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the dodge dealers. Waiting for a reply :o, Juliet from Malta.
How are you. Make a decision, even if it's wrong.I am from Belgium and
know bad English, tell me right I wrote the following sentence: "If you are a
magician or a clown you can get higher priced bookings if you offer a flea
circus walt noon.":p Thanks in advance. Lilia.
Estamos atravesando el tiempo de nuestra existencia terrenal. Solo Dios conoce
nuestros anhelos, sueos, miedos y debilidades, y a El daremos cuenta de nuestras
acciones en la tierra. Ojala todas las personas podamos tener un espiritu de
comprension y perdon para poder llegar limpios de nuevo a su presencia.
We believe that man should be punished for his own sins and not Adam's
transgressions. Do you not believe this also? I am just wondering
and asking. If your great grandpa killed someone, say a civilian in the south
during the Civil War, if he was even in it, hypothetically speaking I guess, and
that person was unarmed and even a woman or perhaps even defiled her (I am not
trying to say anything like that has happened or that your great grandfather
even COULD do such a thing) before killing her, should you and every generation
after you need to continue to apologize to her children she may have had that
possibly witnessed it from here to eternity? It would certainly be a
sore thing, indeed, but I doubt that would be expected of you. It seems that as
humanity, when it is convenient to have a license to persecute, whether
physically or verbally or even politically, we jump at the opportunity for that
justification as well as the desire to hang on to anger. Bitterness is something
I do not want to live with. It makes life a lot harder to live than it is
already withsolittle optimism.
SLOW S..Julio is right about you, btw. Wiki can be edited by ANYONE who
participates with it. I believe , personally, that over several million did die
but the exact numbers will be lost forever because the Nazis did not care to
keep a record of the numbers or names they put into the gas chambers and then
incinerated. The sources that put it below a million are from different places,
likely on the opposite spectrum of the political landscape you now find the
Chosen People. If all I did was do a quick Wiki search and call my evidence
definitive, I would be doing a great injustice to not only the Jewish people,
humanity, and history itself. If you want to know where those resources are, go
back to school. I heard them and read them directly from my college history
textbook citing the far reaching different sources but did not read them
directly, only saw them footnoted and cited in college history text. I may have
it still somewhere in my house but after moving, most of us know how things do
hget misplaced. Just trust me that there are sources that say differently than
If a man claims to be speaking for God, but that man is a fallible human being,
how are we supposed to know the difference between when he is speaking for God
and when he is not?
Steven... We learn from past mistakes. While the holocaust was horific, many
study it because we can learn from it, in hopes that it will never happen again.
The same with MMM. Mormons should not hide from the past. And as individuals,
we should not be apologetic for the MMM event (I personally did not take part in
it, so why should I apologize?). The church leadership probably should, but
that's for them to decide.Daisy... A man can be a prophet and still
be a man. Do you think the ancient prophets were perfect? Just because their
fallacies were not written about in detail (like we see with the modern
prophets) does not mean they did not have them.
Wow wee! You guys are a angry bunch.I think the MORMONS owe the Fancher
people a personal apology, and the personal apologies should come from each
perpetrator descendant. You Mormons owe this to these people big time. I too,
agree that the Pope is a man of God for the Catholics. Many religions have men
of God in there churches leadership...NOT JUST MORMONS!
You go boy! I was going to say it but you beat me to it. Catholics are meek but
boy do we carry a big stick when it comes to the truth!
Re: To Tommi,Your exclusivist, elitist, abhorant attitude is exactly
why the world of religions hates the LDS. Your attitude is exactly why Mormon
elitists felt they could do no wrong in Southern Utah, so they prayed before
executing 120 men, women, and children.I testify in the name of God
that the Pope IS a man of God as well as a man CALLED of God. So are very many
great religious leaders in the world today. How DARE you say what you said! YOU
are the one who is NOT of God! YOUR ACTIONS DEMONSTRATE THAT!
I think it would be wel if there was be a public apology to the Fanchers people
come from the millions of descendants of the MMM perpetrators.
The pope is not a man called of God, I follow one prophet and the apostles with
him. I follow President Thomas Monson, and the quorom of the twelve apostales.
The pope, and any other religious leader in the world was not called of God but
of men, and I know, like I said before, That President Monson is man of God, I
follow what he says. This great man does produce great works for humanity all
the time, I hear about them in news all of the time. The propet I follow is not
a man of words, but a man of action. My church has always been a church of
How do you strattle the fence to follow all the men of God when they all have
such different messages, the Pope says one thing, the fundamentlist something
different and the mormons are constantly changing what they say. So to you
follow what was said a few years ago or what is said now or what is not said but
implied. Do the so called men of God really know anymore or less than most
others or do they just say what they need to say to do and keep their jobs. I do
not see any of them producing great works for humanity, they are mostly men of
words; the same words spoken a million times and few times implemented.
They aren't saying anything worth lying about, they could get a billion more
followers if they went and said, "Go ahead and sleep with whoever you want, and
go drink!" But they don't. They don't gain anything from telling us what they
do. I know these men are called of God because I have earnestly
prayed about it, and I have recieved, an undeniable, not from me feeling that
they are real prophets, scoff at me if you want, but hey, I know what I have
felt and I will always follow men of God.
How do you know, if they will lie to get the positions they will certainly lie
to keep them, so who are we to believe.
Does somebody want to tell me what is wrong with following the LDS church
leader? what do they teach that is so bad?They tell us not to drink
alcohol, what is wrong with that?They tell us not to have sex, Is
that really that bad?They tell us not to smoke,They tell
us not to steal,They tell us not kill,None of these
things will hurt me if I follow them, so stop complaining that our leaders are
so evil, there is nothing evil about men called by God. That isn't an argument,
this is a fact, these men are called by God.
All I can say folks, is that there was something that set these Mormon settlers
off to the point of murder. Religious people just don't decide one day to go
kill a bunch of people. There is more to this story than what has been told.
These Mormon people were influenced by someone more powerful to commit these
murders. WHY would they kill families when they had large families of their own?
They were religious family people with children of their own. Something isn't
making a lot of sense?
Please give details of every wagon train for the 2 years before and after this
event. Review how each group was treated by the Mormons. Can a pattern be
established? What changed for this one group?Some have referred to
threats made by some in this group. Authors often refer to them as "idle
threats". Was the Hans Mill Massacre an idle threat? Do we have absolute proof
than someone did not threaten to get the United States Army to attack this
settlement? Has anyone considered self-preservation as a possibility? I
will wait to make a personal judgement until I get enough facts and not just
statements such as these people had "bright futures" implying the Mormon
settlers did not.
You got it in your blood..pay the price, dear!
To GC The test of a TRUE prophet is they are right 100% of the time as they are
getting their revelations from God whom is right 100% of the time as God never
lies. So was BY a true prophet? Deosen't look like it.
Re: GCI would like to know what your personal interest is with the MMM.
This seems to be quite important to you personally for some reason, and that the
LDS church today some how stand accountable for the MMM of a 150 years ago...
WHY IS THAT? It's the past and there is no new evidence. And if there were any
evidence it would have been destroyed more than a century ago.
The statement was to prove a point that Mormons merely pick and choose where to
apply facts to prove "truths" but, only when the outcome is to their benefit.
When writings are plagiarized writing style comes along with it. (Ever heard of
Solomon Spalding?) There are also hundreds if not thousands of words that have
been added to the English language that are merely made up slang. So your
argument holds no merit. There are also many facts that disprove the BOM. Ask
yourself this:Why have there been thousands of changes in the
BOM?Why are there so many plants and animals mentioned in the BOM
that have been proven to not exist at the time the BOM takes place?Why there are over 25 cities mentioned in the BOM that existed at the time of
it's writing (1800's) but proven to be named before it's writing?How
about some evidence from the Hill Cumorah? An arrowhead a sword, anything?Kinderhook Bell, Book of Abraham, Bank Fraud, inhabitants on the moon?
The list goes on.Oh and your three scribes...all left the "church"
and or excommunicated. What does that tell you?Your post has also
helped prove my point.
I never thought Brigham Young was a true Prophet. However, I just enjoy going to
church for the social part of it. I think Brigham Young was definitely involved
in M M M disaster. Many believe the church just makes him out as great guy to
protect the membership, but we know in our hearts he was just a man.
Whether your LDS or not, the truth should be known and the facts should be
accounted for. The events that took place at Mountain Meadows should be
researched and revealed completely. There should be no shame for the current
members of the faith, only a full understanding of what took place. Those that
perpetrated (or contributed to the perpetration of) the events, were human and
fully capable of making mistakes (even as big as this one was). And because of
that, they will be accountable in the end to the one that matters!In
the meantime, we learn to move forward by better understanding the past! I will
purchase the book because I want to better understand what took place and
why.BTW... B.Y. was a great prophet. But he was not infallable -
he was afterall, still human. His revelation on Blacks and the Priesthood was a
mistake. As was the preaching that established the environment (atmosphere)
that lead to the MMM tragedy. ... It is possible to be a good member of the
Church and still understand that the Leadership is human and capable of making
mistakes.Do not follow blindly, but lead in truth.
This article really gets me out of the spirit for the Mormon pioneer day
celebration this week. I have 38 Mormon ancestors and "only one" who was also
unfortunately involved in the Mountain Meadows Massacre. My family are scattered
all over UTAH and mostly all very active LDS. I haven't decided as of yet if I
want to buy the book or not?.. when it becomes available. This is a very touchy
and sad event for me and my family and we still suffer today as a family over
this tragedy. I hope somehow people can learn to forgive and leave this alone,
to rest, and with God.Have a nice Mormon Pioneer Day. You will be in
my thoughts and prayers.
Why do you people keep making an issue out of the MMM? There have been much
worse and are NOW much worse tragedies in our world then this one. You LDS need
to give this history a rest. What's wrong with you people? Who cares about
Brig-Young and his followers fighting with some nonmembers in the wild west. BLA
BLA BLA! I will not buy the book!
Since these early leaders are past and their fate is certain... you can get
baptized for them by proxy and save their butts from the hell sentance they have
coming. I doubt it works! read Hebrews 9:27People get crazy when
you challange their beliefs and chase them out of town!
They also chase cars. Not all dogs are faithful or trustworty and some get
HEY,Dogs bark when they see thief coming to the house,they bark when they see
something strange or questionable things happen before their eyes.Dogs known to
be faithfull and trust-worthy.They will defend their master to the very
end,unlike snake who love to deceive,just as what happenned to Adam and Eve.So
dogs always better than the snakes.anyway,i am waiting for the book.the whole
story is really new to me.I never heard anything like this before.I hope Mormon
people dont feel scared by this book,its part of the history that we all must
know and learn,nothing more.
Lately I've been studying the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII and
the hateful things that were said and written about them during that time. As I
read through the comments posted on this MMM story, I find that attitudes
expressed towards Mormons and the LDS Church in some of the comments are not so
different from the discriminatory attitudes that existed towards Japanese
Americans some 65 years ago. On the other hand, a few of the comments have said
the Arkansas emigrants were "asking for it." NOONE deserves what those people
got--the massacre was completely unjustifiable. Please, as fellow
human beings, can we learn from the past and stop the hate?
I wonder if there has ever been another crime that has been investigated so many
times? This has to be a new record! The "barking dogs" NEED this so very badly
to justify their hatred! They invent the controversy that B.Y.ordered the crime
and when all the investigations can't find any evidence,the "dogs" bark "cover
up, cover up!" If any objective study is done and STILL finds no evidence, the
dogs bark,"cover up"! When will it end?
I look forward to reading this book. I don't deny the churches ability to
produce things that are good, but based on past experience, just things that are
truthful. Hope this is not another white-washing, guess we'll have to wait and
"If we want to uproot the causes of religious violence we must uproot the false
certainties of religion." --Sam Harris--
Fran, now THAT would be worth the price of the book. *laughing*
Does any body know if this book will tell us who to snob at church if they are
related to these LDS perpetrators? I plan too!
Good on Turley and the truth will be revieled. I think the anti-mormons will
hate this book but there is not much more hate int them. Purhaps this will
settle them down an bring the truth upon the non-LDS and the haters out there. I
would think the anti-mormons have much to reconcile themselves with and this
would be a start. Best of wishes. Please anit-mormons if it is not nice and just
plain anti, take it somewhere else.Beth
LDS still has 13 millions members,but has already puff up.If not you try to
deceive people with mislead doctrines ,and sending missionaries everywhere ,i
think you wont get new members. we are all here not to hate you,but only pity
you coz you live under depressions covered in the name of obidient to the
leaders of the church.while i think MMM is not important again ,it remind us to
not blindly follow orders from the leaders.there is a lesson we all can learn
Richard- Wikipedia indicates the Jewish people lost 6 million souls in the
holocaust. Do you wish to say which sources put the figure as low as one-half
of one million? It is estimated by The Auschwitz-Birkenau State Museum that 1.1
million Jews were killed at that complex alone. If you get a chance, please
post where the half-million figure originated.
Three M seems such an interesting book.I enjoy reading detective books.the more
secret and misterious the better.anyway,the title is like a joke.MMM is about
MORMON MEN being suspected of MURDER in the past.i am not anti mormon.its just
that the title and the content fits each other.
I hope this book gives me a "peace" of mind which I need. I plan to buy it.
Thirteen million (not billion) is still a hefty package and the caravan does
indeed move on. The baptist and catholics are just plain scared of the convert
rates and I would chalk many of the anits up to that. I am sad for you whom
think you are Christian but have not accepted the true gospel---not very
Christian but just plain ANTI!
Joe Friday: You are going to give me citations, huh? You can ask any farmer up
here in Wyoming where I now live about the dangers from a spring and Giardia and
people getting sick and dying from it. We use these springs for our water source
and they do get contaminated. Salt water in the ocean is not a yarn, it is
really there. Try going sometime, you can taste it.Shelley: What
thje heck are you talking about? I never said that over a hundred people were
not slaughtered. Try reading my other posts if you care enough to respond to me.
Also, likely you did not read the article. How presumptuous?!? How am I
presumptuous? I have read Turley's work before on other things and am familiar
with him. That does not make me presumptuous but likely more informed than YOU
about the matter. If there are so many sources of information from imperfect
beings (i.e. humans) there will be disagreements. Jews claim several million
died under Hitler's death camps whereas some other sources claim half million.
MMM was well documented by the Mormon families raising th surviving children
which are not "found only in the vault."
You people need some real history. This is book is probably written to protect
Im also looking forward to reading the book. A lot of articles have already
been published from the authors regarding their research, so most of the major
conclusions are already available. Unlike previous apologist accounts, it
doesnt vilify the Fancher Party and dismisses some common myths that keep
popping up. Neither does it delve too deeply into Brighams involvement if
there was any at all. Expect it to get into some of the psychological aspects
of what the Mormons dealt with at the time. From the articles that
I read, I'm expecting that it will treat both sides fairly. I dont see why we
all need to refrain from commenting, now.
Isn't it 13 million (not billion). Anyway, I am hanging on with all my might,
mind and strength to the "caravan". But the barking dogs are pretty loud and it
makes my ears ring sometimes! Oh well, I guess there are no other "carvans" for
them to bark at, is there? Unto whom else shall they bark?
That's billion with an "M".
You can complain all you want but the caravan is moving on and stronger each
day. The thirteen billion members are testiment to that fact! Get a life antis
an perhaps investigate the true gospel which God has restored to us!
JULIO, thank you. I look forward to reading the book and then comparing it with
other accounts and deciding for myself. Bless you for your work.
SLOW SSSSSSSSSS SORRY I ALSO HAVE TO WORK. EVERY DAY I DEAL WITH DEATH AND
DYING. I ENJOYED YOUR COMMENTS ON MMM . AS FAR AS YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS CONTINUED
STUDY AND PRAYER WILL RESOLVE THOSE.GOOD LUCK WITH THATBUY THE BOOK READ
IT PRAY ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!
I agree with "the truth" You are correct.
Perhaps we should comment after everyone has had a chance to read the book, and
I hope the world doesn't come to an end when it is released. We don't need
What does "Under the Banner of Heaven" have to do with the LDS Church? A couple
of nuts that were excommunicated from the church, murdered a woman and her baby.
I'm ex-lds and have read the book, so I find the comment you made bizarre since
one does not relate to the other. If reading a book that has nothing to do with
the church made your sister not want the missionaries anymore, you have a
Things do not happen in a vacuum.You must put all this in historical
context to understand why this happend at all.You must understand
how defensive the mormons were at that time.Having been murdered,
raped, their property taken from them, kick out of misssouri with order of
extermination, their leader murder, and being kicked out illinoise in the dead
of winter.Then the threat of war from the federal government against
the mormons after running way to utah to live in some land no one thought was
any good for anything.Was the fancher party poisoning wells. could
have.Living in a desert, water is vital for life.Was the
fancher party spying for the federal army? Could have, that is good as any
reason to shoot them.Did Brigham order this. Very unlikely.
Certainly out character. NO other wagon train before was attacked. He never
order attacks in missouri or illinoise or anywhere else.And there
is plenty of evidence the he told people just to let them through, while not
giving any help.Why wait till cedar city to do anything?IT would be very much out character to order this, and there is no precedence.
There are 284 comments and the book is not even out yet, so we don't even know
what it says.Should be a great read when it is published next month.
I have commented many times on different subjects , and have only had a couple
of them posted. If you are not going to post comments, why even have it after
I think the MMM needs to be forgotten and everybody needs to go home. I say to
all people who think it is part of their life....Leave it alone! and don't touch
YEAH! i agree, and who killed Joseph Smith and Hyrum and Parley P Pratt. We want
to know? These men should have markers talking about the tragic murders. They
Why don't non-Mormons spend as much time investigating and discussing the
slaughter at Hawn's Mill and the driving of people from Missouri and Illinois?
