Reader comments
Little redress available for 'support' spouses
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awesomeron | 3:57 a.m. July 21, 2008
If a person puts another person through School at the Cost of their own
Education then it is their own fault. In reality they have traded their
education and career opportunities for consolation prize of being supported.
This is their choice. During the time of work and struggle and barely if not
making ends meet, there usually comes Children. No matter how little time there
appears to be there is always time for that. By the time the person getting the
Education gets finished. He/She has far surpassed the person supporting them and
functions on a whole different social experience. In short the are "No
Longer Equally Yoked." Sometimes there are other reasons as in the Educated
person does not want to pay the Bill. The other person is considered "to
old for college" and then there�s the Children. Also
the Reality my set in that the reason for going to College was to find a
Husband/Wife. The Eternal Marriage has become the Eternal Buffet. Age and
Attitude towards life and how the uneducated person handles the Social Reality
and is viewed by the Educated Persons Peers. Like the Lawyer Lady said Get it in
writing.
Ronald A. Young | 4:09 a.m. July 21, 2008
It seems to be almost like cheating. Saying you are going to support the other
person and then when the time comes not doing so. Sweetheart Letters from the
Mission Field do not a contract make. Just a way to pass the time on P Day and
hope and dream about what is going to happen after the Mission. Same thing
happens to People in the Service. Or for that matter away at College. Now with
the invention of the Cell Phone there is No Break. How do you meet new people
when the old people keep calling you, and if they don't answer they get in
the Car to come check on them. Or call the institute and have them checked on.
Also some parents won't support their kids through School if they get
Married. In a faith group where there is No Single Sex or Sex Before Marriage
that could make a person 27 or 28 before having Sex and that is way abnormal.
Add 3 years more if we are talking about a female. So people Merry Struggle and
then grow apart. Legal agreements are always in Writing.
Comments continue below
jdegaston@yahoo.com | 4:32 a.m. July 21, 2008
Because of the high divorce rates, I have seen that spouses are not as
willing to invest in the other spouse's education. Instead both spouses go
to school and they go deeper in debt, with a greater likelihood of financial
stress and divorce. It would be good public policy to give greater protection to
the spouse who helps the other one get an advanced degree. Jackie de Gaston
It's Utah for you-- | 6:00 a.m. July 21, 2008
Sometimes there is no justice. This marriage must have been in trouble long
before the actual divorce. It isn't fair for the supported spouse to walk
away after the investment of all the sacrifices of the working wife. The courts
are not the place for change. It lies in the legislative system. Who advocates
for cases such as this? By rights, what should happen is for the now
"Dr" husband to make amends and put the wife through school for her to
be compensated. Why did he wait so long to walk away? It is obvious. Last I
knew Utah is not a "community property" state either. See how behind
the laws are? It is a sad commentary. There appears to be biases in favor of
men, but who would admit it, the lawmakers? Yeah, right. Then, there are those
"dead beat" dad's too. I would only hope this wife gets some
kind of alimony to help her get ahead. Morally that is the RIGHT thing to do,
but who said it was enforceable? Maybe she could go to law school and become an
advocate for women's divorce rights....Good luck with the civil suit
sweetie.
too bad so sad | 6:28 a.m. July 21, 2008
OH bother get married stay married or don't get married at all. Like
married couples draw up contracts. give me a break, that's one foot out the
door already.
SLC gal | 7:11 a.m. July 21, 2008
So he left her right after he finished Medical school? How do you spell U-S-E-D?
When you're married, it makes sense that you sacrifice for both your goods.
He should not get off scott free for that. No one that does that should!!!
Observer | 7:18 a.m. July 21, 2008
When you live in a society where individuals are so self absorbed and value
money, fame, success, power, career and celebrity above all else, what do you
expect to happen?
Utah is behind | 7:54 a.m. July 21, 2008
They don't even realize how discriminatory they are to married women.
It's in lots of ways. When we moved here from CA several years ago - the
mortgage agent didn't bother to run my credit and put my name on all the
paperwork. He quit-claimed me on to the deed afterwards. He didn't ask us
if that would be ok, and we didn't find out until we went to the escrow
office to sign the stack of papers. So my name wasn't on the mortgage, and
the mortgage company wouldn't talk to me when I needed to make sure
they'd received our payment. I was so mad - I'm the one who takes
care of the bills and everything. We've since moved again - you can bet it
didn't happen again but that's ridiculous.
A wife who puts her husband through college and then is immediately divorced has been had - and the courts should help.
A wife who puts her husband through college and then is immediately divorced has been had - and the courts should help.
