Deseret News | Reader comments: De-flated: With soccer popular among boys, why only one NCAA-sanctioned men's team in Utah?

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De-flated: With soccer popular among boys, why only one NCAA-sanctioned men's team in Utah?

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Soccer Bob | 12:50 a.m. July 12, 2008

Title IX and Economics... If it doesn't pay, they don't play.

Ace Ventura | 1:36 a.m. July 12, 2008

Ah, yes...political correctness reigns. Chris Hill knows full well that Title IX is the culprit, and so does every other university AD in the state. And it's not just soccer. Although BYU has never fielded an NCAA-level men's soccer team, it used to have stellar programs in men's wrestling and gymnastics. As Mr. Hill notes, it's very costly to gen up a program from scratch, but these were two programs that were fielding highly competitive teams year after year that fell prey to Title IX "equality". BYU made the decision in 1999 to terminate those programs because other Mountain West schools dropped their programs to balance the slate. Any one who says otherwise needs to check their history.

I think it's truly exciting to see the rise in women's NCAA sports, but we didn't need to toss out the baby with the bath water. This doesn't need to be a "zero sum" scenario, where you have to hurt men's sports to boost women's. The point the article makes is spot on--college-bound men who are wrestlers, gymnasts or soccer players have dramatically reduced choices when it comes to scholarships, which saddens me. They're all great sports with great athletes.

Anonymous | 6:24 a.m. July 12, 2008

What about baseball?
They don't make much money

Comments continue below

More to do with Title IX | 6:45 a.m. July 12, 2008

Most sports in college do not make any money, so the excuse cannot be economics, since other money loser sports are played. It all has to do with Title IX. The story says that it isn't all title IX since many other leagues do not offer mens soccer. They do not offer mens soccer due to title IX. Soccer is popular across the country, but until we do something about the arcane Title IX, mens soccer will not be played in college.

Laurels | 6:51 a.m. July 12, 2008

Westminster gives mens soccer scholarships. My son currently has a soccer scholarship at Westminster. At the time he graduated from High School, Westminster was the ONLY mens program in the state that gave scholarships for mens soccer. That changes this year with the advent of the NCAA D-2 Dixie College program.

Even though Westminster is NAIA, they are not associated with a conference, and their coach puts together their schedule each year such that they not only play NAIA teams but also several NCAA programs. The team currently has players who have transferred from playing for NCAA D-1 programs for a variety of reasons, e.g. desire to be closer to home, out-of-state costs, etc.

My son had several NCAA programs offer him scholarships (D-1, D-2), but as noted in the article, the scholarship money for mens soccer doesn't cover a large percentage of the out-of-state tuition and living costs.

Westminster has been generous with academic money as well as the soccer money. They are a phenomenal academic institution. It's been a great college choice for my son, both academically and athletically.

Sad to see. | 6:59 a.m. July 12, 2008

It's sad that the most popular sport in the world has so little support here in the united states. The main problem is that Division IA schools can offer 85 football scholarships. That is such a huge number for the schools to try to provide equal opportunity in order to comply with title IX. The schools just use the excuse that these programs don't make money, when really they don't even want to give them a chance. You can't tell me that 11 of those 85 scholarships couldn't be taken from football and given to soccer, and both programs couldn't still have success. Especially if they did this in all universities.

Anonymous | 7:30 a.m. July 12, 2008

i didn't even need to read the article:

title IX.. not that hard to figure out!

back in the day | 7:57 a.m. July 12, 2008

Back in the day, BYU had a wrastling and gymnastics team too but they were also 86'd by Title IX.

cost | 8:05 a.m. July 12, 2008

Here is what I believe it used to cost to have NCAA soccer at BYU: uniforms, use of a van or two for 3 or 4 road trips, gas, cheap motel rooms (or dorms at the school we played), and a coach. The coach was also a PE person if I can remember right and ran a camp in the summer. It doesn't seem that expensive.

