Reader comments
Utah's concealed-weapons permit law may change
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Huntsman Is a Dork | 3:21 a.m. July 1, 2008
Time for a Governor who supports the Constitution.
Bob G | 5:16 a.m. July 1, 2008
This change does not go far enough. Non residents of Utah should not get gun
permits in Utah, period. Gun permits should be a function of the state they
reside in. I know its hard to give up the extra funds they get but the state has
to suck up and be responsible for how they issue permits. Visiting Utah to get a
permit still has the problem of who is getting these permits. The state does
carry some responsibilty for issuing permits to would be criminals and illegals.
It's one thing to honor other states permits but to be an international
dealer of illegal gun permits leaves a bad taste. We need to forget the fees for
a moment and used the brain god gave some people, Utah politicians are brain
dead anyway and need some guidance that does not have a dollar sign in front of
it. Personally though, I don't think gun permits are constituionally legal
and infringe on my rights to carry a gun loaded or unloaded. Society is not
ready for a Utopia government or ready to give up on the constitution yet.
Jay | 5:21 a.m. July 1, 2008
Another stupid idea. It's nothing more than a tax imposed upon out-of-state
people.
Why not apply this same logic to driver's license?
Why not apply this same logic to driver's license?
Comments continue below
Geezer | 7:05 a.m. July 1, 2008
Utah is running a permit mill that protects nobody. I'll bet that most
nonresident applicants never visit Utah at all. They only want the Utah
concealed weapon permit because it's cheap, it's easy to get, and
it's honored by more than 20 other states.
?? | 7:36 a.m. July 1, 2008
"Why not apply this same logic to driver's license?"
Utah does do the same thing with driver's licenses.
Utah does do the same thing with driver's licenses.
Mahershalalhashbaz | 7:52 a.m. July 1, 2008
Huntsman is a moron. If this passes here, how long before other states
"get even" and make us do the same thing? He wants to relax the
liquor laws to encourage more tourism here, this will do just the opposite. The
place you are most vulnerable is in other states. that is where you need your
concealed weapon the most. I propose we all just start carrying our guns
unconcealed if this passes. That's what they do in Alaska. Cops do it.
Mahershalalhashbaz | 7:57 a.m. July 1, 2008
I hope someone sues Huntsman if this passes and win under the "new"
2nd amendment rights. Out of staters have the right to defend themselves under
the constitution. No matter where in this greatest nation they may be in.
bilbo | 8:04 a.m. July 1, 2008
Why not do what Washington, Oregon, Arizona and many more do?
Enter into a reciprocity pact with other states who have the minimum standards that Utah should realistically adhere to.
Come on, foks, Utah is NOT a 'cutting edge' here.
Look at the above mentioned states and you will realize they have no mkore problems with permit holders doing stupid stuff than Utah RESIDENT permit holders.
Just accept out-of-state permit holders whose home, issuing state meet realistic, minimum standards. Then require an application with a certification letter from home state (some must show license in nperson) and take their money.
What makes some of you think requirements and conditions should be unique to Utah only?
just be realistic.
CCW permit holders cause no problems and have been proven to be exceptional in resposibilty and protocol.
Enter the real world, please.
Enter into a reciprocity pact with other states who have the minimum standards that Utah should realistically adhere to.
Come on, foks, Utah is NOT a 'cutting edge' here.
Look at the above mentioned states and you will realize they have no mkore problems with permit holders doing stupid stuff than Utah RESIDENT permit holders.
Just accept out-of-state permit holders whose home, issuing state meet realistic, minimum standards. Then require an application with a certification letter from home state (some must show license in nperson) and take their money.
What makes some of you think requirements and conditions should be unique to Utah only?
just be realistic.
CCW permit holders cause no problems and have been proven to be exceptional in resposibilty and protocol.
Enter the real world, please.
bilbo | 8:07 a.m. July 1, 2008
to ?? at 7:36.... Utah allows non-residents to travel through Utah while driving
an automobile IF the driver has a valid home state drivers license.
This what previous poster meant.
If you move to Utah, you are no longer a non-resident.
quite simple.
This what previous poster meant.
If you move to Utah, you are no longer a non-resident.
quite simple.
Spoon | 8:24 a.m. July 1, 2008
I love how everything with Huntsman is based on tourism. He doesn't seem
to give a flip what the residents want unless it turns a tourism buck.