Is Trust Antiquated? | 8:30 a.m. July 21, 2008
In a society where vows, covenants, and promises are considered superfluous, we
will continue to live with broken hearts and high rates of divorce. Until the
courts recognize that promises made in a marriage are as binding as written
contracts, families will suffer. Until churches, professions, and employers
frown upon those who do not honor their marriage vows, these unjust practices
will continue. One who earns a professional degree - but has not the integrity
to keep the sacred vows and promises made in a marriage - may be financially
wealthy but a mere pauper in character value. The spouse who maintains her
integrity and her dignity in the face of evil can enjoy peace, even in a broken
heart.
Rob | 8:33 a.m. July 21, 2008
That is sad that someone can get left out in the cold like that. It is way past
time to change the laws on this. Supporting someone through college has value.
David Smith | 8:38 a.m. July 21, 2008
I ended up paying alimony despite that I consistently requested that my
ex-spouse go to school and pursue her dreams. She was always asking what I
thought, hoping that I would say, "You should stay home with the kids and
let me go to school." I never said that and even went to class for her
before she dropped out.
Despite all that, I'm paying alimony. As soon as I finished my Masters degree, she asked for a divorce. There is another side here. That is the side that is looking for a free ticket and one that the court system should evaluate. A lot of educated, higher earning women and men are being taken advantage of by spouses who refuse to go to school and then divorce expecting a payout.
If someone refuses to pursue a career and either tries to leave and sue or otherwise, that's their problem.
I had a friend (male), who worked very hard, high school graduate who ended up making pretty good money despite the fact he had no additional education. As soon as he started making money, his wife divorced him so she could get as much as possible.
Despite all that, I'm paying alimony. As soon as I finished my Masters degree, she asked for a divorce. There is another side here. That is the side that is looking for a free ticket and one that the court system should evaluate. A lot of educated, higher earning women and men are being taken advantage of by spouses who refuse to go to school and then divorce expecting a payout.
If someone refuses to pursue a career and either tries to leave and sue or otherwise, that's their problem.
I had a friend (male), who worked very hard, high school graduate who ended up making pretty good money despite the fact he had no additional education. As soon as he started making money, his wife divorced him so she could get as much as possible.
Hatuletoh | 9:13 a.m. July 21, 2008
Woe to the man or woman who forgets that the fundamental earthly nature of a
marriage is a business arrangement. It always has been, we've just
forgotten.
Debbie | 9:33 a.m. July 21, 2008
Of course few couples think about prenuptial agreements because it seems to
imply lack of trust in the relationship which they believe will last forever.
This applies to all financial aspects. It may make sense, but many argue this
smacks of planned divorce. "What do you mean you don't trust me to
provide, etc."
There should be enough evidence in the facts. Tax returns, income verification, who paid the bills, who attended school, at what cost was the education? This alone should be adequate to prove the verbal agreement. Making the assumption it is the woman, as it most often is, the husband/graduate should be expected to pay the way for the wife to complete her education to the same level if that is desired, including child care so that the spouse can then "get back on her feet" at an equal footing to his, should she desire this. If she decides to be a teacher instead of a doctor, that's fine, but he should pay the way for her to accomplish this, even at this later date, so she too can have a career that brings her satisfaction and joy just as he has. Laws/decisions should reflect this.
There should be enough evidence in the facts. Tax returns, income verification, who paid the bills, who attended school, at what cost was the education? This alone should be adequate to prove the verbal agreement. Making the assumption it is the woman, as it most often is, the husband/graduate should be expected to pay the way for the wife to complete her education to the same level if that is desired, including child care so that the spouse can then "get back on her feet" at an equal footing to his, should she desire this. If she decides to be a teacher instead of a doctor, that's fine, but he should pay the way for her to accomplish this, even at this later date, so she too can have a career that brings her satisfaction and joy just as he has. Laws/decisions should reflect this.
A Man Speaking to Other Men | 9:34 a.m. July 21, 2008
The only people who REALLY know what a divorce is actually about are the two
people involved. Of course, most will not reveal their own contribution to the
breakup, but the truth is they are usually BOTH at fault. Sorting that out is
not easy. Nobody has anything to gain from admitting the truth.
Having said that, it is also the case the MOST of the time the WIFE is the one who works to support the HUSBAND through school, and most of the time it is the WIFE who gets left on the curb when the husband gets the parchment and starts making good money!
This is because most men are such selfish, unethical jerks! (Don't get mad at me, I'm just telling you what the statistics say!)
If men had any honor and decency at all, THEY would make sure the person they have exploited is taken care of! Anyone who fails to do that is less than vermin in my opinion.
