Deseret News | Pac-10 will snub BYU, Utah

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Dick Harmon: Pac-10 will snub BYU, Utah

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tune up the band | 11:39 a.m. July 8, 2008

re: Re: Anonymous | 12:50 p.m. | 1:37 p.m. July 7, 2008

So, will Bruce Springsteen provide the theme song?

Just to make you Think! | 11:37 a.m. July 8, 2008

BYU and Utah fans can argue all you want about why or why not the PAC-10 should or should not invite BYU and Utah to their party, but there is still a big item missing from both schools football resumes. And that something is football prestige both preceived and written from the fans and the national press. Yes, both schools have had some success on the big stage. I.E. BYU's National Championship and Utah's 2004 Season. These two events do bring recognition and nobody should argue that. They still are however anomalies to the rest of the football fandom. Neither BYU nor Utah has very many road wins over well established or powerhouse teams. Most of your big wins the schools have had, have come at home or on neutral fields. Since we are talking about moving the schools into the PAC-10 we will look at both school's records against the PAC-10 on the road, in particular and any big time out of conference games.

Just to make you Think -2! | 11:39 a.m. July 8, 2008

The Numbers! We will look back to games against the PAC-10, starting with 1990, which some will argue is too far back and some may say not far enough, but we do need at least 15 years or so to find enough games to look at. Since 1990 BYU is 8-17 against the PAC-10. They are 2-9 on the road, 4-7 at home, and 2-1 in bowl games ï¿½ neutral fields.). This type of record will not win you any national recognition. Now letï¿½s look at other big games against other nationally recognized football schools. For the same time period (Since 1990) BYU is 10-16-1 overall against schools with at some national recognition and not part of the PAC-10.. They are 6-5 at home, 3-7 on the road, and 1-4-1 on neutral fields. In fact it can be argued that BYU has never had a really big win (recognized nationally) on the road. The 3 regular season road wins are twice against Fresno State and once against Virginia. Neither a true powerhouse, but both have had some national football success. If you want recognition you have to win on the road and beat very big names.

Comments continue below

Just to make you Think -3! | 11:40 a.m. July 8, 2008

If you want recognition you have to win on the road and beat very big names. Your wins against Miami and Notre Dameï¿½ sorry both were at home! Get the point.
As for Utah they are 14-14 against the PAC-10 since 1990. Unfortunately the only website I could quickly find quickly that gave year by year results back to 1990 did not denote home and away games, just the scores. Against other conferences team with some notoriety they are 11-10 (Including Bowl Games). Again not bad, but I do not have it broke down by home and away games, so there may also be a lack of big road wins.
The only way to break into the PAC-10 is to win year in and year out. Would the PAC-10 love to have Texas and Texas AM, or course. Especially if they were truly in the west. Why, because they have national credibility, which BYU and Utah do not currently have. True both schools have more money and will bring more TV audience than the Y and Utah, but just as important are the Wins and Losses.

Not so fast my friend | 11:52 a.m. July 8, 2008

"Lets not forget that the U got ranked higher than BYU for this season, regardless of BYU's season last year"

Sorry to burst your bubble, but your statement is only correct regarding ONE publication. Like describing an elephant as being like a rope, you're not looking at the whole picture.

The Concensus National Top 25 Preseason

Rank Team Points Lindy Athlon PhilSteele SurefireSc'tg USAToday TSN

1 Ohio State 144 3 2 2 2 - 2
2 Southern Cal 141 2 4 4 1 - 3
3 Florida 135 6 1 1 3 - 9
4t Georgia 134 1 5 9 5 - 1
4t Oklahoma 134 4 3 3 7 - 4
6 Missouri 127
7 Clemson 118
8 West Virginia 116
9 Louisiana State 112
10 Texas 97

13 Brigham Young 77 12 14 17 16 - 19

29 Utah 17 - - 14 - - -

Phil may be correct, but he's looking more and more like a Utah homer compared to ALL of the other prognosticators.