"The dogs may bark at our heels but the wagon train moves on."
There is a perfectly simple lesson to be learned here. If you disagree with what
a Church leader is saying or doing, follow the chain of command. If a Stake
President, such as Haight was, orders something you feel is wrong, take it to
the next level. Take it up with an Area Authority. If what they say seems wrong,
take it to the Apostles. If they seem wrong, take it to the First Presidency. If
they seem wrong, take it to God directly.That is the chain of
command. God is at the top. Everyone else in the chain is imperfect and subject
to error and corruption. You should never think you are under any obligation to
do or say something you do not believe to be right unless God Himself commands
you directly. Everyone else is a mediator between you and God. Do not ever let
any of them lead you away from God's will.
Why does this have to be a mormon issue? What if it was just a group of men, who
happen to be LDS? Why drag the church into this? Why bring it up at all? It's
ancient history. Let's get passed this. Ah, the anti's can't. Get a flippin'
JULIO-The answer is...no amount of fear and stress justifies murder, so I
guess I did answer my own question. Oh, sorry about the delay, but I have a big
boy job I had to get up early for to support my family. Gosh yeah, the Fanchers,
the Lees and the others certainly have had time to work out that little "tempest
in a teapot" in which cold blooded murder was committed on a whole settler's
party. Excluding the youngsters of course, they got to watch. I'm sure they
have smoothed things over. I'm not fighting battles on line for either side,
and I try to get on with my life, including a rewarding career and over three
decades of monagamy. You have fun playing. I'm still trying to sort out all
the things I was taught growing up in the Church and how the stories keep
changing, so forgive me if I'm a little stressed out. I don't have all the
It's time the Church confronted its past. As a convert to the LDS Church, I have
felt that such reform is long overdue! It's almost like a breath of fresh air.
It doesn't mean that the Church isn't true but that it is not made up of perfect
people. Even Brigham Young and Joeseph Smith weren't perfect, regardless what
some may believe! The Church will survive. The Catholic Church has survived and
look at the tens of thousands of deaths it has caused, directly indirectly.
Protestants who fought with the Catholics don't have a clean record either.
Let's face it, the Church (any church) is there to help the weak and those who
fall short. Don't point fingers...just learn not to repeat the same errors
again. Move on. As for the anti-Mormons who will continue to attack with their
venom, just love them and don't invite them to their own Mountain Meadows. As
with many things back in history, we weren't there, we don't have the same
mentality, and we don't know what we would have done as we sit on our pristine
thrones of judgment in 2008.
I identified with what you eloquently expressed on your comment. I am still
trying, trying hard. The only reason I have not given up is that I think about
what Peter told the Lord when he was discouraged and the Lord asked Peter if he
(Peter) was going to walk away too (like so many others did at that time). Peter
and (I,now) ask, "Where shall I go, thou has the words of eternal life." Those
words have comforted me. Maybe they will you too! Hang in there with me
brother. I think we will be very glad we did, someday, if not now! Where else
shall we go, indeed?
Good heavens, Richard, youre rabid.The Church historian evidently
doesnt agree with your term paper on MMM and you wont venture to call Turley a
liar? How presumptuous. Not only that, but I have to wonder if you
even read this article. The LDS researchers seem to agree that there were only
17 surviving children (not 30) and 120 victims (how do you get 13 adults from
that?). Of course, youre entitled to your opinions, but if you feel
that you have more accurate information than the historians, then maybe your
time is better spent writing your own account of MMM.
joe blow fridaythat makes 2 witnesses that said them same dummmy
Well, back to the reruns on the TVLD channel in the retirement home. I thought I
might give my report on a 150 year old crime, but I've got my doubts about the
jury..."Parowan Patriot," the problem with your Grandpa's story is
it's the same one John D. Lee told in his diary (an original source). The
relevancy is when Proctor Robinson died, not where, which was ten days after the
killings took place at Mountain Meadows and a month after any possible contact
with the Fancher wagon train. Grandpa was probably repeating what he heard. The
emigrants were likely dead before he even fell sick. And "Richard,"
I'm tempted to issue you a couple tickets, one for speeding with the truth on
Giardia; look it up (my sister's the doctor in the family, but yes, I am
well-educated), and you'll find it's fatal about as often as the common cold.
The second ticket is for running a shell game with that spring/stream
switcheroo; up here in the mountains of the Rockies a spring comes out of the
ground, and there isn't anybody upstream. Not that a running stream would stay
poisoned, either. The salt yarn is nonsense.
I tried. I tried hard to live a good LDS life. And much of it was good, and
parts of it made me happy. But I didn't fit the mold, and was told repeatedly I
didn't fit the mold. Parts of it didn't make me happy. It hurt too much to
stay. I believe in a religion of the heart. I take what is good from growing
up and into adulthood as a member of the LDS church and I move forward with my
life. I am not evil, nor am I anti-mormon. I just don't believe there is a one
size fits all approach to life, otherwise we would all be the same.
joe friday. just the facts. i did not say where robinson died. whatever hamblin
said is not pertinent to the facts as written in grandpas journal.grandpa wrote
what he knew as it happened at the time, he was dead by the time of the trial
etc. he was not involved in the mmm but knew people that were an heard their
stories and recorded them. not all the true facts are know to everyone. what did
i eat at IHOP this morning? what? you dont know? just cause you dont know dosent
mean it didnt happen. think about it. there were many people who had various
experiences with the fancher party but just because its not recorded to your
satisfation does mean it didnt happen. there are many ways wells springs and
waterhole can be poisoned. including some weeds that grow in southern utah. GOD
only knows. i am quoting from an original source with no reason to lie. your
info has been sifted and spun many times by both sides. which is more
No, I agree that Haun's Mill and Mountain Meadows were both tragedies--anytime
someone is needlessly killed it's a tragedy. I simply think it's strange that
whenever Mountain Meadows is being discussed someone instantly spouts off about
Haun's Mill, as if that is a justification for anything else the Mormons might
possibly do in the future. (like "what do you expect them to do--this terrible
thing was once done to them.") They seem to exonerate any future actions of the
Utah pioneers because, after all, 18 people died at Haun's mill.
Antis you can keep it coming but your evil makes testimonies grow stonger. We
have and know truth and that is the bottom line. Try living a good LDS life and
you might find peace but until then try to chill and just try and take care of
your families instead of attacking us. I am sad for you and you hate but I pray
for you and the non-members to have a good live until you find the truth of
Christ and his Church.
A cousin of mine in Michigan told me last month that she has had missionaries
visit her several times. She found the whole religion apealling and was reading
one of their books.I told her to read "Under the Banner of Heaven."
She did. Then she told them to not come back. Thank God
I was able to warn her about the history of the LDS church.
I agree D. Michael BassThe Mormons were the true victims and now their
descendants are as well. People who write vicious website with nothing but lies
written about the MMM should be sued for trying to ruin families living today.
These liars are causing much distress among many innocent Mormon families of
today, who may have had an ancestor near the Massacre sight, but no proof they
ever killed anyone, accept for some liar who makes up a bunch of ridiculous
stories to impress the media on his website. I think the LDS members who are
having these lies spread around world wide and across the internet should sue
Exactly correct! You nailed this issue! Great points!
Well yes. Why is it that any time Mountain Meadows Massacre is being discussed
where over 120 unarmed victims were shamelessly murdered and all their
belongings stolen, that some Mormon has to justify it by saying "Well, 18
Mormons were once killed at Haun's Mill."Let me see if I
understand you correctly. HM was not an atrocity because only 18 people were
murdered. How many people have to be murdered for it to be considered an
atrocity or what matter of death do the have to suffer? I did not realize that
numbers or circumstances made a difference. You seem to harshly judge the one
but gloss over the other when in reality they are both atrocities.
Just finishing up, I hope. Word of mouth passed along information about MMM to
descendants in the area but scholars and historians do not take those accounts
seriously unless they are written down by an educated source apparently. Ever
hear of tribal chiefs who spoke of sacred places inside their villages where
sacred objects were kept? Well, of course not. Historians don't like to be
caught citing sources like that. You may be right about the kid, or as you say
Proctor, hehe. This guy claims to be a descendant of someone who was there and
that was what was told him. Norman Rockwell has the gossip down right on his
painting where information passed along can change tremendously. From parents to
children, the hatred of prejudice can and does get passed. He might be more
accurate than the record that is "officially" cited. It may have taken a bit of
time for him to die since he was sick for a time. The Paiute chief's son was the
victim I knew about. If we really wanted to know, we could ask for exhumations
of the bodies which would not liekly bring peace or prevent new questions.
To Joe Friday:You seem to be well spoken if not also fairly
educated. I am surprised you do not know of any poisons that could do such
damage to livestock. Many claim that Selenium kills. I heard it also helps
prevent prostate cancer. Maybe that first part is just spread by men-haters but
it is on bill boards here :).You can dissolve a salt block in
a small amount of water making it unfit for human consumption and likely animal
as well. Wehere would one get salt in Utah? I haven't read about the running
spring being poisoned but I know they can certainly get Giardia. Ever hear of
that? It is a nasty thing to get and can kill you. It happens when fecal matter
or even dead animals end up in the soup upstream. That is how one might poison a
running stream. I don't particularly like to think about how to cause harm or
damage but have to concede that there are absolutely ways. Know what was used
before Liquid Plumber? I had a cousin die from drinking Lye. Liquid Plumber is
as deadly. Lye was around back then and used for other things
The LDS were the real victims in this situation.
It looks like someone started a yahoo chat room and asked all ex-mormons, likely
not by their own choice or as a result of a very bad choice or more, and any LDS
haters to come on down for a good ole fashioned Mormon lynchin' partay. I am
trying to just speak what I know and how I have perceived what I learned from
it. Most of us here are trying to do that and even share some spiritual
enlightenment with others but the bashers are fairly obvious. We understand that
anyone can quote scripture and those who have a very sensitive spot in their
hearts for the LDS Church would no doubt be particularly adept at sticking where
it hurts. Problem is, the bashers and the formers are accusing us of justifying
murder which is not what is happening here. Something like this will stir up
deep feelings in people and always ends up hurting those who open themselves up
to it. I meant to address the deception and say that I found that as well and it
was under the guise of surrendering arms and cattle to replace what was lost
instead resulting in killing the adults(over13orso).
I have often wondered about the on going effort to re-hash the MMM. It continues
on forever. On the other hand I see no effort to find those who killed,
banished, and stole property from the early saints. Who was resonsible for
those horrible acts? Who murdered Joseph and Hyrum? What Christian church did
they belong to or what government agency ordered it? Doesn't seem to be the same
standard does it? Are all Americans guilty because the president of the United
States turned a cold shoulder? Why don't we just let it rest?
Continuing to MMM rumors:This is even true in the laws of physics
with energy and entropy. If it is published, which they say it is, in order to
sell it will have to have "all new only found here, secret documents from a
heretofore sealed vault" or it is a complete rehash of everything everyone has
said here, basically. We will likely see the view from the SLC perspective at
the time but not the one from the Cedar City stake side which has already seen
too much light of day to sort out the truths. I learned enough about it to know
the fault was with all sides, INCLUDING the Paiutes. There is too much smoke
there (no puns intended) and admissions from that time for them to be angered
themselves and stirred up to fight. I don't buy for one second that this will be
the definitive perfect version of the truth, nor my own current understanding of
it to be for that matter.
You are referring of course, to Isaac C. Haight. You also cite a document that
is form 2007 for accuracy concerning this. I do not venture to call Turley or
the others liars if their perspective differs from what I have learned in my own
investigations concerning Mountain Meadows. I do believe that we will not ever
know exactly what happened because of so many peoples' hands in the pot and so
many different accounts of it. One thing is certain, the more imperfect humans
you have doing something together, the more imperfect it will be.
Wilford Woodruff: May 25, 1861.We visited the Mt. Meadows Monument
not up at the burial place of 120 persons killed by Indians in 1857. The pile of
stones was about twelve feet high but begining to tumble down. A wooden cross is
placed on top with the following words, Vengance is mine and I will repay saith
the Lord. Pres Young said it should be Vengance is mine and I have taken a
I have to agree with those who say that we should learn as much truth as we can,
and be mindful of the terrible mistakes and all those who suffered needlessly.
There are a lot of myths surrounding the MMM and according to the authors, this
book will dispel a lot of them. As members, we should not rush to excuse the
inexcusable or try to justify it because of the atrocities suffered at Hauns
Mill. They were all horrors. Respect all those who died during these horrific
events and show compassion for the descendants.
To "Typical LDS Logic":You make no sense for trying to begin with a
logical post. You say you want to apply scholarly and educated means to the BoM
in order to verify or denounce it? Is that what you mean? It has been done in
many ways and many times and forms. One that really stands out is how many
different writing styles were found to be in it when it was put under a test
(the name of which eludes me, sorry). Not to mention, there were over 170 words
added to the English language in it, 540 pages were scribed as dictated, never
repeated (if you are willing to believe that the scribes, Oliver, Martin, and
Emma) according to those who wrote Joseph's words, translation or writing was
done in the total space of about 60 days, and convinve someone to publish it at
cost as well as mortgage their farm to pay for the initial printing of it. That
is a lot at stake for the time period. Anyway, those are just some "facts" for
your "logic" to try and churn out some conclusion.
I'm noticing that many defenders of the faith here are quick to point out that
we need to remember to understand this tragedy in the context of the times, and
that LDS leaders are only human, after all, and shouldn't be expected to always
make the most wise decisions and choices.That being true, would it be okay
for me to feel the same way about the current LDS leadership? Would it be okay
for me to believe, for example, that their current political involvements in
California might possibly be uninspired and misguided?
"Parowan Patriot's" claim about Proctor Robinson's death isn't supported by the
record. He died in Fillmore on September 21, 1857, almost a month after the
Fancher train camped at Corn Creek.Similarly, there is no known
poison whose effects and potency are anywhere near the claims attributed to the
mysterious substance carried by the ill-fated Arkansans.Jacob
Hamblin claimed the emigrants had poisoned a running spring, which is a physical
impossibility.From earlier articles I've read about the planned
Turley volume, these historians suggest that anthrax was the likely cause of the
cattle deaths.It seems absurd to me to even consider the possibility
settlers in Southern Utah wouldn't have known the difference between cattle
deaths from disease and those from poison. Anthrax was well enough known and
feared in that day and age that it was one of the first vaccines developed by
Louis Pasteur.The most logical hypothesis is they villified the MMM
victims as a rationalization for their own indefensible actions.
"Any MMM critics care to comment on this atrocity committed against the LDS?"Well yes. Why is it that any time Mountain Meadows Massacre is being
discussed where over 120 unarmed victims were shamelessly murdered and all their
belongings stolen, that some Mormon has to justify it by saying "Well, 18
Mormons were once killed at Haun's Mill."
Oh and I don't really think they meant to necessarily ask Brigham what they
should do until the Paiutes got mad. That explains, just let me finish now, in
my perception, the most likely possibility as to why they felt they needed
counsel from a higher authority. Things got out of hand a lot more quickly than
anyone could have imagined or possibly handled. It would have been mostly common
sense but then again so would not have bringing the worst sorts of antogonistic
anti-Mormons through fringe territory and yes, knocking down fences and angering
the natives of both sorts.
Kyle...How I "erred" yo never addressed and "prediscriminatory bias" is 2 words,
not one. Go ask Webster. It is easy to say you are a history professor when you
are on a board especially if you are unwilling to or afraid to divulge more than
that like what era of history you profess to know so well. Like I have seen with
so many different history professors anyway, all have their own OPINIONS why
things happened and fill in the holes with guesses which is about all we can do.
Like a smart individual said here already, "if you are looking for a bone you
really want to be there, you will find it no matter what". You see what you want
to see and how you want to see it. I was second-ing the individual who said you
should get over yourself, by the way.Still working on the "erred"
thing. I must have misspelled something seeing as I don't spank English very
well. Say, you wouldn't happen to be an English professor, too, would you?
To the individual who wrote that their name was "To Richard at 5:51": There was
a fight for those children I cited legally to send them back to Arkansas and
Missouri numbering as I stated. I am no "self proclaimed expert" on anything. I
DID go to BYU for 1 year, worked on a Physics degree there before going on a
mission, serving the U.S. Army and then going to Georgia Tech where my home is
(as if ). If you don't think I can see the differences between the "Bible belt"
version of these events and the Church's version, you are absolutely naive. Im
not name calling here but you havent studied it much other than do a quick
Google search. I did the work on it as a term paper which does mean I know more
than the average individual about it. I did the paper while in Georgia at
college and it stood as a testament that I stood by my faith and was willing to
confront something difficult to do and present it orally in front of a large
class fullof non-LDS. I'm passionate about few things and I dare say my beliefs
encompass them all.
Don't you think that the LDS people living today who had ancestors who were
perpetrators, who also are human and have genuine hurt feelings about their sad
ancestors history? You have a very greedy narrow mind and attitude.And by the way, huh?...I am not a LDS member. But nevertheless you
really take the cake on being stupid.
SLOW S YOU ANSWERED YOUR OWN QUESTION! WHAT KIND OF FEAR AND STRESS WOULD YOU
HAVE TO BE UNDER TO COMMIT SUCH AN ACT. BUT IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR VICTIMS THE
ARE ALL AROUD YOU. EVERY WANTS TO PLAY THE VICTIN AND THE BLAME GAME. WHAT IS
NEEDED IS SOME INTELLECTUAL HONESTY. AND SOME DEEP SOUL SEARCHING. SPEAKING OF
ESOTERIC... I WONDER WHAT JOHN D LEE AND THE FANCHERS THINK OF OUR TEMPEST IN A
TEA POT. THEYVE HAD A WHILE TO WORK IT OUT AMONGST THEMSELVES WITH SOME HELP
FROM THE LORD, AND ARE PROBABLY WONDERING WHY WE DONT DO SOMETHING WORTHWHILE
WITH OUR TIME INSTEAD OF FIGHTING THEIR BATTLES FOR THEM ONLINE..... HEY KIDS
LETS GO TO THE PARK AND PLAY.
