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State may replace the merit system
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awesomeron | 3:40 a.m. July 24, 2008
As bad as the Merit System is it is far better then what we had going before the
Merit System. Which was good old boy my guy won the election you are out system.
The Merit System has its problems yes and job security can cause productivity
problems. Plus you surely do not want to be over qualified for a job, or be an
out of the Box hard worker showing what really can be done with a little
application. Nor do you want to be smarter then the supervisor and proud of
showing it. Promotion is the Dull moving above the Duller which is where the
calcification comes in. Calcification is the right of Civil Service Passage.
This is why Civil Servants have strong Unions to Protect them. You are not going
to be able to award the industrious much because the others will not allow it.
If you can correct that and fire people who are really bad at their job,
that�s one thing. However the Merit System is a lot better
then the way it was. Plus the Merit System protects Vets, Minorities, Women, and
helps prevent Sexism and Religionist in the Work Place.
Mr. Govenor | 6:23 a.m. July 24, 2008
Coming from your background it is unlikely you have had to deal with a clueless
boss or one who had it in for you.
These protections are there for a reason. Otherwise there are managers who abuse power. I urge you not to make any changes but to encourage the managers to not be lazy and work the system that is now in place.
These protections are there for a reason. Otherwise there are managers who abuse power. I urge you not to make any changes but to encourage the managers to not be lazy and work the system that is now in place.
Civil Engineer | 6:32 a.m. July 24, 2008
As a state employee (Utah Department of Transportation) I am all for this... I
know there will be many who will complain, and talk about how unfair it is...
However, I'ts been terribly upsetting to watch for the past decade as the overall quality of hirees has declined, the retention rate of good employees has gone to pieces, the ability to recruit quality individuals is almost nil, and all the while the general workforce around me has deteriorated. (No, I'm not simply disgruntled... This is all true)
I know a large number of individuals who are not wanted because they are a burden and essentially do nothing, but they are never reprimanded because the grievance process is so long, it is not worth the time or effort.
If you really want to get rid of calcified individuals, eliminate the antiquated pension plan. For many of those calcified individuals, this is the one thing that they cling to. There would have to be an exchange of compensation with a larger 401k plan, but the savings would be huge, and it would be easier to get rid of the dross.
Thank You Governor Huntsman for having the courage to tackle the problem!
However, I'ts been terribly upsetting to watch for the past decade as the overall quality of hirees has declined, the retention rate of good employees has gone to pieces, the ability to recruit quality individuals is almost nil, and all the while the general workforce around me has deteriorated. (No, I'm not simply disgruntled... This is all true)
I know a large number of individuals who are not wanted because they are a burden and essentially do nothing, but they are never reprimanded because the grievance process is so long, it is not worth the time or effort.
If you really want to get rid of calcified individuals, eliminate the antiquated pension plan. For many of those calcified individuals, this is the one thing that they cling to. There would have to be an exchange of compensation with a larger 401k plan, but the savings would be huge, and it would be easier to get rid of the dross.
Thank You Governor Huntsman for having the courage to tackle the problem!
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 7:19 a.m. July 24, 2008
Managers need to be trained to document performance. The system works if the
managers manage.
Can we apply this same.... | 7:40 a.m. July 24, 2008
...."calcification" rule to the state legislature?
Oh, wait. You all like it that way.
Remember: vote Buttars.
Oh, wait. You all like it that way.
Remember: vote Buttars.
The Fifth | 7:46 a.m. July 24, 2008
I worked for the State of Utah (Tax Commission) for almost two years. While
there, I found long term employees (20+ years) napping, reading novels, etc.
Basically, doing everything but their work.
STATE OF UTAH...GET RID OF THE MERIT SYSTEM AND PAY PEOPLE WHAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR DOES!
STATE OF UTAH...GET RID OF THE MERIT SYSTEM AND PAY PEOPLE WHAT THE PRIVATE SECTOR DOES!
Red Smith | 7:59 a.m. July 24, 2008
Taxpayers often find lazy employees but there is no reporting system. State
employees are immune from public oversight.
On the 4 day work week--
France used to be on the 4 day work week. The 4 day work weeks does not work. Taxpayers are paying a full days pay for a spent employee.
The state's 4 day work week sends the wrong message. Imagine if the pioneers had a 4 day work week, or farmers work 4 days a week, or construction workers. When banks go on the 4 day work week, what then. How about a 3 day work week and a standard 4 day week end. The state can print pictures of food, clothing, an shelter and the people can eat, wear and live in the pretty stimulus pictures.
Wealth comes from work not paper work.