That being said, I agree the permitting process needs to be changed here. I more agree, though, with eliminating permits to non-residents. If you can't get a permit in your state under reasonable requirements then work to change your state's process. As a CCW permit holder I was shocked to see the lax standards here in Utah compared to other states. We need to get a handle on it before it comes back to bite us.
That being said, I agree the permitting process needs to be changed here. I more agree, though, with eliminating permits to non-residents. If you can't get a permit in your state under reasonable requirements then work to change your state's process. As a CCW permit holder I was shocked to see the lax standards here in Utah compared to other states. We need to get a handle on it before it comes back to bite us.
whats the big deal? | 9:55 a.m. July 1, 2008
If an out of state person wants a UTAH permit, let them come here, otherwise
they can get a permit in their own state. Why is it Utah's job to give
permits to everyone.
I do think that the permits from other states should be honored in Utah.
I do think that the permits from other states should be honored in Utah.
Roland Kayser | 10:03 a.m. July 1, 2008
If we expect other states to recognize our CCW permits, maybe we should
recognize their gay marriages. That would be reciprocity.
King Louie | 10:13 a.m. July 1, 2008
What Huntsman should have a hard time with is issuing so many permits in the
first place.
My personal feeling is that prior to anyone being licensed with a concealed permit should also receive the training necessary for that person to qualify as a deputy sherrif.
Allowing ordinary Joe-Blows to walk down the street, "packing heat", with only weapons training, is the most absolute supidity one could imagine.
My personal feeling is that prior to anyone being licensed with a concealed permit should also receive the training necessary for that person to qualify as a deputy sherrif.
Allowing ordinary Joe-Blows to walk down the street, "packing heat", with only weapons training, is the most absolute supidity one could imagine.
Bh | 10:17 a.m. July 1, 2008
This is a great step in the right direction. There is no reason that Utah
should be certifying people from out of state as trainers.
Go for it, Gov. Huntsman!!
Go for it, Gov. Huntsman!!
re: bilbo | 10:20 a.m. July 1, 2008
Please research the subject before you open your lips. Out of staters are trying
to get OUR permit because OUR permit is recognized by more states than any
other. We recognize all unites states permits, we are one of the only states who
does that. Thus over 30 other states recognize ours.
Our permit is the best permit all all these United States. Changing it is just stupid ploy. I can't believe the residents of this states are either this naive or actually agree with this insane man.
I vote that we seperate form the Northern half of the State. They are starting to push their worldly agenda on the rest of the counties.
Form a new state called Deseret where we actually obey the Constitution and don't elect elite socialist pretend republican gov's.
Our permit is the best permit all all these United States. Changing it is just stupid ploy. I can't believe the residents of this states are either this naive or actually agree with this insane man.
I vote that we seperate form the Northern half of the State. They are starting to push their worldly agenda on the rest of the counties.
Form a new state called Deseret where we actually obey the Constitution and don't elect elite socialist pretend republican gov's.
End the Permit System | 10:20 a.m. July 1, 2008
Drop the entire permit system. Criminals don't carry permits. It's
nothing more than a tax on law abiding citizens. It's like taxing a person
for working out at the gym to protect them from obesity.
Gun laws should focus on violators, not responsible gun owners and persons responsibly defending themselves.
Gun laws should focus on violators, not responsible gun owners and persons responsibly defending themselves.
2 bits | 10:20 a.m. July 1, 2008
I fully respect the Bill of Rights (including the 2nd ammendment). I also
approve of our State's Conceiled carry law, even though I personally
don't have a permit (because personally I don't need/want one). but I
feel it is good that those who do need/want them can get them.
I am glad the only thing keeping me from getting a permit is that I don't want it (not a law that would prohibit me getting one no matter how badly I want/need it).
HOWEVER, I feel it is circumventing other States rights and their State Sovereignty for Utah to give permits to residents of other states. People living in states with more restrictive permit processes should work on changing the law in their state instead of running to Utah to get their permit.
I am glad the only thing keeping me from getting a permit is that I don't want it (not a law that would prohibit me getting one no matter how badly I want/need it).
HOWEVER, I feel it is circumventing other States rights and their State Sovereignty for Utah to give permits to residents of other states. People living in states with more restrictive permit processes should work on changing the law in their state instead of running to Utah to get their permit.
MARK | 10:56 a.m. July 1, 2008
The Utah CCWP is the closest thing to a national permit there is. This is the
main reason why so many folks from out of state acquire this permit. Our CCWP is
accepted in more states than any other. Gov. Huntsman has said nothing about not
allowing out-of-staters get these, but that they should come here first. And by
the way, it is legal to carry a gun that is not concealed, the only requirement
is that the weapon has to be two steps away from firing, whereas, a CCWP allows
the holder to be ready to fire. The Supreme Court did hold up the 2nd
Ammendment, but what Gov. Huntsman is proposing does not infringe upon our
rights on bit!