I wished some of you critics out there would post on here how you are connected
to the Mountain Meadows Massacre and tell us all how it has been part of your
life. It seems like a lot of personal involvement with ancestors perhaps on both
sides or just plain Mormon basher in full force-what is it with each of you?
How is this massacre an LDS tragedy? They didn't die, they murdered. The
tragedy is for the people, the non-Mormons, who got killed by traveling through
Utah!!!LDS tragedy? Huh????????????????
So SMU lost to BYU. So......... why be bitter. After all its ancient history and
nothing is going to change the outcome for SMU, the Fancher Party, or John Lee
and his decendants. As the song says from when i was smoking pot inthe 60s at UC
BERKELY: "COME ON PEOPLE NOW SMILE ON YOUR BROTHER, EVERYBODY GET TOGETHER, TRY
TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER RIGHT NOW! P.S. Julio made some good points he has been
studing . GOOD JOB!
Here is another atrocity.We found, on our arrival at Richmond, that
all these things had actually taken place; and in addition to all the rest of
these unheared of outrages, eighteen of our citizens had been shot dead at
Hauns' Mill, in Caldwell county, and many others wounded, all this without
making any resistance. The circumstances of this massacre were as follows: some
two hundred robbers, on hearing of the governor's order for extermination,
rushed suddenly upon some of our Society, who, on seeing them approach, took
shelter in a log building which had been occupied as a blacksmith shop. On
seeing their enemies approach in a hostile manner, they cried for quarter, but
were instantly fired upon, and when most of them had fallen, and were lying in
heaps, in the agonies of death, the murderers put their guns through the
crevices between the logs, and shot the dead and dying thro' and through, as a
token of bravery, and also to glut their bloodthirsty disposition. Clark V. Johnson, ed., The Mormon Redress Petitions: Documents of the
1833-1838 Missouri Conflict, p.89 90Any MMM critics care to
comment on this atrocity committed against the LDS?
Woulda, coulda, shoulda . . . Please show me a more righteous people
. . starting with yourself and your own attitude, but only after you enjoy the
privilege of being chased out of your home and community 3 times and a
significant percentage of your family has died as a result. And I
don't mean self-righteous . . .
Everyone has their opinion about what they "think" or "feel" happened. This
book will be an interesting source for reference, but I assume wait until I pass
the veil and find out the truth.And the Mormon Church has owned up
to the event as much as possible with Pres. Hinckley asking these men to find
out everything they possibly could about the subject (good and bad). As Saints,
we embrace history, learn from it, and move ever onward.
Sorry JULIO, but I think there is a heartbreaking number of victims, victims in
the millions, because of the evil actions of men. If you are referring to the
choices of pre-mortal man, you are talking some pretty esoteric doctrine, which
I no longer accept. Let's talk about the topic of this book. The Fancher
party, whatever indiscretions they may have perpetrated on the Mormon settlers
could not possibly have called for them to be subject to cowardly attack,
deceitful surrender and cold-blooded murder at the hands of Mormon settlers and
some Native Americans. Their children certainly did not exercise any free
agency as their parents were murdered in front of their eyes. We will have to
disagree on these points. I hope this book, other books on the topic and
further research will some day let us understand how mostly decent Mormon
settlers could murder so many mostly decent disenfranchised people from
I think there is a enough mud throwing for a life time on this post. You people
need to take care of your own lives and not worry so much about the Mormons.
CONTRADICTION?Do not get me wrong! The LDS leaders of today are great
people! They are honest and faithful and very good people. However, they will
not let their own membership know the truths that have been hidden for many
years If you say this and it is all a lies, are you saying even thought
the leadership lie to the members that they are still good people? Are liars
good people? Hummmm? You contradict yourself greatly.LINDA H.
SLOW SSSSSSSS: I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. IF YOU ARE LDS YOU MUST
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT IN THE BIG SCHEME OF THINGS THERE ARE NO VICTIMS IN THIS LIFE.
WE ACCEPTED EVERYONES ABILITY TO USE OR MISSUSE THEIR FREE AGENCY. WE WERE NOT
ONLY WILLING TO ACCEPT THE CONDITIONS BUT WE "SHOUTED FOR JOY AT THE PROSPECT.
NOW HAVING SAID THAT I APPLAUD TURLEY AND CO. FOR THEIR EFFORTS AND I PLAN ON
READING THE BOOK STUDIOUSLY AS I DID WITH BUSHMANS ROUGH STONE ROLLING JOSEPH
SMITH BOOK. I THINK IT IS HEALTHY TO POSE ALL SIDES IN A SCHOLARLY WAY SO ALL
SEEKERS OF TRUTH CAN GETS THE FACTS THAT ARE CURRENTLY AVAILABLE. BUT IT IS
IMPORTANT TO BE AWARE OF THE HISTORICAL CONTEXT THAT COLORED THE ACTIONS OF ALL
PARTIES. WE CAN"T JUDGE THE ACTIONS OF THE PEOPLE 150 YRS AGO WITHOUT PROPER
CONTEXT.YES THERE ARE THOSE WHO WILL TRASH THE CHURCH AND ITS LEADERS REGARDLESS
OF THE FACTS SET FORTH IN THE PUBLICATION. AND THERE WILL BE THOSE DECENDANTS OF
THE ACCUSED OFFENDED BY THIS BOOK. NONE OF US WAS THERE ALL WE CAN DO IS TRY TO
UNDERSTAND THIS TRAGEDY IN IT'S HISTORICAL CONTEXT!
Many LDS members and leaders always say "even though the people aren't
true/perfect the church is!"This is the single biggest lie ever
propagated by the LDS church.In fact I believe it is that exact
opposite!The LDS people are generally very true (by this I mean good
hearted and nice people), but the Church is based upon lies and not so nice
historical leaders. MMM just confirms this even more.Talk to any LDS person and they are usually the some of the nicest people you
will ever meet. They are friendly and generally honest and hardworking people.
The one sad thing is that that vast majority of LDS people do not understand
their own Church's history of its early leaders. They only see what is given to
them by other LDS leaders.Do not get me wrong! The LDS leaders of
today are great people! They are honest and faithful and very good people.
However, they will not let their own membership know the truths that have been
hidden for many years.Things like MMM and polygamy's fallout are
never discussed openly. They should be. May this be a start towards that.
I wasn't there at the MMM so I am not really responsible. Because I have German
ancestory, does that make me guilty of the Jewish Holocaust? Since Hitler was
supposed to be a Lutheran, does that make Lutherans guilty of the Holocaust? If
you are desperate to find a reason to justify your hatred of Lutheran's I guess
so. Some of you hate way too much! Some of you ignore the facts (the fact that
there is no evidence of B.Y's involvement) but that doesn't matter to you. You
NEED him to be guilty, so in your thinking, he has to be.
I think you're very possibly right in your statements. But I also think that
the LDS people WOULD invite me to their BBQ. After all, we're all neighbors.
Modern Mormons may seem fanatical, at times, but they've always been friendly to
me. I'm not really worried about a repeat massacre.
I don't hate Mormons. I used to be one. What I hate is being deceived and lied
to. I hate the fact that it took 150 years for the truth to be told. I hate
the fact that members are still being told that they will be blessed, even if
they do something wrong, as long as they are obedient to their leaders. This is
so, so wrong, and it simply needs to stop. The same mindset that existed at
Mountain Meadows seems so alive and well today that it just seems a little
Are you LDS folks having a good time? This looks like road rage on here tonight.
For those LDS who carry such grudges against those who are only trying to
enlighten others with the true facts of the Mormon history, you may need serious
professional help. You have denial issues! Your hate of those trying to help you
understand your religion's true history will only consume you to the point of
becoming a son of perdition. The MMM atrocity is a part of your religion's
history and has everything to do with what your religion has become. Perhaps you
LDS folks should see a head shrinker. Wait your already too close minded. That
won't help at all. You need to expand your minds and see outside of your biased
point of view how ridiculous it is to even attempt to rationalize away the
murders of 100+ people.
Some people need to cut down on the caffeine.
is crumbling under the weight of more negative press.First the
embarrassment of the FLDS, who although the LDS Church claim is not LDS. They
share the same scriptures, doctrine and history of polygamy. Many LDS today now
try to justify or rationalize the polygamist past with "it was only spiritual
marriage" etc. What a bunch of bunk!Now the MMM events are being
brought to light again. More LDS embarrassment. No wonder so many are leaving
the Church! The growth of the LDS church is stagnant at best now. Only 8 year
old baptisms are keeping the church a float population wise.The
Internet is now being used to disseminate the meat before the milk is drunk by
investigators.There is a lot of good in the LDS lifestyle. But it is
built upon fanatical and salacious historical facts that have been hidden for
over a century.Go on and keep thinking that your "Pascal's Wager"
will payoff. While the rest of us are truly living better and kinder lives
within our communities, not closing ourselves off to others because of religious
differences.Even LDS are invited over to my house for friendly BBQ.
Would LDS do the same?
I think Brigham intentionally lead these mormon men to commit the murders.
Brigham Young also said in his journals (which I read) that the Indians killed
the wagontrain people. So he must have known something was going on in Cedar
re: JaniceI apologize if you feel I was trying to make victims of
descendants of those involved in the horrible tragedy of MMM. With ties and
roots in southern and central Utah, I know the general goodness and peacefulness
of these people. I was merely trying to point out to JULIO that even the Mormon
settlers of that era cannot justify killing disarmed settlers. It's a terrible
tragedy that is uncomfortable to look at from any viewpoint. Plus, I don't hate
Mormons, I am one as are almost all of my relatives. My question to JULIO is
simply at Mountain Meadows, who were the victims?
Are you folks having a good time? This looks like road-rage on here tonight. For
those of you who carry so much hate in your heart for Mormons, may need to seek
some professional help. Your hate will eventually consume you completely to the
end of your life if you do not learn to deal with NOW. The M.M.M. has absolutely
nothing to do with any of you. Perhaps you folks should go sleep it off!
There are lessons to be learned from this tragedy of the past. If it seems
wrong, then maybe it is wrong. Even Church leaders can lead others astray. We
are all responsible for our own actions and can't simply blame whoever is in
charge. It's easier to repent of being too kind than too mean and extreme.
Religious zealotry is as deadly as any other zeal--even today! Let's all take a
deep breath and mellow out.
Re: Insane Mormons, Your statement was insane. Get a life if you
The Mountain Meadows Massacre happened because of religious persecution.It's a fact that if you tease a dog long enough he will bite, and the
out come could even prove to be deadly.
War is hell. Try going to bagdad. All is fair in war and the winners write the
history.Julio is right on the money . Have you ever been threatened?During the
revolutionary war the British complained because the cowardly americans hid
behind trees instead of lining up to be shot at. In kosovo women and children
were raped them murdered in front of the men before they were shot. Did you go
stop it? Every year thousands of people die in accidents caused by drunk
drivers. What are you doing about it. Life sucks then you die, then god takes
care of the victims and the perpetrators. Millions of little babies are mudered
by their own parents with help from the us govt. what are you doing to stop
Abraham lied to protect his wife. He said that she was his sister. Does that
make him less of a prophet or example? There have been so many atrocities
throught history on many fronts. Most of them in the name of religion. the
crusades come to mind. Jesus Christ himself was called a rebel because he
taught that he was the son of God. that really went over big with Ceaser. I am
not condoning what happened in Southern Utah. what happened happened. No
excuses. So did linengrad but there are many, Leaders for entire nations of the
same leanage that totally denigh that if even happened, against overwhelming
proof and survivers. We will never know what goes on in the heartsand minds of
men when they are confronted with decisions. that is between them and their god
whomever that is. Argueing about it and pointing fingers is unproductive. blind
faith is unproductive. Develope a relationship with your God whomever that may
be and do unto others as you would have done unto you. Live the ten
Commandments ( oh by the way Moses was a murderer or was that too long ago for
you to remember)
I'm glad the Church is finally allowing an open look at this part of it's
history. I'm afraid it has been less than honest in the past, which has led to
many false stories that exist in the minds of members today.Perhaps
we can all learn from the mistakes that have been made. Maybe we can learn to
be less trusting of our leaders, and more courageous and willing to stand
forward when something wrong is being done in the name of religion. We can
learn to trust our own sense of reason and logic. If so, then re-addressing the
issue will have done some good.
What it all boils down to is that the early Mormon church and today's Taliban
have a lot in common. Both committed acts of atrocity because they were on
God's side and felt fully justified in doing so.Why is it that
"God's army" always acts with such conviction and righteous indignation, yet
always seems to be on the wrong side?
Re: Slow SAnd some of you who constantly keep stirring the pot on
the MMM are as well making victims out of descendants of the perpetrators. You
stone throwers will not stop at any point. All your personal hate and bigotry
against all Mormons will not seize. You modern Mormon mobber's of today are
still victimizing Mormons and their descendants. Perhaps you need to put to rest
that MMM victims are dead and gone and have nothing to do with any of you Mormon
haters of today. But you are making victims out of the innocent descendants of
the Mormons who's ancestors were involved in MMM--shame on you evil people!
Brigham Young could have just as easily stirred up his followers against gays
and they would have all gone out blindly and voted to pass an amendment to the
constitution forbidding gay marriage!Mountain Meadows is about blind
obedience and religious fanaticism.So is Proposition 8
um JULIO,The Fancher Party was from Arkansas.
My great great great granpas journal records the goings on. But none of the
reseachers have it or all the other contemperaneous records.I am sure they have
done their best with the resources available to them. An interesting item in the
journal records how a waterhole that had been in use for a long time was found
to be poisoned right after the Fancher company had camped there. Many cattle
died along with other animals who drank there. Grandpa says the robinson boy
died after eating meat from the dead cattle. He says many buzzards and other
scavengers dies as a result. He was there and helped burn the carcasses of the
dead animals. So just because this story is not in the book dosen't mean it
didnt happen. What if some one poisoned your water supply, how would you feel?
Will you Mormons quit trying to make excuses for the MMM?!You are
absolutely insane to believe that ANYTHING can excuse the cold-blooded slaughter
of over 100 men, women, and children!There is NO EXCUSE for it, so
WHY ARE YOU TRYING!?You only show your real colors by such insanity.
Unfortunately the history of Mormon abuse of non-mormons is a living thread. Oh
yes, Virginia...the fundamentalist Mormons are alive and well in Utah. You
don't have to look too far. They have their own secret society of self-rightous
hypocrits who are all too eager to use others, judge them, discard them, and
claim their own set of rules under which to follow. Oh yes, Virginia they go to
church every Sunday, yet on Monday they are all too willing to manipulate,
deceive, and to exploit. They are living, breathing, and continuing right here
in Utah County. They never owe anyone an explanation, but rather take copius
notes of those who do not act in according to their own views. Hey, this one
goes out to the self rightous in Elk Ridge..see anyone smoking boys?? If so,
don't forget to get their name. Yes, indeed...Virginia..history lives now.
Yes, Mormons have been persecuted. The MMM story is about civilians being
slaughtered in front of their children after surrendering their guns.
DEAR ANONYMOUS, WHAT PLANET ARE YOU FROM? WHO SAID ANYTHING ABOUT GAYS. WE ARE
um JULIO,The Fancher Party were the victims, they were slaughtered
in front of their children.
Julio,And now in the name of religion, you want to do essentially
the same thing to gays?
Why don't we see in the media books/news about the hundreds of Mormons murdered
and persecuted by mobs during the early history of the church and how they were
driven from their homes in the dead of winter?
Certainly the MMM was a horrible atrocity that shouldn't have happened yet
looking at the fuller picture, psychologically one can see the Post Traumatic
Stress Syndrome working in the LDS people who had been SO OFTEN victims of mobs,
burnings, violence, rapes and murder themselves! Look at what the mob did to
Joseph Smith? At the time of the MMM, the US govt. had sent an ARMY
to Utah, (without trying ANY talks first!) to supposedly put down a treasonous
rebellion! I understand in the settlement that LDS participants were given
amnesty.In light of the PAST PERSONAL experiences of the LDS people,
what should LDS expect to happen to them?? They had gotten NO HELP whatsoever
from the govt. or officials, before, during or after their sufferings, though
they went with the proof. I'm glad that this book is availabe. I
find it interesting that no one seems to want to find out who did the murders of
the LDS at Hauns Mill Massacre, or of the MANY others murders of LDS. Does
anyone try to find out who participated or was responsible for the Crusades??
Shall we hold the pope and all Catholics today responsible? FORGIVE ALL!
Rumors abound re MMM. The emigrants didnt poison the waterholes. The Native
Americans didnt instigate it. The Mormons were not afraid of the emigrants
because of past persecutions. They thought they might need supplies to flee the
army, so they wouldnt sell any supplies to wagon trains and were excessively
charging emigrants just to grind small amounts of grain. This created
unnecessary tension, because as it turned out the army was not expected before
winter. The Town Marshall wanted arrest some of the emigrants on
charges of intoxication and blasphemy, but had to back down. The Mormons were
intent on chasing them down and arresting them and requested the militia, which
was DENIED. Haight and others formulated a plan to do it anyway using the help
of the Paiutes. AGAIN, the plan was met with resistance from the Council, and
when Haight pushed harder, they told him to send a dispatch to Brigham Young for
advice. Communication between Haight and Lee broke down here, because Lee
jumped the gun and attacked the wagon train. MMM was planned and organized.
