Deseret News | Texas county doesn't want FLDS raid costs

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Texas county doesn't want FLDS raid costs

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Grandpa Phil | 1:16 p.m. July 2, 2008

RC, we have finally reached a consensus; no more head butting (at least not on this issue). We agree to disagree and leave it at that.

zxcvbnm | 2:13 p.m. July 2, 2008

I just discovered a few more tidbits of info that may label me a conspiricy nut..but here goes.
The "rape by accomplice" charge that Jeffs was found guilty of was a new law and would seem to be as targeted at the FLDS as the Texas law enacted by Hildebrand.
How does a man wanted on state charges get on a FBI (federal) 10 most wanted list.
How does a man get convicted for "rape by accomplice" when there is no convicted rapist.
It seems that this whole affair has been a contrived attempt by several states to put the cart before the horse. Where there were no laws they simply made new laws to suit the situation. Where there was no evidence or no legal means to acquire evidence they simply enlisted the help of third parties (Flora) who just happened to be in communication with Swinton.
No there is no smoking gun, but there is enough gunpowder in the air to keep asking questions.

grc | 2:58 p.m. July 2, 2008

to rc i know these flds children and i know flora and carolyn as they are within 5 years of my age and i know many ex flds as i am. with that said. i know of some abuses but very isolated. do you know of any abuses in the society of the word, or your community? when i was a kid i had every freedom. i had the freedom of at 12 years old to tell my mother where to go (wich i regret today) and how to get there.i had the freedom to do all sorts of evils.all of wich only did me harm.never did i benifit from such action.infact all these evils filled me with such hate.the things my parents told me when i was griong up as an flds are the very things that i have had to apply to my life to come clean and stay away from law problems.wich is why when i hear u talk it makes me think mabee you have infact never even met or mabee even seen one of these people in real life.(out side of the postings on cnn or some other) this type of source would help(fact)

Comments continue below

realitycheck | 4:27 p.m. July 2, 2008

re - grc:

telling your mother where to go (and how to get there) at 12 years old isn't freedom - it's rudeness. I believe the moral teachings of the FLDS are of the highest caliber. My parents also instilled great moral fortitude in me, and I appreciate it.

No - you (and others) misunderstand my point. It's the isolationism and fear-mongering and never-ending sermons that I find so offensive.

Example:
Some posters have said they are free to pursue an education, and then talk about on-line courses because they "dislike the current corruption and filth in todays public school system". But college is not high school (I'm all for home-schooling through HS), and going to college is not just a learning experience, it is a life experience. My point is that the parents fill their children with so much fear of the outside world, the children are afraid to go off to college. They think the whole world outside is "corrupt and filthy" because their parents told them so - over and over again. That significantly reduces the child's future options, and keeps the child "within the fold" for their whole lives.

A never-ending circle of mental repression.

realitycheck | 4:31 p.m. July 2, 2008

and grc - I am not being rude, but your parents certainly should have provided you a better education than you received. In my mind, that borders on child abuse. No offense intended.

to rc | 9:26 p.m. July 2, 2008

many flds men and women have gone to collage.learning is one of our foremost endeavors. people are such that they have to be continually reminded of the truth,and that they have a duty to protect it,hence all the teaching away from a world full of sin.

From the Creek | 9:29 p.m. July 2, 2008

"telling your mother where to go (and how to get there) at 12 years old isn't freedom - it's rudeness. I believe the moral teachings of the FLDS are of the highest caliber. My parents also instilled great moral fortitude in me, and I appreciate it."
======================
Finally something we agree on!

However, I don't agree that I've had my head filled with fear -- caution and good judgment perhaps, but not what I'd call fear. I'm not afraid to go out among you guys; I do it all the time (and I know some very fine people out there as well). But I sure enjoy being around my family and friends much more, as I'm sure most anyone would.

You can say I'm missing out on things, and I guess I am, from your perspective. However, I'm enjoying myself and living a fulfilling life in different ways, and just the same, I can say you really don't know what you're missing out on.