Mike | 10:56 a.m. July 1, 2008
First off, do any of you who agree with this proposal have any idea about the
process of getting a CWP in this state? EVERYONE applying for our permit
regardless if your instate or out of state has to provide a copy of a valid
drivers license, the paperwork has to be notorized, the applicant has to be
fingerprinted, and then BCI does a FBI background check. So explain to me how we
are giving permits to criminals and illegals? I'm in favor or raising the
cost for out of state permits the same way we do with hunting permits to
generate the extra revenue we can use to monitor more closely the out of state
permit holders and instructors.
ICABAUD | 10:59 a.m. July 1, 2008
Why should I have to have a permit to carry any weapon? The criminals never
have one, and yet they carry. Do any of you think that any law will stop the
criminal from packing? Then why do I need one?
The only thing the law, or the requirement to get a permit does is create another money hungry government entity that is self serving, and continues to want more and more money for the service of regulating the law abiding citizen.
The law abiding citizen is all that you are affecting. Not the criminals. There are already too many stupid laws on the books, that only affect the good guys, and we need to get rid of them all.
Do as Virginia does and dont require any laws or permits to pack.
The only thing the law, or the requirement to get a permit does is create another money hungry government entity that is self serving, and continues to want more and more money for the service of regulating the law abiding citizen.
The law abiding citizen is all that you are affecting. Not the criminals. There are already too many stupid laws on the books, that only affect the good guys, and we need to get rid of them all.
Do as Virginia does and dont require any laws or permits to pack.
Permit Holder in AZ | 11:00 a.m. July 1, 2008
I lived in Utah for years, took my training in Utah, received my permit in Utah,
then later moved to Arizona. I maintain my Utah permit, and am grateful that AZ
recognizes it so I don't have to repeat the process here. However,
it's absurd for Utah to issue permits to those who begin the process from
outside the state and have no connection to the state. For those of you who
argue that this is a "Constitutional issue", can you explain? We have
a right to bear arms in this country. However, if Utah elects not to issue
permits to people from all over the country, how is that an infringement of
those rights? It isn't Utah's right or obligation to give citizens of
every other state in the union the right to carry a concealed weapon, especially
when it is clear that many of the safeguards in those other states are being
abused. Utah loses credibility when it hands those things out like candy to
people who wouldn't meet the requirements in their home state.
Future CCW holder | 11:12 a.m. July 1, 2008
The reason why everyone wants a Utah Permit is the fact 30 stats recognize Utah
permit No other state permit is more recognized than Utah's. So that is why
everyone wants it permit. It is as close as you can get to a National CCW
permit. If I lived out of state I would get a Utah permit.Besides Utah is not
the easiest permit to get. Personally I would just prefer to open carry my gun
which is legal in Utah. (Some here posting probability do not know that it is
legal)
Hawk | 11:17 a.m. July 1, 2008
Just what Utah needs, attracting the Timothy McVeys of the nation to our state.
The state of residence should grant the permit. Don't use Utah as a diploma
mill for gun psychos.
I thought | 11:26 a.m. July 1, 2008
Last time I heard Timothy McVey used a bomb not a gun.
Anonymous | 11:45 a.m. July 1, 2008
Most pro-gun people on these forums seem easily agitated... I'm not sure I
want you to have a concealed weapon anyway. Let the easily agitated bashing
begin!
Anonymous | 11:56 a.m. July 1, 2008
""There are a lot of places where people can't get concealed
weapons permits, and Utah has been able to fill that void," he said."
Wimmer, what possible rationale is there for Utah filling this void?? What does that have to do with the mission of this Department?
Wimmer, what possible rationale is there for Utah filling this void?? What does that have to do with the mission of this Department?
BD | 11:58 a.m. July 1, 2008
I don't see why we issue any permits to non-residents...period. However,
if necessary, I support the governor. Live in Utah and benefit from Utah's
laws. That doesn't preclude taking your permit with you when you travel
outside the state. It doesn't preclude outsiders from using their permit
while in Utah. It isn't a 2nd Amendment issue or any such nonsense. It is
just like a driver's license or licensing your vehicle. It's a permit
for use within Utah under Utah's laws. If other states don't meet the
need, they can change their laws or their residents can sue. It's not our
responsibility nor should it be our cost. Those people running around Utah with
their guns on their ankles, or wherever they hide them, still can
"protect" themselves as their paranoia and needs dictate. Personally,
I'd love to license my car in Oregon and save a bundle. Since I can't
get there, it would be wonderful if they would just let me fill in the form and
send them a check. They can just trust me that the car isn't stolen or
unsafe to drive...sort of like a Utah permit process.