Having said that, it is also the case the MOST of the time the WIFE is the one who works to support the HUSBAND through school, and most of the time it is the WIFE who gets left on the curb when the husband gets the parchment and starts making good money!
This is because most men are such selfish, unethical jerks! (Don't get mad at me, I'm just telling you what the statistics say!)
If men had any honor and decency at all, THEY would make sure the person they have exploited is taken care of! Anyone who fails to do that is less than vermin in my opinion.
david smith | 9:36 a.m. July 21, 2008
You never know what the one in education went through. Plust the fact he's
probably 250,000 in debt. I think this article is bunk and un-objective.
I'd like to hear his side to the story. Maybe she's been a complete
pain in the neck, making his life a living world of domination and hate. Utah
women need to get off their reclining leather sofas and work like Eve did. When
God said by the sweat of thy brow thou shalt eat bread, he wasn't just
talking to Adam. If she would have treated him a little nicer nd quit blaming
all her problems on him and pursue her own education, she would have been much
better off. Let her learn from her mistakes as opposed to taking it to the Utah
valley authority.
Life's changed | 9:41 a.m. July 21, 2008
It seems 30+ years ago it was the "norm" for women to stay home to
nurture the children and tend the home fires; and men to go to college and bring
home the financial support for a family. Times have changed. Women need an
education, perhaps even more so than men, as they seem to be responsible for the
children after a divorce. Women's contributions in the home and as a
support for their spouses MUST be valued, respected and compensated! This woman
deserves a college education funded by her ex-husband!
Leesa | 9:52 a.m. July 21, 2008
David Smith says that "When God said by the sweat of thy brow thou shalt
eat bread, he wasn't just talking to Adam". Indeed. The hubby may have
earned his degree by the sweat of his own brain, but the degree was PAID for by
the sweat of his wife's brow. If we're going to bring divine commands
into this, then the hubby needs to implement the golden one - do unto others as
you HAVE HAD others do unto you. Pay for your wife's schooling!
bergstro | 10:12 a.m. July 21, 2008
The agenda of this article is obvious when you look at the material facts that
were "omitted" by the reporter. How exactly did the wife support the
husband in school. Typically, a doctor comes out of med school around $200,000
dollars in debt for tuition + fees. If she was earning enough money to pay all
of their expenses, then she can't really claim to be financially needy.
Most probably, her support was in the form of child care, cooking, and maintaining the household. If that is the case, she should just be thankful that her name doesn't appear on those student loan papers.
Most probably, her support was in the form of child care, cooking, and maintaining the household. If that is the case, she should just be thankful that her name doesn't appear on those student loan papers.
actually | 10:27 a.m. July 21, 2008
In today's world, the degree is probably still not paid for. There is
likely a large debt waiting to be paid. That rightly belongs to the person who
got the education.
I know few couples who the person getting the degree does no income-producing work, usually he/she holds some sort of part-time job while attending classes. Also, the majority of couples I know in this community who are young married students with a child or two are receiving some sort of state aid in the form of subsidized housing, child healthcare, and food assistance. I'm just saying it takes a community to educate the population and divorcing couples may place a heavier burden on society. The single mother has access to housing/food/healthcare assistance, daycare, and grants.
Let's look at what's really going on. The model of the sole-support wife paying all the bills and managing the house and kids while hubby goes to school on their dime is as out-dated as the man coming home after 9-5 to the little woman in heels and an apron serving a gourmet meal.
With bankruptcies and welfare, nowdays it's society that foots the bill for so many divorces after "the early years."
I know few couples who the person getting the degree does no income-producing work, usually he/she holds some sort of part-time job while attending classes. Also, the majority of couples I know in this community who are young married students with a child or two are receiving some sort of state aid in the form of subsidized housing, child healthcare, and food assistance. I'm just saying it takes a community to educate the population and divorcing couples may place a heavier burden on society. The single mother has access to housing/food/healthcare assistance, daycare, and grants.
Let's look at what's really going on. The model of the sole-support wife paying all the bills and managing the house and kids while hubby goes to school on their dime is as out-dated as the man coming home after 9-5 to the little woman in heels and an apron serving a gourmet meal.
With bankruptcies and welfare, nowdays it's society that foots the bill for so many divorces after "the early years."
rayrey | 10:40 a.m. July 21, 2008
Well this situation works both ways. Both partners have to be willing to
sacrifice for each other. As far as laws being biased for men, ever try to gain
custody of the children as their father. good luck with that, as the laws are
biased for the mothers.
traditional | 11:07 a.m. July 21, 2008
Traditionally spouses worked together to bring in enough food for their family
and to put together clothing and shelter. The "mom at home" role is a
recent modern invention. Victorian women who "stayed at home" as
property of their husbands were expected to also run the house which meant
overseeing staff which did the cleaning and child-rearing and organizing social
events. Non-wealthy families of the day had every available body working in the
factories 14 hours a day or laboring as domestics for the rich. Previously
"stay at home" women were manufacturing the family clothing, and were
creating the meal on the table from gardening and butchering forward - hardly
comparable to the efforts put into today's homes.
