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Dick Harmon: Are Cougars lucky, good or both?
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To Clueless Rich | 8:39 a.m. July 10, 2008
Not a penny of your (actually, it's the Lord's) precious tithing money
goes to support the athletic programs at BYU.
To geezer | 8:55 a.m. July 10, 2008
Ha! Who are you trying to fool?
'96 BYU barely beat Texas A&M and the Aggies were WORSE in '96 than the '04 A&M team that Utah DESTROYED. '96 BYU also LOST to Washington and needed a last second interception to insure the victory over a Kansas State team that wasn't much better than the Pitt team that Utah THROTTLED.
'84 and '83 BYU had SEVERAL NARROW wins against WEAK opponents, not to mention they didn't even go undefeated in '83. Every game the '04 Utes played was OVER by the time the 3rd quarter ended and in many cases, by the end of the first half.
Those BYU teams would have MAYBE kept it close for a couple of quarters, but Utah would have STOMPED all three of those BYU teams.
'96 BYU barely beat Texas A&M and the Aggies were WORSE in '96 than the '04 A&M team that Utah DESTROYED. '96 BYU also LOST to Washington and needed a last second interception to insure the victory over a Kansas State team that wasn't much better than the Pitt team that Utah THROTTLED.
'84 and '83 BYU had SEVERAL NARROW wins against WEAK opponents, not to mention they didn't even go undefeated in '83. Every game the '04 Utes played was OVER by the time the 3rd quarter ended and in many cases, by the end of the first half.
Those BYU teams would have MAYBE kept it close for a couple of quarters, but Utah would have STOMPED all three of those BYU teams.
re utah lucky | 9:02 a.m. July 10, 2008
Utah is lucky to not have played a USC, Auburn, OU, Louisville, BSU or any of
the other top 10 teams in 2004. If they had they would have gotten spanked.
By the Way is Alex Smith still in the NFL? Oh that right he's like Ryan Leaf. Alex will be coaching High School football in SLC next year.
By the Way is Alex Smith still in the NFL? Oh that right he's like Ryan Leaf. Alex will be coaching High School football in SLC next year.
Comments continue below
Come talk when | 10:46 a.m. July 10, 2008
YOu play a consistent tough pre season schedule with at least 2 or 3 top 25 or
closer teams. And then you play a very competitive regualr season. If you can
win all those games or maybe drop 1 or 2 then you will have my respect. People
respect the USC's, the FLorida's texas and so on because they bring it
every Sat.
geezer | 10:49 a.m. July 10, 2008
All I'm saying is there is no objective way to compare teams that never had
a chance to play each other. A bad BYU 2004 team played the Utes tough for one
half at RES. The 1996 Cougars were considerably better at the end of the season
after an early loss. The Utes had a great season in 2004, which I respect.
They should have had a chance to play for a national championship. Respect is a
two way street. You won't get any from me saying the mighty 2004 team
would have manhandled all BYU teams. That is just conjecture and opinion
depending on whether you wear blue or red.
Not lucky | 10:49 a.m. July 10, 2008
Luck happens every now and then, but only four losses over two seasons, thats
more skill, talent, and ability than luck. Luck is winning here and there but
not all the time.
To geezer, again | 11:20 a.m. July 10, 2008
?'96 BYU was considerably better at the end of the year than at the
beginning? I suppose that is why they almost lost both of their last two games
that year, right? Puh-lease.
While they will never play each other, you can look at the results those teams produced and against what kind of competition. Utah wins on ALL accounts.
'04 Utah: Undefeated, blewout EVERY opponent, tougher schedule, similar or better bowl opponent(#19 Pitt vs. 6-6 Michigan or #12 Kansas St.)
'04 Utah was better than ANY BYU team, EVER.
While they will never play each other, you can look at the results those teams produced and against what kind of competition. Utah wins on ALL accounts.
'04 Utah: Undefeated, blewout EVERY opponent, tougher schedule, similar or better bowl opponent(#19 Pitt vs. 6-6 Michigan or #12 Kansas St.)
'04 Utah was better than ANY BYU team, EVER.
Every Saturday? | 11:21 a.m. July 10, 2008
"People respect the USC's, the FLorida's texas and so on because
they bring it every Sat."
Tell us about USC's home win against Stanford (4-8) or Texas's home win against Kansas St. (5-7) last season.
Oh wait, those were both losses.
Most of the BcS teams are too scared of losing to a good non-BcS team to schedule a road game with them. The overall schedule for non-BcS teams playing BcS ALWAYS favors the BcS teams, because the majority of those early season matchups are played on the home field of the BcS team.
Try having USC, Florida, Texas or any other BcS team play ALL of their pre-season games on the road against good non-BcS teams like BYU, Utah, TCU, Boise State, Fresno State, or Tulsa, and you'll find that this mythical superiority of the BcS teams is based mostly on a stacked deck.
Just ask defending national champion, #1 ranked Miami how they fared against BYU when they visited Provo. Or Texas. Or Penn St. Or Notre Dame. Or Washington.