Thomas | 12:28 p.m. July 1, 2008
A couple of years ago I called the Nevada department of public safety about
applying for a concealed carry permit. They wouldn't honor our permits,
but Utah did their's. I was told I'd have go to Nevada to apply and
go through the rigamarole to get the permit.
Even then, I'd have to apply in the county where I intended to carry. In other words, a permit issued in Clarke County would be worthless in any other county or part of the state.
I don't know if things have changed, except that now Nevada honors our permits.
We oughta be thankful our Utah parmits are good statewide. I don't think non-residents ought to be allowed to get permits. I don't think other states allow us to apply for permits without travelling there.
Even then, I'd have to apply in the county where I intended to carry. In other words, a permit issued in Clarke County would be worthless in any other county or part of the state.
I don't know if things have changed, except that now Nevada honors our permits.
We oughta be thankful our Utah parmits are good statewide. I don't think non-residents ought to be allowed to get permits. I don't think other states allow us to apply for permits without travelling there.
John | 12:41 p.m. July 1, 2008
Most posters obviously have no idea of what Utah law requires for to get a
permit or be an instructor, or the benefits or responsibilities related to a
permit.
However, DPS is clearly failing to do their job if the story's claim is accurate about "...no monitoring of an out-of-state permit holder's criminal record until they apply for renewal. In contrast, Utah instructors and permit holders are checked daily for criminal activity." Did the other 49 states suddenly stop using computers or the NCIC database go down? DPS merely needs to program their computers to do the checks daily for EVERYONE and that problem is solved.
Now, just what is the problem with non-resident permits that needs to be solved, other than bureaucrats complaining they have to work?
However, DPS is clearly failing to do their job if the story's claim is accurate about "...no monitoring of an out-of-state permit holder's criminal record until they apply for renewal. In contrast, Utah instructors and permit holders are checked daily for criminal activity." Did the other 49 states suddenly stop using computers or the NCIC database go down? DPS merely needs to program their computers to do the checks daily for EVERYONE and that problem is solved.
Now, just what is the problem with non-resident permits that needs to be solved, other than bureaucrats complaining they have to work?
Theft of our tax dollars by scum | 1:11 p.m. July 1, 2008
Our permits should be for Utah residents and those willing to visit Utah to
receive the necessary training. It's inappropriate for the state to use our
tax dollars to process permits from those who don't reside in Utah or who
haven't spent into our system through our sales tax.
This is a common-sense provision and the Governor is right. Who cares if they can't afford to travel to Utah. If they don't like their states concealed laws than they should change them. If they want to benefit from our concealed laws than they should come here, pay into our tourist industry and pay sales tax so that Utah taxpayers aren't giving them something for nothing.
This is a common-sense provision and the Governor is right. Who cares if they can't afford to travel to Utah. If they don't like their states concealed laws than they should change them. If they want to benefit from our concealed laws than they should come here, pay into our tourist industry and pay sales tax so that Utah taxpayers aren't giving them something for nothing.
The GOv | 1:12 p.m. July 1, 2008
Well he used the time to speak about the DC law to stump for his own anti-gun
agenda. It will also cost the state money. What a nice guy.
Wimmer's a tax and spend contard | 1:19 p.m. July 1, 2008
Anonymous wrote "Wimmer, what possible rationale is there for Utah filling
this void?? What does that have to do with the mission of this Department"
in response to Wimmer saying "There are a lot of places where people
can't get concealed weapons permits, and Utah has been able to fill that
void."
I agree completely. What possible reason should we have to issue concealed weapon permits, use our state resources, personnel and funds for those who do not reside in this state and have never traveled here. Maybe TAX AND SPEND WIMMER would like us to pay for something else too.
Let's spend, spend, spend, spend and spend. I would like to know how much this cost the state each year in terms of time, resources, personnel and funding so that I can send a bill to Carl and his family since they seem willing to spend my tax dollars on their stupidity.
I agree completely. What possible reason should we have to issue concealed weapon permits, use our state resources, personnel and funds for those who do not reside in this state and have never traveled here. Maybe TAX AND SPEND WIMMER would like us to pay for something else too.
