstrates nothing but apathy.
In 2007, 42,757 ballots were cast - 430% MORE. I doubt the population on the east side of the district has increased by over 8 times the 2003 levels.... Over 5 times the voter turnout ratio than in the bond election.
In short almost 2.5 times more people (whithin the new district) voted FOR creating it than the total amount (FOR & AGAINST) that voted in the 2003 bond election - period.
Where were you then? So much non-fact-based crying over "what the evil east siders are doing to me" and "I don't have a voice", yet when the opporunity WAS there AND was legitimate, just about everyone stayed home.
The 2003 Bond vote [that approved $280 million for MOSTLY west side benefit] had a mere 5.4% [9866 ballots cast) voter turnout! Where were you then? That vote actually had to do with a taxing entity that DID/DOES have authority over you!!! Such a poor showing demonstrates nothing but apathy.
In 2007, 42,757 ballots were cast - 430% MORE. I doubt the population on the east side of the district has increased by over 8 times the 2003 levels.... Over 5 times the voter turnout ratio than in the bond election.
In short almost 2.5 times more people (whithin the new district) voted FOR creating it than the total amount (FOR & AGAINST) that voted in the 2003 bond election - period.
Where were you then? So much non-fact-based crying over "what the evil east siders are doing to me" and "I don't have a voice", yet when the opporunity WAS there AND was legitimate, just about everyone stayed home.
Concerned | 10:43 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
How refreshing to hear from "No matter what happens" who wants a
solution for children irrespective of where they live. The Jordan School
District did its best to try and meet the growth demands of the past decade.
However, the overwhelming growth resulted in a school district with 75,000
students and on its way to over 100,000 in a few short years. Given the size of
the district, and the conflicting demands for dollars for new schools and
dollars for aging schools, Jordan School District was put in a no-win
situtation. The District became distant from teachers, students and parents. I
am guessing that the existing Administration and School Board would admit
"off the record" that some type of split was necessary. It is totally
understandable that issue of not being able to vote continues to be divisive.
However,the feeder system to all of the high schools has been protected (east
and west) and the east side will now have the majority of Title I schools and
the percentage of students from lower income families is higher. The east side
will continue to make payments on the 2003 bonds ($281 million) as well as a $3m
per year equalization payment.
Re Notes | 11:29 a.m. Aug. 1, 2008
Where was I then? At the voting booth.
"Non-fact-based crying"? What is non-factual about not getting an opportunity to vote on how MY school district is operated? I got the chance to vote or I did not, and the FACTUAL answer is this time I did not.
The constitution does not say you have a right to vote unless the turnout gets low. It promises a vote. Do you not think voter turn out would have increased even more in 07 if anyone west of I-15 had a say?
If this is a good idea for all, why are you afraid to let us have a say? Because it's only self-serving?
Aside from that, my original point remains. The East side instigated this mess jamming it through as fast as possible because they knew if people had a chance to think about it, they would recognize it as a disaster.
You got what you wanted, only now you've had a chance to analyize it and realize that splitting the district your way is a financial and logistical impossibility. You got the short-end of your own stick.
Why not take your own advice to the West side?
Pay for it yopurselves!
"Non-fact-based crying"? What is non-factual about not getting an opportunity to vote on how MY school district is operated? I got the chance to vote or I did not, and the FACTUAL answer is this time I did not.
The constitution does not say you have a right to vote unless the turnout gets low. It promises a vote. Do you not think voter turn out would have increased even more in 07 if anyone west of I-15 had a say?
If this is a good idea for all, why are you afraid to let us have a say? Because it's only self-serving?
Aside from that, my original point remains. The East side instigated this mess jamming it through as fast as possible because they knew if people had a chance to think about it, they would recognize it as a disaster.
You got what you wanted, only now you've had a chance to analyize it and realize that splitting the district your way is a financial and logistical impossibility. You got the short-end of your own stick.
Why not take your own advice to the West side?
Pay for it yopurselves!
Re: Re: Notes | 12:57 p.m. Aug. 1, 2008
#1 - if you went out and voted, good for you! For every one of you 20 more
didn't.