Is it possible that there aren't enough women's sports or sports interest to enable equality with men's sports? Is the issue that we have to be equal, even if it means that men's sports have to be dropped so that there aren't more men's sports than women's sports?

Anonymous | 8:23 a.m. July 12, 2008

Yes, Title IX and Economics. The cost of Football and Basketball is incredible. Coaches, travel expenses, team expenses, and a new stadium carry a huge price tag.

Why do sports need to be NCAA? Perhaps it is time to look at what BYU Idaho did. They cut all NCAA sports and put the money into intramural sports and other student activities. Now instead of one basketball and one football team that benefits only a handful, every student can participate on a team. I believe their model is the future of college sports where everyone competes and benefits. The side benefit is they no longer have all the academic problems and other problems caused by NCAA sports.

Club sports is another great model. The BYU soccer club uses it effectively. UVU has a fantastic Hockey team that is a club. Great attendance and exciting play.

Go Team!!! | 8:34 a.m. July 12, 2008

Collegiate soccer is an exciting event. Tens of Americans can't be wrong.

Serious | 9:04 a.m. July 12, 2008

Title IX is absolutely the reason Utah's colleges don't have mens programs. What are you going to see BYU drop their nationally dominant Volleyball team to pick up school sponsored Soccer? No way. How bout give up their wrestling program? O wait, they already did that and they stil don't have room for soccer, or rugby, or any other sports where locally Utahns excel.

Soccer is a hard add on because who are you going to compete against? Nobody has the programs, and the reason nobody has the programs is because of Title IX.

Now tell me where the equality is when 70% of boys participate in sports actively while only 20% of girls do, yet college sports need to offer an equal number of scholarships to boys and girls?

College sports and scholarship requirements should be up to the university. It should be based on demand for the sport, the amount of success and revenue it could bring to the University, and not because of some government regulation.

Title 9 promotes discrimination, not equality.

RE: Soccer Bob | 10:07 a.m. July 12, 2008

Sad, but true.

Soccer Steve | 10:14 a.m. July 12, 2008

Title IX. Men's Soccer could probably pay for itself with the right marketing. The problem is all the women's sports that don't generate ANY revenue, but have to be there because of title IX.

New blood | 10:16 a.m. July 12, 2008

More than anything I think soccer isn't an NCAA sport because too many administrators are "old school". They gre up on baseball and football and they just can't wrap their minds around soccer. Let's hope the next generation which has grown up on soccer makes better decisions.

The fact we don't have more NCAA men's soccer teams is getting ridiculous. So many talented soccer players are losing out because of this. It's the most played youth sport in our country. Let's get with the times!

byu soccer | 10:47 a.m. July 12, 2008

BYU did play NCAA soccer back in the day. Coach Dusara led that team in the 70's and 80's.

California | 10:54 a.m. July 12, 2008

I agree with Soccer Bob. Title IX is the primary cause of the reduction of certain men's sports at Universities. That is the cost of equality. Wrestling was another sport that went by the wayside at many institutions.

Most all universities are very careful to show a balance between the number of men and women's sports so as to avoid even the appearance of preference. What university wants to be exposed to the wrath of the NCAA and negative national publicity.

A school could add another men's sport to its program by either adding another women's sport or deleting one of the men's. Life is full of choices.

That being said it allows my family of girls to play Division 1 soccer.

Is it fair?

Simple fact | 10:58 a.m. July 12, 2008

The truely great American men players coming out of high school go to Europe and if they are good enough play in the European circuit. Most guys I know even in college,UCSB, UCLA, Duke, etc. Stay maybe a year or two in college and jump to the pros. These guys in college don't plan on staying long.

Soccer Coach For 25 years | 11:14 a.m. July 12, 2008

I've coached high school soccer, collegiate soccer and club soccer for 25 years. I've worked closely with athletic directors of three major univerisities, two of which are Utah schools.