Let's spend, spend, spend, spend and spend. I would like to know how much this cost the state each year in terms of time, resources, personnel and funding so that I can send a bill to Carl and his family since they seem willing to spend my tax dollars on their stupidity.
Our new religion is Icabaudism | 1:27 p.m. July 1, 2008
ICABAUD,
"Why should I have to have a permit to carry any weapon? The criminals never have one, and yet they carry. Do any of you think that any law will stop the criminal from packing? Then why do I need one?"
Mentally ill people and those who go on a shooting spreeS are normally law-abiding people before they do so. Permits make it easier to capture them.
"The law abiding citizen is all that you are affecting. Not the criminals. There are already too many stupid laws on the books, that only affect the good guys, and we need to get rid of them all."
YES GOD. WE BOW BEOFRE THE GREAT DECIDER. Those of us ignorant folk who voted for these laws are wrong while the GREAT MASTER OF THE EARTH is right. WE BOW TO YOUR WISDOM. Tell us which laws you want and those you don't so we can change them to the will of the GREATEST VOTER IN AMERICA. If you want we can buy you a book of statutes and you can go through it crossing out the laws THAT YOU OUR GOD WANT REPEALED and ADD THOSE YOU WANT US TO OBEY.
"Why should I have to have a permit to carry any weapon? The criminals never have one, and yet they carry. Do any of you think that any law will stop the criminal from packing? Then why do I need one?"
Mentally ill people and those who go on a shooting spreeS are normally law-abiding people before they do so. Permits make it easier to capture them.
"The law abiding citizen is all that you are affecting. Not the criminals. There are already too many stupid laws on the books, that only affect the good guys, and we need to get rid of them all."
YES GOD. WE BOW BEOFRE THE GREAT DECIDER. Those of us ignorant folk who voted for these laws are wrong while the GREAT MASTER OF THE EARTH is right. WE BOW TO YOUR WISDOM. Tell us which laws you want and those you don't so we can change them to the will of the GREATEST VOTER IN AMERICA. If you want we can buy you a book of statutes and you can go through it crossing out the laws THAT YOU OUR GOD WANT REPEALED and ADD THOSE YOU WANT US TO OBEY.
Common Sense | 1:29 p.m. July 1, 2008
Why do we have gun permits? What a stupid idea to begin with. We should be able
to carry without them. As if the permit system is going to keep criminals from
packing. Duh.
Patriot | 1:48 p.m. July 1, 2008
So, you people support the 2nd amendment? When are you going to wake up and see
John Huntsman Jr. for the liberal fake RHINO that he is?
This non-sense from the DPS is just an excuse. I'd like to know just who's behind this. Look at the governors office and look into the DPS office and you'll find the moles who don't like the fact that Americans and Utahans have a right to be armed.
Why do we even have a permit process? I think a few of you have hit on the answer. Control anybody?
The 2nd amendment says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Shall not be infringed!! What is it you don't get? This is not a right that the government grants us it is a god given right to protect ourselves from the tyranny of government and the thugs in our society who seek to harm us and our families.
Get rid of the permits all together. If that fails then raise the price high enough to cover the cost of out of state permits.
This non-sense from the DPS is just an excuse. I'd like to know just who's behind this. Look at the governors office and look into the DPS office and you'll find the moles who don't like the fact that Americans and Utahans have a right to be armed.
Why do we even have a permit process? I think a few of you have hit on the answer. Control anybody?
The 2nd amendment says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Shall not be infringed!! What is it you don't get? This is not a right that the government grants us it is a god given right to protect ourselves from the tyranny of government and the thugs in our society who seek to harm us and our families.
Get rid of the permits all together. If that fails then raise the price high enough to cover the cost of out of state permits.
Willard Perry | 2:25 p.m. July 1, 2008
Reading many of these posts helps me to understand the meaning of the term
"gun nut." Jon Huntsman is a liberal? Secede and form the state of
Deseret? You people are smoking funny weed! Scary!!
NO GUNS | 2:28 p.m. July 1, 2008
NO GUNS NOBODY, they are use to kill, nothing else!!!NO PERMIT NO NOTHING,DO
something else cowboy!!! buy a WII stead!!!
Protect Wildlife, there is a lot crazy people that have guns and goes nuts with them. NO GUNS. PERIOD!!!
Protect Wildlife, there is a lot crazy people that have guns and goes nuts with them. NO GUNS. PERIOD!!!
