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Texas county doesn't want FLDS raid costs
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jimi | 8:46 a.m. July 1, 2008
I see where the head of CPS has already run off to hide in retirement. I wonder
how much per year he will cost the Texas Taxpayers? Under his direction the
Texas CPS has earned a well deserved reputation for outrageous lack of control,
including haveing children under their care murdered and raped. There are
citizens of this state that wouldn't take the word of the 'Gov'
to give an accurate time of day. If the state can pass the cost of CPS'
idiotic actions on to others they will.
realitycheck | 9:24 a.m. July 1, 2008
all that money spent, and the kids still went back to the repressive
isolationist slave camp called FLDS. What a waste.
Anyone buying the clothes being manufactured in sweat-shop conditions by the FLDS slave-women? If so, you're helping keep these women glued to sewing machines for minimum wage, and they won't see most of the money - it will go to the church leaders for disposition. Better you give them shelter and try to show them the world is not against them - but their own men are. Then maybe they can have a real life.
Anyone buying the clothes being manufactured in sweat-shop conditions by the FLDS slave-women? If so, you're helping keep these women glued to sewing machines for minimum wage, and they won't see most of the money - it will go to the church leaders for disposition. Better you give them shelter and try to show them the world is not against them - but their own men are. Then maybe they can have a real life.
Comments continue below
wingnut | 9:26 a.m. July 1, 2008
Someone posted "this is like watching a train wreck in slow-motion"
I agree with their assessment.
Grandpa Phil | 9:47 a.m. July 1, 2008
RC, you have the FLDS confused with the Moonies. Come on, you had a credible
though slanted argument last week regarding them not being able to make
decisions; let's not blow it this week with accusations of sweat shops. We
are starting to think you are just doing this to get attention for yourself.
Grandpa Phil | 9:51 a.m. July 1, 2008
RC, everyone agrees that the $14+ Million was wasted but, when you elect bad
officials and give them the ability to abuse their authority, sooner or later
you have to pay the Piper. We all remember how the Piper story ended. Ironic.
realitycheck | 10:20 a.m. July 1, 2008
really not sure what you don't understand, grandpa phil.
The FLDS trains their children to conceal and accept abuse, and puts such fears of the outside world into their heads that they must forsake their future. It's ridiculous.
And I really don't care whether you find me credible. You sticking up for these people just shows you don't find their treatment of women and children troubling, whereas I find it morally reprehensible.
To each his own, but most people cannot even imagine how repressive the FLDS regime is, whereas I can directly relate - since I experienced the same thing in a Vietnam prison camp.
If you don't think the women work in sweatshops, what do you think? They have benefits and make a decent wage?
Grandpa - how about you open your eyes and stop trying to justify their actions. You are beginning to sound like FLDS....
The FLDS trains their children to conceal and accept abuse, and puts such fears of the outside world into their heads that they must forsake their future. It's ridiculous.
And I really don't care whether you find me credible. You sticking up for these people just shows you don't find their treatment of women and children troubling, whereas I find it morally reprehensible.
To each his own, but most people cannot even imagine how repressive the FLDS regime is, whereas I can directly relate - since I experienced the same thing in a Vietnam prison camp.
If you don't think the women work in sweatshops, what do you think? They have benefits and make a decent wage?
Grandpa - how about you open your eyes and stop trying to justify their actions. You are beginning to sound like FLDS....
GrannyMary | 10:30 a.m. July 1, 2008
To RealityCheck: How do you know it is sweatshop conditions for the FLDS ladies?
Do you know this is a truly repressive society? There have been so many stories
told, proved to be untrue.
If you mean by a repressive society children cared for by loving mothers, taught manners and modesty, meals of homegrown foods, which the children probably help raise. A world without "MySpace," and the trash on TV. Well, maybe we need to be a little more repressive.
I admire the FLDS ladies for their enterprise. More power to them, if the clothes fit any of my grandchildren I would have my order in!