I appreciate the reasoning Chris Hill gives for not sponsoring men's soccer. They are legitimate excuses. Money, facilities, employees. However, there is one important factor that neither Chris nor this article addressed.

Instiutional Bias.

Boiling just under the radar are over forty years of it. In the late seventies and early eighties when the soccer movement began its thirty year explosvie growth among youth and high school aged players, football coaches saw the sport as a competitive drain on their programs. They were losing a few good athletes. Players with coodination. Players with speed. The bias continued into the professional ranks where the sport was viewed as a potential revenue loss if allowed to grow.

Football coaches were very cool to any ideas that would allow the growth of men's soccer in colleges. Women's soccer, on the other hand, is a savior. Allowing a sport with large rosters and scholarships to offset the football rosters.

Across the country most College ADs are former football coaches.

You can connect the other dots.

Don't believe it | 11:12 a.m. July 12, 2008

BYU got rid of Wrestling because they wanted to, don't blame it on title IX. If that were the case why does, Iowa, Oklahoma, Penn State, Michigan, Boise state, Iowa State, Lehigh, Oklahoma State, Ohio State, Stanford, Wisconsin, Arizona State.... I can go on and on, still have wrestling, why didn't title IX affect hundreds of other schools.
Athletic directors use title IX for any program they want to get rid of. That way they don't take any heat. BYU could have kept wrestling, no problem, as a matter of fact being a private school they don't even have to follow the title IX rules as much as state funded universities. ASU tried to drop wrestling two months ago and the people of Arizona threw such a fit they kept it. Title IX or no title IX.

Re;Go team!!! | 11:17 a.m. July 12, 2008

Soccer will generate more fans in the future than any other sport outside of football and basketball in the very near future. There are millions of people now that have grown up playing the game, yes in America and they have very good soccer IQ's. Just wait, if I'm an athletic director I'm definately keeping soccer at my school. In Utah alone there are more soccer players per capita than anywhere in the USA.
It's here to stay like it or not.

Soccer Coach for 25 Years | 11:21 a.m. July 12, 2008

Or I'll connect a few dots...

Chris Hill offers some excellent reasons why men's soccer is not sponsored by Utah colleges and universities. Cost, facilities, personell.

One local university was able to cover all their operating costs through outside donations and gate revenues. They were turned down.

A few years ago, the men's soccer program at another local university earned the 3rd largest gate receipt on campus behind men's football and basketball. The income reached close to $100,000.000 a year. With the potential for more growth. Again the university turned away the program and let it flouder, financially, for a number of years until it was recently resusciated.

Chris Hill is a soccer fan. He loves the game. His daughter is a player. I'm sure he would support a men's program if he believed it was viable. The problem is that at most other institutions where football rules and where athletic directors hold outdated but deeply rooted bias, there is little motivation to find solutions to the costs and facilities needed to sponsor a college men's soccer program. Instead, there is the same chorus we've heard for thirty years....

no one else is sponsoring a team so we won't either.

Soccer Coach for 25 Years | 11:25 a.m. July 12, 2008

I agree with Anonymous. The BYU Idaho model is wonderful. It would be something if BYU dropped its NCAA sports and went completely intramural. What a major change.

I've heard that it is likely not a possibility since so many donors identify with the sports programs, particularly football and basketball. When BYU wins donations are up. When BYU loses donations are down. What we don't know is if there were no wins and loses what would happen to the donations. Maybe the school financial guys should put more faith in their donnors. If they didn't have to worry about down years, maybe that would offset the peaks of the high income years when the teams are winning.

eliminate T-9 | 11:26 a.m. July 12, 2008

Title 9 is discrimination. If folks were really concerned they would change it. But they are not. Equality is a big lie. If you have to punish people for you to feel equal you have serious social problems.

Shogakkin | 11:53 a.m. July 12, 2008

I don't see in this story any mention of why Clay Christenson wants to go to college, except to play soccer. No discussion of what he wants to study or his plans for learning something. If there are no soccer scholarships, too bad. Most kids--even very talented ones--don't get paid to go to college to do what they are there for, whether they are majoring in music, chemistry, theater, foreign languages, physics, or education, and certainly not for most of the extracurricular activities they pursue.