MWC Predictions | 11:51 a.m. July 8, 2008

Rank Team Points Lindy Athlon PhilSteele SurefireSc'tg USAToday TSN

1 Brigham Young 7ï¿½ 1 1 2ï¿½ 1 1 1
2 Utah 12 2 2 1 2 2 3
3 Texas Christian 16ï¿½ 3 3 2ï¿½ 3 3 2
4 New Mexico 27ï¿½ 4 4 5ï¿½ 5 4 5
5 Air Force 36 6 6 7 8 5 4
6 Wyoming 36ï¿½ 5 5 5ï¿½ 7 8 6
7 Nevada-Las Vegas 43 9 8 4 6 7 9
8 Colorado State 44 8 7 9 4 9 7
9 San Diego State 47 7 9 8 9 6 8

To: Just to make you think | 11:54 a.m. July 8, 2008

Why would you ever think Texas or Texas A&M would want to join the PAC 10? Texas and Texas A&M would take about a 63% reduction in yearly revenue if they switched to the PAC 10.

Plus, recruiting would be hurt because the PAC 10 is not nearly as prestigous a conference as the BIG 12 and can't recruit the talent like the BIG 12. Stop dreaming.

re: keep dreaming | 11:56 a.m. July 8, 2008

you really are an idiot

To think 1-2-3 | 12:07 p.m. July 8, 2008

Very selective reasoning and time frame. By your rationale, Washington St., Oregon, Oregon St. and Arizona would never have been included in the PAC-10, based on their football and basketball records in the 15 years prior to joining the conference.

How many times have Washington St., Oregon, Oregon St. and Arizona beaten USC on the road in the last 15 years? Combined?!?

Nice Harmon | 12:20 p.m. July 8, 2008

You offer no argument to your "spoiled child" article. Instead of pointing out how BYU or Utah could bring money to the table - you go to reasons like - "BYU has more top 25 finishes than half the pac-10." Sorry but that's bad journalism - more like a junior high aritcle. You can't compare a top 25 finish from the wac than a top 25 finish from the SEC or Pac-10.

Come to your senses | 12:36 p.m. July 8, 2008

ASU would destroy BYU. They are only good because they have a QB that couldn't cut it at ASU.

JIMBO | 12:37 p.m. July 8, 2008

Coed Skiing LMAO!!!!!

Good one

Keep the money | 12:57 p.m. July 8, 2008

Who cares if the Big 12 has more money? Pac-10 is the conference of Champions. Make more money we'll just keep winning championships at all levels.

Sport's Academy Director's Cup Standings:
1. Stanford 1461.00
2. UCLA 1182.00
3. Michigan 1161.00
4. Arizona State 1146.00
5. Texas 1129.50
6. Florida 1126.75
7. California 1119.00
8. Louisiana State U. 1081.66
9. Penn State 1041.00
10. Georgia 1040.00
11. Ohio State 1033.75
12. Texas A&M 1031.00
13. Southern California 1011.25
14. North Carolina 977.50
15. Florida State 970.50
16. Tennessee 952.75
17. Virginia 869.00
18. Wisconsin 829.50
19. Duke (N.C.) 820.00
20. Auburn 761.50
21. Notre Dame 760.50
22. Washington 745.25
23. Oklahoma 713.00
24. Arkansas 696.00
25. Alabama 683.00
26. Oregon 680.75

That make seven Pac-10 schools in the top 26 and three big 12 schools in the top 26. Don't even get me started about academics. Keep the money we'll take the prestige.

Re: senses | 12:36 p.m. | 1:05 p.m. July 8, 2008

"ASU would destroy BYU."

Doubtful, but we'll never know this season unless we meet in the Fiesta Bowl.

Sundevil | 1:52 p.m. July 8, 2008

Football and basketball are not the only sports in the NCAA program. BYU does okay in their conference in these and has national rankings, but they would get creamed in other areas. Cougar fans are the biggest whiners, get over it.