Tell us about USC's home win against Stanford (4-8) or Texas's home win against Kansas St. (5-7) last season.
Oh wait, those were both losses.
Most of the BcS teams are too scared of losing to a good non-BcS team to schedule a road game with them. The overall schedule for non-BcS teams playing BcS ALWAYS favors the BcS teams, because the majority of those early season matchups are played on the home field of the BcS team.
Try having USC, Florida, Texas or any other BcS team play ALL of their pre-season games on the road against good non-BcS teams like BYU, Utah, TCU, Boise State, Fresno State, or Tulsa, and you'll find that this mythical superiority of the BcS teams is based mostly on a stacked deck.
Just ask defending national champion, #1 ranked Miami how they fared against BYU when they visited Provo. Or Texas. Or Penn St. Or Notre Dame. Or Washington.
re:To geezer, again | 11:51 a.m. July 10, 2008
"'04 Utah was better than ANY BYU team, EVER."
Which would account for their higher ranking at the end of the year and the National Championship trophy Utah keeps so polished.
Oh, wait, that was BYU.
So if the rest of the country sees it, but some little Ute Fan living in his parents basement doesn't, I think I side with the hardware there babe...
The numbers have been rehashed on this blog, but Utah was measured, and came up lacking.
Work on your end of game defense.
Which would account for their higher ranking at the end of the year and the National Championship trophy Utah keeps so polished.
Oh, wait, that was BYU.
So if the rest of the country sees it, but some little Ute Fan living in his parents basement doesn't, I think I side with the hardware there babe...
The numbers have been rehashed on this blog, but Utah was measured, and came up lacking.
Work on your end of game defense.
Winning on the the Road!!! | 11:54 a.m. July 10, 2008
Heck, most teams are suppose to win at HOME!! Great teams learn how to win on
the ROAD, too.
Road wins will be BYU's major challenge this season, Especially at Washington, just knowing they not only face an improved team, but a Pac-10 officiating crew, as well. The cougars should come in favored, but the yellow flags will determine who wins this game. Basically, a one game season from there on.
Road wins will be BYU's major challenge this season, Especially at Washington, just knowing they not only face an improved team, but a Pac-10 officiating crew, as well. The cougars should come in favored, but the yellow flags will determine who wins this game. Basically, a one game season from there on.
re:Come talk when | 11:55 a.m. July 10, 2008
Wow, then we would have your respect???
I'm geting all goose-bumpy at the thought.
Meanwhile, you can work on scoring at UNLV, stopping 4th and 18, oh, and 10 yard TD runs by a freshman if you want to defend your tie for third in MWC play last year.
Yep, work on that Bucky. You won't have my respect, but I just want coaches to stop laughing at your game films.
I'm geting all goose-bumpy at the thought.
Meanwhile, you can work on scoring at UNLV, stopping 4th and 18, oh, and 10 yard TD runs by a freshman if you want to defend your tie for third in MWC play last year.
Yep, work on that Bucky. You won't have my respect, but I just want coaches to stop laughing at your game films.
Re: re: To geezer, again | 12:36 p.m. July 10, 2008
If you could some how transport the '84 BYU season to '04, Utah along
with USC, Oklahoma, and Auburn all would have finished ranked higher than
BYU.
Likewise, if you could transport the '04 Utes season back to '84, the Utes would have finished ranked higher than BYU in BOTH rankings.
Likewise, if you could transport the '04 Utes season back to '84, the Utes would have finished ranked higher than BYU in BOTH rankings.
re:Re: re: To geezer, again | 1:08 p.m. July 10, 2008
Did that come out of your Crystal Ball, or off your Oujia Board?
Out of all the comments that Ute fans have posted, that really qualifies as the most silly, unsubstanuated daft comments ever posted.
If we could transport through time Utah would have a higher ranking?
Dude, that to me is evidence that you are typing posts while you should be playing Dungeons and Dragons.
Out of all the comments that Ute fans have posted, that really qualifies as the most silly, unsubstanuated daft comments ever posted.
If we could transport through time Utah would have a higher ranking?
Dude, that to me is evidence that you are typing posts while you should be playing Dungeons and Dragons.
Re:re:To geezer, again | 1:11 p.m. July 10, 2008
To say that the Utes were measured and "came up lacking" is a joke.
The Utes were not measured against the best, and certainly didn't come up
short in any game that season. To be measured, they would need to be
challenged, which they weren't. Also, they were not ranked #1, I can live
with that. That USC team is considered by many as one of the best college teams
to ever step foot on the field.
While the 84 BYU team is considered by many as one of the biggest flaws in that system. I am not saying which team would win in a game because that is stupid. The BYU teams of the 80's were stacked and everyone should know it. But neither team was fairly "measured" against elite teams. Fans of both schools have to admit that it is a shame that they weren't given a shot to prove how great those teams truly were.
