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MormonTimes.com: Some myths accompany stories of pioneers' arrival
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Sam Hampton | 6:54 a.m. July 23, 2008
I agree that there are many myths associated with the Mormon trek westward, but
must take exception to the following statement:
"It was actually a great adventure," the NPS report continued. "Over the decades, Mormons have emphasized the tragedies of the trail, and tragedies there were, but generally after 1847. Between 1847 and the building of the railroad in 1869, at least 6,000 died along the trail from exhaustion, exposure, disease and lack of food. Few were killed by Indians. To the vast majority, however, the experience was positive -- a difficult and rewarding struggle. Nobody knows how many Mormons migrated west during those years, but 70,000 people in 10,000 vehicles is a close estimate.
"To the 143 men, three women and two children who left Winter Quarters, the 111-day pioneer trek of 1847 was mostly a great adventure, with a dramatic ending."
The NPS report and the article mention that thousands of people died on the way--but I am not sure it is accurate to say that it was a "great adventure" to be threatened by marauding mobs and forced to leave one's property by people threatening to kill you and your family.
"It was actually a great adventure," the NPS report continued. "Over the decades, Mormons have emphasized the tragedies of the trail, and tragedies there were, but generally after 1847. Between 1847 and the building of the railroad in 1869, at least 6,000 died along the trail from exhaustion, exposure, disease and lack of food. Few were killed by Indians. To the vast majority, however, the experience was positive -- a difficult and rewarding struggle. Nobody knows how many Mormons migrated west during those years, but 70,000 people in 10,000 vehicles is a close estimate.
"To the 143 men, three women and two children who left Winter Quarters, the 111-day pioneer trek of 1847 was mostly a great adventure, with a dramatic ending."
The NPS report and the article mention that thousands of people died on the way--but I am not sure it is accurate to say that it was a "great adventure" to be threatened by marauding mobs and forced to leave one's property by people threatening to kill you and your family.
Kim | 7:00 a.m. July 23, 2008
Who's to say that this "new" history is correct? The truth of
the matter is that these early Saints were driven out of the U.S. Not to dwell
on the negative, but surely these people were a bit weary from all of the
persecutions and the martyrdom of their prophet. I'm just grateful that
they went West and established a place where they could finally find peace.
Comments continue below
It was a total experience | 7:17 a.m. July 23, 2008
I'm a docent at the Church Museum of History and Art. We've been
apprised of many of the myths spoken here. But I don't totally agree that
the trip west was super fun all the time--it wasn't like a vacation. If
you read the accounts from journals that Susan Arrington Madsen compiled or
co-compiled, "I Walked to Zion," "Growing up in Zion" and
"I Sailed to Zion," you will get some perspective of the trek west.
Imagine being on a 3-month camping trip where you had to walk instead of drive to your destination in a Fifth wheel, many times forging your own roads. Imagine coming to the United States from England where you lived in a crowded city and had never cooked over a campfire. Imagine coming to a locale with MINIMAL (I did not say "one") trees, alkaline soil, and harsh winters, without a railhead or a store where you could buy supplies. Imagine coming to a place where no one else in the country chose to settle during the great expansion west. Imagine creating an economy in an isolated situation. The pioneers WERE remarkable.
Imagine being on a 3-month camping trip where you had to walk instead of drive to your destination in a Fifth wheel, many times forging your own roads. Imagine coming to the United States from England where you lived in a crowded city and had never cooked over a campfire. Imagine coming to a locale with MINIMAL (I did not say "one") trees, alkaline soil, and harsh winters, without a railhead or a store where you could buy supplies. Imagine coming to a place where no one else in the country chose to settle during the great expansion west. Imagine creating an economy in an isolated situation. The pioneers WERE remarkable.
Faith not Fun | 8:11 a.m. July 23, 2008
From the accounts I've read, their faith was that they were heading to
Zion, and that was the primary source of good spirits.
They knew they would have to put in the labor and sweat to build Zion, but it would be a place of peace and surrounded by friends, in contrast to the places they had left, which hadn't quite made the switch to "diversity", "civil rights", "voting rights", "equal housing" and such ideas, yet. :)
They knew they would have to put in the labor and sweat to build Zion, but it would be a place of peace and surrounded by friends, in contrast to the places they had left, which hadn't quite made the switch to "diversity", "civil rights", "voting rights", "equal housing" and such ideas, yet. :)
Docent Comment #2 | 8:17 a.m. July 23, 2008
During my docent training (four months' worth, once a week for four hours)
we heard regularly from historians at the Church Museum, and we were and
continually are educated as to the duties of the historians and the museum
staff.