John Hammond | 1:59 p.m. July 8, 2008

To "Just to make you think",

You can't be serious? You really think Texas and Texas A&M would drop out of the BIG 12 and join the PAC 10? That's like getting rid of your 2008 Mercedes S500 and deciding to drive a 1994 Ford Forcus.

NO team from the BIG 12 would ever join the PAC 10, unless they wanted to make substantially less money and intentionally hurt their recruiting.

captainbarky | 2:05 p.m. July 8, 2008

re: you are forgetting that BYU's fanbase isn't confined to just the SLC/Provo market-it's nationwide:

No-I am not forgetting that BYU has fans outside of Utah-so do ALL Pac-10 schools. To claim that BYU is some Mountain West version of Notre Dame is simply dillusional.

The point of showing that 5 of the top 23 TV markets are in the Pac 10 states is that even schools not located in the actual market have fans in the large TV market (Wazzu in Seattle, U of A in Tucson) and there are plenty of UCLA and USC fans in the Bay Area and Sacramento. I would be willing to bet that all 6 California Pac 10 schools individually have more fans in Sacramento than BYU has. Yes, BYU has a minor regional following (mainly in other smaller markets like Boise), but, again, not enough that the Pac 10 would ever add them as a team.

True Blue Fan | 2:10 p.m. July 8, 2008

It will be funny when BYU joins the BIG 12 because then they can look down at the PAC 10 as a much more inferior conference.

When BYU joins the BIG 12, they will not want to play any PAC 10 teams, because it will weaken their schedule.

Go BIG 12 and Go BYU!

Re: Money | 2:13 p.m. July 8, 2008

"Who cares if the Big 12 has more money?"

When it comes to conference expansion, which is what the associated article is all about, the priorities, in order, are:

1. Money
2. Money
3. Money
4. Athletic Competitiveness/Academics/Geographic Location
5. Money

If adding BYU and Utah added another $10 million to the athletic coffers of each of the current PAC-10 schools, priority #4 would become priority #5 in a heartbeat.

Adding a conference championship game and a couple more bowl games to the mix would more than make up for the lost revenue from splitting the pie 12 ways instead of 10.

john hochhalter | 2:15 p.m. July 8, 2008

Who was the silly person that thinks the Big 12 is a better conference than the Pac-10? BTW, what happened to the University of Vince Young football team when he graduated?? GO TROJANS!!!!!!!!!!

Sparky | 2:19 p.m. July 8, 2008

Harmon you are the definition of a " Homer" how many payroll's are you on? The Pac-10's snobery and ego are only out matched by yours and your master, byu. If its a lap dog your looking for .. look in the mirror.

Anonymous | 2:28 p.m. July 8, 2008

BYU can play with any Pac-10 team, USC included and they would lose some games, but they would win plenty. Utah football is struggling, but could rebound if they get some more talent and stay healthy. BYU is twice as good as any of the teams in the bottom half of the PAC-10.

Dave | 2:48 p.m. July 8, 2008

You forgot the biggest reason the Pac-10 would never include BYU. Because BYU is a bunch of babies, crying over every little perceived injustice, and demanding that their "no play on Sunday" and other religious stuff be accommodated by the conference. All the exceptions to the rules are just a pain to deal with, and what would the Pac-10 get for all that? A mediocre team that, every year, is paired against the MIDDLE Pac-10 team in the rankings, and which has a poor record overall against the MIDDLE Pac-10 team over the years! Who needs that?

Anonymous | 3:13 p.m. July 8, 2008

To the guy yesterday who kept talking about Utah bringing BYU down with it's "anti-LDS" attitude, you may want to rethink your position. Do you really think that if BYU joined the Big 12, they wouldn't get worse remarks by the fans? OU, OSU, even the Texas schools. Bible Belt anyone? I'm pretty sure they have more negative views about the LDS Church then Utah fans do.