While the 84 BYU team is considered by many as one of the biggest flaws in that system. I am not saying which team would win in a game because that is stupid. The BYU teams of the 80's were stacked and everyone should know it. But neither team was fairly "measured" against elite teams. Fans of both schools have to admit that it is a shame that they weren't given a shot to prove how great those teams truly were.
Re: Re: re: To geezer, again | 1:12 p.m. July 10, 2008
Thank you for a totally meaningless, unprovable, and inane comment. Now do us
all a favor and grow up.
Re: Road Wins | 1:20 p.m. July 10, 2008
"Heck, most teams are suppose to win at HOME!! Great teams learn how to win
on the ROAD, too."
Exactly!!!
Which is why the BcS vs non-BcS records are skewed in the favor of the BcS teams -- because the majority of the BcS/non-Bcs matchups are at the home of the BcS team. You can't use an unbalanced schedule to prove that one group of teams is better than another group of teams.
Have USC and Ohio State and Texas and LSU "prove their greatness" by playing all of their conference games on the road. Have UCLA and Michigan and Oklahoma and Florida play all of their conference games at home. Then try to convince us that USC and Ohio State and Texas and LSU aren't as good as UCLA and Michigan and Oklahoma and Florida because the road teams had a worse record than the home teams.
Exactly!!!
Which is why the BcS vs non-BcS records are skewed in the favor of the BcS teams -- because the majority of the BcS/non-Bcs matchups are at the home of the BcS team. You can't use an unbalanced schedule to prove that one group of teams is better than another group of teams.
Have USC and Ohio State and Texas and LSU "prove their greatness" by playing all of their conference games on the road. Have UCLA and Michigan and Oklahoma and Florida play all of their conference games at home. Then try to convince us that USC and Ohio State and Texas and LSU aren't as good as UCLA and Michigan and Oklahoma and Florida because the road teams had a worse record than the home teams.
grumpolman | 1:28 p.m. July 10, 2008
Did Utah really play quality opponents in 2004 you make the call! Pitt finished
in a four way tie for first in the Big East Conference, with BC, West Virgina,
and Syracuse. Out of seven teams in their conference which also included
Connecticut, Rutgers and Temple. You said Boston College was really good that
year, they lost to a 4-7 Wake Forrest. Your other quality opponent Texas A&M
which you say won 6 in a row (to not very good teams one was Wyoming) not only
di they lose to Oklahoma and Texas but lost to a 3-8 Baylor team. And North
Carolina finshed the season 6-6. You really don't have to be that smart to
do research you just have to know how to spell Google.
Re: Re: Road Wins | 1:20 p.m. | 1:32 p.m. July 10, 2008
For a true comparison, you'd have to run your study for several years using
the same scenario. That would give conclusive proof that UCLA, Michigan,
Oklahoma, and Florida are better than USC, Ohio State, Texas, and LSU so you
could lock them out of playing any of the upper echelon teams in a bowl.
That would give further proof that they aren't as good since their only bowl wins would come against middle-of-the-pack teams from other conferences.
That would give further proof that they aren't as good since their only bowl wins would come against middle-of-the-pack teams from other conferences.
Alma the Wiser | 1:37 p.m. July 10, 2008
Anybody that knows ANYTHING about college football knows that the Utes from 2004
were a better team than the kewgs from 1984. That fact alone is why it does not
surprise me that byU fans are arguing the other way.
McKay | 1:36 p.m. July 10, 2008
Wow days later and this article is still getting comments.. pretty impressive!!
My comment is this: As much of a Cougar fan as I am, I have to give credit where
credit is due. That 2004 Ute team was top notch, they were one of the top 2 or
3 teams that year, they steamrolled everybody on their schedule including my
beloved Cougs. Fellow Coug fans please stop trying to say they weren't, it
only makes us look ignorant as a fan base.
Re: grumpolman | 1:48 p.m. July 10, 2008
And yet, the Utes schedule that year was still STRONGER than byU's from
'84.
What conference champs did byU play that year?
How many of byU's opponents went to bowl games that year?
How many of byU's opponents spent anytime in the rankings beyond week 2?
How many of byU's opponents were from the presently defined BCS conferences?
What conference champs did byU play that year?
How many of byU's opponents went to bowl games that year?
How many of byU's opponents spent anytime in the rankings beyond week 2?
How many of byU's opponents were from the presently defined BCS conferences?
THE TRUTH HURTS!!! | 2:51 p.m. July 10, 2008
This is a big joke. The best mid major team of all time is the 2006 Boise State
Broncos. BSU played 3 teams from the top 25 that season icnluding pounding an
Oregon State team 42-14 that same Beaver team upset a very good USC team and
finished in the top 20. Also BSU embaresd your beloved Utes 36-3 in SLC. Then
played a top 10 OU team that if it wasnt for one of the worst officated calls of
all time in Oregon. OU would have had a legitimate argument for the National
Title game.
You can make all the arguments you want about the 04 utes but BSU was the best Mid major ever.