Historians there don't seek to invent new versions of history. Yet, they are scrupulous in their constant investigation of first-hand (from pioneers themselves) as well as historical evidence (newspapers of the times, other views not necessarily of the Church) of the early pioneer times and the early times of the church. All artifacts are thoroughly investigated for accurate provenance. While new findings don't reinvent history, they do corroborate it or bring events and people to our understanding in expanded or corrected ways. It is helpful to learn of more than one witness to an event.
We are strictly instructed to present history that is accurate and backed up with historical evidence, and to never perpetuate the ever evolving Mormon myths. Yes, we have them too.
I am grateful to Larry H. Miller and his wife who are funding the Joseph Smith papers project, which is evidence again, of the thoroughness of the Church's historical department.
Historians there don't seek to invent new versions of history. Yet, they are scrupulous in their constant investigation of first-hand (from pioneers themselves) as well as historical evidence (newspapers of the times, other views not necessarily of the Church) of the early pioneer times and the early times of the church. All artifacts are thoroughly investigated for accurate provenance. While new findings don't reinvent history, they do corroborate it or bring events and people to our understanding in expanded or corrected ways. It is helpful to learn of more than one witness to an event.
We are strictly instructed to present history that is accurate and backed up with historical evidence, and to never perpetuate the ever evolving Mormon myths. Yes, we have them too.
I am grateful to Larry H. Miller and his wife who are funding the Joseph Smith papers project, which is evidence again, of the thoroughness of the Church's historical department.
BobP | 8:40 a.m. July 23, 2008
I am a descendant of third company 1847 pioneers and of the Martin Handcart
Company.
Many of the stories I have heard and read may have an element of exageration in them, but not as much as many historians would like to believe. For some reason these finders of fault take the faith and Devine intervention out of the stories.
Elder Lund says it well in his fiction book on the Martin and Willie companies, that some of the stories told if not entirely accurate should be told.
My great grandmother was 8 when she and her 12 year old sister pushed one of the two family carts. Three of her family of 9 died. Then in her 50's she and her husband pioneered the Mormon area in southern Alberta. She died in her 90th year a few months from her sister. So far as I have been able to tell they were that last survivors.
Many of the stories I have heard and read may have an element of exageration in them, but not as much as many historians would like to believe. For some reason these finders of fault take the faith and Devine intervention out of the stories.
Elder Lund says it well in his fiction book on the Martin and Willie companies, that some of the stories told if not entirely accurate should be told.
My great grandmother was 8 when she and her 12 year old sister pushed one of the two family carts. Three of her family of 9 died. Then in her 50's she and her husband pioneered the Mormon area in southern Alberta. She died in her 90th year a few months from her sister. So far as I have been able to tell they were that last survivors.
Allison | 9:02 a.m. July 23, 2008
Who wrote that for the Park Service? They do not sound credible nor informed!
That's too "revisionist" against the FACTS.
Why was it repeated in this publication?
I'm sure that we promulgate too many of the myths we hear but putting down the difficulty of the trek is not the way to clear anything up. If you have ever tried a re-enactment or have lived (even for a few days) as they had to live, you would change your mind.
They had to leave all they knew and often with much less than they needed, trek hard, take care of one another (often without husbands if theirs were in the Mormon Battalion or dead), and fight the elements to escape severe persecution.
What fun!
It did get easier after the Continental Railroad came through but the first 20 years of the Mormon Trail were not easy.
How many of us could make that same trip today?
Why was it repeated in this publication?
I'm sure that we promulgate too many of the myths we hear but putting down the difficulty of the trek is not the way to clear anything up. If you have ever tried a re-enactment or have lived (even for a few days) as they had to live, you would change your mind.
They had to leave all they knew and often with much less than they needed, trek hard, take care of one another (often without husbands if theirs were in the Mormon Battalion or dead), and fight the elements to escape severe persecution.
What fun!
It did get easier after the Continental Railroad came through but the first 20 years of the Mormon Trail were not easy.
How many of us could make that same trip today?
Dave | 9:07 a.m. July 23, 2008
Take a look at what we (LDS) buy and sell today. It's fiction, especially
historical fiction. Tall tales. Truth just isn't exciting enough anymore,
but should be.
The pioneer stories might seem simplistic, but are much more interesting than a lot of the garbage being peddled.
The pioneer stories might seem simplistic, but are much more interesting than a lot of the garbage being peddled.