ClueMan | 10:42 p.m. July 2, 2008

One would think the State of Texas should be getting a lot more for their $14 million. Anyone has yet to be charged. Opinions about it I read are based on anything but any empirical evidence at all. It's all emotion and conjecture that would not stand up in any court in the country. I am a member of the mainstream Church but I equate this raid to what happend to the Saints before they headed to the Salt Lake Valley. If they were in fact practicing polygamy or molesting young women in any way shape or form then file charges other wise leave them be to raise their families as they see fit and let them practice their beliefs peacefully and in accordence with the First Amendment of our Constitution.

zxcvbnm | 12:37 a.m. July 3, 2008

Re Clueman: You brought up a good point. It would be interesting to see the accusations against the LDS in Missouri and compare them to the accusations against the FLDS in 1953 and 2008.
Human nature being what it is the rumor and gossip related to all three acts of oppression would probably be similar.
I have read the Governors orders from the Missouri and Short Creek fiasco and both leaders used the same general tone in describing the need for the actions. Perry used his stooges to speak for him as he has a fear of written records being used to chronical his stupidity.

Jane | 8:12 a.m. July 3, 2008

Granted that FLDS is a cult - among about a million in this country - and as far as I know, none of these cults have lost their children. Several religions - to this day - practice arranged marriages; polygamy is legal in the Muslim world, like it or not, and that is 1/3 of the globe and counting. Arranged marriages seem to work no worse than mainstream pick-and-choose (66% divorce rate).

Every hysterical accusation from CPS remained unproven, and much of this seems to have been driven by disaffected cult ex-members with axes to grind, much like the Satanic Ritual Abuse and daycare abuse accusation fiascos. The raid was an expensive failure, and it was not the fault of CPS that nobody got killed, considering the firepower they brought to bear. The kids have been traumatized, and I can't even imagine the agony those parents must have undergone.

If these kids are really "indoctrinated" in a way different from that of home-schoolers who are given every right to teach their children anything they choose, from flat-earth theory to psychedelic mushroom-eating, surely there is a less invasive way of getting mainstream ideas to them.

Peter | 8:32 a.m. July 3, 2008

Ok I went to public schools and I remember teenage girls. The majority were having sex and alot of them caught babies and other things in the process.

Our societies morbid fascination with trying to get females to wait until they are 30 to have kids is insane. From the perspective of parents, they simply cannot deal with their children growing up, and our government plays on that to initiate an effective population control and when it fails then they promote abortion.

Celia | 9:33 a.m. July 3, 2008

Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran was one of the bigots that gave very inflammatory anti FLDS press interviews years before the raid. Without his retoric the raid might have never occurred.

The county should pay.

realitycheck | 11:20 a.m. July 3, 2008

re - Jane

just because 1/3 of the world practices arranged marriages doesn't make it right nor smart. It's probably one of the stupidest practice on the planet. And muslims practice it because they trade their children into marraige for other property or services, as they consider children to be property to be traded as they wish.

They also have performed "honor-killings" of their daughters for going off and marrying the one she loves.

I wouldn't care if every "pick-and-choose" marriage resulted in divorce and every arranged marriage never resulted in divorce. A woman choosing her own husband (and visa versa) is a God-given right. Those that pretend to have a "revelation" of who should be married is a charlatan and has ulterior motives.

And some people simply "believe" that another person is a "prophet" because someone told them so. How can anyone actually believe them? The gullibility of the human race never ceases to amaze me.

It's good to have faith, but to allow someone to control your life based on the ramblings of old men is foolhardy. If you're going to believe in someone, believe in yourself. That's why God gave you a mind of your own.

Anonymous | 11:48 a.m. July 3, 2008

Just one more example of how the government looks at their budget as a bottomless pit, who cares? The taxpayers can take care of it. They don't have a choice anyway. RC, have you ever read the bible? Whether you have or not, for centuries people have used it as their standard of living. Many children in the bible were brought up that way and lived to be great prophets. You probably don't believe in all that 'religious stuff' but most people do. I commend the FLDS for bringing their children up to be good people. And until you have lived among them or made friends among them, you cannot continue to declare just what is going on there. You are just as much in the dark as the rest of us. You're forming you're own opinions and stating them as fact. That is the problem we all have with the things you're saying. Have you been in these "sweatshops?" Have you actually seen the woman hand over her money to the man and never see any of that money again?