P.S. to the guy thats talking wierd stuff about transporting teams back to 1984 why dont we just transport players from both BYU and Utah and create an all time team then have them go at it. I WONDER WHO WINS THAT ONE!!! JUST KIDDING WE KNOW IN THAT CASE BYU WOULD WIN BY 50!!
You can make all the arguments you want about the 04 utes but BSU was the best Mid major ever.
P.S. to the guy thats talking wierd stuff about transporting teams back to 1984 why dont we just transport players from both BYU and Utah and create an all time team then have them go at it. I WONDER WHO WINS THAT ONE!!! JUST KIDDING WE KNOW IN THAT CASE BYU WOULD WIN BY 50!!
Marginally Stronger | 2:59 p.m. July 10, 2008
...was Utah's 2004 schedule than BYU's 1984 schedule.
There were only 20 ranked teams in 1984 (25 in 2004).
There were only 16 bowl games in 1984 (28 in 2004).
There were only 20 ranked teams in 1984 (25 in 2004).
There were only 16 bowl games in 1984 (28 in 2004).
To: Alma the NOT so wise | 3:03 p.m. July 10, 2008
"Anybody that knows ANYTHING about college football knows that the
Utes" have NEVER won a National Championship, and the Cougars have.
Really? | 3:15 p.m. July 10, 2008
So, I guess that means that 6-6 Michigan was the 1984 runner-up?
Any 'national championship' before the BCS is MYTHICAL unless the National Champ was matched with the number 2 team in the country for their bowl game. As far as I know, this has never happened, maybe it has but I just don't care enough to do the research on it.
At least with the BCS, the Champion has to play the other top team in the country. Although, we have seen there are still flaws in the system, but the last 10 national champs have been one-million times more legitimate than the '84 BYU MYTHICAL National Chumps.
Any 'national championship' before the BCS is MYTHICAL unless the National Champ was matched with the number 2 team in the country for their bowl game. As far as I know, this has never happened, maybe it has but I just don't care enough to do the research on it.
At least with the BCS, the Champion has to play the other top team in the country. Although, we have seen there are still flaws in the system, but the last 10 national champs have been one-million times more legitimate than the '84 BYU MYTHICAL National Chumps.
Las Vegas Bowl | 3:19 p.m. July 10, 2008
Dear BYU,
We can't wait to have you again this year!
We can't wait to have you again this year!
Voice of Reason | 3:32 p.m. July 10, 2008
Whoa whoa, my fellow Cougar fans...take it easy. We're going to need all
of this energy for our drive down to Las Vegas in January. Fetch yeah!
The PAC-10 Ambush Crew | 3:54 p.m. July 10, 2008
A couple of years have past since the "hole in the flag" officicating
crew helped down a very good Oklahoma team on the road at Oregon. The same
Oregon team that BYU spanked later in LV. The poor officiating by the PAC-10
cost Oklahoma a shot at the BCS.
Beware Cougars, the yellow flags will be waiting for you in Washington. The PAC-10, Washington and it's coaching staff have a lot riding on this game.
Beware Cougars, the yellow flags will be waiting for you in Washington. The PAC-10, Washington and it's coaching staff have a lot riding on this game.
Ute Facts and Sources??? | 4:53 p.m. July 10, 2008
To: Alma the Wiser:
"Anybody that knows ANYTHING about college football knows that the Utes from 2004 were a better team than the kewgs from 1984. That "fact" alone..." That's a fact?
Sorry, review the national rankings again with me, because I can swear I learned in my University of Utah math class that be ranked #1 is better than being ranked #6 nationally. How does the lower ranking make Utah "better"? I'll bet your getting your math from "Re: Re: re: To geezer, again", whose post was mercifully taken off the boards by a kind moderator who was embarassed for you poor Ute fans.
to the 1:11 post:
"The Utes were not measured against the best"...
Neither was BYU my friend, and still, they were ranked #1 at the end of the season. Wow, strange...
And to both: "While the 84 BYU team is considered by many as one of the biggest flaws in that system" your sources are "Anybody that knows ANYTHING" and " considered by many". Who are these people? You need sources there, kids.
Inane, sourceless arguments. Are you sure Utah is a decent research institution?
Your grade on these posts?
D-
Sourceless weak arguements.
"Anybody that knows ANYTHING about college football knows that the Utes from 2004 were a better team than the kewgs from 1984. That "fact" alone..." That's a fact?
Sorry, review the national rankings again with me, because I can swear I learned in my University of Utah math class that be ranked #1 is better than being ranked #6 nationally. How does the lower ranking make Utah "better"? I'll bet your getting your math from "Re: Re: re: To geezer, again", whose post was mercifully taken off the boards by a kind moderator who was embarassed for you poor Ute fans.
to the 1:11 post:
"The Utes were not measured against the best"...
Neither was BYU my friend, and still, they were ranked #1 at the end of the season. Wow, strange...
And to both: "While the 84 BYU team is considered by many as one of the biggest flaws in that system" your sources are "Anybody that knows ANYTHING" and " considered by many". Who are these people? You need sources there, kids.