Henry Drummond | 9:12 a.m. July 23, 2008
I searched for the famous "this is the place" statement among the
contemporaneous records of the day and actually found two places where that
statement was made. Both were during the first ten days in the valley.
One was when several people wanted to explore beyond the Salt Lake Valley for a better location. Brigham was quoted as saying that they could explore all the wanted but in the end would find that "this is the place". He also made a similar statement when he indicated that "this is the place" where the temple would be built.
Wilford Woodruff's diary does not record the famous statement when Brigham Young looked out over the valley on July 24th however. He merely states that Brigham Young "expressed his entire satisfaction with the location". Perhaps that is why Wilford Woodruff in 1880 account possible combined these events together. Certainly looking over the valley and solemnly declaring "This is the Place" has a better ring to it that solemnly declaring "I am Entirely Satisfied with this Location". :)
Happy Pioneer day everyone.
One was when several people wanted to explore beyond the Salt Lake Valley for a better location. Brigham was quoted as saying that they could explore all the wanted but in the end would find that "this is the place". He also made a similar statement when he indicated that "this is the place" where the temple would be built.
Wilford Woodruff's diary does not record the famous statement when Brigham Young looked out over the valley on July 24th however. He merely states that Brigham Young "expressed his entire satisfaction with the location". Perhaps that is why Wilford Woodruff in 1880 account possible combined these events together. Certainly looking over the valley and solemnly declaring "This is the Place" has a better ring to it that solemnly declaring "I am Entirely Satisfied with this Location". :)
Happy Pioneer day everyone.
myth busters | 9:39 a.m. July 23, 2008
"Some myths" is an understatement. It's an odd situation when
you see someone bearing a testimony and crying about a story that you know to be
a myth. Do you tell them?
Pusey | 9:43 a.m. July 23, 2008
Excellent article. I hope more people will read it. My great-grandfather was
in the second company into the valley so I have grown up with all the
stories.
It is a proud story and of great inspiration. We however view it from our time and place. The fact is that was the way people travelled at that time. To understand what hardsip meant to them and what it means to us we need to know more about their time.
It is true, however, that this was a forced march and relocation of a whole people who would have rather have stayed where they were.
It is a proud story and of great inspiration. We however view it from our time and place. The fact is that was the way people travelled at that time. To understand what hardsip meant to them and what it means to us we need to know more about their time.
It is true, however, that this was a forced march and relocation of a whole people who would have rather have stayed where they were.
Golly Gee ! | 9:55 a.m. July 23, 2008
The whole LDS church based on one big myth. Why should we be surprised?
Randy | 10:48 a.m. July 23, 2008
The biggest myth is that these were "brave" Mormon pioneers. In fact,
they were running for their lives after getting their butts kicked across the
country for marrying other people's daughters to old men who already had
wives.
Thomas | 11:27 a.m. July 23, 2008
This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.
"Myth busters" -- Yes, I see a lot of that. Makes you wonder whether what people identify as "the Spirit" is as unmistakable a guide to truth as they make it out to be.
"Myth busters" -- Yes, I see a lot of that. Makes you wonder whether what people identify as "the Spirit" is as unmistakable a guide to truth as they make it out to be.
Barbara | 12:14 p.m. July 23, 2008
Myths abound about the westward trek of the mormon settlers .. what is true and
not true is hard to distinguish but my family's favorite story regards my
ancestor, Hilda. She was one of the original settlers of the Salt Lake valley
and was apparently a wonderful cook .. the early Mormon settlers were very
resourceful .. On the freezing trek over the mountains they had ran in to hard
times and clothing was at a premium .. they had no hats at all and were
freezing, literally. Hilda had a great idea and she took to cooking very small,
hot pies. She would take the pies and put one at each end of a strip and make
something along the shape of the headphones of today .. the heat from the pies
kept the settlers toasty and warm and enables them to make it across the Wasatch
and to "the place" .. this brilliant but simple idea of Hilda's
inadvertently earned the settlers the name that has stuck with them to this day
.. they were then and they still are, the orginal Pioneers.
No vacation | 12:14 p.m. July 23, 2008
Many may have a distorted view of the tragedy or sufferings, since they are
dwelt upon a lot.
However, as previously stated, this was NOT a vacation for anybody involved. Most of the participants, many of whom had emigrated from Europe, were NOT outdoors-people, but rather "city slickers." There weren't McDonalds and Taco Bells along the route, or nice showers and king mattresses at the end of a long, dusty day. It was their faith that motivated them, and buoyed their spirits. (Some folks don't understand that concept, to be sure.)