If you mean by a repressive society children cared for by loving mothers, taught manners and modesty, meals of homegrown foods, which the children probably help raise. A world without "MySpace," and the trash on TV. Well, maybe we need to be a little more repressive.
I admire the FLDS ladies for their enterprise. More power to them, if the clothes fit any of my grandchildren I would have my order in!
realitycheck | 10:48 a.m. July 1, 2008
LOL. Granny - you're kidding, right? These people have a total lack of
civil rights and freedom and you find that acceptable? You too must care much
more about your religion than you care for the civil rights of these
children.
You go ahead and order some clothes from them. You can propogate the repression. I suggest you pick up some blood diamonds while you are at it.
Then, if you really want to help, adopt one of these kids and send him/her to college, let them fall in love and get married to someone they actually want to marry, let them have children that will have a full range of choices in life, and let them pursue a career of their own choosing. Then you can say you not only helped, but you saved an entire family from a life of servitude.
The life choices of FLDS children are SEVERLY limited - surely you must see that. Pick 100 careers and ask yourself how many the FLDS children can pursue. Perhaps 1 or 2 if you're lucky. I'm waiting for an FLDS boy or girl to grow up and run for Congress. Instead, they will sew or saw.
You go ahead and order some clothes from them. You can propogate the repression. I suggest you pick up some blood diamonds while you are at it.
Then, if you really want to help, adopt one of these kids and send him/her to college, let them fall in love and get married to someone they actually want to marry, let them have children that will have a full range of choices in life, and let them pursue a career of their own choosing. Then you can say you not only helped, but you saved an entire family from a life of servitude.
The life choices of FLDS children are SEVERLY limited - surely you must see that. Pick 100 careers and ask yourself how many the FLDS children can pursue. Perhaps 1 or 2 if you're lucky. I'm waiting for an FLDS boy or girl to grow up and run for Congress. Instead, they will sew or saw.
Justin | 10:51 a.m. July 1, 2008
It's funny to me that outrage over the supposed abuse of 450 children has
turned to concern over the cost of taking illegal action against the citizens of
the State of Texas. The original planners of the action were on a quest. The
cost of that quest in both human terms as well as dollars was the furthest thing
from their minds. I believe that $14,000,000 will prove to be just a drop in
the bucket when all the financial costs of this fiasco are finally totaled up.
It is a good thing that the Texas state government has deep pockets. I also
worry that no one will ever determine the extent of the human costs to the
children. I hope and pray that the children have not been permenantly damaged
psychologically from the raid.
zxcvbnm | 10:51 a.m. July 1, 2008
Repressive, sweat shop, slave, regime can now be added to escape, waterboarding, and lost boys, cult.
Throw in a few more words like stareing and we can create a dossier on the whole bunch.
Whoops we already have........
Grandpa Phil | 11:25 a.m. July 1, 2008
RC, the parents warned their children that the outside world would persecute
them and that the standards outside were decadent. Then, along came CPS who
justified a thousand times over, everything their parents had warned them about.
Guess the parents were right; you cab BET that is how the children see it now.
You are right about one thing, at this point, I see nothing reprehensible about
they way they treat their children. I don't live there and see what goes
on every day, but what you describe as reprehensible is something I choose to
call a parents' God-given right to raise their children as they see fit.
We have had this same discussion a dozen times and you still don't get it.
I don't care if those big bad North Vietnamese guys refused to let you go
to college or make your own decisions. They weren't that mean to me; they
only shot at me but I got to shoot back. Stop putting your standards of
parental upbringing on everybody else and raise your own kids any way you want.
And see a VA doctor about that persecution anxiety thing you have; it is
treatable.
Grandpa Phil | 11:42 a.m. July 1, 2008
It would tickle me NO END to see an FLDS run for Congress. Maybe then,
we'll get some laws passed that will rein in CPS abuses nationwide. He/she
could count on my vote.