Pistol Pete | 2:41 p.m. July 1, 2008
Not a bad idea. Let the burden of sanity fall in some other state. We've
got enough of our own problems. MAKE THE CHANGE GOVERNOR!
Re "ICABAUD | 10:59 a.m. " | 3:31 p.m. July 1, 2008
The reason for the permit process is so the public can have some level of
assurance that the people carrying conceiled weapons have been trained in what
they can/can't do, how to handle the weapon, how to NOT abuse this
privilege, etc.
The permit is needed also so you have documented proof that you are legal to carry the gun. If you show your permit to an officer when he pulls you over so he is aware that you have the gun and that you are authorised to have it... Things usually go smoother than if you have no documentation and the officer just finds the gun on you when checking you.
It's not an evil government conspiracy to track you or infringe your rights.
The permit is needed also so you have documented proof that you are legal to carry the gun. If you show your permit to an officer when he pulls you over so he is aware that you have the gun and that you are authorised to have it... Things usually go smoother than if you have no documentation and the officer just finds the gun on you when checking you.
It's not an evil government conspiracy to track you or infringe your rights.
Patriot | 5:02 p.m. July 1, 2008
To Willard Perry, Pistol Pete and Re "ICABAUD,
Go back and study your own American History! We don't need a permit to own a gun. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is not granted by the state. This is one of the Inallienable Rights secured by the Bill of Rights. This is not a privilage as Re "ICABAUD would have us think.
Up until the socialist FDR, Americans needed no permits or permission from the government to own arms. This is a modern day invention by the left to control Americans rights to be a free people. This is not a conspiracy it is out in the open.
Yes, Willard Perry - John Huntsman Jr. is a RHINO. He may not qualify by 2008 standards as a liberal but by the standards of 1967 he is a liberal. My standards do not change. He is by no means a conservative. It is obvious you have not followed his policies starting with Energy going through Illegal Immigration. If all you read is the Des News you will never get to the truth. Just Remember it is what they leave out and what they misrepresent that misleads people.
Go back and study your own American History! We don't need a permit to own a gun. The right of the people to keep and bear arms is not granted by the state. This is one of the Inallienable Rights secured by the Bill of Rights. This is not a privilage as Re "ICABAUD would have us think.
Up until the socialist FDR, Americans needed no permits or permission from the government to own arms. This is a modern day invention by the left to control Americans rights to be a free people. This is not a conspiracy it is out in the open.
Yes, Willard Perry - John Huntsman Jr. is a RHINO. He may not qualify by 2008 standards as a liberal but by the standards of 1967 he is a liberal. My standards do not change. He is by no means a conservative. It is obvious you have not followed his policies starting with Energy going through Illegal Immigration. If all you read is the Des News you will never get to the truth. Just Remember it is what they leave out and what they misrepresent that misleads people.
A few facts | 5:13 p.m. July 1, 2008
This story has several factual errors. I'll correct them and provide some
info for any honest enough to consider it:
1-The current program is 100% self funding from the permit fees. Tax money is NOT subsidizing this.
2-Non-residents are subject to EXACTLY the same process as are Utah residents including daily background checks against the Utah crime registry. ANY crime committed outside Utah (whether by a Utah resident or non-resident) may take longer to show up than if the crime were committed in Utah, but that is NOT dependent on whether the suspect is a Utah resident or not.
3-ALL instructors who teach the required classes must be certified by Utah BCI AND they must come to Utah for their training and certification. They are then allowed to teach classes anywhere they choose.
continued below
1-The current program is 100% self funding from the permit fees. Tax money is NOT subsidizing this.
2-Non-residents are subject to EXACTLY the same process as are Utah residents including daily background checks against the Utah crime registry. ANY crime committed outside Utah (whether by a Utah resident or non-resident) may take longer to show up than if the crime were committed in Utah, but that is NOT dependent on whether the suspect is a Utah resident or not.
3-ALL instructors who teach the required classes must be certified by Utah BCI AND they must come to Utah for their training and certification. They are then allowed to teach classes anywhere they choose.
continued below
A few facts, continued | 5:14 p.m. July 1, 2008
4-32 States VOLUNTARILY recognize our permits as valid within their borders. 30
of these States VOLUNTARILY recognize our permits issued to non-Utah residents
on an equal basis as our permits issued to residents. Of the two States that
don't recognize our non-resident permits, one simply does not recognize ANY
non-resident permits from ANYWHERE.