If state employees can do 5 days of work in 4 days, then the state should fire 20% of the excess employees, give the remaining employees a 10% raise and the public a 10% rebate. The dead wood is hiding in the state's wood pile.
On the 4 day work week--
France used to be on the 4 day work week. The 4 day work weeks does not work. Taxpayers are paying a full days pay for a spent employee.
The state's 4 day work week sends the wrong message. Imagine if the pioneers had a 4 day work week, or farmers work 4 days a week, or construction workers. When banks go on the 4 day work week, what then. How about a 3 day work week and a standard 4 day week end. The state can print pictures of food, clothing, an shelter and the people can eat, wear and live in the pretty stimulus pictures.
Wealth comes from work not paper work.
If state employees can do 5 days of work in 4 days, then the state should fire 20% of the excess employees, give the remaining employees a 10% raise and the public a 10% rebate. The dead wood is hiding in the state's wood pile.
Irony | 8:11 a.m. July 24, 2008
I worked for the state for over 8 years, most of the time in HR, and every year
I heard the same thing over and over again: our turnover is terrible! The
average tenure of a state employee was less than four years and the average pay
was 15% BELOW market.
Eliminating the merit system won't increase the state's ability to retain employees. It will enable the state to promote and transfer employees more easily. It will also cause a lot of very good employees with 10 plus years to give up and leave.
If the governor wants to screw things up (I don't think he does) he will let Jeff Herring get his way by burning down the house everyone built before him. Jeff is only interested in making a mark for himself. He's NOT interested in keeping the interests of the state, the public, or the state's employees.
By the way, if you completely eliminate the current merit system and/or the current pension plan be prepared to say hello to the public employee unions. The elimination of either/both of the above will create the exact environment they have been waiting for!
Eliminating the merit system won't increase the state's ability to retain employees. It will enable the state to promote and transfer employees more easily. It will also cause a lot of very good employees with 10 plus years to give up and leave.
If the governor wants to screw things up (I don't think he does) he will let Jeff Herring get his way by burning down the house everyone built before him. Jeff is only interested in making a mark for himself. He's NOT interested in keeping the interests of the state, the public, or the state's employees.
By the way, if you completely eliminate the current merit system and/or the current pension plan be prepared to say hello to the public employee unions. The elimination of either/both of the above will create the exact environment they have been waiting for!
evensteven | 8:21 a.m. July 24, 2008
This is a problem that exists at all levels of government and in many large
private organizations. In the end, we have traded job security for mediocrity.
People get shuffled around or promoted to positions beyond their competence
because the system does not allow adequate room to deal with employee problems
short of criminal activity.
An 'at-will' employment environment certainly is not perfect. But the grievance process creates an un-necessarily adversarial relationship in the work place as supervisors try to dot every 'i', cross every 't' and document each incident for every empolyee so as not to be subjective in their application of the rules. It is truly not worth the effort since in the end HR or the union will make your life difficult for even trying.
At-will should mean just that, with very limited exceptions. If government employees want job security, they need to start giving the public a little more bang for its buck rather than just riding the public employee gravy train.
An 'at-will' employment environment certainly is not perfect. But the grievance process creates an un-necessarily adversarial relationship in the work place as supervisors try to dot every 'i', cross every 't' and document each incident for every empolyee so as not to be subjective in their application of the rules. It is truly not worth the effort since in the end HR or the union will make your life difficult for even trying.
At-will should mean just that, with very limited exceptions. If government employees want job security, they need to start giving the public a little more bang for its buck rather than just riding the public employee gravy train.
Jack | 8:30 a.m. July 24, 2008
It is always hard to fight something that everyone elses in the Government is
doing. Most of the people who are lazy are the supervisor's buddies.
Time for Hire/Fire at Will | 9:04 a.m. July 24, 2008
I think it is telling that most of the graduates of the Kennedy School of
Government at Harvard opt not to work in government upon graduation. If
you're ambitious and you want to serve the public to the best of your
ability and (at least every once in a while) be recognized for it, why would you
ever work in government?
Our system does one thing really well - keep talented people out of public service.
Gov. Huntsman, don't compromise on this one. You had it right the first time, its time for hire/fire at will.
Our system does one thing really well - keep talented people out of public service.
Gov. Huntsman, don't compromise on this one. You had it right the first time, its time for hire/fire at will.
Anonymous | 9:26 a.m. July 24, 2008
Government will never be able to pay what the private sector does. The merit
system provides security and is a benefit, along with pension, that keeps
government appealing to younger workers. It also help retain institutional
knowledge. Lose your older workers and you lose all the knowledge they've
retained over years of service.