COSMO | 11:47 a.m. July 1, 2008
May Texas pay,pay,pay! :-)
realitycheck | 11:47 a.m. July 1, 2008
GP - obviously you still don't get it. What you would shout at the top of
your lungs in approval, I would spend a lifetime trying to stop. Guess
that's why this is called the land of the free.
Too bad the children will never benefit from the freedom.
Stop putting your standards of parental upbringing on everyone else by saying that it is a parent's right to deny basic civil rights to their children. It's wrong. And see a shrink for that lack of understanding you seem to have. You would perserve a society that forbids basic human rights and then give me a hard time for criticising it? Open your eyes, gramps - you're not so old that you cannot see, are you?
It's too bad you cannot grasp freedom. Otherwise you would have a different stance on the subject of the isolation and servitude of children. Don't let religion cloud your mind from seeing the lack of freedom these victims are enduring. You're beginning to sound like FLDS.....
Too bad the children will never benefit from the freedom.
Stop putting your standards of parental upbringing on everyone else by saying that it is a parent's right to deny basic civil rights to their children. It's wrong. And see a shrink for that lack of understanding you seem to have. You would perserve a society that forbids basic human rights and then give me a hard time for criticising it? Open your eyes, gramps - you're not so old that you cannot see, are you?
It's too bad you cannot grasp freedom. Otherwise you would have a different stance on the subject of the isolation and servitude of children. Don't let religion cloud your mind from seeing the lack of freedom these victims are enduring. You're beginning to sound like FLDS.....
wyomingkid41 | 12:25 p.m. July 1, 2008
"It's too bad you cannot grasp freedom."
"Too bad the children will never benefit from the freedom"
They will probably benifit from all that lawsuit money however....waco was 2.5 million per......"DO GOODERS are real goodIt's too bad you cannot grasp freedom. at spending other's money....this wassuch a bad thing going on there yoIt's too bad you cannot grasp freedom.u would think they wouldall have done it PRO BONO.
"Too bad the children will never benefit from the freedom"
They will probably benifit from all that lawsuit money however....waco was 2.5 million per......"DO GOODERS are real goodIt's too bad you cannot grasp freedom. at spending other's money....this wassuch a bad thing going on there yoIt's too bad you cannot grasp freedom.u would think they wouldall have done it PRO BONO.
realitycheck | 12:36 p.m. July 1, 2008
never said what Texas did was smart, nor right. Just said that the FLDS parents
have no clue on how to raise children without subjecting the children to civil
rights abuses and a loss of future options.
not all that difficult to understand...
not all that difficult to understand...
Grandpa Phil | 12:41 p.m. July 1, 2008
RC, I don't care what their religion is; they are PARENTS and they have
inalienable rights to do all of the things you don't approve of. I would
preserve every parents' rights to the care, nurturing, maintenance and
custody of their children, PERIOD. You claim to know what these kids can and
can't do. You claim to know what they are going through. You claim to
know what their parents are doing to them. All this, despite all of the FLDS
parents who have entered comments telling you that you do not know what you are
talking about. I don't know them any better than I know you, but I believe
THEM. Freedom is something truly appreciated by those who have had to fight for
it. It is barely understood by those who are protected. I have served in three
overseas wars and one "police action" I can't even talk about. I
understand freedom just fine and have earned the right to stand up for theirs
(FLDS) when I see government officials and bigots trying to deny them their
rights. I don't advocate my standards over theirs as you do; I say leave
them to their own.
Grandpa Phil | 12:45 p.m. July 1, 2008
RC, the only entity I know that expouses civil rights of children as you do is
the UN. The day those laws become US laws is the day we all lose.
realitycheck | 12:49 p.m. July 1, 2008
I'll make this real simple for GP and the rest of the FLDS supporters...
any parent that does not allow a girl/woman to choose her own husband is a terrible parent.
any parent that does not allow their child to experience variety in their youth is a bad parent.
any parent that teaches that a child will be damned if they do not follow strict religious doctrines that have nothing to do with morals is a bad parent.
any parent that disowns their child for living a moral life as the person see fit, is a bad parent.