5-With 130,000 permits currently valid, only 2 permits out of ever 1000 (0.2%) are revoked each year. Permits are revoked for crimes as minor as shoplifting, for more serious, but non-gun-related crimes like DUI, as well as for the rare case in which a permit holder actually commits an act of violence with a firearm. The rate at which concealed weapons permits are revoked compares quite favorably with the rates at which police officers are decertified, teachers lose their licenses, or doctors lose their prescription drug rights.
There simply is NO PROBLEM with the current law that has been in place for 12 years. And it is interesting Huntsman did not mention his concerns prior to or during the most recent GOP convention.
5-With 130,000 permits currently valid, only 2 permits out of ever 1000 (0.2%) are revoked each year. Permits are revoked for crimes as minor as shoplifting, for more serious, but non-gun-related crimes like DUI, as well as for the rare case in which a permit holder actually commits an act of violence with a firearm. The rate at which concealed weapons permits are revoked compares quite favorably with the rates at which police officers are decertified, teachers lose their licenses, or doctors lose their prescription drug rights.
There simply is NO PROBLEM with the current law that has been in place for 12 years. And it is interesting Huntsman did not mention his concerns prior to or during the most recent GOP convention.
Timothy | 6:29 p.m. July 1, 2008
Dear cowards who choose to attack Wimmer without identifying yourself,
I am a volunteer on his campaign and encourage you to quit hiding behind a computer and email him and get his view on this. I think the gentleman above "A few facts" made it clear. WE DO NOT subsidize out of state permits! Those who want them pay for every thing that goes into the process, down to the exact penny. There is not a more anti-big tax, big government Representative in Utah so quit with the false garbage attacks.
I am a volunteer on his campaign and encourage you to quit hiding behind a computer and email him and get his view on this. I think the gentleman above "A few facts" made it clear. WE DO NOT subsidize out of state permits! Those who want them pay for every thing that goes into the process, down to the exact penny. There is not a more anti-big tax, big government Representative in Utah so quit with the false garbage attacks.
Re: A few facts #1 | 9:21 p.m. July 1, 2008
(1) Funny, but gun nuts used to complain that fees were being charged at all for
background checks, because there was a federal system that could have been used
for free.
(2) MORE permits means that these daily checks will require MORE $ in order for the state to handle its responsibility to revoke a permit when necessary. Perhaps this is what DPS means when it says it is becoming unmanageable?
With MORE permits being issued to non-residents than residents, DPS is increasingly finding itself relying on non-Utah reporting to determine whether or not a permit should remain valid.
(3) Great, instructors must come to Utah. Cool. But the real enforcement problem is whether or not the instructors are ACTUALLY conducting the course. Perhaps this is what DPS means when it says it it becoming unmanageable? Exactly how is it that BCI determines when an instructor is not fit to conduct a class? With the majority of instructors outside of Utah, this seems like a potential problem.
(2) MORE permits means that these daily checks will require MORE $ in order for the state to handle its responsibility to revoke a permit when necessary. Perhaps this is what DPS means when it says it is becoming unmanageable?
With MORE permits being issued to non-residents than residents, DPS is increasingly finding itself relying on non-Utah reporting to determine whether or not a permit should remain valid.
(3) Great, instructors must come to Utah. Cool. But the real enforcement problem is whether or not the instructors are ACTUALLY conducting the course. Perhaps this is what DPS means when it says it it becoming unmanageable? Exactly how is it that BCI determines when an instructor is not fit to conduct a class? With the majority of instructors outside of Utah, this seems like a potential problem.
Re: A few facts #2 | 9:22 p.m. July 1, 2008
What would happen, for instance, if Utah issues a permit to someone who never
really attended the course? Suppose, that the person uses his weapon in an
unlawful manner and kills or seriously injuries a person. What liability would
the state of Utah have?
It's nice that the instructor came here, but what is that instructor REALLY doing?
4- Great, 32 states voluntarily recognize our permits. They also recognize their own. However, how many of the permit holders are actually getting one from Utah because it is cheaper here than in their own state? Or that it is easier to get one here, rather than there own state?
Should Utah REALLY be in the business of handling other states permits? That's really what this boils down to.
5- Totally IRRELEVANT. 260 permits will be revoked out of the current permit holders, at current rates. What does that have to with police officers, teachers, or doctors?
Should MORE permits be revoked? How will Utah track this? The REAL issue here is not one of U.S. gun rights. It is an issue of Utah liability. How much is it going to cost Utah in terms of liability?
It's nice that the instructor came here, but what is that instructor REALLY doing?