At will employment just leaves too much room for politically motivated "good-old-boy" hiring and firing. Hopefully, people will start looking at creative solutions, rather than scrapping the positive things that bring job security. I've seen both sides of this argument, and the positive still outweigh any negatives.
I think its also important to remember that the lazy workers aren't the majority. In most cases, government employees are hard working and care about this state.
BTW Red - a four day work week is still a 40 hour work week, plus, chances are a few hours worked from home - its good for Utah air quality, good for saving gas, good for family relations. Now if they'd just start flex-time so that employees could stagger when they come in in the morning and leave at night, that would be good for traffic congestion, too.
At will employment just leaves too much room for politically motivated "good-old-boy" hiring and firing. Hopefully, people will start looking at creative solutions, rather than scrapping the positive things that bring job security. I've seen both sides of this argument, and the positive still outweigh any negatives.
I think its also important to remember that the lazy workers aren't the majority. In most cases, government employees are hard working and care about this state.
BTW Red - a four day work week is still a 40 hour work week, plus, chances are a few hours worked from home - its good for Utah air quality, good for saving gas, good for family relations. Now if they'd just start flex-time so that employees could stagger when they come in in the morning and leave at night, that would be good for traffic congestion, too.
Gazelem | 9:31 a.m. July 24, 2008
Wow, two things in a row that I support Governor Huntsman in. What is the world
coming to. First, He endorses Chaffetz. Now he wants to remove the permanency
in government jobs. I might just start liking Huntsman.
The spoils system cometh | 10:41 a.m. July 24, 2008
Jon Jr. needs to make room for the refugees from the George W. Bush
administration, who will escaping justice by hiding out in Utah.
Reform | 11:05 a.m. July 24, 2008
The merit system needs to go. We all work in and for the public. The old
government employee argument needs to go. The poor service at city, county, and
state level would change quickly if they were evaluated each year and had some
chance of discipline and being terminated. To the good government employees
thanks, to the floaters, coasters, time watchers, the time for change has come.
Get rid of the flawed grievance policy designed to promote underperformance.
public vs. private | 11:03 a.m. July 24, 2008
I hear person after person talk about how rigid and how poor the public worker
is, go to any big corporation and you could be let go, not for being a poor
worker, but almost all get laid off because of cut backs in the company(owners
need to make the same salary in a downturn) or another company buys out your
company, and they don't keep you. Also most people who are lucky enough to
make it thru all this, then at 20 years of service start sweating again, most
big companies don't want to pay someones retirement, so they get fired
before they retire. So you tell me what's better public or private!
Homer S. | 11:25 a.m. July 24, 2008
I think Gov. Huntsman is right. The merit system rewards laziness. But pushing
them to At-will seems like it is going to far. Why would you work for government
if you could get let go at-will? This isn't the private sector where you
have higher pay and other perks that the government can't give.
I think you could just tighten the merit system review process. If employees are getting bad reviews then they should be let go. Managers should be reviewed by their employees. Implement a more motivating bonus program. There are plenty of things to get the workforce motivated and give the security and benefits that a government job provides.
I think you could just tighten the merit system review process. If employees are getting bad reviews then they should be let go. Managers should be reviewed by their employees. Implement a more motivating bonus program. There are plenty of things to get the workforce motivated and give the security and benefits that a government job provides.
Spot | 12:21 p.m. July 24, 2008
First, the merit system doesn't prevent at-will discharge, this is
available to the supervisor during the probationary period. During this time the
employee can be terminated without reason. If there is a concern with at-will
discharge then extend the probationary period to two years. Certainly by then
the employee's work traits would be apparent. Discipline is a management
responsibility; any concerns should be dealt with by the Department of Human
Resource Management with additional management training in the ABC's of the
recruitment, selection, hiring, development of employees, corrective action, and
discipline. Second, Good employees are the rule in government service; look
around at family/friends who serve us admirably in public service; many have
excelled in the private sector prior to public service. The merit system does
not prevent good employees from entering public service, there is nothing to
deter them from entering for government service other than a more attractive job
offer in the private sector. Third, the merit system is part of check and
balance system which is necessary in our society and world of work . . . a
system which helps keep graft out of all levels of government.