Richard Turley addresses the inaccuracies. Check the newsroom at lds.org.
Turley's article based on his research is dated 6/19/07.
I have to agree with julio. The mindset of americans in that time was
interesting.The south justified slavery with appeals to the bible. And both
north and south felt justified in going to war against other americans ,
resulting in over 600,000 deaths and many horrific injuries. In addition to the
us army marching on utah there were many inflamtory editorials in eastern
newspapers and debates in congress calling for the anihilation of the mormons.
In the fancher party there was a group called the missouri wilcats who bragged
about mobbing mormons in missouri. They claimed to have then gun that killed
joseph smith. Also beloved mormon apostle Parley P Pratt had been murdered in
arkansas a few months before. His murderer was never tried for his crime. After
all, all he did was kill a mormon. No big deal to the local authorities.
To Ernest T.,If there is proof "spin," you still haven't offered
any.You continue to dodge the issue. Please define "objective
history," and please name one "outside source" of "objective history."You can't."Entire, objective history" is not recoverable. This is
one of the unfortunate limitations of historiography. Why do you hold the Church
to a standard that every one of your "outside sources" (e.g., Quinn) fail to
Re: JULIOThank you for such a good comment. Many of us will agree with
you. What you said is true fact and true history... Thanks again!
FIRST OF ALL ITS EASY TO SIT IN THIS TIME OF PEACE AND PROSPERITY AND JUDGE
EVNTS IN HISTORY BY MODERN STANDARDS. WE CANT. BUT LETS PUT THIS IN CONTEXT. THE
MORMONS HAD BEEN BRUTALLY RAPED, BEATEN, ROBBED, KILLED, AND DRIVEN OUT OF THE
USA.THEY WERE DENIED THIER CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS,AND ANY PROTECTION UNDER THE
LAW.AN EXTERMINATION ORDER HAD BEEN ISSUED IN MISSOURI MAKING IT LAWFUL TO KILL
MORMONS. MORMONS HAD LESS PROTECTION IN MISSOURI THAN BLACK SLAVES. AN ARMY OF
THE USA WAS MARCHING TO "DEAL" WITH THE MORMON PROBLEM. PEOPLE IN SALT LAKE CITY
FILLED HOMES AND BUSINESSES WITH STRAW READY TO PUT IT TO THE TORCH IF INVADED.
THIS WAS THE WILD WEST WHERE EVERYONE WENT ARMED OR RISKED BEING VICTIMIZED BY
BANDITS, INDIANS, OR PREDATORS. THEN ALONG COMES A LOUDMOUTHED GROUP OF SETTLERS
FROM MISSOURI AND ARKANSAS TALKING TRASH. YES THE MORMONS WERE CONCERNED.
MEANWHILE BACK IN THE STATES IN KANSAS AND MISSOURI PRO AND ANTI SLAVERY MOBS
ARE RAIDING AND KILLING INNOCENTS. THINK ABOUT IT, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU
HAD TO CARRY A GUN TO PROTECT YOUR WIFE AND CHILDREN FROM RAPE AND MURDER. WOULD
YOU ALLOW YOURSELF TO BE A VICTIM?
re: To Ernest:Yes, I know they are. My little bro, D. Michael claims there
is no proof of spin from FARMS and No. Temple. I'm simply pointing out that the
fact that the entire, objective history is never included in their "research"
shows that there is spin. One must go to outside sources to find the truth. That
is spin and that is my entire point.
Re: Leadership aint easy 5:04pm,If Brigham couldn't handle the
position, he should not have battled Sydney and others for it. He should have
stepped aside and let a more competant leader take charge.Its
interesting that you wrote this. Actually, it was Sidneys inflammatory speeches
that caused the clashes between the Mormons and the Missourians, which to make a
long story short, eventually lead to the extermination order. Rigdon was
ultra-militant to the point of being detrimentally affected by religious fervor;
but then again extreme zeal could rally the followers and made for strong and
popular leadership in those days. BY and Rigdon both sparked fires with
incendiary speeches and were unable to control the results. Even more
interesting that after the disaster in Missouri, BY allowed it to occur again.
As others have mentioned, whether it be religious, political or military,
fanaticism that induces and controls group beliefs/actions has been well
documented through history. Seems like the old adage is true: Those who cannot
learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Dead Earnest - All those things are available to the merely curious. Pick
up a book.
Ernest T.,On the contrary, I think a dictionary would be a rather
sound investment for you. And, yes, type slower, you might make fewer
mistakes(e.g., "expostor").Just how would you define "objective"?
And when did it become the Church's responsibility to present opposing
viewpoints? If you don't trust the Church--and clearly you don't-- you can go to
other sources.But can you even name an "objective" source? The
Church is no less "objective," than its critics (you included.) Consequently
your frequent shouts of "spin! spin!" continue to ring hollow. You have yet to
show how the Church and FARMS "spin" anything. You have failed to even define
"spin" in any cogent way. You simply continue to assert that people "spin." You
seem to assume that "viewpoint" and "spin" are synonymous. They are not.Just asserting something over and over--the broken record approach--does
not make said assertion a fact. And, yes, "broken record" is an apt metaphor
here considering your fondness for the word "spin."If you have all
the facts regarding MMM, polygamy, the Nauvoo Expositor episode, etc., by all
means lay them out and enlighten us all. You still haven't cited one.
To Tina and all the others | 1:26 a.m"heaven forbid that true
scholarship and examination of the historical record should stand in the way of
something your hunches tell you is true."You should try applying
that same logic to the Book of Mormon.You can't pick and choose
where to apply facts in order to determine the truth.
Chuckles55,It is good you saw the monument.Too bad you
couldn't have seen several of the previous monuments that have been erected
there over the years.Brigham Young ordered at least one of those
previous monuments destroyed!That is an historical fact.Sounds like he wasn't interested in the truth, doesn't it.Would
any of you apologists like to try to explain how ANY circumstances (fear of the
government, etc.) could possibly explain Brigham Young ordering a monument
destroyed years after the fact?!
As I've read these comments, it is clear there are two lessons to be learned
from the Mountain Meadows Massacre:1) NEVER put blind faith in
authority of any kind! This is especially true of religious authority because
the emotions associated with spirituality are confusing and dangerous.2) LDS Church leaders are NOT immune from making mistakes, sinning, and
leading their followers wrong ("astray").So long as we keep those
two very important lessons in mind, perhaps something good can come from this
tragedy.But if we fail to learn these two important lessons, not
only will those people have died in vain, but history will repeat itself and
more people will be harmed or murdered in the name of obedience to authority!
D. Michael, thanks again for the dictionary lesson. Saves me the need to buy
one.And yes, "perogitive" sounds right to me and 99% of the population. Or
maybe I'm just "ignernt".So, why don't we EVER hear an objective history
of the Church unless we go to a source other than the Church itself?Why
don't they tell us the background on the expostor or the background on the
extermination order; with regards to Sidney Rigdon's speech, or polygamy; the
ages of some brides along with the fact they many of them were already married
to other men."Spin" is not objective. The LDS Church as a source is not
objective, therefore they "spin" things to sound favorable.Maybe I should
type slower so you could understand.Doubt it.
To AnonymousI agree, leaders of people can bring their followers
down to hell, and than run from the hell that they themselves have created for
their followers. And then act pious and innocent like they never, never knew or
had anything to do with the evil massacre they encouraged and created their
followers to engage in. Leaders and their cowardly acts always SHOVE SHOVE SHOVE
the blame to someone else... that makes them a true coward.I hope
someday there will be peace for MMM ALL VICTIMS on BOTH SIDES!
Raymond,You are partially correct. What you ignore is that all of
these examples you cite are examples NOT of horrible things being done "out of
fear for themselves and their families." Rather, they are done by people who
identify themselves with an organization, and who are coerced or deceived into
such horrible acts by powerful leaders who use them like pawns to manipulate and
deceive.The Stake President who ordered the Mountain Meadows
Massacre claimed to be acting on orders from above, as did John D. Lee.
Massacres of Indian encampments happened in the name of "Manifest Destiny" and
the policy of the U.S. Government at the time. Those like my uncle who
participated in the My Lai massacre DID NOT VOLUNTEER to go to Vietnam! They
were DRAFTED! The SS members were also COERCED in the Nazi murder of millions of
Jews and gays.The Obedience to authority doctrines in the Church are
no different in that regard than the obedience to authority policies in the
military. It is the glue that binds the exploited pawn to their kings so the
kings can carry out their will and then deny the bad stuff by blaming the pawns!
Does it really matter who did what?Can we move past this?Are we going to dig BY up from his grave and try him?
Re Raymond Takashi Swensen, Elizabeth, & Anna RoseThank for writing
comments that make sense. I fully agree with you 3 people. Peace & Forgiveness =
Love and Godliness.Hate, hating and stirring up Hate = The Devil &
I agree with Elizabeth. This book needs to be fair for both sides of the M.M.M.
fence or it will indeed never end. There are thousands and thousands of Mormon
descendants form the M.M.Massacre who suffer over this horrible event, just as
those do from the massacred group. It is time for peace. Some people out there
need get over their hate, venomous anger and learn to forgive. We need the
spirit of God, and not the spirit of the devil to heal, so that there can peace
Good move by Chuckles55 and wife to visit the site and also, Lee's Ferry. This
will give helpful insight as to our viewpoints other than just reading the
book. And Richard, concerning everything coming out being hypothetical -
we study and learn about the past such that we can ponder our present and
future. I'm not sure that hypothetical is the right word when pertinent
information has been stored in private vaults and not accessible. Good point of
yours, that apparently not too many fully grasp, is that one must try (the
difficult part) to view events in the continuity of the social dynamic of the
time and circumstances, e.g., no cell phones. [:>)
Bear Rug,Your sarcasm is a juvenile as your little "fingers pointing
back" cliche (which means absolutely nothing, by the way). Save it for the
playground.What is wrong with people today believing they can
actually know about something that happened over 100 years ago? Don't YOU claim
to "know" (beyond a shadow of a doubt ) that Joseph Smith had a vision over 100
years ago? And don't you claim to "know" so many things about his life -- so
much so that you "have a testimony" and savor the wonderful images in your mind
of him praying innocently in the grove of trees, and you have confidence in you
IMAGINATION of all those events that happened well over 100 years ago!? No, nobody alive today was at Mountain Meadows. But neither was anybody
alive today at the "Sacred Grove"! So by your own admission, "We weren't there.
We won't be able to answer EVERY question about this episode. Our modern-day
leaders will not be able to answer every question."But you still
claim to "know"! How foolishly arrogant and self-deceived you are!
Many of the worst things that people do are done out of fear for themselves and
their families. The same US Army troops who were marching toward Utah and the
Mormons when the Mountain Meadows Massacre took place performed their own
massacre of Indians soon after their arrival. Other massacres of Indian
encampments happened all over the West for decades. It should not be forgotten
that abnormally brutal behavior is possible for ordinary people when they are
enlisted in military units that are badly led. The My Lai massacre and the
massacres of Filipino civilians by Japanese troops share a common psychology
with the Nazi murder of millions of Jews and others. The random bombings of
London and the mass fire bomb raids against Dresden and Japanese cities killed
millions of civilians. The nuclear weapons still in the arsenals of many
nations threaten the killing of millions in one blow. 21st Century humans are
still ready to kill not 120, but 120,000 at a time. And over 3000 people were
killed on 9/11/2001 by a few Islamic jihadists. This is a problem not of
Mormons, but of all human beings.
This book will never be published. They've promised its release for 10 years.
These historians are incapable of actually producing anything. Not because the
subject is controversial but because they never finish anything.
Apologies are not enough for some people. There are people out there who rather
enjoy festering up evil hate against the Mormons, and with their evil websites
that are full of nothing but lie after lie. I say, let this rest once and for
all! And, I hope after Richards Turleys book release next month there will be no
more said. I hope and pray Mr. Turleys book is fair to all involved, or this may
never end.Good day folks!
As a Latter-day Saint I welcome this full and frank discussion. "The truth will
set you free." It is a sad part of our history. We've owned it, apologized,
and life can go on. But let's never forget the victims.
Just saying it isn't gambling doesn't change the realty. You are just gambling
on God and religion. That is not true faith. In fact, it is cowardice. It
suggests that IF the odds were "likely" to go the other way, you would abandon
God and the Church because the odds went the other way. What kind of religious
baloney is that?You need to do some real soul searching, because you
really are not a sincere believer!Good luck.
I am so glad that I live in an enlightened society, where everybody knows
everything about something that happened over 100 years ago. It is comforting
to know that we can read a newspaper article and then pass judgment on others.
I know, I know, some of you have the inside track on the history of the LDS
religion. You KNOW ALL there is to know about the leadership, and their
actions, as well as those of the general membership.The MMM was a terrible
thing. Those that perpetrated the act will answer for those crimes. We weren't
there. We won't be able to answer EVERY question about this episode. Our
modern-day leaders will not be able to answer every question. The best thing to
do is to make sure that WE are doing right things, that our behaviour is
correct. We will NEVER have to answer for the sins of others. We also need to
remember that when we point a finger at someone, we have three pointing back at
Ridgerunner - There are a lot more scenarios available to all of us. That's a
pretty limited choice you've relegated yourself to.
Ernest T.,If "perogitive" looks or sounds right to you, you probably
shouldn't be using it.You raise an interesting question, though: why
did William Law publish the Nauvoo Expositor? You then evade your own question
with an insinuation that the Church is guilty of misrepresenting history,
without offering one shred of supporting evidence or dealing with a single fact
pertinent to your question. Sounds like "spin" to me.This kind of
laziness is typical of your posts.
Great Idea for this book now lets do the prequel Let this be the forth in a
series. The first could be the Missouri years "run the Mormons out" second Hauns
mill"the planning to run the Mormons out" City of Joseph "oh yeah run the
Mormons out" I absolutely abhor what happened at MMM and there is no
justification for it, but context is a strange phenomenon, we try to judge what
happens through todays eyes. This is impossible. We can never know what was in
the hearts of these men. Bottom line It happened a long time before I became
aware of the church and it has absolutely no affect on what I believe today.Our detractors have always tried to judge our Church by the actions of a
few. Please let them judge by the works as a whole and in context. The reality
is that these things shouldn't have happened, but they did and nothing we can do
or say will appease the detractors or please the others. Please lets just
move on and let this book be put in the archives for all to see and read and
make up their own mind.
As Einstein said, "Blind respect for authority is the greatst enemy of truth."
The real essential question isn't whether or not Brighan Young ordered the
masacre (he probably didn't) or whether he created an atmosphere that led
otherwise church-going, law-abiding men to commit such a grotesque atrocity (he
probbly did), but rather whether these church-going, law-abiding men who were
asked to undertake the most horrible deed imaginable would have "prayed over it"
before doing it and if so, what questions does that raise?
ConundrumWith the MMM becoming more well known around the world the Church
is facing a real problem with the declared statement that following the
direction (and atittudes) of our leaders (who presumably speak for the prophet)
will never lead us astray. In this instance this caused a major problem --- and
it probably hasn't been the first time before or since. Not even prophets are
perfect. In the final analysis one has to look at that rare commodity called
"common sense" for direction.
It's not gambling at all, it's a choice, a decision like everything else in
life. Thanks for your comments.
I am amazed at how many people come on here and proclaim that Brigham Young most
certainly was responsible for MMM. Are you the same people who insisted, with
equal lack of evidence, that JonBenet Ramsey's parents were responsible for her
murder? I hope none of you will read this book, because heaven forbid that true
scholarship and examination of the historical record should stand in the way of
something your hunches tell you is true.
Real devotion to the LDS Church is a matter of personal spiritual conviction.
The conclusions of this book or the wish of some to discredit the Church will
not impact those with such a conviction. We aready know that humans
make mistakes. The massacre was an horrible, inexcusable mistake, and is not
the only mistake ever made by members of the LDS church or of other churches.
There may be other gross things done by some that would embarrass or offend, but
the Spirit does not lie and will sustain those who have been blessed to be
recipients of its powerful witness in spite of whatever is suggested or
supposedly discovered by those who do not understand this source of truth. "But
the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are
foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually
discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:14)
Ridgerunner,This is a poor version of the classic "Pascal's Wager"
and it amounts to placing a bet in favor of God.That is not real
faith. That is gambling. According to my understanding of Christianity, if all
you are doing is gambling on God, you lose!Perhaps more importantly,
the exact same logic (playing the odds) is used to justify an atheist, criminal
lifestyle.Your logic is not Christian. Better luck next time!
Well said, Ryan. I fully agree.
To 7:11pmThe list you speak of is inaccurate. So perhaps you don't know
any more than anyone else on here. And you are no self proclaimed expert
either.To- Principle 1950I agree with you, a great many LDS
descendants from the perpetrators of M. M. M., are as well VICTIMS and suffer
greatly over the M. M. Massacre. A lot of people seem to over look this. Why
should their feeling not be included?
Can anyone imagine for even for a second that the Leaders of the day would do
anything without Brigham Youngs permission?? And especially something like
this!! He ruled with an iron fist and everyone knew what it meant to be on the
wrong side of him!! Some say he tried to stop it, so therefor he knew about it,
and if he knew about it, then someone must have asked him for his permission. So
if they asked for permission they certainly would not have proceeded without
knowing the answer. Either way, he set up the feelings and attitude that led to
this awful event. So in reality he is accountable for the action of his
influence over his followers.
It looks like my little brother, D. Michael Bass received a dictionary for his
birthday.Just one example is the reason WHY William Law published the
Nauvoo Expositor. We never hear the reason behind it, instead it's implied that
we were the victims.That is just one of MANY examples of spin.