#2 - It's not YOUR district. The vote was for creating a NEW district not "splitting" the JSD - understanding this paradigm is ESSENTIAL to understanding WHY the vote took place and who was legally eligible. The West side wasn't - so "voter turnout" for no election is irrelevant. The NEW district has no authority over you. JSD's authority to tax you is unchanged. When any incorporation takes place, the County does not cease to exist, rather it makes adjustments to accomodate the wishes of those wanting more local control.
I don't feel you ought to have a say simply because you have no right to create/destroy/modify someone else's tax entities.
The process was very well thought out, your ignorance does not negate that.
Insisting that "we pay for it" ignores that if you really held to that belief (for everyone) the remaining JSD should ante up >$300 million in CASH to "re-pay" for the east's share in everything they've been given to date [and don't claim "the west paid for the east years ago - another common but misplaced myth].
#2 - It's not YOUR district. The vote was for creating a NEW district not "splitting" the JSD - understanding this paradigm is ESSENTIAL to understanding WHY the vote took place and who was legally eligible. The West side wasn't - so "voter turnout" for no election is irrelevant. The NEW district has no authority over you. JSD's authority to tax you is unchanged. When any incorporation takes place, the County does not cease to exist, rather it makes adjustments to accomodate the wishes of those wanting more local control.
I don't feel you ought to have a say simply because you have no right to create/destroy/modify someone else's tax entities.
The process was very well thought out, your ignorance does not negate that.
Insisting that "we pay for it" ignores that if you really held to that belief (for everyone) the remaining JSD should ante up >$300 million in CASH to "re-pay" for the east's share in everything they've been given to date [and don't claim "the west paid for the east years ago - another common but misplaced myth].
Anonymous | 2:11 p.m. Aug. 1, 2008
If the process was so well thought out, why is everyone still fighting about it?
If it was so well thought out, why were district employees issued a gag order
on the split and threatened with termination if they publicly expressed their
opinions? I ask again, why were you so intent on not allowing half of
"our" district to have a say in this?
If the west didn't help pay for the east years ago, where were my tax dollars going when the only school west of I-15 was Bingham highschool? Do I get a refund?
Since when did doubling the cost of everything make fiscal sense? Do you think that administrators are going to take pay cuts to work for smaller districts? Will suppliers maintain the same cost discounts for either district when bulk purchases are cut in half? Understanding "Paradigm" will not change those fiscal realities.
When you quit a country club, you can't take the course with you. As you adamantly point out, yours is a new district. You chose to leave. If it's not "Your" district, theyre not "Your" assets. You cannot eat your cake and have ours as well.
If the west didn't help pay for the east years ago, where were my tax dollars going when the only school west of I-15 was Bingham highschool? Do I get a refund?
Since when did doubling the cost of everything make fiscal sense? Do you think that administrators are going to take pay cuts to work for smaller districts? Will suppliers maintain the same cost discounts for either district when bulk purchases are cut in half? Understanding "Paradigm" will not change those fiscal realities.
When you quit a country club, you can't take the course with you. As you adamantly point out, yours is a new district. You chose to leave. If it's not "Your" district, theyre not "Your" assets. You cannot eat your cake and have ours as well.
Jordan District Patron | 4:05 p.m. Aug. 1, 2008
When reading citizens comments from the west side concerning the split all the
commotion is over taxes. How about you stop and consider the education of Utah
children. It all comes down to the fact that Jordan District was too big to
meet the needs of all students. Yes, it saved a lot of money by spending less
per pupil than any other district in the country. Is this something to be proud
of? Whether you live on the east or west this decision will benefit kids. It
will not go without bumps obviously, the west may see increased taxes and the
east has to go through the pains of creating a district from scratch (and may
have to increase taxes to fix buildings) But in the end both sides will have an
educational system which is more in touch with its parents, teachers, and
students. Both transition teams need to stop trying to punish each other and
concentrate on improving Utahs suffering public education system.