The idea of a woman staying home with the pre-school aged kids and cleaning the house has had a very limited run. In this economy it's back to everyone working to put on the table and to slow the sinking into debt.
The idea of a woman staying home with the pre-school aged kids and cleaning the house has had a very limited run. In this economy it's back to everyone working to put on the table and to slow the sinking into debt.
David Smith | 11:24 a.m. July 21, 2008
For the "A Man Speaking to Other Men" person.
You've obviously bought into the idea that men are evil and that women are some sort of sub-human species with no accountability. Women are people too.
It's time Utah society started holding women accountable. You're probably being taken advantage of and don't even know it.
If you don't hold women accountable, sooner or later, they'll think they don't have to be.
You've obviously bought into the idea that men are evil and that women are some sort of sub-human species with no accountability. Women are people too.
It's time Utah society started holding women accountable. You're probably being taken advantage of and don't even know it.
If you don't hold women accountable, sooner or later, they'll think they don't have to be.
To: Rayrey | 11:30 a.m. July 21, 2008
"As far as laws being biased for men, ever try to gain custody of the
children as their father. good luck with that, as the laws are biased for the
mothers."
The moment you give birth to the child than you may have a valid point but the woman is the one who went through the pregnancy, gave birth, performed all the tasks that only a mother can do. The law recognizes that a mother not only has a biological tie but also a physical tie to the child whereas a man doesn't.
If we were to consider only genetics as a factor the husband and wife each contribute 50% of the child's DNA. In addition, if it's a son a father contributes a Y Chromosome while a mother contributes her mtDNA. If its a daughter the father doesn't contribute his Y chromosome but a mother does contribute her mtDNA. So in terms of genetics both are equal with sons but mothers contribute more to daughters.
So if the law is biased towards mothers its because it recognizes that a mother has contributed equally genetically and more to the birth and rearing of the child than the sexual act.
The moment you give birth to the child than you may have a valid point but the woman is the one who went through the pregnancy, gave birth, performed all the tasks that only a mother can do. The law recognizes that a mother not only has a biological tie but also a physical tie to the child whereas a man doesn't.
If we were to consider only genetics as a factor the husband and wife each contribute 50% of the child's DNA. In addition, if it's a son a father contributes a Y Chromosome while a mother contributes her mtDNA. If its a daughter the father doesn't contribute his Y chromosome but a mother does contribute her mtDNA. So in terms of genetics both are equal with sons but mothers contribute more to daughters.
So if the law is biased towards mothers its because it recognizes that a mother has contributed equally genetically and more to the birth and rearing of the child than the sexual act.
Get your facts straight before | 11:44 a.m. July 21, 2008
actually,
"In today's world, the degree is probably still not paid for. There is likely a large debt waiting to be paid. That rightly belongs to the person who got the education."
That's not true. If you were married to a person at the time they accrued a debt you are also obligated to pay that debt. So if a former spouse defaults on their loans and it's referred for collections legal action can be taken against both spouses even after their divorce so long as a debt occurred before the divorce.
If a spouse dies the current and former spouse are held legally responsible for debts accrued during their marriage unless a divorce decree specifically states otherwise which it normally doesn't unless it equally divides up the marital assets and debts.
I have worked in collections and many former spouses become angry when they receive a call about a debt their former spouse accrued during marriage and are told they have to pay that debt unless they have a decree that states otherwise. I have seen them break down and pay because of a deadbeat former spouse who wouldn't and it affects both of them even after divorce.
"In today's world, the degree is probably still not paid for. There is likely a large debt waiting to be paid. That rightly belongs to the person who got the education."
That's not true. If you were married to a person at the time they accrued a debt you are also obligated to pay that debt. So if a former spouse defaults on their loans and it's referred for collections legal action can be taken against both spouses even after their divorce so long as a debt occurred before the divorce.
If a spouse dies the current and former spouse are held legally responsible for debts accrued during their marriage unless a divorce decree specifically states otherwise which it normally doesn't unless it equally divides up the marital assets and debts.
I have worked in collections and many former spouses become angry when they receive a call about a debt their former spouse accrued during marriage and are told they have to pay that debt unless they have a decree that states otherwise. I have seen them break down and pay because of a deadbeat former spouse who wouldn't and it affects both of them even after divorce.