And as far as saying that fans' disrespect of the other team degrades a rivalry, check the papers. While I don't condone the insults or violence, the best rivalries in sports suffer from much worse than the BYU-Utah rivalry. Example: like 2 years ago, a guy in a OKC bar was nearly castrated by a fellow patron for wearing a Longhorns t-shirt. In just yesterday's paper there was a story about a group of Red Sox fans assaulting a guy with a baseball bat simply because he had NY license plates and might have been a Yankees fan. Ask people in Ohio and Michigan how bad the fans treat each other. I'm sure our rivalry will look much better. I don't condone the behavior, but ours isn't as bad as you make it.

The Professor | 3:45 p.m. July 8, 2008

Since the final decison would be made by academics, university presidents to be precise, win-loss records, bowl appearances, people in the stands, records in the big dance, etc. are only part of the equation. Academics are the final key. The "U" has impeccable credentials here...the "Y," not so much. The latter has fine undergraduate standing but suffers in comparison with the U in grad programs and research. There is another factor, and that is the simple fact that the Y is not only a private school but a religious one as well which may be a deal breaker. It has been said that if these two schools ever make it to the PAC 10...and they well could...the Y will get in on the U's coat tails...and there is a good deal of truth in this. Too bad too...it is time for both programs to move up.

FACTS | 3:51 p.m. July 8, 2008

Utah vs. Pac 10 since 2002
2002
Arizona 23-17 L
2003
cal 31-24 W
Oregon 13-17 W
2004
Arizona 23-6 W
2005
Arizona 27-24 W
2006
UCLA 31-10 L
2007
Oregon State 24-7 L
no.11 UCLA 44-6 W
2008
Oregon State ?
BYU vs. Pac 10 since 2002
2003
no.1 USC 35-18 L
Stanford 18-14 L
2004
Stanford 37-10 L
no.1 USC 42-10 L
2005
Cal. 35-28 L
2006
Arizona 16-13 L
Oregon 38-8 W
2007
Arizona 20-7 W
no.13 UCLA 27-17 L
UCLA 17-16 W
2008
UCLA?
Washintion?

the facts are right there. utah is 5-3 vs pac 10 schools and byu is only 3-7 vs pac 10 schools. utah would fit better in the pac 10

Re: Dave | 3:54 p.m. July 8, 2008

"...demanding that their "no play on Sunday" and other religious stuff be accommodated by the conference."

I guess all the rumors about the PAC-10 being this liberal bastion of tolerance, acceptance and accomodation for all beliefs only applies if you're willing to abandon your "religious stuff" for a game?

Sports Lady | 3:53 p.m. July 8, 2008

Revenue sharing for the BIG 12 members last year:

FY 2006-07, in milï¿½lions
1. Texas $101.52. Nebraska $81.13. Oklahoma $79.54. Texas A&M $79.45. Kansas $75.26. Texas Tech $63.67. Missouri $58.68. Kansas State $58.39. Oklahoma State $56.9. Colorado $52.411. Baylor $50.512. Iowa State $46.9

Revenue sharing in the Mountain West Conference for last year:

All members received approximately 4.8 million dollars in revenue sharing.

BYU needs to jump ship to the BIG 12. The very worst they could do is increase their revenue by 10 times (the team with the least amount of Revenue in the Big 12 was almost 10 times more than 4.8 million dollars BYU recieved from it's conference).

Jane | 4:25 p.m. July 8, 2008

What an idiotic article. Its written from some entitlement point of view, that the pac-ten should HAVE to share.

There was not one single financial reason given in the entire article why adding two schools would help the Pac-ten...there were several great reasons why they shouldnt, but they were dismissed, because "the pac-ten doesnt want to share."

What a patronizing and completely narrow minded article. It offered nothing more than whining.

Anonymous | 4:49 p.m. July 8, 2008

Why not just merge the Pac 10 with the Mountain West and call it the PAMWC (Pam-wick) 18??? That to me makes the most sense.

