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Witness list released for Senate polygamy hearing
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Why not me | 1:21 p.m. July 21, 2008
Like many Utahn's I don't have a law degree, don't practice or
officially fight polygamy, don't find polygamy anywhere in my background,
have not dated or married a relative, am not FLDS or LDS or any 'DS ...
okay, so there aren't many of us afterall ... but I'm as capable and
qualified to be on this panel as those chosen.
Thomas | 1:29 p.m. July 21, 2008
Orin Hatch is shading the truth. I definately sent him an e-mail. Irregardless
of who is telling the truth, fair play stibilates that you invite both sides.
Mesage to reality check: Throughout this debacle it was the FLDS who told the
truth and it was CPS who was lying. The CPS claimed that 31 out of girls 12-17
had been or were pregnant only to see this list dwindle to 4 or 5.
Comments continue below
thomas | 1:32 p.m. July 21, 2008
above comment should read 31 out of 53 girls.
realitycheckneedsarealitycheck | 2:04 p.m. July 21, 2008
I can't think of anyone, anywhere, who, if someone where striving to
prosecute them would not want to represent themselves in some form or another.
The fact that the FLDS were not chosen shows that those who did the choosing
have an agenda and want to hide it. Any TRUE American should be questioning
there motives. How many of us would like similar circumstances, just because
people full of hate are the only ones who have been telling the stories, it
seems to be that that is all we want to belevie, is that people are bad. It is
time for the FLDS to speak out and for others to allow them the opportunity.
realitycheck | 2:09 p.m. July 21, 2008
re - Thomas
you actually believe that CPS lied and FLDS told the truth? lol - care for some land in Florida? And you think that FLDS members would be good witnesses? They will either lie or send the few people that are uniquely unlike the average FLDS....
you actually believe that CPS lied and FLDS told the truth? lol - care for some land in Florida? And you think that FLDS members would be good witnesses? They will either lie or send the few people that are uniquely unlike the average FLDS....
so sad | 2:29 p.m. July 21, 2008
I think it is so sad that reality check refuses to give the benefit of the
doubt. Apparently all he (probably she) listens to is the lies....I would like
to know if she ever has even talked with an FLDS person to see for herself if
they are liers or not.
satoia | 2:34 p.m. July 21, 2008
re- realitycheck
you forgot that these ex-FLDS members are the liars. You also forgot that this IS actually AMERICA and that we are SUPPOSED to have FREEDOM of RELIGION. It doesn't say in there "if the government likes it." Plus, don't forget that Texas changed the law specifically to make a problem for the FLDS. The person who pushed for the law to change the age of legal marriage ADMITTED to that. So I suppose you may be related to all these lawmakers that should be called lawbreakers because they are constituion breakers. Do you know what the constitution says or are you one who thinks the constitution is exempt? I wonder......
you forgot that these ex-FLDS members are the liars. You also forgot that this IS actually AMERICA and that we are SUPPOSED to have FREEDOM of RELIGION. It doesn't say in there "if the government likes it." Plus, don't forget that Texas changed the law specifically to make a problem for the FLDS. The person who pushed for the law to change the age of legal marriage ADMITTED to that. So I suppose you may be related to all these lawmakers that should be called lawbreakers because they are constituion breakers. Do you know what the constitution says or are you one who thinks the constitution is exempt? I wonder......
Factually accurate | 3:22 p.m. July 21, 2008
but, in reality, a deceitful lie
Texas did change the law to prevent the FLDS from forcing young girls into arranged marriages.
But, Texas changed the law to prevent FLDS parents and leaders from abusing their own children, not because Texas was trying to restrict the religious freedom of the FLDS.
If the FLDS didn't like the law, they were free to try to get it changed, or to move to another state that allowed such marriages.
They DID NOT have a right to simply ignore the law because they didn't agree with it.
(Show me where that is in the Constitution.)
It's time the FLDS learned that they aren't above the law and they have NO RIGHT to pick and choose which laws they're willing to obey, and which laws they're going to ignore.
Texas did change the law to prevent the FLDS from forcing young girls into arranged marriages.
But, Texas changed the law to prevent FLDS parents and leaders from abusing their own children, not because Texas was trying to restrict the religious freedom of the FLDS.