In the late 1850s, my great-great grandmother, at the age of 13, walked every step of the way from Genoa, Nebraska to Ogden, herding the family cow. Nowadays most 13-year-olds are yappin' on their cell phones and hanging out at the mall. Different times.
However, as previously stated, this was NOT a vacation for anybody involved. Most of the participants, many of whom had emigrated from Europe, were NOT outdoors-people, but rather "city slickers." There weren't McDonalds and Taco Bells along the route, or nice showers and king mattresses at the end of a long, dusty day. It was their faith that motivated them, and buoyed their spirits. (Some folks don't understand that concept, to be sure.)
In the late 1850s, my great-great grandmother, at the age of 13, walked every step of the way from Genoa, Nebraska to Ogden, herding the family cow. Nowadays most 13-year-olds are yappin' on their cell phones and hanging out at the mall. Different times.
History is, well.. | 12:41 p.m. July 23, 2008
History, real history, is well usually a little different than the Gerald Lund
type stories. In our case key pieces of our history are usually not discussed,
with the result being that we don't know some pretty important things. But
times are changing. The internet makes books written by pretty good historians
(inside and outside the church) available for reading. Comptons's "In
Sacred Lonliness", Bushman's "Rough Stone Rolling, Fawn
Brodie's "No Man Knows my History", Quinn's "Origins of
Power", Juanita Brooks book on the Mountain Meadows Murders, etc. The
result is alot more skepticism about the history we hear in seminary, gospel
doctrine classes, etc. Alot of people still only know the official versions of
key historical events, but it is changing. The new knowledge will eventually
require a more forthright discussion of doctrines and historical events. This
will undoubtedly lead to many people feeling uneasy, perhaps shake their faith.
It has mine. Weirdness I can deal with. Lying is harder for me. I hope we all
become more informed. Knowing what really happened ultimately will be a good
thing, at first it may hurt, but the truth is better than believing a lie.
LeeAnn | 1:15 p.m. July 23, 2008
As some stated above, we often look at the hardships the pioneers faced without
realizing that even the "city slickers" lives were fraught with what
we would term to be overwhelming hardships. Still, even the pioneers that came
after the original pioneers did not have an easy trip. Even today, the idea of
leaving everything known behind is a terrifying concept. Throw in the idea that
you may not have much to eat and that you cannot bring many things with you, and
many today would probably refuse. Even if not that many died, even one would be
a lot if it was your own child/father/mother.
Who skewed what? | 1:12 p.m. July 23, 2008
"Utahns today often skew our perception and understanding of the entire
history of what happened on the Mormon Trail by dwelling on the sufferings of a
few."
Is it just me, or has this been a recent thing? As I was growing up, I seldom heard about the Martin-Wiley handcart tragedy.
If anyone is "skewing" it's either the church, or the media, or both.
Is it just me, or has this been a recent thing? As I was growing up, I seldom heard about the Martin-Wiley handcart tragedy.
If anyone is "skewing" it's either the church, or the media, or both.
Matt | 1:21 p.m. July 23, 2008
It's good to see this organization admit that lies have been told over the
years. Kudos to the truth tellers!!!
Kevin Olson | 1:37 p.m. July 23, 2008
I don't know about you, but 111 days out on the range and 1,032 miles of
walking sounds like a blast to me!
And to think that they got to leave their old, dirty, brick homes for this adventure must have been a real joyous occasion.
And to think that they got to leave their old, dirty, brick homes for this adventure must have been a real joyous occasion.
Thomas | 1:58 p.m. July 23, 2008
There is way too much casual talk of "lies" thrown around these days.
Not all untruths are lies. Faith-promoting rumors and legends don't
necessarily start with someone making a story up out of whole cloth, with intent
to deceive. An old person might remember something from his youth through
rose-colored glasses; someone hearing him recount the tale may misunderstand his
words, taking something as literal that he meant figuratively, and so on.
Pretty soon, a mildly inspiring story turns into a full-scale Cecil B. DeMille
production -- and all without anyone ever consciously intending to deceive
anyone.
Accusing someone of lying is a serious attack on his character. It's the kind of thing that used to get people shot dead in duels. Now every keyboard-pecking thumbsucker in his mother's basement feels free to throw the "liar" charge around at the drop of a hat. It's a dang poor thing, if you ask me.
I still like the line from "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" I quoted above.
Accusing someone of lying is a serious attack on his character. It's the kind of thing that used to get people shot dead in duels. Now every keyboard-pecking thumbsucker in his mother's basement feels free to throw the "liar" charge around at the drop of a hat. It's a dang poor thing, if you ask me.