And any parent that chooses their religion over their husband, wife, or child is unfit to be a parent.
easy enough to understand? You realize that FLDS parents fail all 5 tests? 'nuff said.
any parent that does not allow a girl/woman to choose her own husband is a terrible parent.
any parent that does not allow their child to experience variety in their youth is a bad parent.
any parent that teaches that a child will be damned if they do not follow strict religious doctrines that have nothing to do with morals is a bad parent.
any parent that disowns their child for living a moral life as the person see fit, is a bad parent.
And any parent that chooses their religion over their husband, wife, or child is unfit to be a parent.
easy enough to understand? You realize that FLDS parents fail all 5 tests? 'nuff said.
realitycheck | 12:56 p.m. July 1, 2008
GP - it seems obvious to me that you do not understand freedom, or you would not
be approving of these "parents" treatment of children. You state
bigots are trying to deny them their rights? Seems to me the bigots are the
FLDS and they are the ones doing the denying of rights. Perhaps you need to get
out more, since you seemed to have learned nothing in your "3 wars and
police action". And stop trying to sound like you are so experienced - I
spent time in places you cannot imagine and have seen things you can only have
nightmares about - so stop preaching freedom and open your eyes. These kids are
never going to have a full life and you know it.
zxcvbnm | 1:05 p.m. July 1, 2008
OK RC....we will take you at your word.
Nuff said means you won't say anymore. Wonderful.
Write your drivel in a book and see if it sells as well as the other works of fiction about the subject.
Thank you for your input. Bye now.
realitycheck | 2:13 p.m. July 1, 2008
that's ok, zxcvbnm - we know you can type the first row of the keyboard,
hence your name - and we know you can make jokes about this. Too bad (for the
kids) you don't see the seriousness of the situation.
Thanks for your non-input. See ya.
Thanks for your non-input. See ya.
Wild Bill | 3:20 p.m. July 1, 2008
Again the reality check attacks contenue.
The kids of the FLDS are much better off than in any foster home. I live in foster homes and look what It did to me I can't even spell.
The thought of the Goverment and CPS trying to raise
children when they are really putting them directly in the the path of prison and the welfare system
is sick.
I perfer the lifestyle of the FLDS rather the
USA of A. Your way of life is yours why do you want all people to think like you. Sounds like you would fit well with the hitler youth.
Well that is just a thought.
Hey maybe we could let all the pot smokers out of prison so they might have a life. That is a crime.
Locking up people for pot, wow real progressive
soceity.
I am appalled at all the hypocrissy surrounding the UNITED STATES. We are the ones who dropped the H bomb
on innocent people. We have thousands of H bombs
just waiting to be used. And wow did you see oprea last night she was just fabulous.
Get a life, the world is headlong into destruction and your onboard.
The kids of the FLDS are much better off than in any foster home. I live in foster homes and look what It did to me I can't even spell.
The thought of the Goverment and CPS trying to raise
children when they are really putting them directly in the the path of prison and the welfare system
is sick.
I perfer the lifestyle of the FLDS rather the
USA of A. Your way of life is yours why do you want all people to think like you. Sounds like you would fit well with the hitler youth.
Well that is just a thought.
Hey maybe we could let all the pot smokers out of prison so they might have a life. That is a crime.
Locking up people for pot, wow real progressive
soceity.
I am appalled at all the hypocrissy surrounding the UNITED STATES. We are the ones who dropped the H bomb
on innocent people. We have thousands of H bombs
just waiting to be used. And wow did you see oprea last night she was just fabulous.
Get a life, the world is headlong into destruction and your onboard.