Jim | 5:29 p.m. July 8, 2008

There is a reason Utah an BYU are not, and will not be in the Pac 10. I guess it is the same reason you write for this paper....you play, and will always play second fiddle to the big boys.

Feel free to come to Corvallis anytime. Linebacker U will is waiting.

Jonesy | 5:43 p.m. July 8, 2008

Until the BCS forces conferences to be 12 (and I can pretty much assure you the Pac10, Big10 and 7 member BigEast would leave the BCS), this will never happen. I am a Pac10 fan and love things as they are. The Big12, ACC and SEC expanded to 12 out of pure greed. They complain mightily when it does not benefit them. In the P10, everyone plays everyone in football, and everyone twice an Basketball. There is a nice symmetry to the conference as it is. Adding ANY 2 teams makes it less interesting for the fans of the 10 teams already there.

Nothing personal Utah and BYU, but if you want a BCS conference I think your best bet is to merge with the WAC, boot out the weaklings and make the (probably true) argument that you are better than the BigEast.

Beaver1 | 5:44 p.m. July 8, 2008

Exactly Jane. The fact is the Conference of Champions doesn't owe anything to BYU or Utah; they aren't being "snubbed" because they aren't even being considered for inclusion in the first place. The next time they are on the bubble for a BCS game and get passed over for a team that plays in a BCS conference, then they can feel "snubbed."

Can't wait to whoop the Utes again this year...Go Beavs!

Re: Jim | 6:03 p.m. July 8, 2008

Only in Corvallis would fans think that Oregon St. is "Linebacker U". Ever heard of Penn St. or Texas A&M. See you in the fall.

East Bay | 6:25 p.m. July 8, 2008

Its because Provo and SLC aren't real cities. They are the laughing stocks of the nation.

re: BYU Utah not deserving | 6:30 p.m. July 8, 2008

better overall records then most of the pac 10 teams in the past 10 years excluding the obvious USC...etc. they both deserve the chance of playing in a confrence where they can compete for a national title...end of story

Dixie Dan | 6:45 p.m. July 8, 2008

The Pac 10 is not about to give up large television revenue by not playing on Sunday against BYU. Welcome to reality BYU.

TruBlu14 | 7:35 p.m. July 8, 2008

The Pac-10 greed is the same reason we have the BCS. It would be great to see what could happen (monetarily and otherwise) if those honks would start seeing past the end of their noses.

kosimov | 9:11 p.m. July 8, 2008

Why is everyone so worked up over the money that is a necessary part of college athletics? It costs a truckload of money to build and maintain the facilities for all the sports. If a college can get extra money to offset those costs, well, in my opinion, more power to them! If they didn't do that, the only other source of money is .... us!

One thing maybe someone can help me out with, and I apologize for being dumb, naive, misinformed, or whatever I am, but, ... what in the world is "academic censorship"? I am not familiar with that term or the problems talked about here. I graduated from BYU (in the Dark Ages, though, when these problems could not even be dreamed of!), and I didn't notice, even then, a lack of research, other than what is caused by not having a medical school, hospital, etc. My engineering degree was well received by HP, Tektronix, National Semiconductor, Evans and Sutherland, and others I've worked for, who rank BYU at the same level as MIT and Stanford, at least in Engineering, as does the national council which rates schools. Why is BYU substandard?

Chuck Tatum | 10:52 p.m. July 8, 2008

Has BYU ever considered playing an independent schedule, like Notre Dame?