Inane, sourceless arguments. Are you sure Utah is a decent research institution?
Your grade on these posts?
D-
Sourceless weak arguements.
BYU fan word of the year | 5:26 p.m. July 10, 2008
Let's see here, if my math is correct, BYU fans have used the word
'inane' 237 times since signing day.
Memo to BYU fans: Repeatedly using a word that you heard on the Doug Wright show does not make you smarter. Most of you probably don't even know what it means.
Sources: D-News blog, SL Trib blog, Cougarboard.
Memo to BYU fans: Repeatedly using a word that you heard on the Doug Wright show does not make you smarter. Most of you probably don't even know what it means.
Sources: D-News blog, SL Trib blog, Cougarboard.
Re: Ute facts and sources | 5:39 p.m. July 10, 2008
BYU being ranked #1 vs. Utah being ranked #6(actually they were #4 and #5)
doesn't mean that the '84 team was better than the '04 team.
All that proves is that there were no other undefeated teams in '84 while there were two other undefeated teams in '04(USC and Auburn).
Utah had no control over that just like BYU had no control over it.
However, if Washington and/or Oklahoma had been undefeated in '84, Utah would have been ranked below them because the Huskies and Sooners actually played some DECENT COMPETITION.
All that proves is that there were no other undefeated teams in '84 while there were two other undefeated teams in '04(USC and Auburn).
Utah had no control over that just like BYU had no control over it.
However, if Washington and/or Oklahoma had been undefeated in '84, Utah would have been ranked below them because the Huskies and Sooners actually played some DECENT COMPETITION.
Correction to:5:39 p.m. July 10, | 6:50 p.m. July 10, 2008
However, if Washington and/or Oklahoma had been undefeated in '84, *BYU*
would have been ranked below them because the Huskies and Sooners actually
played some DECENT COMPETITION.
Re: BwhyU | 6:53 p.m. July 10, 2008
BwhyU | 10:21 p.m. July 8, 2008
"Why is it that almost every BwhyU fan spells 'lose' with two O's?"
Answer: So that yoot fans will understand the post because that's how they think lose is spelled.
GO COUGARS IN 2008!!!! BE LUCKY AND GOOD!!!!
"Why is it that almost every BwhyU fan spells 'lose' with two O's?"
Answer: So that yoot fans will understand the post because that's how they think lose is spelled.
GO COUGARS IN 2008!!!! BE LUCKY AND GOOD!!!!
Inane | 7:08 p.m. July 10, 2008
Sorry there, pal. There are only so many words that the Des News will allow to
describe the "manure" that Utah Fans call logic.
Source: Farmers Almanac
Source: Farmers Almanac
re:Re: Ute facts and sources | 7:16 p.m. July 10, 2008
I will agree that "BYU being ranked #1 vs. Utah being ranked #6(actually
they were #4 and #5) doesn't mean that the '84 team was better than
the '04 team."
I don't think it does much to prove "that the Utes from 2004 were a better team than the kewgs from 1984."
But I must say, it is a little bit stronger arguement than "Anybody that knows ANYTHING" and " considered by many".
BTW, am I the only one that thinks Harmon got a ton of posts all about one little "inane" article.
I personally think he just phoned this one in.
I don't think it does much to prove "that the Utes from 2004 were a better team than the kewgs from 1984."
But I must say, it is a little bit stronger arguement than "Anybody that knows ANYTHING" and " considered by many".
BTW, am I the only one that thinks Harmon got a ton of posts all about one little "inane" article.
I personally think he just phoned this one in.
re:Correction to:5:39 p.m | 8:30 p.m. July 10, 2008
I don't see the need for the correction. Utah was ranked below those teams
in 1984.
But really, it's an "if".
"IF".
If Jesus Christ had played for Washington and/or Oklahoma, BYU would have been ranked below them if either team went winless.
If the games were held in Cuba in 1984, Castro would have had the only poll.
If, If, If...
Hey,
If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts,
wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?"
But really, it's an "if".
"IF".
If Jesus Christ had played for Washington and/or Oklahoma, BYU would have been ranked below them if either team went winless.
If the games were held in Cuba in 1984, Castro would have had the only poll.
If, If, If...
Hey,
If "ifs" and "buts" were candy and nuts,
wouldn't it be a Merry Christmas?"
George the Btighter | 6:45 a.m. July 11, 2008
The 1984 BYU Cougars placed 18 of it's starters in the NFL, as noted in an
article published by ESPN.
Further, Bo and his Big Blue were headed for the Roses until his QB, now headcoach at Stanford broke his leg.
The theme of the game with "up start" BYU was that BO's defense would slam dunk the cougar offense, and his offense could win with three yards and a cloud of dust running game.
Also, you might note, that the BYU coaching staff included the current UCLA OC and the head coach of the Seahawks. Great team with a great coaching staff.
,
Further, Bo and his Big Blue were headed for the Roses until his QB, now headcoach at Stanford broke his leg.