Richard,Youve erred. I have no "prediscriminatory bias" (is that
even a word?) toward the LDS...I am one. And following your suggestion, I will
try to "get over myself", but as a history professor, I do often enjoy these
One thing I never understood was why these people even NEEDED to send a message
to ask Brigham Young whether or not they should attack a wagon train full of
settlers. I mean, its sort of a common sense type of thing. Brigham Young was
a very powerful leader, so I have to wonder how much brain-washing was going on.
So, how can I see the Jon Voight movie about this, or do I need to get it from
Netflix or go out-of-state. Mormons like to tell of the offenses in Missouri,
which is understandable, but never seem to tell of the massacre in Utah against
Looks like my little brother, D. Michael Bass received a dictionary for
Christmas.Here's one: Why don't we ever hear the truth about the Nauvoo
Expositer? There is background to why William Law published it but we never hear
what it is.That, my friend, is spin. Massive amounts of spin.
Geez. This is anews story not time time for testimony. Some of you look very
silly and are the reason why people look upon us as the rabid mormons you all
I think beyond the issue of whether Brigham Young knew about the massacre, the
event is instructive for any follower of Jesus Christ. Leaders play an
important role in any great effort--especially in serving God. But the Holy
Ghost and personal revelation play an imparative role. Most leaders are
righteous, and adhering to their counsel can result in much greater achievements
than the individual acting in isolation coul accomplish. But in my strong
opinion, it's wrong to say "Do Everything the Stake President Asks Without
Question." At the end of the day, obedience refers to obedience to God. While
hopefully not often, this will sometimes mean dissobedience to a Bishop Stake
President or other church leader. While the lesson is nuanced, it's one that I
think leaders must articulate.
and well, all one has to do is visit SE Utah , get a glimpse on how the natives
are treated...let me see the ex county commissioner and son are now in federal
prison cells...on a pyramid scheme which bilked some 111million dollars away
from hurting school districts..nationally the local papers showed pictures of
the ex county commissioner recieving some citizen of the year award while
awaiting their trial..then some crazy guy broke a restraining order a while back
, causing his friends to try to declare a militia just help save him...the
courts in that area were ordered to stop and desist on their practice of not
including native americans on the jury pool this in a county with 55% native
population well the list just goes on..all in the area of what's the couple who
kidnapped their daughter to keep her from getting married history bah hum bug!
Other than the fact you say you studied MMM in college (BYU maybe?) Im not sure
why youre a self-proclaimed expert, but the victims list is online. Couldn't
find 30 survivors. 18 children all under the age of 6 survived.
Over 30 children between the ages of 7 and 17 (including some infants) were
brutally murdered with their parents.
I have greatly enjoyed the debate on these blogs. I would like to weigh in with
my view just in case it helps someone who struggles with their faith (like I
used to)There are but two possible scenarios. #1: There is a God, the B of
M is true and the LDS church is the only true church (has all correct
doctines).#2: If the athiests are right, The B of M is a fraud, there is
no God and the Church is deceiving people.If #2 turns out to be
correct, my faith has given me much joy and happiness all through my life as I
share it with my loved ones. (only I would know this-not anyone else).
Therefore, if the atheists are right, when we all die, everything goes dark and
that is the end. What did my faith give me in this scenario? Happiness and joy!
If #1 turns out to be right I get happiness in this life and eternal
happiness with my forever family!I win in both cases because of my
faith! What does the alternative bring? Despair, darkness and no hope! I choose
faith every time!
My husband's 2nd great grandfather was the bishop in Cedar City, at the time of
the MMM, and deeply involved. I can attest to the pain that this incident has
caused to the descendants of the perpetrators of it. I consider the descendants
to be victims, also, and hope some resolution, peace and understanding can come
to all involved in some way from reading this new book.
To Leadership Ain't Easy:You likely never understood that in order
to be heard over many people, one had to speak loudly before microphones and PA
systems so of course BY had to have been loud, spiritually strong, etc. He was
never ambiguous in what he meant to me. Do you understand everything Jesus meant
or everything that was meant in Revelations? Those might be very well construed
as to be unclear so by saying that BY should have given up to Sydney Rigdon, you
are saying that Peter was the rightful ruler of the church and were Clementine
and Linus his followers instead of John who was writing Revelations on Patmos.
By was a man but like I said before, there was hardly time enough to get word
from that local far end to SLC and back again with even an answer as the
messenger arrived just after it ended. What was the message? Let them pass and
keep the peace, certainly not decicde for yourselves or kill them all. If it had
been the latter, there would not have been 30 some odd children who survived it.
Kyle your words show an obvious prediscriminatory bias against LDS to begin with
and you do need to get over yourself. Of course it needs to be remembered but
who remembers any single atrocity committed by any other church during the
1800's off the top of their heads? Do the local masons, not the entire masonry
who denounced Joseph's murder, even take responsibility for killing a masonic
order brother? They never have but justify their actions by having been a part
of that mob. No one was ever punished for that, by the way. But some of the men
in the mob died grizzly deaths after participating in that terrible act. History
is written by the winners of wars and Utah (Deseret) never waged a war against
its inevitab le statehood in the U.S. so guess who gets to write the history.
Certainly it is a better thing there was not a war against statehood but we will
never get the truth and it is not "far worse" to blame the indians especially
since there was absolutely some culpability there. The Church apologized because
it feels it could have diffused the situation but did not and therefore
shoulders the blame/responsibility.
Brigham Young was responsible for the MMM. No doubt in my mind.
Re:One who has questionsI have the same questions? I wonder if this new
Richard Turley book will answer any of them?
RE: KyleI agree with you. Thanks
Hey Kyle , get over yourself.
Brigham was VERY inflammatory in MANY of his speaches!Many True Blue
Mormons will insist that doesn't make him responsible for MMM.But
"if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the
battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be
understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the
air." (1 Corinthians 14:8-9).If a prophet is not clear, the blood
spilt by his misunderstanding followers is on HIS hands!If Prophets
are going to claim to speak for God, they are responsible for being clear.
Brigham wasn't, and there should be little doubt in anyone's mind that is why he
tried to cover things up.If Brigham couldn't handle the position, he
should not have battled Sydney and others for it. He should have stepped aside
and let a more competant leader take charge.
I dont "hate" the LDS Church or leaders, but I do hate that some members demand
MMM be dropped because it's "ancient history", yet they persist in defending the
actions of murderers--or worse lay blame on the Indians. Obviously, history
gets distorted in the eyes of some in order to avoid facing a few disturbing
realities. You cannot understand MMM if you dont understand
that early Mormons weren't exactly a peaceful, religious people. Leaders made
vengeful, inflammatory speeches that stirred hate/fear in locals. Mormons
raised a militia and there were clashes between Mormons and legal/military
authorities BEFORE the infamous Missouri extermination order occurred. Plural
marriage wasn't common knowledge in Missouri, and wasn't a factor then. While BY can't be tied directly to MMM, he was no doubt indirectly
responsible due to his OWN well-documented inflammatory rhetoric. Perhaps it was
"misinterpreted" by the members as the leader's standing approval to avenge the
murders of early saints and protect themselves from outsiders. Additionally,
some culpability can be inferred by the behavior BY exhibited after the deed was
done. If one believes that God micro-manages the Church and prophets
are infallible, then accepting the transgressions of history may prove far too
It is said that Brigham instucted the mormons NOT to help this wagontrain.Apprently their was something very disagreeable or wrong with this wagon
train.What is it?What is being covered up or atleast not
talked about?Why were the people told not to help this wagon train
as opposed to other wagon trains?Why is all focus on the church and
who was or wasn't involved in the massacre?Who were these wagon
train people?Why do we know so little about them and their past?Why were they denied help in their travels through utah?Who
are these arkansasans? what is their past?
....who is glad to have as ample an account of what can be known about the
Massacre.I disagree with my fellow Mormons who feel the event should
be forgotten. It should be remembered and contemplated. This need not involve
exascerbation and self-flagellation: just reflection.I agree with my
fellow Mormons who say we should look to the future, and would add that
understanding MMM will help us do exactly that.I strongly disagree
with my fellow Mormons who justify, either directly or indirectly, the murder of
the Missouri company, or who call it anything less than murder.I
beleive the Church is true, that Joseph was God's prophet, as was Brigham and
his successors, and that God will accomplish his purposes. I imagine this will
be difficult, in part because, as the Lord revealed to Joseph, almost all men
are profoundly imperfect (DC 121). Mormons ought to be the last people on earth
to be surprised at their own imperfections. We're all better off when we learn
from our mistakes, and marvell, as I do, the Lord mercifully and patiently
continues to invite us to share in it.
I wonder if the book will address the theory of blood atonement as a motive.
Wesley: I don't see that we disagree. You might try reading up to all of my
postings here where I state the same things you did. I am glad to see that you
are open to envisioning the dynamics of the time and the difficulties with the
situation that ensued afterwards. John D. Lee gave a deathbed confession I had
to cite showing how he blamed BY for not getting back with help in time, not
giving him an execution order that he really wanted. He blames BY for everything
as he was executed and yes, there were up to 50 other Mormon men involved in the
tragedy and they were the local militia, essentially. If any of you have seen
how sparsely populated that area is even today, you will likely be able to
picture how hard it would have been to tell your neighbor living several miles
away to go and gather the help and come on down for an anti-LDS hangin' (sarcasm
doesn't help here, I know). 50 LDS men at most against 120 armed travellers in a
defensive position circled wagon train. It is obvious that the LDS did not do it
Does anyone know if there is a blog where we don't have to log in that is
similar as Des., News, blogs that we can discuss and talk about the M M M ? I
have many questions about M M M?
Re: Mr RichardWho killed these people? Was it the Indians or the
Mormons, or both? I would say probably both, but lean towards the Indians who
had one of their own die from the poison water. I have seen where a lot of
people who passionately hate the Mormons have said all the Mormons who were near
by the massacre were murderers, clubbing's, and shooters, and which I know is
not true. The true few murderers ran and hid, and the others who were near by
stayed as witnesses, and who were not shooters nor clubbers, as some nonmember
Mormon hater has made up on his website. There are some terrible liars out there
who just make up stuff about the Mormons with no proof what so ever. These
people try with all their might to damage reputations of others. I find them
Fredd: Nearly 100% of the children survived the massacre/tragedy, whatever you
wish to call it shows your bias one way or another. If you want to know more,
just aske their descendants who were brought up hating Mormons back in Missouri
and Arkansas (possibly or even likely). Sadly, a few of the infants did die at
the hands of the MIXED LDS and Paiute group. These were held in the arms of
their mothers who did not wish to let them go back and remain with the older
children and survive. Killing the women does not seem to be something any group
would decide to do especially "God-fearing" people. On the other hand, seeing
how Mormons are so well known for keeping a journal, scripture, accurate daily
records of events even today, they documented theoirown persecutions well
including when the wildcats killed Mormon women for years leading up to that
time before the Mormon "threat" was ran completely out of civilization under
extermination orders that were signed by the governor of Missouri allowing
anyone to kill a Mormon and do so legally, regardless of their age, gender, hair
color, etc. This was on the books in Missouri mid-1970 even still.
Bill is correct concerning the "Missouri wildcats" whom the emigrants likely
believed would protect them from the vicious Mormons because "they had
encountered their kind and would serve as good bodyguards" while going through
the territory. The party should have gone straight through SLC and this would
never have happened either. To anyone who thinks that BY could have
had anything to do with this: I state this only because of how much has been
said and those who wish to blame a single leaer for the actions of everyone even
on the fringes of communication. There was no telephone. There was no telegraph
there. There was no way other than sending someone with a message on horseback
with a message that became outdated immediately after he left to Cedar City on
towards SLC without any immediate new information about the changing, fluid,
dynamic, volatile situation. BY got the news in time to pray about and if he
received an answer or decided what to do even other than what we have heard up
until today which was let them pass and likely keep the peace no rider could
have made it back intime for the message to save lives.
To "Historian:You are incorrect with your rebuttal against me
concerning the knocking down of fences. I was glad to make an essay out of my
posting but we are limited to only a few words to make our comments. The
Arkansans DID knock down fences rather than go around a 1000 acre plot of land
homesteaded by Mormons because it was much easier than scouting out an alternate
route and whoever was the last through the fence likely didn't care to set it
back up since they were not in the U.S. any more at the time and the Mormon laws
couldd not possibly pertain to them since they were not Mormon and had no
respect for them. Only a couple of children died as the history shows the
children SURVIVORS were kept in Mormon households for years until the state was
brought into the U.S> shortly following the death of Brigham Young. The
poisoning of water holes is a fact of past that even today some Paiutes will
still speak of through descendancy and how their Mormon neighbors witnessed it
as well. The son of the chief at the time was a brave that died from it.
I am sad for those whom reject any accountability by the Church and your
leaders. Instead of accountabilty all I hear is the testimonies. This is very
troubling and very sad people, very sad.!
Its not the LDS church that is full of hate. It is the people who seek to find
something magnificent in this tragedy, and make a senseless issue out of this
Massacre. The MMM is something that no longer exists nor should affect anyone
living today. It is just another historical event Gone with the wind.What is wrong with you sick people who dwell on this tragedy day in and day
out. What are you proving to others by filling and consuming your lives with so
much hate? This tragedy has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever with any living
person today. You angry people out there who dwell on the MMM, with this kind
of hate need some serious psychiatric help. The kinds of hate you people are
expressing on here are not normal by any means. Hate and dwelling on hate is
much more evil than the MMM that happened 150 years ago.Let this rest
another in depth look into the Mountains Meadows Massacre. As horrible as this
is, it's getting old.
TO Historian on the OutsideThere is nothing in any LDS church vault
that you may think there is. And if there were some sort of evidence in the
churches vault I'm certain it would have been destroyed a long time ago. You are
dreaming, buddy. Nothing in that church vault but membership records and
genealogy. At least as far as I know. No MMM records for you to ponder. SORRY!
Until Historians outside the faith who can truly be seen as not having an agenda
and then compare their conclusions with the present LDS authors conclusions,
there will always be suspicion that something is still being covered up. OPEN
THE VAULTS. There is no reason to not let any credible historian study anything
the church has in its possession. Let detractors spew whatever and let people
make an honest decision for themselves who is telling the truth.
Nobody living today should shove the blame to any one person. No one really
knows what happened at the Mountains Meadows Massacre 150 years ago--none of us
were there. We can only guess, and imagine in our minds, and wonder why it
happened? There are many, many theories why it happened and they are only
theories.It has always puzzled me how so many good Mormon men could
have done such a horrific thing, but I was not there to witness it, so I do not
know the answer. It is best to let this rest and forgive.History is
full of strange events and much worse.
As a life long member of the church I think there are a number of lessons we as
members can learn. First, we must not diefy our church leaders. They are
nothing more than men with important callings. As men we should expect them to
make mistakes. If we do we probably won't be dissappointed. And second, we
must never be guilty of blind obedience. We alone will answer for our actions.
It's not going to fly on judgement day when we try to tell our creator that "the
bishop made me do it". MMM happened because a bunch of members showed blind
obedience to some very misguided church leaders. Hopefully we'll learn from our
past mistakes and it will never happen again. In the mean time, as a member, I
along with others, feel a collective guilt. Even though we were never there.
Here is the paradox. It seems that the some of the early Saints and especially
some of their leaders were terribly wrong in their actions. Yet their fruits
that are left for us are most perfect I am talking about the Book of Mormon,
the Pearl of Great Price, the Doctrine and Covenants and the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-Day-Saints. I have attended many churchs. While I
have met many wonderful people of different faiths, I can't find the same spirit
in their church or teachings. As a Mormon I watch humble, loving, unpaid
members run a church that teaches it's members to strive to live their lives
like Christ did. I can only come to one conclusion. Even if early Mormons made
mistakes, the Church is true.If someone provided me the best world's
evidence that the Church wasn't true, I would still want to be part of it. It
is the most perfect institution on earth. The MMM was a tragedy. So is the
effort by many of you to try and destroy something as wonderful as the LDS
Loretta,If you are "forgiving" as a form of revenge, is it really
I think the person commenting as Get Over It is closer to the truth of this
matter than the authors.It's so easy to sensationalize this story to
the readers or to those who would potentially buy this book. What you anti
mormons and conspiracy theorists want to hear is that the Mormon church did
this. The order came from the top. These are the same as those commenting like
Todd C. The only truth in it is that the LDS leadership at that time said to
the people of the Utah Territory, prepare to defend yourselves. The people were
well warned to be on the lookout for mobs and militias to follow. They were to
get prepared for even an invasion of the US military and these people were ready
to kill any invaders.Imagine if you were driving around Provo late
on a Saturday night and came upon a big wild keg party were alcohol was being
served. You went in and saw the Second Counselor and the Ward Clerk drinking a
beer. You write about it with the title "Provo Fourth Ward Organizes Beer
Party". It's a damnable lie to sensationalize a story with half truths.
The thing I am disgusted with is that the Mormon haters, and sadly, the authors
of this book, try to tie this massacre so tightly to the church. The truth is
that these people who organized the battle just so happened to also be LOCAL LDS
leadership acting in their official roles as civil leaders. In a war time, when
those involved in carrying out the massacre were on a very high level of alert
looking to defend their families and their way of life from others that they
believed were coming to harm them, this wagon train wandered into the Iron
County Military District. Yes, although you might reject this outright, the book
could have told the story in only a few pages by giving some historical
background and then closing with - "The Fancher-Baker wagon train was just in
the wrong place at the wrong time." It's the same as so many other massacres
long forgotten to history. We often think of indians as we have seen it
portrayed in the movies. A group of people wanders into an area where the local
people feel scared or threatened and a battle ensues. When one side dominates,
To those who impatiently say to "move on" and "the past is past":"What is past is not dead; it is not even past. If we cut ourselves off from
it, we prefer to live as strangers." -- David O. McKay
To Ridgerunner,I will be patient with your ignorance and naivete.