Doug S | 12:41 p.m. July 21, 2008
"Get your facts straight"--It is you who are wrong. Spouses are not
liable on student loans unless they co-signed. Read the promissory note if you
don't believe me.
Moreover, as a general preposition of Utah law, spouses are legally liable only for their own debts unless the debt is for household necessities.
If your employer goes around trying to browbeat people into paying off the debts of their dead (or deadbeat) spouses, your employer is very likely breaking the law.
Moreover, as a general preposition of Utah law, spouses are legally liable only for their own debts unless the debt is for household necessities.
If your employer goes around trying to browbeat people into paying off the debts of their dead (or deadbeat) spouses, your employer is very likely breaking the law.
Simple Solution | 12:52 p.m. July 21, 2008
As a 50-something woman, I wish I had a couple of dollars for every woman my age
I know who went through this same scenario. Because she gave up her college
education, she has no skills, no income, a house full of kids, and successful
(fill in the blank: MBA, lawyer, doctor) husband runs off with another woman. Or
to "find himself."
The solution: Utah culture, as encouraged by LDS leaders, needs to stop sending the message to young women to quit school and support their young husbands. Stop encouraging early marriage altogether. If both men and women would put off marriage till after graduation, each could achieve an education and enhance chances of succeeding just in case the marriage ends. It's the reality no dreamy-eyed couple wants to consider, but family court is running over with these cases. Sad, but wake up people.
The solution: Utah culture, as encouraged by LDS leaders, needs to stop sending the message to young women to quit school and support their young husbands. Stop encouraging early marriage altogether. If both men and women would put off marriage till after graduation, each could achieve an education and enhance chances of succeeding just in case the marriage ends. It's the reality no dreamy-eyed couple wants to consider, but family court is running over with these cases. Sad, but wake up people.
to: bergstro | 1:27 p.m. July 21, 2008
BEEN THERE. If you claim on your taxes as married filing joint her income and
refunds are taken even if she is not the one who took out the student loan. So
there is really only trust to go on. Unfortunately, most women get left behind
because of her husband's education. TRUST and LOVE come first and this is
something that the couple should discuss as the schooling is happening.
Re: Simple Solution | 1:34 p.m. July 21, 2008
Do you think this is unique to Utah? It's naive for you to blame the LDS
church for something that exists in many other areas and cultures. Stop being so
reductionist and looking for a scape goat. Unfortunately, many of my Eastern
seaboard medical school classmates have done the same thing and have never heard
of the LDS church. The "simple" in your solution refers to you and not
the issue.
Anonymous | 1:38 p.m. July 21, 2008
What kind of man marries a woman only for her monetary value? I say these women
get what they deserved. They shouldn't have gotten engaged after only a
weekend of courtship. That or they sold themselves short on who they
"deserve" and married a schlub.
anniec | 2:02 p.m. July 21, 2008
I agree with the Simple Solution writer. Women should be discouraged from
marrying and having children until they have the financial wherewithall to
support themselves and their children if the marriage fails. We're in a
free market economy here and there is no morality in the markets. Everyone has
to earn their keep and this society assigns no monetary value to the
contributions of a homemaker or mother.
Mary | 2:24 p.m. July 21, 2008
He should pray alimony long enough to put HER through college; alimony would be
a settlement amount not an unrestricted free ride. It just doesn't happen
that way. Real life means that people break up. They married clearly with the
intent of staying together and supporting each other. Divorce breaks the initial
promise and intent. I don't think alimony for life is reasonable either. If
she paid to put him through school, he can pay to put her through school. His
sacrifice won't be nearly what hers was, but they knew that going in.
awesomeron | 2:29 p.m. July 21, 2008
Child Support and the enforcement there of is a separate issue and oh how I
would love to take that on. Utah is not a community property state, I am not
sure it is a No Fault State. You can always move and Divorce him/her in another
State with Laws more to your liking. Nevada used to be 1st in Gambling and 2 in
Divorce. With 6 week lease on apartments. Everyone was worried about fault back
them. You had to have a reason for a Divorce. Get married have a Child and you
have "trapped a man" bring on the Buffet. Relationships evolve over
time and it is so nice to see the Eternal Marriages that work and the people
have 8 kids and work on more till they are 90. That is Reality nothing is phony
or wrong about that. 1/2 the marriages fail, Half work. In some segments of
society we have what is called starter marriages. There is No REal Intention for
the Marriage to stay together. But you need the bennies that come with marriage.
Age and social differences are a big thing. A Trophy Bride is just that a
Trophy. Young after hard work.