If the FLDS didn't like the law, they were free to try to get it changed, or to move to another state that allowed such marriages.
They DID NOT have a right to simply ignore the law because they didn't agree with it.
(Show me where that is in the Constitution.)
It's time the FLDS learned that they aren't above the law and they have NO RIGHT to pick and choose which laws they're willing to obey, and which laws they're going to ignore.
Loyd | 3:32 p.m. July 21, 2008
FLDS religion is based on total lies. They only make up stuff about God to
ensure themselves that it's alright to commit adultery.
GAL50 | 3:40 p.m. July 21, 2008
Although I rarely support the FLDS, I am in favor of letting Rod Parker and
Willie Jessop testify. With two people testifying for the FLDS and quite a few
against, it still wouldn't be a balanced situation but it would at least
begin to approach fairness.
Many of the horrors of the FLDS are not crimes but are just as bad as crimes. Obedience,indoctrination, forcing people to follow the will of the leader, splitting up and reassigning families, ex-communicating people based solely on whether the leader likes them, forced marriage, early termination of education, teaching that outsiders are wicked, control over many aspects of life etc.
The history of the FLDS is that it has committed maybe one crime of significance - statutory rape associated with forced marriage of underage girls. Not many seem to care about the crime of polygamy. The other crimes such as misuse of funds seems to be new to Warren Jeffs. It seems that Willie Jessop has gained some control and it doesn't appear that he'll support forced underage marriage.
It seems the FLDS wants to be its own tiny country with disregard to the laws of the U.S. and that should stop.
Many of the horrors of the FLDS are not crimes but are just as bad as crimes. Obedience,indoctrination, forcing people to follow the will of the leader, splitting up and reassigning families, ex-communicating people based solely on whether the leader likes them, forced marriage, early termination of education, teaching that outsiders are wicked, control over many aspects of life etc.
The history of the FLDS is that it has committed maybe one crime of significance - statutory rape associated with forced marriage of underage girls. Not many seem to care about the crime of polygamy. The other crimes such as misuse of funds seems to be new to Warren Jeffs. It seems that Willie Jessop has gained some control and it doesn't appear that he'll support forced underage marriage.
It seems the FLDS wants to be its own tiny country with disregard to the laws of the U.S. and that should stop.
choice2 | 4:04 p.m. July 21, 2008
I don't know that testifying before the Senate for the purpose of
getting the FLDS side of the issues presented is the best avenue.
The primary outcome of having Senate hearings will have been to increase the importance of media presentation.
The Senate has decided not to let these things play out in the court system.
There will be a spotlight on all of this whether FLDS testifies or not.
I think the mountainous slant under which these proceedings are being structured makes it pretty clear what the Senators desired outcome is.
FLDS would be better served to prepare a presentation designed for the public.
It's pretty much known what the individuals that are scheduled to testify will say.
A major news network (perhaps Fox?)would have huge viewer numbers for such a event.
I believe this would have a greater effect on the outcome of the proceedings than testifying.
The primary outcome of having Senate hearings will have been to increase the importance of media presentation.
The Senate has decided not to let these things play out in the court system.
There will be a spotlight on all of this whether FLDS testifies or not.
I think the mountainous slant under which these proceedings are being structured makes it pretty clear what the Senators desired outcome is.
FLDS would be better served to prepare a presentation designed for the public.
It's pretty much known what the individuals that are scheduled to testify will say.
A major news network (perhaps Fox?)would have huge viewer numbers for such a event.
I believe this would have a greater effect on the outcome of the proceedings than testifying.
realitycheck | 5:12 p.m. July 21, 2008
I stand corrected. Let all the FLDS testify. I shouldn't just arbitrarily
call them all liars. My bad.
I guess I'm still mad that they got away with murdering hundreds of innocent dogs simply because the "prophet" told them to. And I have a real problem with parents turning their children into little religious drones.
But hey - to each their own. They're your kids and your dogs. Train them and murder them - not my business. Right? (That's pretty much what you've been saying - none of my business.) Guess the kids will have to stick up for their little selves and tell their parents "no, I don't want to be a drone". (That would go over real well...) And I guess the dogs they got what they deserved. Right?
I'd say they were all related to Michael Vick, but they're racists so that wouldn't make any sense.