And, what's with the word "scholarship"? There is noting the least bit scholarly about them.

Too bad we have so many scholarships for basketball and football.

I know this will goad the athletic junkies, but there are other things to do in college than play games on a field. Soccer is a nice thing, but it's not what school is for.

***

Knowledgable | 12:00 p.m. July 12, 2008

To "Ace Ventura": BYU fielded an NCAA-sanctioned men's soccer team in the 70s and 80s, as "byu soccer" correctly stated. Coach Dusara was fired (rightfully so), and BYU found an opportunity to move the program to club status, where the team dominated, much as the men's volleyball team did before its move to NCAA status.

The team's current status is absolutely all about Title IX. BYU has been formally offered funds by wealthy donors interested in seeing a return to Division I status. Moreover, former players and coaches have offered to operate a program at rock-bottom costs -- without scholarships -- to help offset the cost to the athletic department. BYU men's soccer would be a Top 20 Division I team year in and year out without any scholarship players. The quality is there, but the administration feels its hands are tied.

For now, the program receives good support to play in the PDL, which is actually a step up from most college programs. The current team is young, but continues to win and has a bright future. Coach Watkins is leading the program in the right direction.

Norm | 12:10 p.m. July 12, 2008

Before praising the BYU Idaho model too much, please investigate the many costs and challenges faced by the program. I prefer the European model where sports are played at the club level.

Knowledgable | 12:27 p.m. July 12, 2008

I'm waiting for my previous comments to appear on this post, which provide a concise and accurate history of what has happened over the years. Bottom line: it is absolutely all about Title IX. "Soccer Coach for 25 Years" knows all about it, too. Good to see your post, my friend. Nice comments.

soocer facts | 12:33 p.m. July 12, 2008

I hate to break it to you but as good as Utah thinks they are when it comes to soccer the state lags behind other states. If you look at the Western regionals for youth soccer, Utah did not have a single winner in any age category. The young man from Jordan High School sounds like a good player, but when compared with other players from other states, he is just average. Utah will have to embrace year round soccer before it will truly be able to compete with other states and their soccer programs. Big name universities recruit at regionals. They do not watch or even attend high school games. If you want to do well and land at a good program you must play well at regionals. NCAA divison one programs also look at the success of ODP programs. Utah's program is weak when matched against other programs. If Utah wants to take their game to the next level, they are going to have to well at these two venues.

Re: Shogakkin | 12:32 p.m. July 12, 2008

I am on a partial scholarship at a top institution to play soccer- I have a 3.63, as a neuroscience major and the team average is a 3.05.

I would say that we take academics just as seriously as non-athletes if not more, especially with in the realm of the soccer team. Soccer is a game of intellect and most successful players that I know partner their skills with great GPAs in high school much more so than any football or basketball team average I am sure. This allows them to embody and plethora of options if schools don't come knocking during the recruiting process.

You are right school is for school, but soccer is outstanding for personal growth and a number of other necessary communication and relationship skills.

I guarantee, that if you gave Clay the chance, he would be able to outline everything he wants to do academically and my guess is that he might have a higher GPA than you would expect (maybe even higher than yours in college my friend)

Willie | 1:44 p.m. July 12, 2008

I'd rather watch the local women's college teams play any day.

European football | 2:17 p.m. July 12, 2008

Watching men in shorts running up and down kicking a ball, falling down and writhing in pain (Ever watch a baseball palyer who has been hit by a 97 mph fastball?) then pulling his shirt up over his head when there is an infrequent score. Soccer gives boring a bad name. Don't spend university or tax payer dollars on such rubbish. If title IX is the reason for collegiate soccer's demise, it has done something good.

willie | 2:48 p.m. July 12, 2008

Have you ever seen a mens college soccer game?