Anonymous | 12:10 p.m. July 3, 2008

BTW RC, what if I said I only had a 6th grade education? Now that I have written something that looks a little more grammatically correct to you? Would you be surprised? I think you might want to once again check things out for real before you judge a book by its cover. If I were GRC I would be offended. But amazingly enough, the FLDS don't seem to get offended at the drop of a hat, as our broader society seems to these days.

Anonymous | 12:39 p.m. July 3, 2008

One more thing... yes, I admit I have never seen the prophets in the bible perform their miracles. I sound like a hypocrite because I am expecting you, rc, to things before you believe them as truth. But isn't my belief in God and his prophets more uplifting in my life and others' than perhaps your beliefs in sweat rooms for the FLDS women? Also, there are so many ways in which people can live and have societies that work. And it is not up to you to judge which one is perfect for others, only what is right for you. If people are happy where they are we cannot force them to do otherwise. YI think you can believe now that an FLDS person wanting to leave will not be harmed. They can choose. This mainstream society certainly has its failures. Things that we lack that are gained in an arranged marriage way of life. No group of people and their ways on this earth is perfect.

Anonymous | 12:43 p.m. July 3, 2008

correction, sorry rc, "'see' things before you believe them."

To Realitycheck | 12:51 p.m. July 3, 2008

Are you Elissa Wall, Flora or Carolyn Jessop? I won't believe you if you say your none of them. You have to be, otherwise you wouldn't be so possitively SURE that what you're saying is true.

realitycheck | 12:57 p.m. July 3, 2008

well, I was trying to not offend GRC, and hopefully I didn't. But also hopefully she will ensure her children get a good education since it opens many doors and opportunities.

yes, I have read the bible, from cover to cover several times. And I've gone through baptism, caticism (sp?), comfirmation, and communion (in addition to marriage.) So I've only missed death (so far). I attended roman catholic school through junior high and I was an alter boy throughout my youth. Not sure why you ask, though, as that has nothing to do with it.

Perhaps I am mistaken, but aren't women to be subservient to their husbands in the FLDS? Why should a woman bow to the will of a man? Aren't they equals? Who has the right to insist on two people's marriage if they both don't want it? We both know the answers, and that right there proves most of my point.

Anonymous | 1:48 p.m. July 3, 2008

I asked if you had read the bible because if the FLDS are giving their children so much prayer and study time, it is probably that they are following the example of people like Samuel the prophet or Mary, mother of Jesus. Both were raised in the temple and most of their times spent studying, praying, and glorifying God. I wholeheartedly believe in being able to choose your marriage partner. I also believe that men and women are created equal. That is my choice to decide for myself. These women do not 'escape', regardless of victim statements of embittered ex wives. If they don't like the way this society is set up, they can leave. No one is forcing them to stay. I believe they are pleased with the way things are and this is how they choose to serve their God. Whether you like it or not, it is not up to you. Yes, if the wife called to marry is commanded to marry a 45 year old man at 16 or 17 years old, something is not right, because she is so young. Hopefully this is being taken care of.

realitycheck | 2:57 p.m. July 3, 2008

I am stunned that you would use Samuel or Mary as examples.

Are you saying that Samuel and Mary didn't go to college because their parents told them that everyone in the world is evil and only they are the chosen ones?

Are you implying that the parents of Mary and Samuel hid them from the world so they would have no understanding of how the rest of society works?

What I hear you saying is that if nuns were allowed to have children, then it would be correct for the nun (the mother) to keep that child hidden in a convent for his/her entire childhood, giving them a minor education but hours and hours of scripture - and then saying when they turn 18 they can leave and do as they want. Oh, and by the way - the world hates you and is out to get you, and if you leave then I disown you and never come back...

Don't you understand that forcing a child to become a nun (or similar) is unfair to the child unless you provide the tools to live outside the "convent"? Your children are not choosing this life - you are.