Jordan | 12:19 a.m. July 9, 2008

this is too funny... byu is only being discussed because you have fans (members) all over the west and could be considered a draw... Utah? Portland State has a better chance. I'm sorry, but the difference is money. I know a lot of people donate. But if we don't take in Texas and Colorado, why in the hell would we except two schools from *1* market to get in? Salt Lake can only hold up so many, not including those games that are occaisonally held on Sundays. (for those of you that don't know, replay the Jazz playoff games)

To: Kosimov | 12:27 a.m. July 9, 2008

Actually. BYU is well-respected nationally for many things. Research is not one of them. BYU doesn't not accept grant money from the feds in order to do researc hat the university level. Much of Utah's research money comes from the med school. Most of USU's come from the college of Education and the graduate school. The Carnegie Foundation has tiered the schools according to who is the biggest receivers of research grants and research money. Those schools who receive the most funds and do the most researc hare tier 1 schools. It's a status thing academically. BYU, has the law school, business, and other colleges that are nationally ranked but since they won't accept grant money for research, they'll never have the tier 1 research ranking. Does that help?

Arizona Wildcat Fan | 5:20 a.m. July 9, 2008

I'd love to have BYU and Utah in the the 'pac12' but it won't happen because of money. Oh, and by the way...LUTES BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GO CATS!!!!!!!!1

Ronny Stickney | 7:46 a.m. July 9, 2008

I believe that the Mountain West Confrence should expand to 12 teams and have a championship game I say add Boise St, Fresno St and Either Utah St or Nevada I personaly think that they should get Hawaii. I know that travel costs is an issue. But thats a power confrence.

I Bleed Blue | 10:12 a.m. July 9, 2008

Eventually, BYU will join the BIG 12 and Utah will join the PAC 10.

When that happens, BYU will not play any MWC or PAC 10 teams because that will weaken our schedule.

I know for a fact that there are behind the scenes discussions going on between the BIG 12 and BYU. It's just a matter of time.

Also to Kosimov: | 10:24 a.m. July 9, 2008

Sheesh, I should've used spell check. On top of what I already posted you need to know that research money brings in top of line researchers and programs brings national recognition...brings more money and more recognition. Example, U of Oregon has a BIG nationally recognized program called DIBELS. I would doubt any money coming in still comes from a grant. They're making bundles and their name is being flashed around the nation. The bottom line is: It's the status and recognition that comes because of the research being done.

The real reason | 10:34 a.m. July 9, 2008

The real, deep-down, frightening truth is that the PAC-10 won't ever accept BYU because they've already got a school with a Cougars mascot. Money, academics, regional xenophobia have nothing to do with it. Imagine a conference with two teams with the same mascot! Outrageous! The Pac-10 would be the laughingstock of the NCAA.

You can't have Cougs and Cougars in the same conference.

Past 15 years | 11:01 a.m. July 9, 2008

Over the past 15 years the Utes have a winning record vs the Pathetic 10 conference. Thats a long span, not just 2004. Go look that up, winning record in both football and basketball and I bet BYU is atleast .500 as well.

Re: I Bleed Blue | 11:04 a.m. July 9, 2008

When I was at the Y, back in the late 80s/early 90s, there were always rumors - from "a very reliable source" - which were often passed along as "a fact" that the PAC-10 was very near in final negotiations of admitting us into their conference. Now 2 decades later....never happened. A word of advise...if whoever told you the Big XII was considering adding us WASN'T a Big XII official (not spouse of, neighbor to, friend of a friend) or ESPN reporter, it's another [sub]urban legend. Don't count on it.

ID Couger Fan | 11:31 a.m. July 9, 2008

To Fact: I'm glad Utah has a good record against Pac-10 teams. Now look at how many times Utah has played a ranked Pac-10 team.(1) How many times did they play No 1 USC? (0) How many of those wins came under Urban Meyers? (3) If you look at the trend however, the Y is on the up and the U is starting to fade. Just the fact that BYU has played 10 times to Utah's 8 means the Cougars have reached the LV Bowl (unfortanutely the MWC crowning achievment) a few more times then Utah. I hope that BYU and Utah beat those arrogant Pac-10 teams, but don't try to suggest that the U is better than the Y because the last 2 years they have not been and over the last 30 years they have been Y's little bro.!

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