I still like the line from "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" I quoted above.
OMG That's Funny! | 2:03 p.m. July 23, 2008
To Barbara @12:14
I can't stop laughing about your story about "grandma Hilda" baking hot pies and wearing them as ear muffs as they crossed the Wasatch and that was how they became known as "pioneers." (At first I thought you were serious.) You belong on television!
I can't stop laughing about your story about "grandma Hilda" baking hot pies and wearing them as ear muffs as they crossed the Wasatch and that was how they became known as "pioneers." (At first I thought you were serious.) You belong on television!
Raymond Takashi Swenson | 3:05 p.m. July 23, 2008
The pioneers in the handcart companies that followed the disastrous Martin and
Willey companies in 1857 through 1860 were facing statistics that showed a much
higher mortality rate than was the case by 1869.
A "picnic" is a feast with all you can eat. The Marie Hafen account of the 1860 handcart trek tells of constantly being at the margins of their food supply, since they had to balance the amount of food they could pull against what they needed to eat during the journey. What the handcart pioneers did was a lot like being on the first few Space Shuttle missions after the Challenger blew up. You hope that lessons were learned, but you also know that the real lesson of that tragedy was that there are no guarantees.
Pioneering was easier when the Church started sending wagons and teams from Utah to Omaha to pick up people at the Council Bluffs railhead. After the Civil War, as the Union Pacific pushed west, there was a more permanent presence being established of trains and US Cavalry and settlements along the trails west. That was the safest time to be a pioneer.
A "picnic" is a feast with all you can eat. The Marie Hafen account of the 1860 handcart trek tells of constantly being at the margins of their food supply, since they had to balance the amount of food they could pull against what they needed to eat during the journey. What the handcart pioneers did was a lot like being on the first few Space Shuttle missions after the Challenger blew up. You hope that lessons were learned, but you also know that the real lesson of that tragedy was that there are no guarantees.
Pioneering was easier when the Church started sending wagons and teams from Utah to Omaha to pick up people at the Council Bluffs railhead. After the Civil War, as the Union Pacific pushed west, there was a more permanent presence being established of trains and US Cavalry and settlements along the trails west. That was the safest time to be a pioneer.
Do you have to die? | 3:16 p.m. July 23, 2008
Do you have to die to prove that it was a difficult trek. Why don't some of
you walk or ride in a wagon to let's pick Coalville.( Or is most cases your
nearest Wal-mart.) Then get on this site and tell us your vacation stories.
Modern Martyr | 3:54 p.m. July 23, 2008
Do you have any idea the hardships I've faced driving in rush hour on I-15
(without the pot pies on my head to keep my ears warm). Once, when the weather
was hot, my air conditioning didn't work. Those pioneers had it easy!
Do we try to make them more? | 4:56 p.m. July 23, 2008
Is it possible that we fabricate just a bit to make our ancestors seem more
heroic? Most pioneers probably didn't think they were doing anything that
exceptional, just traveling (or walking) like most people did at the time.
Except for the tragic Handcart companies, who truly suffered, the others
probably took the long trek pretty much in stride as a necessary means to a
desired end.
Anonymous | 5:33 p.m. July 23, 2008
I guess that mormons were the only ones who sacrificed and came westward? I
guess no other groups experienced hardhship? I guess no other groups have been
persecuted?
I really think you all are living in a dreamw orld. Um-teen times the mormon population has encountered similar circumstances. The difference is they have accepted, reconcilled and moved. I guess victimization and hardship are engrained so much in the culture that it will take many more generations to move on.
Anyway good luck with that moving on thingy but most of all Happy Mormon Quanza to you all.
I really think you all are living in a dreamw orld. Um-teen times the mormon population has encountered similar circumstances. The difference is they have accepted, reconcilled and moved. I guess victimization and hardship are engrained so much in the culture that it will take many more generations to move on.
Anyway good luck with that moving on thingy but most of all Happy Mormon Quanza to you all.
After reading | 5:37 p.m. July 23, 2008
After carefully reading this story, I think the National Park Service is pushing
a greater "myth" than any of the ones mentioned in the article. Not
one of those "myth busters" surprised me one bit--I can only think of
one of the myths that I've ever heard seriously told. Most of them are the
sort of variations that simply happen when different people describe the same
event after the fact.
Two years ago, I stood looking out over the hills of Herefordshire from Benbow's pond and was filled with awe that anyone from such a lovely area could bear to leave it--and every time I cross Nebraska, I am filled with appreciation at the courage it must have taken to walk farther and farther into the barrenness with faith as your only shield.