Anonymous | 3:54 p.m. July 3, 2008

RC...Raise yur own kids ....send your own kids to college....and let others raise their children.
Your continual harping about something that is none of your business is getting redundany and self serving.
You have accused people you don't even know of things you have no business accusing them of.
FLDS members have answered your questions....yet you keep up the same drivel.
The community college in Shortcreek is available to whomeever wants to go.
They have choices and make them........let it be.

realitycheck | 4:54 p.m. July 3, 2008

I'm sorry but nothing about this is self-serving, other than the joy of perhaps having one child reach his/her full potential in life. And the abuse of childen is (and should be) everyone's business. Make no mistake about it - by forcing them to become like you, you are abusing them.

And I am not "accusing" anyone of anything. I am stating facts that you freely admit. You just never had to look at it this way before, and it must hurt to finally see the pain you are causing.

Sorry to have had to open your eyes for you, but perhaps it will help you or your children (or their childen) in the future. I certainly hope so. Good luck to you, and God bless.

Schatz | 11:08 p.m. July 3, 2008

You are hardly stating facts.....you are driveing your own agenda for your own purpose of butting into something that is none of your business. If any american choses to educate themselves it is their business.....just as the education of their children as well as their choice of religion is their own business. This is a free country and not a place where anyone has to live up to anyone elses expections let alone yours.
Live your life....have fun..but stay out of other peoples business. Almost every accusation against those people has proven false. Almost every word that you have written has been full of thinly masked antiflds propoganda.
Get your own life and live it and quit worrying about other peoples children.

Peter | 1:23 a.m. July 4, 2008

Reality Check,

....forcing them to be like you....

All parents try to teach their children what they know and by doing so make similar copies of themselves.

You think their society is so bad yet they have no STD's, their families are loyal, they promote good morals, they do not tolerate substance abuse, they are all well clothed, well fed, seem to be all employed with roofs over their heads and surrounded by people they know their entire lives if they CHOOSE to stay in the society.

You state well CPS is bad, FLDS is bad, well what is your solution love? Send them all to hollywood to be movie stars??

I think I would much prefer it to ...say a life as a child in New York going to their prison schools, or in LA where you must assosciate/join a hate gang just to survive in much of the city, or a rural Babtist community where the majority of the leaders preach one thing and practice another.

Their children have fewer teen pregnacies, illnesses, suicides, and drug addiction then say...the entire rest of America, though I am not sure on the Amish, which tend to be much stricter.

Enter namerealitycheck | 12:58 p.m. July 4, 2008

I know you all understand what you are doing to your children, and I understand that you believe it to not only be the right thing to do, but also your duty to God to do it.

I simply look at it differently. I know the children are well fed, well cared for, and loved. I know they will follow in your footsteps, and there could be a lot worse things in life.

But I see the same thing the ancient mayans used to do. You are sacrificing your children to God. No, you are not strapping them down and driving a stake into them. But you are strapping them down and driving a stake into their futures.

I am not saying your way of life is bad. It is actually quite good. I just believe you should give your children a choice in life. And given the way they are isolated from society and over-sermonized, I don't believe they really have a choice once they are adults. They are just too indoctrinated into your society.

I don't know how to find a good middle ground here given your strict religious lifestyle, but perhaps it's something to think about.

shazamm | 4:34 p.m. July 4, 2008

I can see reality checks point. Looking at the flds from the outside, I can see that they do some things really well and it is a healthy lifestyle for the little kids...until the girls turn twelve and the boys turn 17 or 18...then it seems to be really unhealthy for them...It would be scary to be the girls trying to keep away from the leering old so called prophet and his cronies...sizing them up as future child brides. If you are a guy...well, there just aren't enough brides to go around...so out you go if you aren't just perfect, or a friend of the leadership. The women who leave don't seem to have freedom to come back and visit family...and it appears that it is not easy to leave and few attempt such a harrowing experience. It also appears that higher education is not a goal for any of these people. The Amish and FLDS people do preserve their lifestyles and protect their families from outside influence, but it comes at a price. The old man, child bride thing is a disgrace.

for Reality check:-) | 5:32 p.m. July 4, 2008

you ask "How many will see an opera or a ballet.....