CougarKeith | 2:31 p.m. July 21, 2008
Wow, what a sad thing to have happen. My wife IS the bread winner in our home, I
stay home and raise the kids, clean house, cook, wash, mow, and such forth. I
have a disability which prevents me from working. It's not what we want,
but it works for us. We love one another dearly and there is no
"Using" here I assure you. I adore my wife and everything she does for
our family. We are best friends, and we love each other dearly. I feel bad for
this girl, or anyone else who has been used, I know what it is like, I have been
there in the past and it stinks! Never marry because you "Should",
marry because He/She IS YOUR BEST FRIEND, and YOU ARE IN LOVE, if your not, then
wait, it is well worth it. It took me a few marriages to finally figure that
out! One was over 17 years of unhappiness trying to make it work (for the kids),
well it wasn't worth it! AND IT SCREWED UP THE KIDS! Believe me, they know
your not happy.
Seriously? | 2:50 p.m. July 21, 2008
This is going to sound callous, but...
..who cares? What about the spouses that are left so easily because of the "no fault" divorce laws? The spouses that went to school, earned a degree, built an entire life for him/herself, and then supported the entire family on his/her income alone? When the other spouse brought NOTHING to the table financially, except several thousand dollars in debt?
Then the "debted" spouse leaves, and then is awarded, by default, 1/2 of all marital assets.
And then alimony, on top of that.
How is that fair, that because of No-fault, one spouse leaves and takes so much, when nothing was offered to begin with?
The real problem is the fact that divorce is so freaking easy in the first place. It takes two people to marry, but one to divorce.
Then the misandristic society in which Utah operates takes the children and then awards them, plus egregious amounts of child support upon an otherwise good, devoted, loving father.
The whole thing is ridiculous. It's unfair for everyone. Personally, I think it should be more difficult to get a divorce than it currently is. That's the real issue.
..who cares? What about the spouses that are left so easily because of the "no fault" divorce laws? The spouses that went to school, earned a degree, built an entire life for him/herself, and then supported the entire family on his/her income alone? When the other spouse brought NOTHING to the table financially, except several thousand dollars in debt?
Then the "debted" spouse leaves, and then is awarded, by default, 1/2 of all marital assets.
And then alimony, on top of that.
How is that fair, that because of No-fault, one spouse leaves and takes so much, when nothing was offered to begin with?
The real problem is the fact that divorce is so freaking easy in the first place. It takes two people to marry, but one to divorce.
Then the misandristic society in which Utah operates takes the children and then awards them, plus egregious amounts of child support upon an otherwise good, devoted, loving father.
The whole thing is ridiculous. It's unfair for everyone. Personally, I think it should be more difficult to get a divorce than it currently is. That's the real issue.
Annonymous | 3:02 p.m. July 21, 2008
I have a brother who graduated from college, had two babies and was trying to
further his college education and his wife just took off with the kids one day
while he was at work, left a note and her mom flew in from the east and they
loaded up and left him! Now she is trying to divorce him from another state! Get
him for major child support and everything and all because she "Was
Bored" with the marriage. No reason, just bored! Guys like him deserve
better, he should get the kids, she should pay child support!!! It's not
always the guys who are the Bad "Guys", sometimes it's the women!
Simple Solution | 3:09 p.m. July 21, 2008
To correct your assumptions: No way did I say this was a problem unique to Utah.
But the facts are this: Utah has the youngest average marriage age in the union
for both men and women. Even though the age is edging up a bit, young people in
this state tend to get married much younger than elsewhere and are encouraged at
every angle to not delay marriage and child bearing. Don't lecture me about
it--I am LDS and lived it, as did most of my friends.The pressure from my first
husband's family to "support" him emotionally and financially at
the expense of my own goals was overwhelming. I finally left him five years
later when he had switched his major six times and still hadn't graduated
after more than six years of school. Thank heavens we didn't have
children.I can't imagine the poverty I'd have sunk into had that been
the case.
DCnTN | 3:14 p.m. July 21, 2008
Twenty years ago my wife put me through school all the way to a post-graduate
degree. Lots of people warned her I might leave. I had to laugh. A good wife
is not to be given up. I had a few friends break-up at that stage in their
lives, but I don't think it was premeditated in a single instance.
Sometimes a common goal can keep a bad marriage together just a little longer.
I think it's unfair to assume we know who the innocent victim is here. In most divorces there is plenty of blame to go around.
Sometimes a common goal can keep a bad marriage together just a little longer.
I think it's unfair to assume we know who the innocent victim is here. In most divorces there is plenty of blame to go around.
Randall | 4:10 p.m. July 21, 2008
I think that this is more of an issue of arrogance than it is premeditation.
Many professionals come out earning high incomes and feeling arrogant. They
often find a wife prettier than the one they got as a poor college student.