Public Servants | 1:00 p.m. July 24, 2008
They have taken charge and refuse to budge
The City has become a law maker without a law degree being a threat to the citizens
Making big emprovements with public money and no vote from the public
Even local emprovements require a vote of the people
Like it or not
The public is at risk
The City has become a law maker without a law degree being a threat to the citizens
Making big emprovements with public money and no vote from the public
Even local emprovements require a vote of the people
Like it or not
The public is at risk
Amy | 2:01 p.m. July 24, 2008
I'm no expert on the merit system (this is the first time I've heard
of it today, reading this article). But, anyone who's ever walked into ANY
government office can tell you there is a problem. No customer service, no
friendliness, no desire to help. Inefficiency. I always just figured that's
what happens when there's no competition, and you have no alternative, and
they know it. Whatever can be done to bring service up to par is great by me.
Chuck | 2:43 p.m. July 24, 2008
If you get rid of the merit system, be ready first for a drop in quality
employees (which is already happening due to low pay, increased demands, and
being jerked around by legislators). Next, when it gets bad enough, then it
will take tremendous pay increases (and tax increases) to get quality, because
people won't want to base a career in that kind of situation. However,
even with big pay increases, the damage will be done, and it will be hard to get
good employees.
Better look long and hard before destroying this tried and true method. It's just that people have forgotten why we put the merit system in place to begin with.
The merit system is probably a bad system. It's just better than any other system!
Better look long and hard before destroying this tried and true method. It's just that people have forgotten why we put the merit system in place to begin with.
The merit system is probably a bad system. It's just better than any other system!
mark | 3:06 p.m. July 24, 2008
Cool that people that have no idea what they are talking about (reform) can post
their opinions here. Even more cool that people that do know what they are
talking about (spot) can post.
Stowell | 3:49 p.m. July 24, 2008
A perfect example of not having the merit system is what happened with sen.
stowell's son. The kid got the job because his dad is in the legislature.
Doing away with the merit system provides the perfect vehicle for the same
situation. What is going to stop your legislator or senator from hooking up
their pals, friends, or family from getting posh jobs in state govt? Why not
just speed up the grievance process?
Bad Idea | 4:15 p.m. July 24, 2008
Huntsman is using this as a reason to eventuallu privatize many of the
government agencies. He has mentioned the prison specifically. If that happens
this state is in serious trouble. The quality of officers being hired will
decrease dramatically. They will no longer have to train them as extensively.
Alot of the benefits will go away. Privitization is a terrible idea that this
will eventually lead to. Please dont't let this happen.
Anonymous | 6:30 p.m. July 24, 2008
There are many facets of this issue. First, job security offsets
lower-than-market wages that most public employees earn for comparable work
requiring comparable skills and education. The legislature has already chipped
away at the retirement, which is also part of the compensation package that
makes the low paying job reasonably attractive. AND they did this unilaterally
and retrospectively. If the Gov. wants to do away with the merit system, he
should pony up with some $$ to offset its value as part of
employee�s compensation.
Second, there is ample opportunity to get rid of the deadbeats. Nobody has the guts to do it. The Governor should make his directors and the managers that work under them accountable: either run a productive staff and get rid of the slugs or YOU'RE the one out of a job.
Third, when Huntsman took office, throngs of his unemployed friends and friends-of-friends showed up, too. Oddly their jobs and salary levels were invented out of thin air and outside the normal process, without regard to their skills or ability to contribute. Gov., how about insisting your political appointees actually show up and do something to earn THEIR pay?
Second, there is ample opportunity to get rid of the deadbeats. Nobody has the guts to do it. The Governor should make his directors and the managers that work under them accountable: either run a productive staff and get rid of the slugs or YOU'RE the one out of a job.
Third, when Huntsman took office, throngs of his unemployed friends and friends-of-friends showed up, too. Oddly their jobs and salary levels were invented out of thin air and outside the normal process, without regard to their skills or ability to contribute. Gov., how about insisting your political appointees actually show up and do something to earn THEIR pay?
Bill (not real name) | 10:44 p.m. July 24, 2008
I have been employeed by the State for over 10 years. The current pay system is
a total joke. It is a system designed to reward mediocrity. You see in the
private sector hard work and extra effort is rewarded with raises and
promotions.
For state employees there are no raises. It is true that we have recieved COLA but actual merit increases for exceptional employees does not happen. Last year they threw some money for line staff in human services as they had created a situation where someone who had been working for over four years was only making pennies more than the new workers they were hiring. Their intelligent solution, move the compresion problem higher up.
When the Govenor and his Appointees really want to take their employees seriously then you may see real change. Till then they are going to continue to hear all the complaints about state workers being lazy or protected etc. The truth is if you do not reward hard working dedicated employees you will lose them or they will lower their level of investment as they come to understand that the Governor just doesn't care about their hard work.