RC, I am FLDS, born and raised, and against my better judgment, I have chosen (WOW, a choice on my OWN!!) to participate in this discussion to provide a little perspective. I personally know four different young ladies (Ladies, mind you, not wannabeBritney/Hilton's) who took Ballerina Classes! I have played in an instrument in an orchestra (or two..)! I started a guitar class once! I play 3 different instruments! (I even chose which ones i wanted to learn..) I have seen videos(Gasp!) of the great barrier reef, and have an(FLDS)uncle (among others) that have dived off our coasts! in fact I am a scuba diver myself!! I even took several college classes that I wanted to take to educate myself! and I owned my first motorcycle at the age of 15! (my parents advised against it, but let me choose!) I now experience the wind in my hair on a honda, at least once a week! (I even give my children rides on it!) my father told me once: If I choose right, I have the opportunity to choose again. FLDS parents try to teach children to choose right.

Anonymous | 5:41 p.m. July 4, 2008

dude

Wingnut | 6:27 p.m. July 4, 2008

Reality check do you not have anything better to do than keep up this incessant noise? How many have you convinced? Your arguements are no better than they were with your first post. You have been answered in spades. By the way, I enjoyed your posts in another forum mocking the way the FLDS dress.

All I am saying is give it a rest.

Contrarian | 7:14 p.m. July 4, 2008

Reality check should do what her name suggests.

Female sexuality is tightly bound to reproduction. The world we live in may give opportunities for education and career, but it fails miserably to be responsive to the nature of women.

Girls begin preparing for childbirth and motherhood in their early teens, often before menarche when it their mental prepartation takes the form of romantic fantasy that begins to dominate their thoughts. They "fall in love" repeatedly during their teenage years and it is practice for finding a male who has the traits of loyalty, responsibility, strength, seriousness, and honor - a man who can care for her and her offspring.

Unfortunately, for girls today, this important aspect of their maturation is disparaged while they are pressured to deny their sexuality and imitate men - imitate them rather than love them. This distortion leads to girls mistaking sex for love and the inevitable series of "relationships" moderated by chemical alteration of their bodies to make them sterile sex partners for irresponsible males.

This is what is going on in the guise of education and career, RC, while our young women are used up and childless at thirty-five.

Son of a Plig | 10:59 p.m. July 4, 2008

grc

My dad is a polygamist, but not from the FLDS group, although my mom was a child abducted in the Short Creek Raid. If I said what group I come from, everyone here would suddenly become "experts" on every aspect of my life, so I'm going to leave them guessing.

One of the things these people assume is that polygamist and their children are uneducated. Unfortunately, and I don't mean any offense, your punctuation and spelling don't do us plig offspring any favors. I guess that's why I felt the need to write this.

You see, when people claim polygamist don't believe in education, I usually sit back, and watch all these "experts" make fools of themselves, then I expose myself.

You see, I come from a long line of "uneducated" polygamist. We simply can't seem to take our education past a few bachelor degrees, from accredited schools. Let's see, my dad (the plig) has a bachelor degree and a masters. My mom, has two four year degrees. I myself have a couple bachelors. I also have sisters with degrees. There are so many degrees in my HUGE family, I can't remember them all. (Mostly Science and Engineering)

Re: Son of a Plig | 3:47 a.m. July 5, 2008

I have no doubt what you say is true. It occurs to me that grc may be a pseudonym that Reality Check used to discredit FLDS.

Plato | 9:52 a.m. July 5, 2008

Contrarian 7:14 Poster:

How wise you are. The evolution of society has imposed a skewed model of sexual development and purpose. The entertainment media with all of its selacious dysfunction has tainted the true and natural roles of the sexes.

When the creation and nurturing of offspring through divine purpose and eternal committment is rejected as old fashioned, and true intimacy is replaced with casual sex and carnal gratification, then the world of Reality Check becomes the acceptable norm.

RC is offended by the conservative (old fashioned) standards of a family order that is fast dissappearing from the world scene. Because we are free to gratify our immediate urges in today's moral climate, it does not follow that this model of behaviour is better than the old fashioned one the FLDS have chosen for themselves.

If freedom means anything to the people of America then the social engineering of the police state of Texas through its CPS juggernaut is wrong.

RC and his like minded confederates (Judge Walther etc.) are free to voice their opinion but it should never trump individual choice guaranteed and protected by the Constitution . . .