4- Great, 32 states voluntarily recognize our permits. They also recognize their own. However, how many of the permit holders are actually getting one from Utah because it is cheaper here than in their own state? Or that it is easier to get one here, rather than there own state?
Should Utah REALLY be in the business of handling other states permits? That's really what this boils down to.
5- Totally IRRELEVANT. 260 permits will be revoked out of the current permit holders, at current rates. What does that have to with police officers, teachers, or doctors?
Should MORE permits be revoked? How will Utah track this? The REAL issue here is not one of U.S. gun rights. It is an issue of Utah liability. How much is it going to cost Utah in terms of liability?
Re: A few facts #3 | 9:25 p.m. July 1, 2008
Which is easier? Having Utah DPS/BCI investigators/inspectors traveling around
the country to ensure that permit holders are actually attending classes or to
have potential permit holders traveling to Utah to attend class?
It is not Utah's responsibility to ensure that gun nuts across the country can carry a concealed weapon, but yet that's what �A few facts� is trying argue.
Tell us, �A few facts�, WHY is it Utah's responsibility?
It is not Utah's responsibility to ensure that gun nuts across the country can carry a concealed weapon, but yet that's what �A few facts� is trying argue.
Tell us, �A few facts�, WHY is it Utah's responsibility?
A few facts 1-3 | 10:30 p.m. July 1, 2008
When you use the term "gun nuts" derisively you make clear you are NOT
concerned about any particular aspects of Utah's permit law, but simply
oppose the lawful carrying of self-defense weapons generally.
As such, every year or two you will create or latch onto some new supposed "problem" with the system.
In reality, with 12 years experience, 130,000 permits currently valid, and nearly 1000 certified instructors, you simply cannot point to any pattern of problems.
So perhaps you'd be more comfortable in California with their gun laws rather than in Utah with the very sensible laws our voters and legislature have put into place.
As such, every year or two you will create or latch onto some new supposed "problem" with the system.
In reality, with 12 years experience, 130,000 permits currently valid, and nearly 1000 certified instructors, you simply cannot point to any pattern of problems.
So perhaps you'd be more comfortable in California with their gun laws rather than in Utah with the very sensible laws our voters and legislature have put into place.
Michael | 11:03 p.m. July 1, 2008
This is a great idea- since same sex couples now have to travel to California to
marry, why shouldn't gun fanatics have to make a pilgrimage to Utah? We
shoud develop tourism around this- maybe a special package tour where out if
staters can try our guns and our watered down beer and tour the Lake and Temple
and mine pit all in 2-3 days.
Anonymous | 7:09 p.m. July 2, 2008
I don't think there should be permits either. How do I know if permits
are just a way to know who the good guys are so that bad guys can target them?
I'm not paranoid, just a scenario!
We have a real big problem in Utah with voter turnout. And I think that allows the minority to have voice. There were only 23 at my caucus and there are how many in a caucus? 200? I'm going to paraphrase someone, "No matter how good a government is, if wicked men control it, a wicked government will be made of it." Another quote, "Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law--to do your business by the voice of the people. And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity,...then is the time he (God) will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. Mosiah 29:26-27.
We have a real big problem in Utah with voter turnout. And I think that allows the minority to have voice. There were only 23 at my caucus and there are how many in a caucus? 200? I'm going to paraphrase someone, "No matter how good a government is, if wicked men control it, a wicked government will be made of it." Another quote, "Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and make it your law--to do your business by the voice of the people. And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity,...then is the time he (God) will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited this land. Mosiah 29:26-27.
Re: A few facts 1-3 | 12:31 p.m. July 3, 2008
The term "gun nut" is used for anyone who, regardless of common sense,
believes that the motives behind proponents of gun control, is to "grab
your guns". The term "gun nut" is used for anyone who believes
that their is an alienable right to keep and bear arms.
It is not Utah's responsibility to ensure that non-residents have access to carry a concealed weapon in other parts of the country. I have no problem with a Utah gun owner having a concealed weapon -- as long as they are trained and remain in good standing with the state. The *emerging* problem is that the state is beginning to issue more permits to non-residents than residents. Simply because it hasn't been a problem in the past doesn't mean it isn't a problem now.
It is not Utah's responsibility to ensure that non-residents have access to carry a concealed weapon in other parts of the country. I have no problem with a Utah gun owner having a concealed weapon -- as long as they are trained and remain in good standing with the state. The *emerging* problem is that the state is beginning to issue more permits to non-residents than residents. Simply because it hasn't been a problem in the past doesn't mean it isn't a problem now.
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