Wild Bill | 3:33 p.m. July 1, 2008
Whom ever is fueling the rumors and lies that are being repeated by reality
check please stop.
The Sweatshops and slave labor camps are in the TEXAS state prison system where they pay .10 per hour.
Reality check, your way off base. The Children of the FLDS as in the LDS will be much better off than
the general population. The LDS church was once what the FLDS is today. 100 years from now they will be in the mainstream. Just wait you will see.
The thought of you in any office of authority is
scary. I am of the beleif that the FLDS are better
parents than the State of Texas. Your beleif that
the State of Texas is the better parent might be
true if you like abusers and rape,murder and drug dealing. That is a proven fact amoung the foster homes of Texas.
Easy Choice huh.
Good luck.
Wake up and get the real facts rather than the media rumor mill.
The Sweatshops and slave labor camps are in the TEXAS state prison system where they pay .10 per hour.
Reality check, your way off base. The Children of the FLDS as in the LDS will be much better off than
the general population. The LDS church was once what the FLDS is today. 100 years from now they will be in the mainstream. Just wait you will see.
The thought of you in any office of authority is
scary. I am of the beleif that the FLDS are better
parents than the State of Texas. Your beleif that
the State of Texas is the better parent might be
true if you like abusers and rape,murder and drug dealing. That is a proven fact amoung the foster homes of Texas.
Easy Choice huh.
Good luck.
Wake up and get the real facts rather than the media rumor mill.
David | 3:42 p.m. July 1, 2008
RealityCheck, pt1
> any parent that does not allow a girl/woman to choose her > own husband is a terrible parent.
Even _if_ true, and we have reports on both sides. NOT ILLEGAL. I trust Carolyn Jessop to be truthful about this about as much as I trust Jeff's daughter. So. how do _you_ know the truth? Who's your source, or is it just hearsay? (my source is hearsay and I acknowledge it... but I'm not trying to convict anyone on it)
> any parent that does not allow their child to experience
> variety in their youth is a bad parent.
Again... source?
Define "variety". That's a broadly qualitative assessment. Lets work for quantitative.
> any parent that does not allow a girl/woman to choose her > own husband is a terrible parent.
Even _if_ true, and we have reports on both sides. NOT ILLEGAL. I trust Carolyn Jessop to be truthful about this about as much as I trust Jeff's daughter. So. how do _you_ know the truth? Who's your source, or is it just hearsay? (my source is hearsay and I acknowledge it... but I'm not trying to convict anyone on it)
> any parent that does not allow their child to experience
> variety in their youth is a bad parent.
Again... source?
Define "variety". That's a broadly qualitative assessment. Lets work for quantitative.
Hey now | 3:47 p.m. July 1, 2008
second try. Reality check will not let reason color her reality, so don't
muddy the water with facts and figures.
Again, reasoning with RC is like teaching a pig to sing, frustrates you, irritates the pig.
Also using the arguement that posters on msnbc mock the beliefs and dress of the FLDS is by no means high moral ground. Being part of a bllod thirsty mob doesn't make you right and standing for what is right is often a lonely place to be.
Again, reasoning with RC is like teaching a pig to sing, frustrates you, irritates the pig.
Also using the arguement that posters on msnbc mock the beliefs and dress of the FLDS is by no means high moral ground. Being part of a bllod thirsty mob doesn't make you right and standing for what is right is often a lonely place to be.
realitycheck | 3:51 p.m. July 1, 2008
I have no clue where anyone got the impression I supported what Texas did. CPS
and Texas was wrong, and went about it totally incorrectly. I'm really not
sure there is a solution to the problem, and I imagine these children are
destined to become little mini-me FLDS clones.
But that doesn't mean that the FLDS is not an abusive and repressive lifestyle, that removes all free-will and future hope from the children. It is, and will continue to be. And I'll keep telling you exactly that.