The theme of the game with "up start" BYU was that BO's defense would slam dunk the cougar offense, and his offense could win with three yards and a cloud of dust running game.
Also, you might note, that the BYU coaching staff included the current UCLA OC and the head coach of the Seahawks. Great team with a great coaching staff.
,
Mark of a Champion | 7:20 a.m. July 11, 2008
The fallacy with most of Utah bloggers arguing that their 2004 team was better
than the 1984 BYU team is that their argument ignores one critically important
factor in winning championships -- heart.
Most of the Utah fans commenting on this blog never watched the 1984 BYU team, so they have no frame of reference for comparison. All they have to go on is statistics. And it's impossible for statistics to measure heart.
Most of the Utah fans commenting on this blog never watched the 1984 BYU team, so they have no frame of reference for comparison. All they have to go on is statistics. And it's impossible for statistics to measure heart.
Mark of a Champion (cont.) | 7:21 a.m. July 11, 2008
Very few championship teams steamroll through an entire season beating everybody
by 3 or 4 touchdowns. True champions are able to win when the chips are down,
when their starting quarterback is injured, when the other team takes the lead
with less than a minute to play, when all of the breaks in the game -- flags,
turnovers, injuries -- all seem to be going in the other team's favor.
BYU's goal line stand at the end of the first half a Pittsburgh, Kyle Morrell jumping over the line to tackle the Hawaii quarterback in the backfield on 4th and goal from less than a yard to preserve an 18-13 win, Bosco being carried off the field after suffering a knee ligament injury on a roughing the passer penalty with the game still scoreless, then returning to lead BYU to a 24-17 victory on a leg he could barely stand on.
On paper, Utah 2004, may have been more talented. On heart, BYU 1984 would have found a way of beating Utah 2004, if they had played.
BYU 1984 won the National Championship on heart as much as talent.
BYU's goal line stand at the end of the first half a Pittsburgh, Kyle Morrell jumping over the line to tackle the Hawaii quarterback in the backfield on 4th and goal from less than a yard to preserve an 18-13 win, Bosco being carried off the field after suffering a knee ligament injury on a roughing the passer penalty with the game still scoreless, then returning to lead BYU to a 24-17 victory on a leg he could barely stand on.
On paper, Utah 2004, may have been more talented. On heart, BYU 1984 would have found a way of beating Utah 2004, if they had played.
BYU 1984 won the National Championship on heart as much as talent.
BYU 1984 vs Utah 2004 | 7:42 a.m. July 11, 2008
BYU 1984 Overall (13-0)
#1 AP, #1 Coaches
Points For - 456
Points Against - 183
Average Point Differential - 21.0
Conference (8-0)
Points For - 289
Points Against - 111
Average Point Differential - 22.2
Opponent Winning Percentage - 42%
Players Drafted Trevor Matich C 1 (28) Patriots
Kyle Morrell DB 4 (106) Vikings
Louis Wong G 5 (131) Cardinals
Lee Johnson K 5 (138) Oilers
Jim Herrmann DE 7 (184) Cowboys
Awards
WAC Champions
1984 National Champions
Robbie Bosco - Sammy Baugh Trophy
Utah 2004 (12-0)
#4 AP, #5 Coaches
Points For - 544
Points Against - 234
Average Point Differential - 25.8
Conference (7-0)
Points For - 351
Points Against - 178
Average Point Differential - 24.7
Opponent Winning Percentage - 45%
Players Drafted Alex D. Smith QB 1 (1) 49ers
Sione Pouha DT 3 (88) Jets
Chris Kemoeatu G 6 (204) Steelers
Paris Warren WR 7 (225) Buccaneers
Jonathan Fanene DE 7 (233) Bengals
Awards
MWC Champions
#1 AP, #1 Coaches
Points For - 456
Points Against - 183
Average Point Differential - 21.0
Conference (8-0)
Points For - 289
Points Against - 111
Average Point Differential - 22.2
Opponent Winning Percentage - 42%
Players Drafted Trevor Matich C 1 (28) Patriots
Kyle Morrell DB 4 (106) Vikings
Louis Wong G 5 (131) Cardinals
Lee Johnson K 5 (138) Oilers
Jim Herrmann DE 7 (184) Cowboys
Awards
WAC Champions
1984 National Champions
Robbie Bosco - Sammy Baugh Trophy
Utah 2004 (12-0)
#4 AP, #5 Coaches
Points For - 544
Points Against - 234
Average Point Differential - 25.8
Conference (7-0)
Points For - 351
Points Against - 178
Average Point Differential - 24.7
Opponent Winning Percentage - 45%
Players Drafted Alex D. Smith QB 1 (1) 49ers
Sione Pouha DT 3 (88) Jets
Chris Kemoeatu G 6 (204) Steelers
Paris Warren WR 7 (225) Buccaneers
Jonathan Fanene DE 7 (233) Bengals
Awards
MWC Champions
Tithing issue | 7:49 a.m. July 11, 2008
Wow, do the zoobies get upset at the tithing question! Since money is the most
fungible item on planet earth, don't tell me that tithing funds don't
contribute to BYU athletics. I've even heard the general authorities
defend the expenditures of tithing at BYU as beneficial for the reputation of
the Church. That's fine, but if tithing dollars are being spent to support
BYU, then tithing dollars are being spent on BYU athletics. There might not be
a tithing check being cut every month to the athletic department, but the
fungible nature of money assures that tithing supports BYU athletics.