Weak Government | 5:50 p.m. Aug. 1, 2008
This mess was created by the legislature, the Board of Education, the
teacher's union and can only be fixed by the governor.
The only good solution is for the Governor to send this back to the Legislature. And, for the Legislature to craft a good plan it can send to the voters in the entire former Jordan District for approval or rejection.
Conservative Legislators just had to insert themselves into this situation as they "crafted" this bummer of a split plan. They were like a cattleman sticking a knife into a bloated steer.
The Board of Education and the Teacher's Union were so busy screaming bloody murder about a new 1/2% of education funding, vouchers, they felt threatened their supremacy, that they ignored THIS big problem.
They should have helped to shoot this district split plan down in favor of a good plan with total community input.
Remember, it was Huntsman who was luke warm on vouchers and he is being lukewarm now. He should have demanded good government in a potential split. The buck is supposed to stop there. Only Huntsman can do the right thing.
It is time, and past time, for a redo!
The only good solution is for the Governor to send this back to the Legislature. And, for the Legislature to craft a good plan it can send to the voters in the entire former Jordan District for approval or rejection.
Conservative Legislators just had to insert themselves into this situation as they "crafted" this bummer of a split plan. They were like a cattleman sticking a knife into a bloated steer.
The Board of Education and the Teacher's Union were so busy screaming bloody murder about a new 1/2% of education funding, vouchers, they felt threatened their supremacy, that they ignored THIS big problem.
They should have helped to shoot this district split plan down in favor of a good plan with total community input.
Remember, it was Huntsman who was luke warm on vouchers and he is being lukewarm now. He should have demanded good government in a potential split. The buck is supposed to stop there. Only Huntsman can do the right thing.
It is time, and past time, for a redo!
Calling a Leader | 5:58 p.m. Aug. 1, 2008
When are the other municipal leaders in this county going to tell Cullimore to
take his hair brained ideas and take a hike. He is behind so many ideas that are
blowing up systems for the sake of him feathering his municipal nest. He wants
to control schools, police departments, and nickle and dime every other city for
his selfish purposes. He obviously does not know that we are all part of a
larger community.
Anon 2:11 | 10:50 a.m. Aug. 2, 2008
People still fightin because they refuse to accept the reasoning behind the law
that the legislature debated over 4 sessions. That's the paradigm - a good
word meaning "how you look at things".
Your west side tax dollars were going the same places they are today - throughout the district. You err in thinking that sometime in the past the west side paid for a majority of JSD assets. This has NEVER been true. Want a refund of the 20%-30% the west side paid for Bingham High. Fine, take it - but remember to leave the other 70%-80% paid for by east side taxpayers to them. That's the point you miss - right now school buildings are 50/50 on each side but the west side has never paid more than 43% (the current level) for ALL of those assets.
School Districts tend to have dis-economies of scale when >35,000 students. But for that key point, your arguments [doubling everything...] are correct. Dis-economies of scale work against you - look at the Federal Gov...!
County Club FEES are not TAXES. Taxes are paid by all for common assets and common expenses. Big difference!
Your west side tax dollars were going the same places they are today - throughout the district. You err in thinking that sometime in the past the west side paid for a majority of JSD assets. This has NEVER been true. Want a refund of the 20%-30% the west side paid for Bingham High. Fine, take it - but remember to leave the other 70%-80% paid for by east side taxpayers to them. That's the point you miss - right now school buildings are 50/50 on each side but the west side has never paid more than 43% (the current level) for ALL of those assets.
School Districts tend to have dis-economies of scale when >35,000 students. But for that key point, your arguments [doubling everything...] are correct. Dis-economies of scale work against you - look at the Federal Gov...!
County Club FEES are not TAXES. Taxes are paid by all for common assets and common expenses. Big difference!
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I've got news for you pal. We here on the West side were just giddy with excitement that you used loopholes to bypass us in a vote that directly impacts our lives. You knee-jerked yourselves into this bed, now you can sleep in it.
I can personally promise that 5 years from now, there will be a lot more about this deal you won't like.