For state employees there are no raises. It is true that we have recieved COLA but actual merit increases for exceptional employees does not happen. Last year they threw some money for line staff in human services as they had created a situation where someone who had been working for over four years was only making pennies more than the new workers they were hiring. Their intelligent solution, move the compresion problem higher up.
When the Govenor and his Appointees really want to take their employees seriously then you may see real change. Till then they are going to continue to hear all the complaints about state workers being lazy or protected etc. The truth is if you do not reward hard working dedicated employees you will lose them or they will lower their level of investment as they come to understand that the Governor just doesn't care about their hard work.
Conejo | 12:05 a.m. July 25, 2008
I have worked for the State and County under a Merit system. I have a difficult
time understanding how a system which sets standards for hiring, promotion, and
termination restricts the government's ability to hire people who only wish
to stay with the government for a short period of time. The merit system does
not make anyone stay at their position. It sets standards for conduct for
hiring, promotion, and termination. The ability to recruit the best and
brightest is encouraged through the Merit System. To say otherwise is misleading
and makes me wonder the real reason behind getting rid of the Merit system. If
the stated reason for getting rid of the system is not valid, there must be
another reason which doesn't reflect well on those pursuing this agenda.
Marie | 8:34 a.m. July 25, 2008
I work in the public sector and my husband works in the private sector. Believe
me, he has just as many lazy and ineffective co-workers as do I. Laziness is not
limited to the public sector.
Also, I'm sure Gov. Huntsman would love to do away with the merit system so he could appoint more of his kiss-up cronies to the public sector. Many of these people have NO interest but advancing their own careers--certainly they have no desire to provide good customer service to the public. I have never experienced an administration that is more concerned with "looking good" and less concerned with actually providing a public service than this one.
Most good managers know that the best way to motivate staff is to appreciate their work. The governor has proven time and time again that he places no value on the service of state employees. If he wants them to be more efficient maybe he ought to treat the work they do with respect rather than disdain.
Also, I'm sure Gov. Huntsman would love to do away with the merit system so he could appoint more of his kiss-up cronies to the public sector. Many of these people have NO interest but advancing their own careers--certainly they have no desire to provide good customer service to the public. I have never experienced an administration that is more concerned with "looking good" and less concerned with actually providing a public service than this one.
Most good managers know that the best way to motivate staff is to appreciate their work. The governor has proven time and time again that he places no value on the service of state employees. If he wants them to be more efficient maybe he ought to treat the work they do with respect rather than disdain.
Give Me Convenience | 11:13 a.m. July 25, 2008
So it would seem that Mr. Huntsman wants to do for the state what his family did
for their chemical company - which is just about bankrupt now isn't it?
Comparing your government services to a private company is inappropriate. If government were indeed run like a private enterprise there would be a fee for everything - asking questions, downloading forms, emergencies - you name it. And the true cost of providing these services would not be shared in a communal economy of scale. In other words it would be very expensive. But at least you wouldn't have lazy bureaucrats to worry about.
Comparing your government services to a private company is inappropriate. If government were indeed run like a private enterprise there would be a fee for everything - asking questions, downloading forms, emergencies - you name it. And the true cost of providing these services would not be shared in a communal economy of scale. In other words it would be very expensive. But at least you wouldn't have lazy bureaucrats to worry about.
Anonymous | 12:40 p.m. July 25, 2008
Huntsman and the legislature don't know how to manage state government.
State employees are not to blame. They are not lazy, they are just beaten down.
The Governor and legislate wont let workers do their jobs.
If you want a better run state government, dump Huntsman and the incumbent legislators in the fall election.
Would you consider looking at Bob Springmeyer for Govenor?
If you want a better run state government, dump Huntsman and the incumbent legislators in the fall election.
Would you consider looking at Bob Springmeyer for Govenor?
Calcified? | 2:02 p.m. July 25, 2008
"The merit system for state employees may need to be replaced, Gov. Jon
Huntsman Jr. said, because the job security it offers is seen as leading to a
"calcified" work force."
And we all know that cacification is not GREEN! So, it's got to go...
And we all know that cacification is not GREEN! So, it's got to go...
john cook | 10:58 a.m. July 28, 2008
Here�s a random thought Gov: Stop paying professional
state employee�s an average of 20% below the private
sector, and yes that includes the benefits. And while we are speaking of
benefits, how about you stop taking away the ones we value the most?
You claim you want the state to run more like a business. Tell me Mr. Businessman, have you ever heard of this one, �You get what you pay for.�?
You claim you want the state to run more like a business. Tell me Mr. Businessman, have you ever heard of this one, �You get what you pay for.�?
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