As far as tithing being the Lord's, and not mine, that's all too true, and I'll accept the General Authorities spending it on whatever they want, because I've done my part in paying it, but at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you have an advantage that no other school in Utah has, the combined faith of millions of church members who pay their tithing because they believe the principle even though they hate BYU athletics.
As far as tithing being the Lord's, and not mine, that's all too true, and I'll accept the General Authorities spending it on whatever they want, because I've done my part in paying it, but at least have the intellectual honesty to admit that you have an advantage that no other school in Utah has, the combined faith of millions of church members who pay their tithing because they believe the principle even though they hate BYU athletics.
grumpolman | 8:22 a.m. July 11, 2008
One thing is clear if you watched both the "84" and "2004"
bowl games dispite their records Michigan was by far a superior team than Pitt.
And if the Utes think they are going into the "big house" this year
and pull an Appalacian State you're nuts. "But we almost won last time
we played there".
You hear "almost" a lot from Ute fans. We almost beat BYU the last two years. We almost played someone good in 2004. We almost make sense when we blog on the DNews.
You hear "almost" a lot from Ute fans. We almost beat BYU the last two years. We almost played someone good in 2004. We almost make sense when we blog on the DNews.
Re: Mythical Champs | 8:42 a.m. July 11, 2008
"Any 'national championship' before the BCS is MYTHICAL unless
the National Champ was matched with the number 2 team in the country for their
bowl game."
ALL NATIONAL CHAMPIONS are MYTHICAL because there isn't a playoff system to determine, on the field, a REAL national champion.
Can you imagine MLB, the NBA, tne NFL determining their champion based on matching the two teams with the most votes at the end of the season?
The BCS is a slight improvement from the locked-into-a-specific-bowl conference champions from the past, but until EVERY team in Division 1A (sorry, the new name is like putting makeup on a pig), the MYTHICAL BCS national championship is nothing but BS, a beauty contest reserved only for the "beautiful" conferences.
Until the NCAA institutes a real playoff like they have in basketball, with the champions of every conference being included, the college football national champions will remain "MYTHICAL."
Every champion so far has been "SELECTED."
Check out the NCAA website; there is no list of "NCAA" Division 1A national football champions.
Instead they list the "selecting" organizations:
BCS, AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, USA/ESPN, UPI, CFRA, HAF, NCF
ALL NATIONAL CHAMPIONS are MYTHICAL because there isn't a playoff system to determine, on the field, a REAL national champion.
Can you imagine MLB, the NBA, tne NFL determining their champion based on matching the two teams with the most votes at the end of the season?
The BCS is a slight improvement from the locked-into-a-specific-bowl conference champions from the past, but until EVERY team in Division 1A (sorry, the new name is like putting makeup on a pig), the MYTHICAL BCS national championship is nothing but BS, a beauty contest reserved only for the "beautiful" conferences.
Until the NCAA institutes a real playoff like they have in basketball, with the champions of every conference being included, the college football national champions will remain "MYTHICAL."
Every champion so far has been "SELECTED."
Check out the NCAA website; there is no list of "NCAA" Division 1A national football champions.
Instead they list the "selecting" organizations:
BCS, AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, USA/ESPN, UPI, CFRA, HAF, NCF
National Champs | 9:04 a.m. July 11, 2008
Consensus National Champions
Year School Selecting organization
1983 Miami (Fla.) AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, UPI
1984 Brigham Young AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, UPI
1985 Oklahoma AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, UPI
AP - Associated Press
FWAA - Football Writers Association of America
NFF - National Football Foundation/College Football Hall of Fame
USA/CNN - USA Today/CNN
UPI - United Press International
The very same groups of sportswriters, sportscasters, and coaches who voted BYU Consensus National Champions in 1984, voted Miami and Oklahoma #1 in 1983 and 1985 respectively.
Year School Selecting organization
1983 Miami (Fla.) AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, UPI
1984 Brigham Young AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, UPI
1985 Oklahoma AP, FWAA, NFF, USA/CNN, UPI
AP - Associated Press
FWAA - Football Writers Association of America
NFF - National Football Foundation/College Football Hall of Fame
USA/CNN - USA Today/CNN
UPI - United Press International
The very same groups of sportswriters, sportscasters, and coaches who voted BYU Consensus National Champions in 1984, voted Miami and Oklahoma #1 in 1983 and 1985 respectively.