There IS evidence of a coverup. That is not being invented. In addition to the
evidence of a coverup, there are ALSO many documents that are missing. We know
this because these documents are mentioned and sometimes quoted in other
documents that we DO have, but when we look in the journals, records, and files,
specific, targeted pieces of history that we KNOW should exist, have been
removed and possibly destroyed!I think you are projecting your OWN
desperate need to justify your beliefs onto others. So desperate are you to
justify your feelings of self-righteousness and moral superiority that you will
even stoop to making misleading comments and unsupported attacks on objective
facts and the people who espouse them.What does that say about you?
Sin happens. Even in Zion.Yes, sin. Not faults and failings. Not
a lapse in judgment. Not just criminal acts. Sin.Where is
absolution to be found?Perhaps another example is in order. Listen
to what the Holy Father said at the Catholic Youth Conference this week.
Apologize yet again for the abuses of the past, and it will make no difference
to those who still choose to hate.The surest form of revenge is to
forgive your enemy totally.
I am glad to see this volume coming out, and the care that has been taken to
provide as much information about the events as possible.
Someone else had to help John D. Lee murder those 100+ people. No way one man
could do it all. By this understanding of the basic facts we can infer that
there were other perpetrators involved. Furthermore, these others were involved
in the actions and the cover-up.Yes, there was a cover-up, as only
one man was ever convicted of these murders and the others got away. So we can
all agree a cover-up occurred.Some think the main question is
whether or not LDS leadership, Brigham etc. was involved by ordering the actions
and cover-up. To me this doesn't really matter. I'm sure if BY didn't order it,
the anti's won't believe it. And if BY did order it, any evidence has most
likely been destroyed long ago.We have heard a vow of secrecy prayer
was conducted after the incident, led by J.D. Lee. Was this done under the
color of religion? If this can be verified as truthful, then this fact would be
more damning to the Church than BY's involvement.The the main
criticism of Mormonism is... how could the self claimed only true church, be
true if it could be involved in such a massacre?
Some of you are amusing to me. You invent a conspiracy (B.Y. involement in MMM)
and when there is no evidence, you claim it is a coverup! If someone is
objective in their investigation you say they are prejudiced and their research
can't be trusted. To some of us,it seems you are angry because there is no
evidence! But you so desperately need evidence to justify your irrational
hatred of the man and his religion. What does that say about you?
wow! you sound so angry! No need to be insulting and calling me a hypocrite! You
don't even know me. Your point about faith saving us from,"what"? We are
all going to die. And even though you have no faith of this, we will be judged
according to our faith and works.Science will not be there to help. Won't even
be a factor.Policies change with the times but revelations don't.
Never has a revelation changed doctrine. Policies, yes, but never doctrine.
Plenty of example in the Bible. Peter received a revelation chaging the policy
of the early church toward prosleyting gentiles.Word of wisdom: you
have to understand that in 1833 no one knew about the dangers of tobacco or
alcohol. Go ask your doctor (science) about the health benefits of the W of
W.(food fad?) Or if you don't believe him, you smoke a pack of Camels everyday
or swill a 6 pack each day and see what it does to your health.Sorry you
are so angry! I am not really a hypocrite by the way! Nor have I called you any
I remember participating in Boy Scout activities on the Mountain Meadow ranch in
the 1950s. It has taken years for me to receive the full impact of what
happened there.It honestly makes me think twice about rushing to
limit the human rights of minority groups in California who did nothing more
wrong than be born into this world with a same-sex affinity.
But words can be intrepreted to mean something completely different.A little exercise to see if we can find the truth about a simple sentence.I never said she stole the money.Easy to understand. But put
emphasis on each of the words seperately."I" never said she stole
the money. Some one else said it.I "never" said she stole the money.
Flat denial.I never "said" she stole the money. I enferred or wrote
that.I never said "she" stole the money. Someone else stole it.I never said she "stole" the money. It was givent to her, or she
borrowed it.I never said she stole the "money". She stole something
else.Any one can get any meaning out of the bool they are looking
for, depending on how they interpret it. This book wikk NEVER give anyone
answers that their bias' are already looking for.Keep trying.Like I said before, while we on earth search for answers, the guilty
parties have already been judged and dealt with.As for me, I will
spend my time trying to do something positive with my life.
Okay, Mormons committed the MMM... so what? A South Korean killed over 30
people at Virginia Tech last year. Should we now hold all South Koreans
responsible for his actions? I'm a convert to the Church of about 15 years now,
so I really have absolutely no ties to what happened at the MMM. So why do so
many of you Mormon-haters insist on dragging me and every other Mormon through
the mud for this event that none of us were alive for and that all of us
condemn? The perpetrators were Mormon... so what?
Looks like these men are trying to make a best seller, and a lot of money. Bet
the book has a big charge to it. Evey person has a idea. Will they give this
book free, NO, all for the money. I will not have the time for it. Can I tell
you about my family in the 1800, not much only a name and date maybe. I can make
up a good story on them but is it true.
Hello BOB,It's a true tragedy for some of us LDS descendants of the
perpetrators that were there during the massacre. Please don't blame the
Journalist for reporting on this, It is their right to do so. And, I really
doubt that you were around watching the tragedy of 150 years ago, or have any
true knowledge of it, or the so called killers, to go and spout off anything you
didn't witness with your own two eyes.
You said:Aren't we supposed forgive and forget?OR does that
just apply to mormons?************************************************So you're saying
that Hauns Mill, the Extermination Order and the sending of Johnson's Army are
never brought up by Mormons? LOL. You are a very funny person.Mormons never pass up an opportunity to remind everyone how their ancestors
were "wronged." The Fancher party should at least should get the same option.
Whether it be 18 Mormons in Missouri or 120+ Arkansans in So. Utah
or milliions of Jews in Europe. The truth needs to be told AND RETOLD-- so it
never happens again.
I don't think I could ever accept that Brigham Young didn't have something to do
with the MMM. In my opinion he most definitely did know what was going on with
MMM. I also cannot accept Brigham Young as a prophet of god, he was a fallen
prophet. All he prophets after Brigham are true prophets. One prophet has
nothing to do with the calling of the next, but god does have something to do
with it. Brigham Young did not stop God from calling another man in the church
to become a true prophet.
How is this an LDS tragey? Talk about some journalistic spin. The LDS were not
killed, rather they were the killers.
it seems LDS had some darkest shadows in the past,with poligamy and
masacre.anyway,its not fair to punish LDS ,let by gone be by gone.we are not
here to live for yesterday.lets read the book as a history to add to our
knowleges.As i see it,MORMON people mostly good people.they have GOD in their
daily life,i think thats more than enough.lets lead a simple life,then we'll all
have a peacefull mind.i am not LDS,i am CATHOLIC.we are all children of GOD.lets
look forward to the future with bright hope.GOD IS FORGIVING!
I cannot understand why the Indians are getting off on this that they had
nothing to do with the m.m. massacre. OF COURSE THEY DID! Brigham Young even
said they took part in the m.m.m.. We all know that the Indians hated the white
man invading their land. AND the Arkansas wagon train HATED MORMONS! Good grief!
It's obvious what happened. There was a lot of provoking going on from the
Arkansan people and the Indians just let them have it. The Indians could care
less if any of them were woman or children.
And where do you think Brigham Young got all the money to accomplish nice homes
for himself and all his many wives, and economically build the church, as you
say? GEEZE! he got it from hard working Latter Day Saints. Give the LDS saints
some credit! I believe Brigham Young covered his foot prints backwards and
re-wrote and destroyed want he want to on the Mountain Meadows Massacre history
"The Mountain Meadows Massacre" written by Juanita Brooks has long been
considered the benchmark book on this subject. Brooks points out much evidence
documenting the involvement of Indians in the MMM, from the get go. It must be
remembered that in southern Utah, Indians outnumbered white settlers four to one
in 1857.I do not believe the Indians were simply puppets in the
hands of local Mormons in Cedar City, as many today would have us believe. If
anything, it was more the other way around. There is much reason to
believe that Indians played a major role in the MMM. This should not be ignored
or discounted simply for PC reasons. Facts are facts, PC or not.
Mr. R. Turley is just stirring the pot once again. This is not going anywhere.
Mr. Turley should have just left this alone and to rest with history. Besides
LDS church members are bias on who to blame.Lets just leave at this;
Brigham Young made a huge mistake and shifted the blame to his follower John D.
Lee and other loyal LDS members within the church. He did this to save the
church, otherwise the LDS church would have been demolished and dissembled!
John, In my opinion, the Church would be absolutely nuts to try to
cover up something like Brigham Young's hand in the MMM. He accomplished more
for a church and it's people economically over a short period - than anyone to
date Even if he was deceitful, he wasn't stupid and an emotional decision
maker. The whole MMM was a mess up with over zealous people letting emotion take
over. The MMM project has been a multi-year project involving
extremely bright, independent minded scholars, who made it clear upfront that
they were going to be objective regardless. The truth always set us free.
Cover-ups destroy organizations in time.
Ernest T.,So far you have failed to show in any of your posts that
FARMS "spin" or North Temple "spin" (as you would have it) is any different from
your own pontificating. In other words, I might just as freely assert that you
are the spin-doctor. Implicit in your repeated accusations of "spin"
is the hubristic notion that you are somehow a paragon of objectivity. If you
really are such a paragon, I'm sure you'll do us all the courtesy of furnishing
some evidence of it.And btw- it's "prerogative," not "perogitive"
Catholic priests are being prosecuted almost every day for crimes against
children. Does this mean Catholics are bad? No, There are good people and bad
people every where. Get over it. Remember this was over 150 years ago. Any
thing else bad happen in the last 150 years?????
As an LDS missionary in the Mexican desert in 1965 I was on my own to make some
critical decisions which affected all the missionaries in Mexico. We had no
phone. The mission president was hundreds of miles away. He didn't know what
was happening until after the fact.The MMM happened 100 years
earlier in the Utah desert hundreds of miles from BY in SLC--days away by
horseback. They didn't have cars or cellphones. They couldn't call up Brigham
for advice. It's a totally different context than today. Yes, LDS members
follow the Prophet, but we're not robots. I understand, the local
Mormon militia leaders, charged with the job of defending the Mormon settlers
from harm, did what they thought was proper at the moment. They were very
wrong. Their followers followed--They shouldn't have. I've never understood
why the followers did not say, "Wait! This is not right!" Maybe the book will
say.This week the State of Missouri honored General Doniphan for a
life of service, including his refusing to obey a direct military order to
execute Joseph Smith. Very few defended the Mormons back then especially in
Missouri. Mormons were to be exterminated. Good for Doniphan!
I understand that this is one of the sadder moments of Mormon History. However
you cannot change History. Say sorry and move on. None of the people alive today
had anything to do with that invent, although I assume some people would be
close Relatives. No one now alive is to blame. About a year or so ago there was
a TV Docudrama about this incident and quite a stir on my little Island to
discredit it. I caught part of the first installment and changed the station
mostly because it was A. Meaningless and B. Boring. I think I would feel the
same about the book. The White Settlers did some nasty stuff, however so did the
Mexicans and the Indians when they got the chance. History notes that they from
time to time where not kind to one another noting that lets move on. Lots to
Reach and Gospel to Teach.
Certainly the masssacre was outrageus and indefensible, but why are the even
more outrageous and indefensible actions of the people in Arkansas, Missouri,
Illinois and other states against Mormons never mentioned. I don't remember
hearing any apologies from them.
Looking at the behavior of Joseph Smith or Brigham Young in order to determine
if the church is true is a far more complicated exercise than simply reading a
few blog entries or even reading a few books. There are many areas to look at,
the histories, favorable, and unfavorable, the Church and its teachings, the
work left by these men from the Book of Mormon to other institutions and
practices established, and many, many other bits and pieces of "evidence". It is
the totality of all of these things and not anecdotes or instances of reported
behavior. But the main issue that members and non-members have when discussing
these things is that I, as a member, base my truth determinations regarding the
Church on weighing all of this evidence PLUS spiritual or inner experiences I
have had and that is not something that can be weighed or measured, and
non-members are looking a the church with a much more analytical or academic
point of view. Ultimately we're speaking a different language. What this book
seems to be is an attempt to bridge that gap - but I'll have to wait to read
The simple fact that 127 people were murdered with about 70 people perpetrators
and with only one person (the wrong person) being brought to justice with many
local church leaders involved indicates a massive cover up. Given the very
tight control that BY had over the territory it is not much of a stretch to
think he had knowledge of the people involved. That much is not really
disputable. Make your own conclusions...BTW, other books on the
subject do not have the possibility of a conflict of interest, ie., they are not
written by church employees/members.
Rich: So you think BY was involved in Joseph's murder? Right on, bro! I have it
from a credible source that Brigham Young was also involved in the Kennedy and
King assassinations in the 60's, and set in motion the events leading to 9/11.
Well, I can't help but notice that this history is still devoid of a perspective
from the Native Americans for whom the killing was blamed. These "seemingly
good" 'ol boya and gals were willing not only to kill in cold blood, but to
allow their community's cultural prejudices attribute the blame to totally
innocent "neighbors." I think it is adminrable that members of the LDS church
are confronting this and lifting the self-imposed ban on free-speech,
free-thought and free-flow of information, but wouldn't it be even better if
they collaborated with the other victims; the falsely blamed. There are plenty
of native american scholars that would be more than happy to provide their
culture's interpretation of this shared history. Try googling Forrest S. Cuch.
While this may be a good account of church history, it is still tragically
Oh for "Heck" sake. Read the book, Read the Book, read the book. Then JUDGE.lET'S TAKE A POLL HERE, 1, We move on or 2, we whine. I vote to move
Juanita Brooks' book on the subject has to be the best at putting the whole sad
affair in context as she came from down in that area and had access to the
people and records of those involved. I don't see how anyone will ever write a
better account of this tragic event and the revisionists of the 21st century are
left to only speculate as all those involved have passed on. But as Mrs. Brooks
established in her book the world was a different place on the frontier of the
1850s in a very remote Southern Utah, with a Federal Army marching towards it to
put down the perceived "Mormon Rebellion" and survival a daily struggle against
famine, flood, and illness the people of Southern Utah were on edge to say the
least. While innocent in the context of nobody words justify there murder, the
Fancher party didn't do itself any favors but stirring up the feelings of the
locals and Piute and nobody has ever proven they did not "stir the pot." It
should have never happened and those who were involved will have to answer for
their actions. Sometimes excessive stress leads to very tragic decisions;
1. It is beyond doubt that Brigham Young was a very controlling, gruff man. Read
any number of his talks in the JofD and you will quickly get a feel for his
style. Spencer W. Kimball he was not. It is hard to deny that he was NOT a good
leader for a people that were already fearful and persecuted - his personality
only took that to a whole new level. 2. Don't forget how long it
took for information to travel between SLC and S. Utah at that time. It's not
like BY could just send a text or jump on the phone to his leaders in S.
Utah.3. Joseph Smith and Brigham Young at least claimed to have
constant communication with God. I suppose if you believed that it would have
been extra incentive to "blindly follow" the prophet. But for many years Church
leaders haven't even pretended to that kind of personal revelation or
communication and yet members STILL blindly follow. I don't remember the last
time a general authority - let alone prophet - even insinuated they had a visit
with the Lord. And yet we follow without thinking just the same.
You have way too much "faith" in science. Science isn't always knowledge because
what science "knows" is always changing with new discoveries. All science is
incomplete (including DNA science). Science is also often missued (junk
science). Above all else,God requires our faith. Science does not produce
salvation, faith does! The difference you have with those who have faith is that
we believe there are more kinds of knowledge than science produces; revelation.
For example,the word of wisdom (revelation) is years ahead of science and
science is only beginning to catch up! Some of us don't have enough time (life
is too short) to wait that long! So we lean heavily on our faith in the
revelations. Plus all real science will eventually agree with revelations. I
can't wait until science cathes up with the Lord's revelations about how He
created the universe! How does science explain it? Big Bang theory! Now that
takes LOTS of faith!
Aren't we supposed forgive and forget?OR does that just apply to
Yawn.... Yawn.... Hash and rehash, It always seems that the past is
more important that what occurs in the present. Those Spanish inquisitions were
fairly brutal if not worse. I don't see any crying about that. Why? It happened
in the past. Learn from the past, Live in the present!!
Brevet Major J. H. Carleton, U.S.A.May 25, 1859"The Mormons
say the children were in the hands of the Indians and were purchased by them for
rifles, blankets, etc., but the children say they have never lived with the
Indians at all. The Mormons claimed of Dr. Forney sums of money, varying from
$200 to $400, for attending them when sick, for feeding and clothing them, and
for nourishing the infants from the time when they assumed to have purchased
them from the Indians." "Murders of the parents and despoilers of
their property, these Mormons, rather these relentless, incarnate fiends, dared
even to come forward and claim payment for having kept these little ones barely
alive; these helpless orphans whom they themselves had already robbed of their
natural protectors and support. Has there ever been an act which at all equaled
this devilish hardihood in more than devilish effrontery? Never, but one; and
even then the price was but "30 pieces of silver.""
I wouldn't waste a one cent on purchasing and reading this book. From reading
this article, again and again, as history speaks, excuses for the truth.
Religion or not, men of God would not do this, war time or not, true men of God
would not do this and then cover it up and let one man pay the price.
The church has no hidden records. Brigham Young made sure of that. Why do you
think they collect the history from members.