Texas would be a worse parent, I agree - but you are simply pointing out the lesser of two evils. Wouldn't it be nice if the kids could be raised in a supportive environment instead of a repressive one? A novel thought indeed.
But that doesn't mean that the FLDS is not an abusive and repressive lifestyle, that removes all free-will and future hope from the children. It is, and will continue to be. And I'll keep telling you exactly that.
Texas would be a worse parent, I agree - but you are simply pointing out the lesser of two evils. Wouldn't it be nice if the kids could be raised in a supportive environment instead of a repressive one? A novel thought indeed.
David | 3:56 p.m. July 1, 2008
RC,
_WHAT_RIGHTS_ are these children being denied?
The right to a TV, a car? You are manufacturing "rights" for them, that NO ONE recognizes the world over. Someone (maybe even you) posted amnesty international's list (and even THAT isn't governemtn official by any stretch. I'll repost it here for convenience.
* subsistence rights, including the rights to food, shelter and health care;
Ok, they've got all of that, next.
* development rights, which allow children to reach their fullest potential, including education and freedom of thought, conscience and religion;
Ok, they're educated, but this "right" isn't about parents instructing their children, its about a government imposing their will
* protection rights, such as the right to life, and to protection from abuse, neglect or exploitation;
This seems to be a point of contention, but... where are the convictions? And I don't mean of Jeffs, I mean of these parents, we don't convict people because of their associations in this country.
* participation rights, which allow children to take an active role in community and political life.
Given the FLDS rules from within (their leaders come from FLDS members).. this looks good too.
So what rights are you talking about?
_WHAT_RIGHTS_ are these children being denied?
The right to a TV, a car? You are manufacturing "rights" for them, that NO ONE recognizes the world over. Someone (maybe even you) posted amnesty international's list (and even THAT isn't governemtn official by any stretch. I'll repost it here for convenience.
* subsistence rights, including the rights to food, shelter and health care;
Ok, they've got all of that, next.
* development rights, which allow children to reach their fullest potential, including education and freedom of thought, conscience and religion;
Ok, they're educated, but this "right" isn't about parents instructing their children, its about a government imposing their will
* protection rights, such as the right to life, and to protection from abuse, neglect or exploitation;
This seems to be a point of contention, but... where are the convictions? And I don't mean of Jeffs, I mean of these parents, we don't convict people because of their associations in this country.
* participation rights, which allow children to take an active role in community and political life.
Given the FLDS rules from within (their leaders come from FLDS members).. this looks good too.
So what rights are you talking about?
How now | 4:02 p.m. July 1, 2008
My kids were little mini mes, not by design, just worked out that way. My boys
emulated me, naturally. I think that may be a NATURAL thing. I betcha this is
the experience for most. RC if you have kids, I kinda hope you don't, I
absolutly promise to not make them adhere to my standards, and I won't even
be offended if they are mini-you.
ctjctj | 4:11 p.m. July 1, 2008
"I imagine these children will become..." Well done, a statement that
your prediction of their future is just your opinion.
"..is NOT an abusive and repressive lifestyle" nor does it mean it is.
"It is [an abusive and repressive lifestyle] and will continue to be. And I'll keep telling you exactly that." is an OPINION.
"..is NOT an abusive and repressive lifestyle" nor does it mean it is.
"It is [an abusive and repressive lifestyle] and will continue to be. And I'll keep telling you exactly that." is an OPINION.
realitycheck | 4:12 p.m. July 1, 2008
I guess I need to start every post with the statement that I disagree with
Texas' actions and would not want the kids in CPS hands. And what the FLDS
do to their children is not illegal - just immoral.
That said, many here do not seem to understand what is happening to these kids. And yes, I stand by my 5 tests of a bad parent and FLDS meet all 5 criteria. I say they are really bad parents, you disagree. Fine.
David - not sure what you mean by "source?". The source is my opinion, which you can take or not take. But you cannot argue that these kids have few life choices after years of indoctrination.