Re:Son of a Plig | 10:05 a.m. July 5, 2008

Well, Good for you. You may have some education, but why do polygamist all sound so dumb when they talk and do dumb things?

Do polygamist mind being called PLIG'S?

realitycheck | 10:21 a.m. July 5, 2008

re - son of a plig

Nothing I am talking about has anything to do with polygamy. Having multiple wives certainly shouldn't have anything to do with it. I am talking about the isolation of the children and the over-sermonizing.

Perhaps the isolation is a result of polygamy, but the effect is different. I'm pretty sure no one cares if a man wants to have more than one wife, as long as the women are of age and not forced into the marriage.

And Plato - I have nothing in common with Judge Walther, and am totally against the actions of CPS.

I just wish you wouldn't hide your children away and put the "fear of God" into them so much that it prevents them from having goals outside of religion. That's all.

It's pretty clear to me that you believe SO much in what you do that what I am telling you is impossible for you to understand, and that you take my words as insults. It isn't meant to be that way. But clearly you are taking offense.

You have your own little world, and like it that way. But it reduced your people's options in life.

Shazamm | 1:05 p.m. July 5, 2008

To Plato and Contrarian: you make some excellent observations...in an ideal world, people would all fall in love, marry young and have children, plow their fields and live an abundant life. The polygamists have gotten off the track though and gone too far when they marry and reproduce with child brides!!! Why aren't these men marrying 35 year olds who don't have a chance to marry? Because they are selfish and sinful in their lusting hearts. They also take away a most precious innate gift from God, which is freedom. These young girls are robbed of the freedom to grow up and choose who they will marry, what they will do. They say they are not forced, but there are subtle pressures and societal norms that push them in this direction. Reality Check thinks that they should have more options and freedom to pursue education and experience. Granted, in the world today, there are many things that are terribly wrong, (i.e. sin, corruption, drugs, immorality, etc.) But if you believe mormon doctrine, the reason we are here is to sort through this and reject evil, not be shut away and sheltered from it...only to face evil within the FLDS community.

More like fallout | 1:49 p.m. July 5, 2008

Wingnut said ï¿½Someone posted "this is like watching a train wreck in slow-motion" I agree with their assessmentï¿½

I picture it more as a nuclear bomb blast, the fallout from this mess will be around for quite a while.

Leave them be | 3:01 p.m. July 5, 2008

Most people in all races, cultures and religions just want to raise their families and practice their beliefs without any interest in interfering with their neighbors. However, there is that small minority in every group that just wants to stir the pot, and there are some pot stirrers here, many of them professing to be Christians.

The majority of polygamists do not marry underage girls or commit the abuses that people assume are part of their beliefs, but they have been stereotyped by the media as being like that. If these abuses were taking place on a large scale, the authorities would have put polygamy out of business long ago. Does anyone see any evidence of that having happened? Texas tried, but they were slapped down by the courts. There have been no indictments, no arrests and no convictions except for Jeffs. Until that happens, leave them alone.

I am LDS and while I think they are being mislead by uninspired teachings of men I do not hate them because that is the way they have chosen to believe. Judge not that ye be not judged.

To Leave them be | 3:52 p.m. July 5, 2008

We don't hate them, we are to judge righteously, not stick our heads in the sand and let anything happen just because people believe in it, and not say anything against injustice. Even if the majority don't marry underage girls, the leadership of this group does marry underage girls. This is a very difficult thing to prosecute but it doesn't mean it isn't happening. It's not right...there are a lot of things happening in this world that are not right and we can't stop these things from happening either.

Contrarian | 4:19 p.m. July 5, 2008

Shazzam, Your comparatively delicate allusion to FLDS men as being ï¿½selfish and sinful in their lusting heartsï¿½ is, at bottom, just one more diatribe based on sex. Polygamy is a social construct, not a sexual behavior, but sex is always emphasized by critics because it is the ocean in which we swim ï¿½ well, not swim; we are barely afloat.

Critics concentrate on the purported sexual behavior within polygamy while ignoring the fact that polygamy is an effective social construct that allows women the time and security necessary to be good mothers.