Somebody who does this is scum. My family does not tolerate this, If my brother did this to his wife, you bet we'd be inviting his wife and his children to family events and leaving him in the dust.
Any Scum reading this...i hope you feel guilty.
Somebody who does this is scum. My family does not tolerate this, If my brother did this to his wife, you bet we'd be inviting his wife and his children to family events and leaving him in the dust.
Any Scum reading this...i hope you feel guilty.
Anonymous | 4:25 p.m. July 21, 2008
I'll just make sure I don't go to a Dr. Ashby. If he left her after
she put him through school and doesn't feel the need to provide support for
her, in my book he wouldn't make a Dr. I would be willing to trust.
Re: David Smith | 5:09 p.m. July 21, 2008
Your education is showing. There is no such word as "un-objective."
The opposite of objective is subjective. Perhaps you meant
"un-biased." My money says there was no sweet young woman supporting
YOU through college.
Older but wiser | 6:27 p.m. July 21, 2008
I have a very difficult time believing this article. My exwife ran off with her
old B.F. and sued me for divorce on grounds of "mental cruelty". She
told the judge some really wild stuff that I supposedly had done to her and the
kids.I sat there with my mouth open during the divorce hearing, in shock. I
thought this is the sweet, lovely woman I married? She got the house, the car,
the kids, alimony and child support all the while her live in B.F.is in
"my" house sleeping in "my" bed! I got the shaft! At first I
didn't even know what "mental cruelty" is,but I do now! I get to
see my kids when she says I can and there is nothing I can do about it. I am
older now but much wiser. Men have no rights in divorce court! All the woman has
to do is shed a few tears and claim mental cruelty. I try not to be bitter, but
sometimes I am!
Anonymous | 7:04 p.m. July 21, 2008
Research has concluded that men are the main persons who are looking for a woman
to support them and not vice versa. Men are quick to throw around the term
"golddigger", but research has found the man is the one who fits that
definition.
Women and children are the most exploited beings on this planet. And those who exploit them over 90% of the time are MEN.
Every man who responded to this article negatively has shown selfishness, justification, self-deserving, lack of responsibility and exaggerated pain and suffering. The sad thing about that is there are so many men out there like that. And they aren't marriage-material, in a world where women are more abundant than men to begin with. Men like this always think, because of that, there are more fish in the sea and go out and exploit another woman, instead of taking responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
Women and children are the most exploited beings on this planet. And those who exploit them over 90% of the time are MEN.
Every man who responded to this article negatively has shown selfishness, justification, self-deserving, lack of responsibility and exaggerated pain and suffering. The sad thing about that is there are so many men out there like that. And they aren't marriage-material, in a world where women are more abundant than men to begin with. Men like this always think, because of that, there are more fish in the sea and go out and exploit another woman, instead of taking responsibility for their own thoughts and actions.
A response to the sociopath | 7:33 p.m. July 21, 2008
Older but wiser,
"She got the house, the car, the kids, alimony and child support all the while her live in B.F.is in "my" house sleeping in "my" bed! I got the shaft!"
Your house? Your bed? This is the most arrogant and self-centered comments I have read in this thread.
"At first I didn't even know what "mental cruelty" is,but I do now! I get to see my kids when she says I can and there is nothing I can do about it. I am older now but much wiser. Men have no rights in divorce court! All the woman has to do is shed a few tears and claim mental cruelty. I try not to be bitter, but sometimes I am!"
If your post is any indication of how you treated your wife and children I can understand why the Judge believed your wife. I would too based on your mannerism. I have known sociopaths in my personal life so I can easily recognize one and you are clearly a sociopath.
"She got the house, the car, the kids, alimony and child support all the while her live in B.F.is in "my" house sleeping in "my" bed! I got the shaft!"
Your house? Your bed? This is the most arrogant and self-centered comments I have read in this thread.
"At first I didn't even know what "mental cruelty" is,but I do now! I get to see my kids when she says I can and there is nothing I can do about it. I am older now but much wiser. Men have no rights in divorce court! All the woman has to do is shed a few tears and claim mental cruelty. I try not to be bitter, but sometimes I am!"
If your post is any indication of how you treated your wife and children I can understand why the Judge believed your wife. I would too based on your mannerism. I have known sociopaths in my personal life so I can easily recognize one and you are clearly a sociopath.
Re: Response | 7:54 p.m. July 21, 2008
You don't know my ex wife, or me for that matter. You don't know how I
treated my ex or my kids. I know how I treated them and they know how I treated
them and still know. If you knew, you would know who the real sociopath is. My
exwife could win an academy award!