I guess I'm still mad that they got away with murdering hundreds of innocent dogs simply because the "prophet" told them to. And I have a real problem with parents turning their children into little religious drones.
But hey - to each their own. They're your kids and your dogs. Train them and murder them - not my business. Right? (That's pretty much what you've been saying - none of my business.) Guess the kids will have to stick up for their little selves and tell their parents "no, I don't want to be a drone". (That would go over real well...) And I guess the dogs they got what they deserved. Right?
I'd say they were all related to Michael Vick, but they're racists so that wouldn't make any sense.
ElRon | 5:49 p.m. July 21, 2008
re: reality check
DUDE, get a LIFE.
Don't you have anything better to do than sit and hack people simply because you don't like them?
Why don't you take the time to contribute to a discussion in a responsible fashion?? Your comments are at best baseless, fear/hate filled"TRASH".
DUDE, get a LIFE.
Don't you have anything better to do than sit and hack people simply because you don't like them?
Why don't you take the time to contribute to a discussion in a responsible fashion?? Your comments are at best baseless, fear/hate filled"TRASH".
JustTheFacts | 9:01 p.m. July 21, 2008
Pregnancy tests don't lie, realitycheck.
Witch hunters do.
Witch hunters do.
zxcvbnm | 9:05 p.m. July 21, 2008
What a fun hearing......Carolyn and Flora will autograph copies of "Escape" then charge $19.95 for the copies.
The various attorney generals will complain about not being able to jail church members because they are to smart to be caught.......not because they are innocent.
The Texas attorney general will explain how brave Texas was in conducting a raid on women and children in violation of its own laws after it got a call from a nut. texas will explain how hard it is to get legitimate evidence after four years of listening to their informant. Texas will explain how 37 year old women are able to be teenagers.
Texas will explain how a 16 year old pregnant teen isn't pregnant and is in fact a virgin.
And last but not least Texas will explain how the only "suspect" in anything sits in a jail several hundred miles away convicted of performing a Church wedding in which both parties said yes.
Yep, It will be an interesting show......bring the popcorn and your checkbooks to pay the expenses of the "expert" witnesses.
Oh yes.........I bet big Willie will stare too........lol
WITCH-HUNT | 9:31 p.m. July 21, 2008
99 % SIMILARITIES
(X) SALEM WITCH-HUNT TRIALS INVOLVED [TEENAGERS PRACTICING WITCHCRAFT/SEX]:[BEHAVIORAL] TEEN-AGERS.
(X) TEXAS WITCH-HUNT-LIKE, POLYGAMY WITCH-HUNT TRIALS INVOLVE [TEENAGERS PRACTICING RELIGION/SEX]: [BEHAVIORAL] TEENAGERS.
CLAIMS AND DISCLAIMERS AS PREVIOUSLY POSTED
SIGNED RECKIPS
(X) SALEM WITCH-HUNT TRIALS INVOLVED [TEENAGERS PRACTICING WITCHCRAFT/SEX]:[BEHAVIORAL] TEEN-AGERS.
(X) TEXAS WITCH-HUNT-LIKE, POLYGAMY WITCH-HUNT TRIALS INVOLVE [TEENAGERS PRACTICING RELIGION/SEX]: [BEHAVIORAL] TEENAGERS.
CLAIMS AND DISCLAIMERS AS PREVIOUSLY POSTED
SIGNED RECKIPS
CASA | 9:33 p.m. July 21, 2008
CASA FAILED AND THE ATTORNEY FOR THE TEENAGER OF THIS CASE FAILED: (A) TO
DEFEND, (B) TO PROTECT, AND (C) TO PROMOTE:
(X) THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF TEENAGERS TO MARRY... (NOT AS A FALLACY)
(X) THE TEENAGER FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO MARRY... (NOT AS A FALLACY)
CLAIMS AND DISCLAIMERS AS PREVIOUSLY POSTED
SIGNED RECKIPS
(X) THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS OF TEENAGERS TO MARRY... (NOT AS A FALLACY)
(X) THE TEENAGER FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT TO MARRY... (NOT AS A FALLACY)
CLAIMS AND DISCLAIMERS AS PREVIOUSLY POSTED
SIGNED RECKIPS
DAMAGE | 9:34 p.m. July 21, 2008
CASA AND THE ATTORNEY MAY HAVE:
(A) VIOLATED, (B) BREACHED, AND (C) DAMAGED THE TEENAGER:
(1) CLIENT-ATTORNEY PRIVILEDGE, AND
(2) RIGHT OF PRIVACY
CLAIMS AND DISCLAIMERS AS PREVIOUSLY POSTED
SIGNED RECKIPS
realitycheck | 12:49 p.m. July 22, 2008
re - EIRon 5:49pm
I guess I'm confused, since I didn't say anything incorrect. Did they not murder all the dogs in Colorado City because Jeffs told them to? I've heard it, I've read it, and no one from FLDS has ever denied it (plus it makes sense given Jeffs need to be in control.) So - you saying it never happened, Ron? Because after several years, that would be the first time anyone denied it - it's actually well documented.