By comparison our mainstream system is an abject failure. In addition to the fact that childbearing is delayed through most of a womanï¿½s most fertile and healthy years, the vast majority of mainstream women have been forced to leave the children they do have so they can take inane, low-paying jobs! Both delay in childbearing and the thwarting of womanï¿½s natural reproductive cycle that allows babies to be borne at regular intervals are not only destructive to a womanï¿½s mental and physical well-being, but are the very roots of marital discord and break-up. Continued...

Contrarian | 4:17 p.m. July 5, 2008

Shazamm, Continued: Is it freedom to fall in love with a young man who expects you to chemically alter yourself for his convenience?
Is it freedom to be able to choose abortion when you find yourself pregnant at fifteen? Is it freedom to be able to get birth control at the public clinic? Is it freedom to be instructed in sexual perversion, contraception, and venereal disease rather than instruction in the way oneï¿½s body and mind function to bring forth new life? Is it freedom to make any choice but marriage and motherhood?

Shazzam to Contrarian | 7:38 p.m. July 5, 2008

In my family and social construct, the women grow up, get as much education as they can, marry as virgins when they are eighteen or older, bear many children, raise them at home, serve others, and are free to choose other enriching pursuits. Many mainstream women are choosing the paths that you mention which do not bring as much happiness but the point is that it is their choice and not something that is socially forced upon them. There are no doubt many who choose to live the polygamous life, but I am concerned about the one's who would rather choose something else and are held captive by circumstance in this society. This isn't so much about sex and childbearing as it is about control over very young girls who do not have a sense of themselves and the ability to make these choices. Developmentally they begin to have a sense of who they are and the ability to make better choices after age eighteen. Are you saying that the polygamous society (where many are on welfare)is the solution to the ills of mainstream women? Don't put all women into one mold. Many, not by choice, have to work.

Contrarian to Shazzam | 8:42 p.m. July 5, 2008

You say,

"Many mainstream women are choosing the paths that you mention which do not bring as much happiness but the point is that it is their choice and not something that is socially forced upon them."

and in the same paragraph you say,

"Many, not by choice, have to work."

Isn't work that is "not by choice" something that is "socially forced upon them"?

You have a very narrow view of choice as it applies to young women, preferring to focus on a perceived lack of choice among teenage girls in the FLDS while characterizing mainstream teenagers as being free to choose. Aren't you forgetting that mainstream girls are primary targets of social propaganda that maligns motherhood, treats pregnancy like venereal disease, tells them that what they really want is enjoyable sex, and maybe a career, but not love, marriage and motherhood?

Shazamm | 9:39 p.m. July 5, 2008

I do not have a narrow view of choice as it applies to young women. I stand by what I said about FLDS young girls. Old men wielding unrighteous power to marry young girls is not right. Tripping me up in my words is not going to change that. Mainstream teenagers have more propaganda coming at them but I believe they have more choice than FLDS girls. Many young women in mainstream society are making great choices by the way, and the process makes them stronger....those who make the wrong choices sadden me, but I think most young girls and older women for that matter, want love, marriage and motherhood. That option isn't always available to them..I don't believe that flds girls have many other options than early marriage and motherhood. My point being, there is safety from all of that unsavory propaganda within the polygamous society, but lurking therein is the greater evil of suppressing freedom. You can't convince me that they have a lot of freedom.

Son of a Plig | 8:17 a.m. July 6, 2008

To "Re:Son of a Plig" who asked the following:

Question 1:
Well, Good for you. You may have some education, but why do polygamist all sound so dumb when they talk and do dumb things?

Response 1:
There are a few reasons for this.

Big media loves people that are different. It makes for a good story, and gets more people to watch them, which in turn generates more income. Big media seeks these people out, and then sensationalize as much as possible. The sad truth is if big media doesn't do this, they lose viewers.

People from Colorado City speak differently, just like people from the South speak differently. This doesn't mean they're dumb. President Bush has been dealing with this redneck stereotype his entire political life.

You say they do dumb things, but gave no examples of what you think is dumb. Give some examples of dumb behavior, and then you will get a better reply. In general, dumb behavior comes from lack of common sense. One mistake a lot of people make is they assume a college degree comes with a lifetime supply of common sense. If only that were the case.

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