I agree with the comments made about bias and and athletic directors being old school. It's like my dad he wont even watch a game he would rather watch baseball. Hopefully the next generation of athletes will fix this problem of bias and unequality as they become the athletic directors and leaders of our collegiate schools.

Re european football | 2:57 p.m. July 12, 2008

you are probably over the age of 40. Baseball is not a true athletes game most of the players are overweight. face the facts soccer is here you are going to have to let go of your bias and watch a true athletes game.

It is the most popular sport in the WORLD for a reason.

europe football = #1 | 3:00 p.m. July 12, 2008

If you want to bash you are going to have to learn to take some bashing considering baseball after the beijing olympics isn't even going to be featured in the olympics.. Sad i know but arrogant americans will have to eventually realize that their sports like baseball and football aren't that great.

Realist | 3:18 p.m. July 12, 2008

Where I went to highschool--in Utah valley--one played soccer because he couldn't make any of the cooler sports teams (totally different witht e women's team). That's still okay, it's just that all you soccer nuts out there need to accept the fact that Americans don't like to watch soccer. We have manlier sports to consume our time. Soccer is becoming more popular in the US, in direct proportion to the Spanish language becoming more spoken here. NCAA soccer would never be financially viable. And worse, it will never be interesting to watch.

Soccer #1? | 3:26 p.m. July 12, 2008

The only reason soccer is the most popular game in the world is that it's the only game most countries can afford to play. Here in the US where we have our choice in sports, most young men leave little league soccer for more interesting sports like football as they grow up

Shogakkin again | 3:24 p.m. July 12, 2008

I did not argue that athletes are dumb in my post. I just said soccer--and other sports--are part of a range of extracurricular activities that can be available to college students. I see no reason to privilege any sport with scholarships at the expense of other worthy activities.

My picking on the lack of discussion of Clay Christenson's academic goals has more to do with the (morbidly?) rabid attention that sports get when we talk about college.

I am delighted that you make good grades in neuroscience, but so do a lot of your classmates who do NOT get scholarships for their extracurricular activities.

Yes, dedication in sports and application of the principles and strategies one learns in them can and do contribute to success in classwork, but so do playing the guitar, or working on car engines or other mechanical projects, or rock climbing, or choral music, or dance, or writing.

Sports has no exclusive magical ability to make people smarter than any other activities that demand real devotion.

So, what I was saying, is that the notion of all these college scholarships for sports without comparable numbers for other activities seems wrong headed.

And we're battling GPAs now?

Soccer? | 4:50 p.m. July 12, 2008

Let me get this straight we (including me) are wasting all this time talking about soccer? A sport where the goal is as big as a semi trailer and 1 goal is considered a great feat?

Re; Realist | 5:10 p.m. July 12, 2008

Your argument is unreal, siccer may not take over football or basketball in Amaerica but it will take over every other sport. Larry H.Miller had a fit when SLR came here he knew they would draw far moare than the Bee's. Baseball is the sport most threatened by soccer.

moruda | 6:29 p.m. July 12, 2008

Re: Soccer?

The "goal is as big as a semi trailer" and in football you have the WHOLE END OF THE FIELD to cross (and EVEN bigger goal) and many games are won by scores of "2 to 1" or "3 to 2." Oh, wait! In American football you get six points for a goal, so that's "12 to 6" or "18 to 12." So they must be MORE IMPORTANT goals because they are WORTH MORE POINTS.

I'm not a big fan of soccer, but at least they actually PLAY most of the time during a match. In American football the players spend most of the time planning to play (while we just sit in the stands watching their rear ends. The they play for 8 or 10 seconds or so, then back to the secret planning again for a few more minutes. Talk about tedious.

? | 6:49 p.m. July 12, 2008

C'mon, soccer absolutely sucks! Go watch a collegiate soccer game sometime and see if you can find more than 15 people there. (All of them related to or dating someone playing on the field.)