As a woman, I think of walking in long dresses during the HOT summer, of getting soaked during prairie storms, sleeping on the hard ground. Practical things like cooking with not enough food, having a period, bearing a child. Helping your tiny ones along. VACATION? HA!
My husband's families buried children at Winter Quarters and several family members in the Willie Company. NOT FUN!
Two years ago, I stood looking out over the hills of Herefordshire from Benbow's pond and was filled with awe that anyone from such a lovely area could bear to leave it--and every time I cross Nebraska, I am filled with appreciation at the courage it must have taken to walk farther and farther into the barrenness with faith as your only shield.
As a woman, I think of walking in long dresses during the HOT summer, of getting soaked during prairie storms, sleeping on the hard ground. Practical things like cooking with not enough food, having a period, bearing a child. Helping your tiny ones along. VACATION? HA!
My husband's families buried children at Winter Quarters and several family members in the Willie Company. NOT FUN!
Myth Buster | 6:16 p.m. July 23, 2008
Some myths accompany ALL LDS History! In fact, unless you have the rose-colored
glasses and are willing to say the emperor's new clothes are really
beautiful (you have a "testimony" of it), ALL LDS History is simply a
string of MYTHS!
kathyn to thomas 1:58 | 6:28 p.m. July 23, 2008
I agree with you. These are not lies the Church has made up to deceive people.
I have noticed that although this section is called MormonTimes.com, that many who really don't like the Church or its members use it as a forum to tell us all of the things they hate about the Church. If you don't like the LDS Church, that's just fine, but do you have to be so hateful about it? Go somewhere else and spew your venom and leave us alone.
I have read some of the diary entries of these pioneers and they did try to be cheerful and upbeat, but it still was a hard journey and I for one will not state that it was fun or easy. There's no way that was the case.
The decision to go west was not for gold or adventure, but rather for religious freedom.
I have noticed that although this section is called MormonTimes.com, that many who really don't like the Church or its members use it as a forum to tell us all of the things they hate about the Church. If you don't like the LDS Church, that's just fine, but do you have to be so hateful about it? Go somewhere else and spew your venom and leave us alone.
I have read some of the diary entries of these pioneers and they did try to be cheerful and upbeat, but it still was a hard journey and I for one will not state that it was fun or easy. There's no way that was the case.
The decision to go west was not for gold or adventure, but rather for religious freedom.
Leslie | 6:31 p.m. July 23, 2008
I love it 'Anon 5:13'... "Happy Mormon Quanza" back at ya! I
would love to chat more but I have an Ox cart I needing to get moving......
D. Michael Bass | 6:42 p.m. July 23, 2008
No way. There has never been any spin or myth assocaited with pioneers or Thee
Church. It's all fact.
smith | 6:46 p.m. July 23, 2008
there is more to life than all this LDS Crap!!!
Nature of Storytelling | 8:01 p.m. July 23, 2008
It's in the nature of ALL people and storytelling as a whole, especially
when the "core facts" are told and retold orally, for some
exaggerations and half-truths to enter. This is just as true of the Mormon
pioneers as it is of ancient Native American tribal accounts, stories of
American immigrant experiences, and the fact/fiction mix of the American
Conquest/Discovery (depending on whose viewpoint you buy into).
Interesting that the National Park Service states that the 1847 wagon trek was not a trial by fire. That, too, depends on perspective. Perhaps that particular journey was relatively safe and comfortable--especially in comparison to others--but the trial by fire involved years of enduring persecution and leaving possessions behind as well as any discomforts on the journey. So the "truth" on the issue of how a story is told can be very much a matter of perspective.
If anything in this article has shaken anyone's testimony, that testimony needs much deeper roots. That's about the long and the short of it.
Interesting that the National Park Service states that the 1847 wagon trek was not a trial by fire. That, too, depends on perspective. Perhaps that particular journey was relatively safe and comfortable--especially in comparison to others--but the trial by fire involved years of enduring persecution and leaving possessions behind as well as any discomforts on the journey. So the "truth" on the issue of how a story is told can be very much a matter of perspective.
If anything in this article has shaken anyone's testimony, that testimony needs much deeper roots. That's about the long and the short of it.
Hey Docent! | 8:02 p.m. July 23, 2008
How do you think people in the 1800's in England cooked? It was over fires!
Hearth fire, camp fire- the only difference is lack of bricks, and the pioneers
had rocks.
Maybe you ought to brush up on your history a bit more...
Maybe you ought to brush up on your history a bit more...