I am not worried about the MMM and who ordered it.I am concerned
with the mindset which caused a group of people to believe the action was
justified. Even more of a worry: does that mindset still exist today? Are
members ready to kill again?
Several have asked why it such an important story. Look closely,
we've got a persecuted religious sect preparing for warfare and mobs with the
U.S. Army driving at them across the plains, with pioneers and a murdered
religious leader and strange reformation-style radical theology and zealotry and
fear of persecution and American indians on the warpath and a weak and slightly
whacko U.S. President...It's just one heckuva story!
To A thinker,You disgrace the moniker you use. Think again.The MMM was not a quick, impulsive, knee-jerk reaction. It was a complex,
deliberately-planned military-like battle plan that took several days to concoct
and carry out.And it didn't happen in Cedar City.Do you
even know what planet you are on?
The major problem with those who are so quick to defend Brigham Young is that
they over look the convenient pages of diaries which seem to directly address
that issue, which had been cut out of the documents of which Mr. Turley admits
is a mystery. Moreover, there missing letters and other documents which others,
at the time, claim to have read or seen, which are also missing. Doesn't that
raise some sort of a red flag. If Brigham Young was so completely innocent, why
would someone go to the effort to remove and destroy documents? As Mr Bagley
indicates, the missing evidence speaks so loudly that it is hard to ignore. So,
to those who jump to the defense of Brigham Young, please explain those types of
seemingly incriminating actions by someone or groups of individuals who seemed
to be worried about what evidence those documents may provide or indicate. Those
sort of actions seem to have been designed to protect someone, otherwise the
question remains as to why.
Back then Utah was still part of the wild wild west.People took the law in to
their own hands and settled problems with their neighbors with the bullet.People
like you and me carried guns and they probably used them more than we think.We
were still a lawless society if you compare it to todays standards weither you
were mormon or not.Yes there may be evidence some day that would point out a
coverup by LDS church leaders but I dont think that would suggest that the
church its self did a coverup.We need to separate the ways of the church from
the ways of the people.Even a prophet is with sin and so are his followers.MMM
was sad.Latter day saints doing bad things.God will judge them for the crimes.
Mormons have a real images problem with both how theye perceive themselves and
how they woul like other people to perceive them. With all the iamage problem
the mormons have I would have to assess that the church is in some real trouble.
What happened back in Ceder City oh so many years ago happened in such a short
time when peoples temper roared, that had any one sought BY's council on the
matter one way or the other they didn't have time for an answer. The
didn't have cell phones back then and it was a a hard three day ride on
horseback just one way. Perhaps the Indians sent a smoke signal!!
D. Michael: Huh?If want to believe there is no spin coming from
North Temple or FARMS that is certainly your perogitive but you're extremely
naive if you believe it doesn't happen.
No man is perfect but the principles as revealed through the Lord to Joseph
Smith are true nothing changes that. All Churches have things in their past that
were not appropriate behavior. The Inquisition and the Crusades are just two
things that come to mind. Only Christ was perfect and he did tell us that the
whole need no physician but those who are sick.
Several on here have made very unsubstantiated declarations that Brigham Young
Had "complete control over the LDS Church" and that he was totally involved
because "he was the churches (sic) leader" and that he definitely knew what was
going to happen and approved it.Prove it or shut up!!
They should let this one die. The mormons have so many PR problems right now it
has do be very embarrassing. Membership is already in a steep decline and these
types of articles and publications will only hurt it further.
Ernest T.,"Spin" is a leitmotif of your posts: FARMS spins, the LDS
Church spins, etc., etc. You are rather generous with your
unsubstantiated tautologies. Unfortunately (or fortunately) they don't prove
Some ask why the church doesn't open its records so they can find out what
really happend?Funny, that without the church records the anti-mormons
would know litte or nothing about the history of the church.Also funny
that its the only history they are interested in knowing. forget the Book of
Mormon and the other latter-day scriptures, the only thing they are looking for
is a club to beat the church over the head with - and they are looking for the
club in the churches own closet.For me, I can only be humbled by the
trials that BY went through, and the leadership he exibited.Where he goes
in the eternities, there I would like to go also.
It is not the mormons who are to blame, it is the federal goverment for
interfering in deseret [utah] national rights. utah was given to the
mormons by God to build up zion, the same as isreal; it is the gentiles who have
come into the land of the mormons who are to blame for everything bad.
Here's a little story"I was once wronged then I forgave. The end"
I recently visited MMM memorial site with my ward youth. The story that the YMs
President read said that Brigham Young sent word to not meddle with the
immigrants. He told them to leave them alone. Even though the immigrants were
from missuri and were claiming they had the gun that killed Joeseph smith and
were doing other things like that to rile the mormons up... Then the my YMs
president said that even though they were mormons and generely good people,
they still messed up and killed innocent people. Sin can take any one if they
We can not understand nor can the authors convey, life 150 years ago.
Personally, I have always wondered, given the occupation and attack of Utah by
the United States during this time, why every single wagon train of these
invaders was not massacred. It is a remarkable demonstration of restraint by
any standard. And, because of this the one event stands out in stark contrast.
We view the center piece and forget the landscape. As to why, the
church and it leaders didn't publicized it-it can never be known. But, a
foreign army on the hill firing off a canon every morning may be some of the
The issue many Mormons on this board don't understand is that we, non-Mormons,
look at the behavior of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young (and those around them)
to see eveidence they were men of God. It influences our thoughts on whether
your church is true or not. In MMM we have a very clearincident in which to
judge early Mormon behavior. For over a hundred years the official church story
was it was done by Indians with an unknown amount of influence from local
Mormons. Now we know it was a completely led Mormon plot to steral and plunder
and MURDER women and children. What was Brigham's influence? At a minimum he
created an atmosphere that led an entire town of Mormons to conspire and plot or
two weeks to murder WOMEN and CHILDREN and these settlers thought that would
please Brigham. At a maximum he ordered it. But because of the massive
cover-up orchestrated by Brigham and continued for over a 100 years we'll never
know his full involvement. We do know he didn't seem to remorseful when he
uttered his "vengance is mine, and I have taken it" comment. I'm not 100%
accurate, but you get the point.
The real problem is organized religion in general.Prophets are
people. People do and say odd things.Scriptures are written by
people, not God.Death, pain, destruction, all in the name of God.
I guess the lesson learned on this issue for me is that I will not reply on the
counsels of my Stake President or Bishop on anything. If I have a doctrinal
question about some idea that a Stake President or Bishop proposes then I'm
going to go to the General Authorities for the mind/will of the Lord. Going to a
Stake President could get me in trouble like happened to the murderer -
participants at Mountain Meadow.
Please stop all this!! It happened. It was terrible. Inocent people died, I
know. But please: put an end. How many mormons died? Lost their houses? How many
mormon women were raped? Are we going to look back over and over? Another book?
How much money are the authors going to earn with it? The church is
growing and well. Be happy and forget.
Let the authors publish their work, read it and make your own decisions
afterwards, then get on with your life and hope nobody researches it later and
has to write all the details good or negative remembered by other people to
satisy someone elses need to know all the stuff you left out when you talked
about your life. Yes, MMM was a very bad incident, the Church has apologized,
what more do people need and want? It's over with, does yammering it to death
make it better or make it go away? It happened! A very long time ago! It
wasn't a good thing! 911 happened but somehow that was a flicker in our PRESENT
that we do know the details about and most people have already chosen to
Go check your World History books, and you will see how difficult it is pinning
down any history. No one will ever know for sure what really happened at MMM,
except those that were there.Everyone, do all your posturing,
suppose this or that, but those who are responsible have probably already been
dealt with.Use it to fuel whatever your needs are.I also
think in those history books you will find many cases where religion has been an
issue in wars, attacks, and other things negative.Too many people
have been killed in God's name, I'm sure he's not happy about it, and has a way
with dealing with it.
Maybe this group of travelers deserved what they got at the hands of members of
a certain church and Indians? Maybe the Indians did all the killing. Maybe the
Indians who did the killing need a monument to their actions.
Did every catholic pedophile priest commit his horrific criminal act with the
knowledge and permission of the pope? No, well then there is no reason to
believe that B.Y. was personally involved in this action. Read "No man knows my
history" and you will see that Mormons were sometimes, even according to
Anti-mormon literature, innocent victims so when they reacted in a panicked
outrageous fashion remember that past behavior by lds-enemies unfortunately did
have something to do with the actions of the mormons, unfortunately in this case
to innocent victims.For a real shocker, read when the Extermination
Order was lifted in Missouri. Yes, it was but a very very short few years
ago.Reality, mormons came into towns and improved the land without
the help that non-mormons expected would be asked (for a price of course.) This
independence self-contained group angered people since they already had eggs in
their baskets from the gains they expected. When this didn't take place they
ran the mormons out and grabbed the improved land. Ah, but many of you chose to
ignore those facts.Me, I'm not mormon but do enjoy history.
It's easy to see the forest for the trees if you want to, but history is a
process of creation as I have been taught in my history pedagogy classes and
people who dig for certain bones always find them whether they represent what
they think they do or not. Assuming that anyone who has a complex view of
history is simply ignorant is simply ignorant as present circumstances show in
the everyday lives of people we see on the news and all around us. "History" is
an action and a reflection of the soul to seek either bitterness and division or
understading and I hope that those who are so sure of themselves about how
history unfolded investigate their motives and self-assuring beliefs just as the
LDS characters are post-humesly asked here. It's not as bald faced as many
would like to believe it is even as critics waiting hourly in great faith that
the faith of others is false. I understand why people might think that Brigham
Young was a corrupt man, but again, I believe it is missinformation and I am to
be as honored and respected for my belief as any other.
What did Young say on his first visit to the site?Is that in the book? If
so, how did they spin it?
My country lived a dark time under a military power for a long time, now young
people talks about that and hate some of them and they werent born that time, I
wish we can look forward thinking to do things better.About MMM, I think
is time to heal, if you are LDS or Not, 'cause here in Utah, you are mormon or
you hate mormons, that's so stupid...THERE IS A TIME WHEN GOD WILL TAKE CHARGE,
WITH JUSTICE...HIS JUSTICE.We must heal, and remember the way you judge
other, you will be judge in the same way.Everyone of us will be judge, LDS
OR NOT, be prepared for that time.For now, forgive, be forgiven, and youll
MMM was a result of religious bigotry and blind obedience to authority.The same horrible things are happening still, with ignorant LDS exercising
religious bigorty and blind obedience to authority in discriminating against
other American citizens in their right to marry whom they want.Ironic for a group who claims they were subjected to religious persecution to
now turn around and use their religion to persecute gay and lesbian people!How absolutely ironic! And hypocritical!
It is hard to follow the logic of some of the TBMs who post on this site, they
profess how they love the Lord and their church but they have no respect or
hunger for truth. How can you love God and not love and want truth. And two
wrongs do not make one right, because other churchs have done terrible things is
not an excuse for mormons to copy them. The devil does all terrible things, so
is that our excuse.
Glad the book is dedicated to the 'victims' because I see all involved as
victims, and fortunately it is the Lord who will judge, not a group of
historians or bloggers.Anybody happen to read the Old Testament lately,
seems the Lord had the Israelites kill every living creature to cleanse the
land, their downfall came when they didn't obey His edict.I wouldn't even
dare, even after a few days, to try to judge what caused this all to happen.
Those involved may have had deep seated experiences we couldn't even imagine
from their days in Missouri and Illinois, and still the others deep seated
hatred and suspicion for things taught by their ministers and clergy about the
Mormons. It was volatile and it caught fire. Amen!
Wake up people, of course Brigham ordered it. Why do you think the US Army was
coming to Utah ? Because of Brighams tight fisted control.
Well said, Fredd. I couldn't agree more.
"finally" a book that tells everyone what we already know about the massacre.
the lds church has said for years that some members in southern utah massacred a
group of people. it was not ordered by the heads of the church or by god. this
falls in line with the book. so yes thank you for wasting my time
Uh-oh! Here we go again . . . Anybody else tired of this retread
To HistorianI don't think you have all your historian facts straight
either. Perhaps you need to go back a study the event(MMM) a bit closer. You are
very bias in what you say for some reason or another. I also believe Brigham
Young was involved. Some historians don't deserve to be called historians.
The most serious blunder made by the Fancher Party was to allow the "missouri
wildcats" to accompany them through Utah, thus unwittingly providing cover for
those vermin. Without the "wildcats", the outcome would have been completely
different.Conspiracy theorists like to have one person to blame.
I'm sorry to disappoint them but Brigham Young, with all his warts, did not
order the massacre.Thanks to the "wildcats", the settlers perceived
the threat to be more than it was and, sadly, reacted to their misperception
with horrible consequences. They will certainly pay the price for their tragic
error in judgment.At this point, the best we can do is understand
what happened and why. Information provided by the researchers in their
forthcoming book will provide the best answers available at this time. We owe
them our gratitude.
I think it is difficult for any institution to "investigate itself". I'm sure
there will be no shortage of people who will dismiss this book, unread, for just
that reason. While such a book will have a point of view that needs to be kept
in mind, it should not be dismissed out of hand. It does represent progress.
As the authors pointed out nobody alive today had anything to do
with the killing. People alive today have had a lot to do with disparaging the
memory of those who were killed insisting that somehow the immigrants "were
asking for it" and whose conduct brought this on themselves. I'm glad to see
the Church repudiating that view as well as the view that this was the work of
the Indians.I also appreciate the fact that the authors acknowledge
that relevant information has been withheld in the vault of the First Presidency
for decades. There are other relevant documents including the letter that local
leaders sent to Brigham Young asking for advice that have disappeared along with
several diary entries of people with knowledge of the event. It would be
interesting to know if they still exist.
Annie and Richard, it was interesting to see your postings one after the other,
because your comments are representative of the two extremes of misinformation
on the history of the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Annie, Brigham Young did not
have complete control over the members of the LDS Church. John D. Lee was only
nine years younger than Young and was one of dozens of men "adopted" into
Young's spiritual family in a practice that many Latter-day Saints briefly
followed at the time. Many men "adopted" other men (as heads of families)during
that period. Historical evidence clearly shows that many, many Latter-day Saints
did not support Young and went against his counsel throughout his tenure.On the other hand, Richard, historical evidence shows that the Arkansas
emigrants did not go through the territory knocking down fences and poisoning
water holes. Even if they did, does that justify the murder of 120 men, women
Whether or not Young delivered the order to murder in the MMM is not entirely
clear. what is clear is that he wanted their livestock stolen before they were
massacred and he led a massive cover up after the deed took place. It is good to
see the church attempt to close the book on this dreadful chapter once again...
yet hard to believe it took so long to release the records they have been
A religious group like the Mormons just don't set out and massacre a group of
people for no reason at all. Something happened back then that has not been
told. I think the wagon train egged it all on. Those Arkansans people were BIG
Mormon haters of the worst kind, as I have read history too. I would like to
know who truly took the first shot? I believe Brigham Young had a strong hand in
the M-M-Massacre--NO DOUBT!
Will the press ever tire of that word? They use it for every possible
circumstance.Try "atrocity" -- a much more appropriate when
describing what happened at Mountain Meadows.
Joseph Smith warned against, "zeal without knowledge." Yet today if you bring
up knowledge, archeology, genetics etc members say they have "faith". They
don't need science. Science is knowledge. Every TBM on these boards who says
they have faith and don't need science is practising "zeal without knowledge"
and would be the type of person to participate in an MMM.
Of course the church will cover for Brigham Young's hand in the MOUNTAIN'S
MEADOWS MASSACRE, because he was the churches leader. The church cannot let a
dark side be known or cast on this so called prophet. What ashame to hide the
I'm very interested in reading this book. This tragedy does not seem to really
be about mormonism at all, rather about human beings in circumstances of extreme
stress and fear. Had these men truly followed the principles taught by the LDS
religion, none of this would have happened. We're all human, regardless of the
religion we claim. Maybe there are lessons we can ALL learn from a tragedy such
as this, then let's move on and be better people because of it.
I have done extensive research on this topic in college and believe that putting
out yet another book is more like a few authors attempt to get some certain
notoriety and money rather than finding "astonishing new evidence only found
here". The massacre was a tragedy and continues to be a scar in the settlers'
past throughout the entire area from AZ through WY and wherever someone hears
about it elsewhere when missionaries are trying to bring their message and
someone has recently read this new book but never really understands persecution
or the social climate of a few settlers having to choose between the surrounding
tribal neighbors trying to live peacably when others of their race come through
knocking down fences and poisoning tribal waterholes ending in the deaths of
several people before the massacre ever happened. I would think it not very
smart to brag about dirty deeds one had done to Mormons when crossing their
lands knocking down fences and making their neighbvors angry who already didn't
trust their kind. We will not understand the dynamics of the social situation
exactly ever so stop stirring the pot for money or notoriety. Everything coming
out now is hypothetical.
Brigham Young was one tough man and he had complete control over the LDS church.
He was in my opinion most definitely involved! Let's get this right and not
shove the entire blame on Brigham Young's adopted son John D. Lee and the rest
of those hard working LDS pioneers, who also all supported Brigham Young
Where are the winners?I only see groups of mostly good people,
except for one, with needs that sometimes compete.1,There are the
descendants and relatives of the victims who would like their kin recognized as
ordinary decent people who didnt deserve the treatment they received.2.There are the relatives and descendants of the perpetrators, participants
and actors who feel a need to defend the reputations of their family heritage
and to minimize this stain.3.There is the need of church leadership
to protect itself and the general church membership from the decades of
significant and unjustified physical, legal, financial, verbal and social
assaults.4There is the general membership who wants the world to
understand this event in the context of the historical settings.5.There are the bigoted ardent opponents to the church who could care less if
Brigham Young was involved or not. They are only seeking for issues to continue
their quest to destroy the church as an organization and people. Any anomaly
will do, real or contrived, as they have an agenda that is much bigger than the
issue at hand and have no interest in the truth or fairness.