And do the FLDS not turn their children into super religious little ones? Everything you hear about FLDS has to do with religion. Even their website that had the children's schedule had many many hours of scripture and religious training - far more than anything else. So is this incorrect?
You may not like what I say about the FLDS, but none of it is false. You just don't like the way I say it. Well, too bad. The truth isn't always pretty...
I guess I'm confused, since I didn't say anything incorrect. Did they not murder all the dogs in Colorado City because Jeffs told them to? I've heard it, I've read it, and no one from FLDS has ever denied it (plus it makes sense given Jeffs need to be in control.) So - you saying it never happened, Ron? Because after several years, that would be the first time anyone denied it - it's actually well documented.
And do the FLDS not turn their children into super religious little ones? Everything you hear about FLDS has to do with religion. Even their website that had the children's schedule had many many hours of scripture and religious training - far more than anything else. So is this incorrect?
You may not like what I say about the FLDS, but none of it is false. You just don't like the way I say it. Well, too bad. The truth isn't always pretty...
ElRon | 6:17 p.m. July 23, 2008
re:realitycheck You said: "why would they bother inviting current FLDS
members? They will tell the panel whatever Willie and company tell them too.
It's not like we can believe them."
"Jeff's daughter has been lying to the court for months - why would the others be any different?"
"you actually believe that CPS lied and FLDS told the truth?"And you think that FLDS members would be good witnesses? They will either lie or send the few people that are uniquely unlike the average FLDS...."
"And do the FLDS not turn their children into super religious little ones?"
---------------------------------------------------
You post as if you KNOW what your talking about; but you don't. These are your OPINIONS that seem to be based on sensationalized media stories and books written by "anti-FLDS" people. Do you honestly believe every book you read? Carolyns own Son said she admitted that ONLY 30% of her book is factual. "Under The Banner of Heaven" is a NOVEL. It IS documented that Flora Mae habitually LIES. I really would like to see some sort of "documeted" evidence as you say, of the above statements. Put-UP or Shut-UP.
"Jeff's daughter has been lying to the court for months - why would the others be any different?"
"you actually believe that CPS lied and FLDS told the truth?"And you think that FLDS members would be good witnesses? They will either lie or send the few people that are uniquely unlike the average FLDS...."
"And do the FLDS not turn their children into super religious little ones?"
---------------------------------------------------
You post as if you KNOW what your talking about; but you don't. These are your OPINIONS that seem to be based on sensationalized media stories and books written by "anti-FLDS" people. Do you honestly believe every book you read? Carolyns own Son said she admitted that ONLY 30% of her book is factual. "Under The Banner of Heaven" is a NOVEL. It IS documented that Flora Mae habitually LIES. I really would like to see some sort of "documeted" evidence as you say, of the above statements. Put-UP or Shut-UP.
ElRon | 6:39 p.m. July 23, 2008
re: realitycheck
It seems that you are accusing the FLDS of the very thing Flora and Carolyn have habitually done "on record" which is outright LIE for no other reason than self-justification. Your posts are proving how little you actually seem to know about the culture and people.
It seems that you are accusing the FLDS of the very thing Flora and Carolyn have habitually done "on record" which is outright LIE for no other reason than self-justification. Your posts are proving how little you actually seem to know about the culture and people.
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Jeff's daughter has been lying to the court for months - why would the others be any different?