Danite | 8:05 p.m. July 23, 2008
No vacation:
In fact, most of the European settlers worked much harder trying to make a living in Europe, and they did regard the trek as a pleasant diversion. Long days driving a wagon or walking over the grassy plains beat working in a Scottish coal mine by a long way.
It's true that people died on the trip, but it's also true that people were more likely to die in the 19th century wherever they were, but particularly in the crowded cities which lacked modern sanitation. There weren't Taco Bells in Dresden or Edinburg either, so their absence on the prairie was probably not a considerable hardship to my ancestors as it is to modern Mormon teenagers who play trek for three days and think they've internalized the experience of the 19th century. Years from now, they'll tell their kids about the deprivation of running out of Snickers bars halfway through the weekend.
All suffering is comparative. The pioneers had never become accustomed to indoor plumbing, HVAC, or traveling by minivan on interstate roads. They typically walked wherever they needed to go. Don't cling to your mythology. The truth is much more interesting.
In fact, most of the European settlers worked much harder trying to make a living in Europe, and they did regard the trek as a pleasant diversion. Long days driving a wagon or walking over the grassy plains beat working in a Scottish coal mine by a long way.
It's true that people died on the trip, but it's also true that people were more likely to die in the 19th century wherever they were, but particularly in the crowded cities which lacked modern sanitation. There weren't Taco Bells in Dresden or Edinburg either, so their absence on the prairie was probably not a considerable hardship to my ancestors as it is to modern Mormon teenagers who play trek for three days and think they've internalized the experience of the 19th century. Years from now, they'll tell their kids about the deprivation of running out of Snickers bars halfway through the weekend.
All suffering is comparative. The pioneers had never become accustomed to indoor plumbing, HVAC, or traveling by minivan on interstate roads. They typically walked wherever they needed to go. Don't cling to your mythology. The truth is much more interesting.
C.L.Nelson | 8:38 p.m. July 23, 2008
I truly immortalize and recognize the true sufferings of our early pioneer
saints! Why after 161 years do people decide to "change" history? I
hiked and walked the trail of the early pioneers! What spirit! What faith! Our
generation has had it so good that we have become comfortable and rather lazy!
At least families were closely knit to endure such hardships! Nowadays mom and
dad have to make the ever ending buck to "have!" There's no
excuse for children running the streets to find something to do and then parents
wonder why their own kids are making bad choices! I salute the early pioneers
for their humble dedication to families! Certainly we lack this attribute to
nourish our own?
Joe | 9:07 p.m. July 23, 2008
First, people forget that the first pioneer groups weren't running from
Nauvoo. Most had stayed in Nebraska for well over a year.
Second, I have ancestors from the original journey, the Mormon Batallion and a handcart company. Those in the handcart company did record in their journals how much they enjoyed it.
Third, one reason for the disaster of the Willey and Martin handcart companies were that both men ignored the advise of church leaders. They also got separated from the wagon train because they got arrogant and traveled ahead of it. This was an example of human folly and should be treated as such.
Finally, the Mormon migration was one of the most successful in the history of man! This should be celebrated and due accolades given to Brigham Young. The death rate of Mormons was MUCH smaller than that of the Oregon trail and arguably even lower than that of people living on the frontier.
Second, I have ancestors from the original journey, the Mormon Batallion and a handcart company. Those in the handcart company did record in their journals how much they enjoyed it.
Third, one reason for the disaster of the Willey and Martin handcart companies were that both men ignored the advise of church leaders. They also got separated from the wagon train because they got arrogant and traveled ahead of it. This was an example of human folly and should be treated as such.
Finally, the Mormon migration was one of the most successful in the history of man! This should be celebrated and due accolades given to Brigham Young. The death rate of Mormons was MUCH smaller than that of the Oregon trail and arguably even lower than that of people living on the frontier.
Jason | 9:09 p.m. July 23, 2008
There is pretty good evidence that the current site of the Martin handcart
monument in Wyoming is at least 60 miles too far west. Absolutely no artifacts
supporting the historicity of the site have been found. None. It's a total
con job by myth pushers at the LDS church.
Lenny | 9:54 p.m. July 23, 2008
It has been some good readin' but I gots me ox carts to pull. Peace out
bros and sis's.
Another Joe | 10:02 p.m. July 23, 2008
Thank you all of you mythbusters who take the opportunity to point our what you
consider myths or flaws in our understanding of Mormon history. If only you had
pointed these things out to us earlier, before we became so deluded.
Seriously, all 8 of my great grandparents walked/rode across the plains. My father's grandfather was 12 at the time and he said that he had a good time. What do you know...he was 12.