BYU 1980 | 9:48 a.m. July 11, 2008
...may have been better than BYU 1984, BYU 1996, and Utah 2004
BYU 1980 Overall (12-1)
#12 AP, #11 Coaches
Points For - 606
Points Against - 243
Average Point Differential - 27.9
Conference (6-1)
Points For - 326
Points Against - 87
Average Point Differential - 34.1
Opponent Winning Percentage - 51%
Lost at New Mexico first game of season (21-25)
Destroyed Wisconsin at Wisconsin (28-3)
Destroyed Utah State at Utah State (70-46)
Annihilated Utah at Utah (56-6) - largest margin of victory in rivalry history
Beat the "Pony Express" SMU Mustangs (46-45) in the Holiday Bowl
Players Drafted
Clay Brown TE 2 (42) Broncos
Glen Titensor DE 3 (81) Cowboys
Scott Phillips WR 4 (87) Seahawks
Nick Eyre T 4 (106) Oilers
Glen Redd LB 6 (166) Saints
Lloyd Jones WR 8 (195) Jets
Eric Lane RB 8 (196) Seahawks
*Jim McMahon was only a junior and was drafted by the Chicago Bears the following year
@New Mexico (21-25)
San Diego State (35-11)
@Wisconsin (28-3)
California State-Long Beach (41-25)
Wyoming (52-17)
@Utah State (70-46)
@Hawaii (34-7)
Texas-El Paso (83-7)
North Texas (41-23)
Colorado State (45-14)
@Utah (56-6)
@Nevada-Las Vegas (54-14)
Southern Methodist (46-45) Holiday Bowl
BYU 1980 Overall (12-1)
#12 AP, #11 Coaches
Points For - 606
Points Against - 243
Average Point Differential - 27.9
Conference (6-1)
Points For - 326
Points Against - 87
Average Point Differential - 34.1
Opponent Winning Percentage - 51%
Lost at New Mexico first game of season (21-25)
Destroyed Wisconsin at Wisconsin (28-3)
Destroyed Utah State at Utah State (70-46)
Annihilated Utah at Utah (56-6) - largest margin of victory in rivalry history
Beat the "Pony Express" SMU Mustangs (46-45) in the Holiday Bowl
Players Drafted
Clay Brown TE 2 (42) Broncos
Glen Titensor DE 3 (81) Cowboys
Scott Phillips WR 4 (87) Seahawks
Nick Eyre T 4 (106) Oilers
Glen Redd LB 6 (166) Saints
Lloyd Jones WR 8 (195) Jets
Eric Lane RB 8 (196) Seahawks
*Jim McMahon was only a junior and was drafted by the Chicago Bears the following year
@New Mexico (21-25)
San Diego State (35-11)
@Wisconsin (28-3)
California State-Long Beach (41-25)
Wyoming (52-17)
@Utah State (70-46)
@Hawaii (34-7)
Texas-El Paso (83-7)
North Texas (41-23)
Colorado State (45-14)
@Utah (56-6)
@Nevada-Las Vegas (54-14)
Southern Methodist (46-45) Holiday Bowl
Re: mark of champion | 12:08 p.m. July 11, 2008
1984 cougs would've found a way to beat 2004 utes? laughable. that's
like saying that the celtics teams of the 60's would beat the 90's
bulls. not going to happen. football players of today are better athletes.
they are BIGGER, FASTER, and STRONGER than their peers of the past.
Re: big | 12:40 p.m. July 11, 2008
Yeah, we all saw what Notre Dame did last season with all of their "BIGGER,
FASTER, and STRONGER", Blue Chip, 4- and 5-star athletes didn't we.
You're forgetting that if you could invent a time-machine to move both teams to the same time period, both teams would be operating with the same sports technology.
You're forgetting that if you could invent a time-machine to move both teams to the same time period, both teams would be operating with the same sports technology.
To BYU 1980: | 12:42 p.m. July 11, 2008
I won't dispute your post, but I wonder at the use of "players
drafted" as a measure of success. Surely the fact that USU had more
players drafted last year than BYU or Utah doesn't indicate that USU has a
more successful program. Even the most die-hard Aggie fans admit that our
football program is absolutely awful (we may offer lots of excuses for why
it's awful, and most of them are laughable, but it's true that our
football team is at least a decade removed from any reasonable definition of
"not awful").
Re: Players Drafted | 1:24 p.m. July 11, 2008
Players drafted is only one small part of measuring the strength of a team. Like
any statistic taken out of context, it's meaningless without looking at the
overall picture -- wins, losses, championships, individual awards.
Zoobie 56 | 3:34 p.m. July 11, 2008
RE: mark of a champion
Don't forget all those wonderful steroids many modern athletes are on . (Surely not the Utes) Don't count out the old Celtics. You're probably too young to ever have seen them play. Their great defense and teamwork may still beat NBA teams today. Sorry I'll take the 84 National Champions. Go Cougs!!!
Don't forget all those wonderful steroids many modern athletes are on . (Surely not the Utes) Don't count out the old Celtics. You're probably too young to ever have seen them play. Their great defense and teamwork may still beat NBA teams today. Sorry I'll take the 84 National Champions. Go Cougs!!!
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