Career Women | 9:07 p.m. July 21, 2008
I agree with Simple Solution. This is a problem faced more in Utah than
anywhere else, due to the LDS culture of getting married too young. In the rest
of America, girls go off and graduate from college at the same rate (and in many
cases, higher rates) as boys do. They then either go to grad school or start
careers. They don't get married at 20-22 like they do here. The LDS
church (or Utah culture) needs to stop this or they will continue to have a lot
of Utah women with no education or career skills and lots of babies to support.
I don't know of anywhere else in America where middle class girls get
married at 19-22. They are in college and completing it. Utah girls need to do
the same. I'm from the East and this business of marrying young just
doesn't happen.
Maverick | 9:37 p.m. July 21, 2008
This is very unfortunate. When my wife and I were in college I was very adamant
that she not quit school to support us. We both worked and went to school and it
worked out. She graduated one year after me. I don't understand this idea
of one spouse has to dedicate all his/her time to school. It doesn't take
up that much time. Albeit medical and law school do require full time
attention...there is no reason an undergrad or graduate degree would ever
require your full time attention unless you don't have the ability to do
multi-task, which the real world requires and demands. I wish more husbands
would sacrifice so their wives could get an education concurrently with them.
After all...they deserve an education just as much as you, and will be better
for it.
awesomeron | 9:37 p.m. July 21, 2008
"And The Winner is" The Lawyers. I am great believer in Child Support
and a 0 Believer in Alimony. In my debt collection days. I would never make an
arrangement with a person who told me they where waiting for their alimony
check. Get A Job, I you are so Dumpy, Uneducated, Hapless, Hopeless, and
Helpless, and you are living long the lines of Age Appropriate Social Filters.
Then you just have to get along. Stay Fit, Stay Sharp, and Stay Active. I
understand depression hurts, but exercise of all kinds help. Alimony is just one
person trying to live of another person. You may know how hard it is to get rid
of a Leach once it attaches to your skin. The kids while Minors Yes of course
child support, first, last and foremost, Before you even start another family.
The paying adult needs to go to Jail if they don't pay. What they do not
have to do is Pay beyond age 18. Some people do not want to dummy down their
lives. (quit their successful job and build wooden benches or Toll Paint
Rainbows. They like their success. They should not support the X forever.
K | 9:44 p.m. July 21, 2008
Ronald, abnormal not to have sex until 29? Human beings have more self control
than a german shephard.
It is always sad when a marriage dies. I think fights over money just distract people from the pain over divorce.
If someone gets married at 20, they can still finish school or they shouldn't get married. If their parent's stop paying for it if they marry they should carefully consider that factor, but are stuck with the consequences. They are over 18. Don't a lot of girls age 20/22 marry men already done with school?
It is always sad when a marriage dies. I think fights over money just distract people from the pain over divorce.
If someone gets married at 20, they can still finish school or they shouldn't get married. If their parent's stop paying for it if they marry they should carefully consider that factor, but are stuck with the consequences. They are over 18. Don't a lot of girls age 20/22 marry men already done with school?
Mitch | 9:51 p.m. July 21, 2008
While I understand that divorce happens, I don't understand why the man in
this case is fighting the ex-wife's right to additional income. As a
result of her sacrifice he was able to obtain a degree which will likely afford
him a very substantial quality of life. She deserves no less for at least the
length of time that they were married, tack on a bit more for interest.
However, I do not believe that the man is solely to blame for the divorce. Both parties have very likely failed in their responsibilities, and both parties should be held equally accountable. The man should pay up (he's not a man if he doesn't) and the woman should use the opportunity to finish her schooling.
Finally, the student debt should fall to both if both parties are going to capitalize and profit from the degree. If the wife in this case was able to pay for his schooling with her salary (unlikely) then he should pay her back in full, also with interest.
However, I do not believe that the man is solely to blame for the divorce. Both parties have very likely failed in their responsibilities, and both parties should be held equally accountable. The man should pay up (he's not a man if he doesn't) and the woman should use the opportunity to finish her schooling.
Finally, the student debt should fall to both if both parties are going to capitalize and profit from the degree. If the wife in this case was able to pay for his schooling with her salary (unlikely) then he should pay her back in full, also with interest.
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If I were starting a job I would expect the rights and responsibilities of both parties to be set out in black and white.
Perhaps it is time to become that frank.
It feels different to a pre-nup (which seems to me like a document for failure) in as much as a written confirmation of a conversation signed by both parties is just a hard copy of something agreed between the couple.
Plus - "support spouses" should consider that their progression is as valid as their partners and perhaps it is better to stumble thru University together than have one person hold all the financial cards later on.