It is true that many companies of pioneers left at a reasonable time and traveled to Salt Lake without major incident. Does that lessen their sacrifice or their dedication? The church leaders were not trying to put the member's lives in peril.
Then there is my great great grandfather who lost his son before the Willey company left, survived the experience on the trail, arriving in Provo, lost his wife and another child, and then marched back to Ohio and eventually joined the RLDS Church. Perhaps his story is the one that the mythbusters would prefer to focus upon. That's fine, except most of his children ended up in Utah as members of the LDS Church.
Seriously, all 8 of my great grandparents walked/rode across the plains. My father's grandfather was 12 at the time and he said that he had a good time. What do you know...he was 12.
It is true that many companies of pioneers left at a reasonable time and traveled to Salt Lake without major incident. Does that lessen their sacrifice or their dedication? The church leaders were not trying to put the member's lives in peril.
Then there is my great great grandfather who lost his son before the Willey company left, survived the experience on the trail, arriving in Provo, lost his wife and another child, and then marched back to Ohio and eventually joined the RLDS Church. Perhaps his story is the one that the mythbusters would prefer to focus upon. That's fine, except most of his children ended up in Utah as members of the LDS Church.
Love thy brother | 10:03 p.m. July 23, 2008
Jason please refrain and pray on it. What you may think is a myth will become
reality one you have prayed and the holy spirit is acknowledged. My friend you
just need a little faith and need to stop beind such an anti.
pickleweedpete | 10:03 p.m. July 23, 2008
And virtually the only part of the "Mormon" Trail of 1847 that was
actually broken by the first Saints to arrive in the Salt Lake Valley was the
last half mile or so at the bottom of Emigration Canyon. The rest was scouted,
marked, and cleared (at great cost; remember the Donner Party) by earlier groups
of pioneers.
Starla | 10:23 p.m. July 23, 2008
You want to experience a rough road? Try moving in among a bunch of LDS when
you aren't one of them. The trek is hard. And I even like most of them
I've been introduced to, but I learned early on not to expect any of them
treating me like I belong.
whoops | 11:36 p.m. July 23, 2008
And the National Park Service is renown for historical accuracy???? After
traveling 1032 miles they had to do what? Plant food for the following
"adventurers". So, why not an experiment, plant some wheat tomorrow.
See how well it grows in 95 degree heat. Oh, get the water out of city creek
not your home faucet. All "adventurers" Mormon and Non-mormon had it
harder than we can understand. BTW, the Donner "adventurers" that
preceded the Mormons through the valley didn't participate in cannibalism
either, which is also some of the new history.... Give me a break,
"new" history is always fiction. It just isn't as interesting to
read as Mr. Lunds.
Chris from Lubbock, TX | 9:10 a.m. July 24, 2008
It's unfortunate that some chose these forums as a venue to attack
people's beliefs. Since it's something that you don't
understand, why don't you just leave well enough alone-- live and let live?
(Notice, I DIDN'T say, "If you don't like Utah, then
leave.") Apparently, one's faith can be very threatening to others,
but I don't understand why the feeling to attack others. Why not just let
it pass? Why take the time to read something like this if that's the
feeling? (And please don't tell me that you're tired of Utah Mormons
pushing things on you-- I grew up in Utah and lived a few other places, and
those who resent Utah Mormons have a lot bigger problems that they should try to
work out before criticizing the Mormons! Utah's not that strange!)
anonymous | 9:25 a.m. July 24, 2008
As far as the sacrifice of the pioneers and the "myths," none of those
mentioned came as a big surprise to me. I think that anyone who believes these
hasn't been paying close attention. Last, while many of the experiences of
the pioneers were common to the time, I think we should all remember the
significance of leaving one's home. It's a powerful sense to have a
place of one's own, and to leave that for one's faith in God is
significant, even if the day-to-day activities weren't far from what they
would have been doing anyway. All Utahns whould be grateful that the pioneers
didn't take the easy way out by staying where they were.
Another Joe | 9:47 a.m. July 24, 2008
One of the genius moves of Brigham Young was to refer to the displaced Mormon
people as "pioneers" rather than "refugees." Like one of
the earlier prophets said "we left of our own free will and choice because
they made us."
Thank goodness we have Pioneer Days, instead of Refugee Days.
Thank goodness we have Pioneer Days, instead of Refugee Days.
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I've been an active reader and participant in Utah history for over 60 years and have never even heard about 2/3 of what you term "popular" beliefs.
"Historians" and journalists seem to think their agendas and biases are the norm.