My four year old will play soccer because that is about all you can do at that age. When he graduates to a real sport, soccer is toast! This is America.... baseball, football, basketball. Period.

Uneducated | 7:05 p.m. July 12, 2008

I think people who post negitive comments just sound uneducated. I just the idea of forcing your belief on someone is something you were taught as a child. Your comments almost made me hate soccer but I guess they weren't that convincing. Try harder next time.

Title IX | 7:24 p.m. July 12, 2008

The story and many of the comments have Title IX wrong. Title IX states that the proportion of athletic opportunities at a school needs to match the proportion of males to females enrolled at the school. It DOES NOT state that they need to be EQUAL. Unfortunately this causes an even bigger problem because most universities have a higher proportion of females enrolled in school. If, as posted earlier, it is true that more young males are actively involved in sports than young females, this really puts men at a disadvantage. Supposedly Title IX was supposed change this situation by encouraging more females to become active in sports. This is pure speculation on my part, but if more women are enrolled in school it could be for academic reasons and have nothing to do with interest and opportunities in athletics. I think Title IX should not be based on enrollment but should be based on interest at a university. If there are more women on campus, but only say 50% are interested in sports, than the Title IX requirement should be lower. Same for the men. The NCAA is good with complex formulas (RPI, BCS), they should try it!

get off soccer's case | 7:55 p.m. July 12, 2008

Seriously, the discussion is about title ix, not if soccer is interesting. One issue with soccer is that if you don't know how to play soccer it probably is boring and confusing. One main draw of many sports are the cheerleaders. How many people would attend football or basketball if there were no cheerleaders? I used to play soccer all the time and its a fun sport and takes a lot of fitness and skill. There are a lot of pros to soccer and it requires as much or more athleticism as any other sport. Its as good a sport as any other sport.

Brent | 10:13 p.m. July 12, 2008

American football does go over the top on scholarships. It is probably the only sport where a different set of athletes play offense and defense. Imagine if Byu and Utah both had good men's soccer teams. With support from both schools the RSL stadium could be packed.

What Others Think of US Football | 10:30 p.m. July 12, 2008

I was in Wimbley stadium, London, when the NFL was playing an exhibition match. Cowboys vs. Steelers. During the match a nice English couple asked, why do they always have to talk about what they are going to do next? Do they have such poor memories they can't remember what to do on the field. it was a refreshing look at the side of US football we forget sometimes. So many stoppages. So little playing time. In a four hour football game the ball is in play for less than 12 minutes. How tedius is that?

Boo Hooo | 10:56 p.m. July 12, 2008

To all you who constantly rip on title 9... BOO HOO!
I know, I know womens sports don't make money and guess what, some men's sports don't make money either.

Phillip matou | 11:10 p.m. July 12, 2008

My comment in the form of requet Can you import some pfour good player here in solomon islands to pleyin your USA clubs. We have good players who can turn our dreams in reality.

Please contact me or come and experience by yourself

Thank you
Phillip Matou

Accept it soccer fans | 12:18 a.m. July 13, 2008

As a hockey fan, I know what it's like to love a sport that isn't hugely popular in most of the U.S. But you know what? We kind of accept it. Yeah, we complain about the lack of coverage and do what we can to increase exposure, but at least we don't make these outlandish claims about its future. Soccer becoming the third most popular sport in the country? Maybe someday, but it's not gonna happen in my lifetime, and I'm only 23. I fully acknowledge that soccer is gaining popularity, but it has a ways to go before it even catches hockey in terms of tv viewership and especially attendance (per-game attendance is nearly comparable but hockey has almost three times as many games). Then it's a huge leap to basketball and another huge leap to baseball and football.

P.S.- Dumbest comment of the day- "How many people would attend football or basketball games without the cheerleaders?" I grew up in a place where people stay on a season-ticket waiting list for 15 years for the honor of sitting with 65,000 other Terrible Towel-waving members of Steeler Nation and there's not one cheerleader.

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