Even after exhaustive research, some will still not see the light. Not because
it's not there, but because they refuse to. If one refuses to believe regardless
of the amount of irrefutable evidence presented, the only ones who are edified
by it are those who choose to believe it. No amount of evidence,
support, documentation or substantiation will ever provide enough "proof" to
someone who is so steeped in their hate for any thing to convince them
otherwise. They will stand in the sunlight and deny its existence. But we believe in free agency to let them choose to believe/disbelieve what
they will. Yet, with free agency comes responsibility and an accounting will be
required at some point. There may or may not be more to learn on this subject,
but it is a beg step for the Church to admit some culpability, take the heat and
move on positively. All men are fallible. Only God and His Church are not. Let the past - and the hate - go. Forgive men their trespasses. God
will take care of the rest.
Thank you. May this be the final word. Excellent scholarship for all to
Even if Brigham Young did not directly order the massacre, he certainly covered
it up and certainly FAILED to manage and control official local leaders of his
Church. At very least, he was guilty of a coverup and guilty of NEGLIGENCE as
the Chief Officer of the Church at that time.More importantly, the
local leaders explicitly claimed they were acting under what they considered to
be orders from Church headquarters! They sincerely believed they were carrying
out God's will as it came to them through the Prophet and the Church chain of
command! Most of them (especially John D. Lee) were sickened by what they
thought they were being asked to do, but they exercised faith in their leaders
-- looking back we can call it blind and murderous faith, but at the time, they
thought they were being truly faithful!How different is that to the
blind faith Church members are expected to exercise in trying fight against
same-sex marriage?No matter how you look at it, the idea of
following your local (or general) Church leaders without question is DANGEROUS!
How many more people's lives must be destroyed before Latter-day Saints learn
that important lesson?!
Does anyone really think that things are different now than they were then?
Things are still being covered up. Not by the church but by the men! Not by the
devil but by men! Not by the good men but by the bad men. And it should
stop!"It is the nature and disposition of : 'almost all men'" as it
is written in the D. and C. "as soon as they get a little authority...they begin
to exercize unrighteous dominion over their fellow men.What men do
does not change one whit the gospel of Jesus Christ. It does give one pause
however. Why are men so greedy, selfish, power hungry? Especially those in
positions of power in governments, business or churchs.Please don't
blame it on the devil.Blame it on the mother in law if you want but
not the devil.
I think it sounds like a fascinating book. I intend to read it before making up
my mind about this subject. I particularly liked Barlow's comment about the
Church being comprised of normal humanity, trying to respond to the Divine,
rather than being Divine in and of itself (with a few warts and wrinkles or
course). I certainly have never felt divine, but I have tried to respond to the
Divine to the best of my ability.
Brigham Young and the members of the LDS church were paranoid, and that is why
the massacre happened. Nothing more to be said.
From the article's conclusion: "[Ron] Walker said he's come to see the
massacre as a cautionary tale in making judgments about those who are
different.""It's a primer to teach us about humility and
long-suffering. ... It's a case-study in how not to apply religion and how one
should apply true religion in one's own life," he said."From the
looks of the comments so far, I think Walker's conclusion hits the nail on the
I hope that this book and the Joseph Smith papers truly begin a new era of
honesty for the Church. It may result in some lost testimonies that have been
built on a very different version of our history. But it will move us into a
future of new testimonies built upon truth. Built upon a different origin and
history than many of us learned in seminary and our living rooms but at least an
honest one. I forsee my grandchildren in an LDS Church that emphasizes the
atonement and the Savior with much less emphasis on our origins and early
teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young which can be so problematic and
I can't help but think of the catholic church leaders and what they did in their
time as spirtual leaders not only these two christion sects - pretty wicked .
What makes these HUMANS think they are exempt ? All will be known when it is
over. Now to search for a human who is PERFECT and still on earth.
I hope the LDS church doesn't cover Brigham Young's tracks in his involvement in
the Mountains Meadows massacre, so there can be peace for all and the blame not
shoved completely to just the men involved. I really dislike
cowards.Nevertheless, I will by the book. I hope to find that it has been
written truthfully and not cowardly.
I can't help but think of the cathlick church leaders and what they did in their
time as spirtual leaders not only these two christion sects - pretty wicked .
What makes these HUMANS think they are exempt ? All will be known when it is
over. Now to search for a human who is PERFECT and still on earth.
What happens..People have been looking for over a hundred years to
find evidence Brigham ordered the attack. No one, even the biggest critics of
the church have found any concrete evidence. These 3 were told to
find and write the truth. It is obvious that they are telling what they believe
to be true. People on both sides have distorted the truth over the years. It is
refreshing to see what they have written. Some previews have been made public,
and they have been very, very interesting to read.What is
interesting is the modivations of what happened. Utah was at war with the
federal government. Mistakes were made. People were killed. The real tragedy was
the massacre itself was a local cover-up. It was bad enough for the initial
shooting, but the rounding up and killing most of the rest was the worst part.
The only reason to bring this up, after so many years, in my
opinion, is to learn from the past. These were asked to help for us to do that.
Too many other writers have had one or two reasons for writing.
Defend or tear down the church. Lets move past that.
This was a very good article...I have been a member for over 11yrs now and since
I have learned about the tragedy, I have felt that Brigham did have something to
do with this. I also believe that Brigham had something to do with Jospeh murder
too. Brigham did a lot of damage to the church. Granted he was able to get
people out west but that is about all good he did...
I look forward to reading the book next month. Much credit should go to Juanita
Brooks, the first author to research the Mountain Meadows events and write a
credible history of it. Much of what she wrote has since been updated, but the
basic story she told is the foundation for all later history, including the one
that is the subject of this story. One part of the modern story
could have been covered in this article, but wasn't: how the modern church has
changed its attitude toward the massacre and allowed its historians to use
heretofore protected documents. This article refers to the newly released
documents as coming from "the first presidency's vault", but does not tell us
how they came to be released. Juanita Brooks mentioned in the forward of her
book that Presidents McKay and Clarke would not allow her to review them, and
criticized them for it. But things have changed, obviously, and why they have
changed, as well as the discussions between today's church leadership that have
brought the new documents to light, would make a very interesting story, one
that everyone could learn from.
"What happens...", please remember that YEARS of research went into this book,
and it is VERY well documented so anybody will be able to discover the truth
about this subject. Of course there will be those who will not accept the truth
and continue to spread lies, so yes, many may call this a "cover up." But I know
Richard Turley well enough to know that he is an especially honest man, and his
hard work has uncovered some sad things, but nothing that implicates Brigham
Young ordered the massacre. Read the book yourself, research the given evidence,
and pass the suggestion on to those others who make immediate judgment without
Sounds like what you are saying is that the mormon church is your church right
or wrong. So what if it is just plain old the wrong church do you still stay
with it no matter what.
I am looking forward to reading this book. I had an ancestor who may have been
involved in the massacre, and I have also heard from many old timers who have
said an believed Brigham Young was involved in the massacre. Will we ever learn
this is new to me,i am not LDS.but i am interested to know more about the
story.i want to know what the reasons behind the cruel massacre?why nobody dare
to stand up and speak the truth?i cant wait to read the book.
To the Bush-Wacking, Back-Stabbing, Lying, Mormon Cult-ure; we don't get mad, we
"What happens" is correct. The biggest mistake these authors made was not to
include a reputable non-LDS western history scholar on this project. The fact
that the project spent millions that could only have been authorized by the most
senior LDS officials will just heighten the suspicion.It will be
interesting to see if the scholarly history journals even review it.
The "church" finally admitted their involvement in the massacre and they
apologized. Clearing the names of the Indian tribes they blamed. It is a time
to heal and a time to move forward. But, this new evidence begs what other
information that "has never before been available to researchers" is in the
archives owned by the LDS church, and will they allow others researchers examine
Our family is grateful to these researchers.They are a much more
trustworthy source than several who have published their interpretations in the
past.We look forward to the book.
how about 'slaughter'?
Yeah, and the Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, Adventists, Methodists, etc. never
had an a handful of drunk, vengeful wild men (like Lee) in their congregations?
Yeah, and so these religions never had anyone in their groups seek
revenge toward people who might have been part of mobs who ran them out of their
home a couple of years earlier?Yeah, and what are the REAL MOTIVES
of the authors of this book? Are they not doing on white pages to the Mormon
Church what the Missouri mobs did a couple year's earlier to Lee's friends and
relatives? A term comes to mind: "Gotcha' journalism" for a few days of fame and
a few sheckles.
Seriously...get over it and pop your Mormon bubble. It is insane to me that the
LDS spend so much time working out every single detail of their past. It is
what it is. It can't be changed. Different authors using different words can't
change what happened... so get over it. Scripture tells me that our Heavenly
Father could care less about yesterday. His concern is for your today and the
plans He has for your tomorrow - to give you a hope and a future.
The devil made them do it!!!!
As objective as this book seems to be, there will never be a full answer. It
looks like people who had recently been persecuted perceived a threat and
resorted to a preemptive attack before attempting diplomacy. We weren't there,
we don't understand what persecution and murder of family and friends can do to
our emotions, and we will struggle to understand irrational behavior. I wait to
read the comments of those who will impose today's understanding on a 150 year
old event, and conclude that a coverup continues.
People can speculate all they want that Brigham Young was involve with the
massacre, but the fact is that the evidence just ISN'T THERE! In fact, it is
just the opposite. Of course, it was a terrible tragedy and those
involved have a lot to answer for. However, this thing didn't happen in a
vaccuum. There were a lot of surrounding circumstances and factors that lead
the terrible decision that these pioneers made.The whole thing is so
sad, but I hope the descendants of this groups can finally move on and get over
this.The bottom line is that the Church leadership in Salt Lake,
including Brigham Young, had nothing to do with this. It was the actions of a
few frightened, misguided individuals in Southern Utah. I hope we
all can move on now.
Enough of the self-flagellation! It's like Mormons are being to write Communist
style confessions over and over again about what terrible people we are because
our persecuted ancestors finally hit back. Yes, they tried to cover
it up. No, they didn't do it again...unlike the mobs in Illinois and Missouri.
It was a mistake, not a sign of the character of the people. Let it
Anyone who has studied utah mormon history has learned that BY's hands are not
all clean of the MMM. Why all the white wash, why not open the church records to
true indepentend researchers for writting of an accurate account of history. The
last time the church did so Fawn M. Brodie was able to produce historical
information that was helpful in revealing mormon history. It is like the mormon
church thinks it can get to heaven on a carpet of lies. They are as bad, or
worse than the washington polititions. Where is God in all of this.
About the issue of Brigham Young's role:I think that to some people,
Brigham Young will always be the ultimate culprit. Others wouldn't want to admit
it, no matter what.I myself think that, although he was a prophet,
he also was a human being, and, being far removed from the center, his ability
to anticipate what would ensue can be a subject for speculation. We can't know
the emotions he had; did they cloud his reasoning or prevent him from paying
attention to more or less subtle warnings? We can't know for sure.I
want to read the book and digest it. It's encouraging to me that there is a
strong commitment to honesty at the highest levels of the Church.And, as humans, we must be able to learn to forgive. I live in a country that
has been run over by aggressive neighbors, but I don't hold our current
neighbors responsible for the acts of their forbears. Bearing grudges and
harboring thoughts of revenge never did anybody any good.
The historians say that in the 19th century the MMM was used as a club to try
and injure and destroy the church. Nothing has changed. Watch as the
enemies of the church start pouring venom into these comments, as seen already
in the second comment. I certainly won't be watching. I will be entirely
ignoring the comments. If I want to know more, I'll read the book and not the
comments.There is no excuse for the MMM. An explanation, perhaps,
but not an excuse.There is also no reason to continue using MMM as a
club any more than we need to use the Camp Grant Massacre as a club against the
government of Tucson, AZ. After all, over 100 innocent women and children were
killed by a mob led by a mayor of Tucson. The city government must be trying to
cover up its involvement in that massacre. Let's force the
government of Tucson to issue a yearly apology for the Camp Grant Massacre.
GOD made them do it!!!!
What happens,"if they find evidence that positively reveals that
Brigham Young directly ordered the massacre?"Then they will publish
it. It would be good for the Church, its member and the public to know all the
facts regardless of who is to blame. "What will the Church do? What
will the membership do?"We will add one more thing to the list of
sins and weaknesses of Brigham Young who is not perfect and who lived in his
time. Now, if there is ever proof that God is the one who ordered Young to order
the massacre we might have serious doctrinal issues to deal with since we teach
that God is perfect and therefore he wouldn't order a massacre of innocent
people."What if they find evidence indicating only a cover-up?"Then they will add that to the list instead of an actual ordering of the
massacre by general Church leaders."Even if no evidence is found
that implicates Brigham Young then the public may think this is all just a
modern day cover up sponsored by the church."The public can think
whatever it wants but it also needs to meet its burden of proof.
I personally know Rick Turley and have been aware of his involvement on this
project for the past five years. This book was supposed to be finished a long
time ago, but the authors found more information than they ever anticipated and
it kept pushing back the publication date. I'm very anxious to
finally read their book. I know that they have gone to GREAT LENGTHS to
research every detail and undoubtably this will be the most comprehensive
account ever written.
Replying to What happens..., it has been known for some time (by fair-minded
historians) that Brigham Young did not order the massacre. What this article
stated is that his wartime, bellicose language contributed to the environment
that led to the decision by local leaders to carry out the massacre. And that's
nothing new. And its a timely warning for us all. We know that Brigham said a
lot of things during his lifetime that were not inspired. We can't claim he
never said them. Truth is what it is. As a lifelong member, and one who loves
history, I'm glad the book was written with the cooperation and encouragement of
the First Presidency. Being honest about past mistakes is not going to harm us
today. No enemy will be persuaded, perhaps, but no friend will be repulsed.
For everyone not dedicated to finding fault with the Church ... life will go
right on.Most will continue to live the best lives they can, repent,
forgive, try to follow the Savior.It's not our place to judge. The Lord
knows.MMM is not a stain on anyone living today, and on only a very few
back then.Like all mistakes made by other mortals, it's not worth
As a foreign born missionary called to serve in California, I remember how
shocked I was after learning for the first time of this tragedy from my
companion from Southern Utah. What I also felt was tragic was the line he took
of "They had it coming". He would have pulled the trigger too and followed the
line of authority as he saw it. Very sad. The top leadership of the Church may
not have been involved before the massacre but logic says they must have got
involved with "protection" afterwards with only one person being punished.
They've already discovered that there is absolutely no evidence that Brigham
Young directly ordered the massacre, and in fact a lot of evidence that points
to the idea that he tried to stop it, but didn't reach them in time. There are
multiple journal accounts and stories passed down through the generations by the
messenger sent to SLC to ask BY whether or not they should go through with the
massacre, and BY's reply to the horrified negative, and also similar stories
told by BY's maid and others.The idea that he possibly helped to
cover up the crimes is another story. They are still researching that aspect of
it, and what they may find may be troubling to some members of the church. I
certainly don't know how I'd feel about it, learning that a president of the
church helped cover up a massacre. Unfortunately, much of the evidence is not
something we, as normal people researching online or in the library, can find.
But these professional researchers are finding it, and eventually, we'll know
the truth of that part as well, whatever it may be.
This book will no doubt stir up the exact same debate every previous book on the
subject has stirred up before. Some will argue one point, others will argue
another point. Then, in a short time, everyone will move on and get
back to other questions of history, such as who really shot JFK, did Elvis
really die in 1977, was Monticello just an 18th century version of the Playboy
Mansion, and of course, did George Washington really cut down that cherry tree?
If Will Bagley couldn't find a "smoking gun" what makes you think any legitimate
historian?I agree it's a no win situation. But at least the LDS
Church is doing what they can to acknowledge what happened. Of
course, I know some people won't be satisfied until President Monson holds a
news conference and says, "OK, We admit it! Brigham Young ordered the MMM. Now
we will everyone please form a line so we can start handing out the checks."
As I've looked into this horrible and unjustified event in LDS history, I've
contemplated what it would be like at the judgement seat, when we all stand in
front of our Maker and give an accounting of our lives. Those involved in this
event will have this opportunity just like everyone else. They will answer to
the n'th degree, UNLESS they take advantage of the Lord's atonement. There is no
escaping justice for mercy cannot rob justice. Repentance is their only hope as
it is with us all.Many who have angst against the church have looked
at this event with over-zealous outrage, and have used it to further their goal
of humiliating the members. Anyone who would try to sweep this event under the
rug for fear of it ruining testimonies or causing people to question the
truthfulness of the church are without faith. I fully understand the weakness of
men, the influence of satan, and the holes we dig for ourselves. This is the
very purpose of the Atonement and it isn't our place to judge. For you
conspiracy theorists who want to denigrate the church, I say you are no better
than the Mountain Massacre men.
if they find evidence that positively reveals that Brigham Young directly
ordered the massacre?What will the Church do? What will the
membership do?What if they find evidence indicating only a
cover-up?Even if no evidence is found that implicates Brigham Young
then the public may think this is all just a modern day cover up sponsored by
the church.Its a no win situation.
My wife and I recently visited the massacre site and were pleased to see the
recently dedicated monument. We also went to the hill overlooking the valley
where we read the names of those who were the victims and looked through the
siting tubes to see both the site of the siege and of the massacre. Later, we
went to Lees Ferry and saw where John D. Lee lived in hiding until he was
arrested, incarcerated and later shot as the only person ever convicted of any
crime in the massacre. I am looking forward to reading the first book and the