How many will see an opera or a ballet, or be a ballerina? How many will play in an orchestra? How many will see the great barrier reef of Australia or play on the soccer team in college? How many will feel the wind in their hair riding a Harley down the road (heaven forbid!!). There are a million things these kids won't do - not because of time or money, but simply because of their fanatical parents.
That said, many here do not seem to understand what is happening to these kids. And yes, I stand by my 5 tests of a bad parent and FLDS meet all 5 criteria. I say they are really bad parents, you disagree. Fine.
David - not sure what you mean by "source?". The source is my opinion, which you can take or not take. But you cannot argue that these kids have few life choices after years of indoctrination.
How many will see an opera or a ballet, or be a ballerina? How many will play in an orchestra? How many will see the great barrier reef of Australia or play on the soccer team in college? How many will feel the wind in their hair riding a Harley down the road (heaven forbid!!). There are a million things these kids won't do - not because of time or money, but simply because of their fanatical parents.
Get it RC | 4:18 p.m. July 1, 2008
Just as you will find in any culture (do you know what that means)you will find
those that don't do well with it and many that do. We have just as good of
examples of good honest people in the FLDS as you can find that are not good and
honest. I don't see a problem raising your children to learn responsibilty
from a young age to get through this life. Better than the bums you see on the
streets doing nothing. Variety! you have got to be kidding this children have
more freedom to think and chose on thier own than you have even imagined. RC
why would you want what you think is your right taken from anyone else. GET IT.
FREEDOM this is America and I hope it stays that way.
Anonymous | 4:24 p.m. July 1, 2008
Lets see, I think I'll let my kids experience "variety." Should
I let them eat junk food to their heart's content? Perhaps I should let my
daughter wear one of those "hooker" outfits like some of the pop stars
and see if the teenage boys chase after her. Maybe I'll try letting my son
lie around the house and watch TV all afternoon instead of helping with chores
around the house. What kind of "freedom" is that? Those are
"civil rights?"
The FLDS have proven themselves to be good parents who teach their kids to be active and to cooperate on chores which help the whole community. They feed them healthy food and dress them in modest and functional clothing that they make themselves. It is insulting to women to put them down because they choose to generate income by starting up their own business. This is america, and they have a right to be productive and to live in peace.
The FLDS have proven themselves to be good parents who teach their kids to be active and to cooperate on chores which help the whole community. They feed them healthy food and dress them in modest and functional clothing that they make themselves. It is insulting to women to put them down because they choose to generate income by starting up their own business. This is america, and they have a right to be productive and to live in peace.
Re "realitycheck | 10:20 a.m." | 5:09 p.m. July 1, 2008
[Reality check 10:20] doesn't need any first-hand-knowlege or any stinking
proof for his/her accusations and hyperbole about the evil doings of the FLDS...
Somebody wrote a book about it, so it must be true!
Now I see how so many in Texas CPS got caught up in thinking they know exactly what goes on in the compound (mostly based on rumors, books from FLDS detractors and hoax phone calls).
Reality usually isn't as bad as your detractor's rumors make it out to be, nor as innocent as their supporters make it out to be. For instance... I'm not as stupid as my Mother-in-law thinks I am nor as perfect as my Mother thinks I am. It's usually somewhere in the middle.
Moral of the story... Don't believe EVERYTHING you hear from either side and you'll be less likely to end up where Texas CPS and "Realitycheck" are today.
Now I see how so many in Texas CPS got caught up in thinking they know exactly what goes on in the compound (mostly based on rumors, books from FLDS detractors and hoax phone calls).
Reality usually isn't as bad as your detractor's rumors make it out to be, nor as innocent as their supporters make it out to be. For instance... I'm not as stupid as my Mother-in-law thinks I am nor as perfect as my Mother thinks I am. It's usually somewhere in the middle.
Moral of the story... Don't believe EVERYTHING you hear from either side and you'll be less likely to end up where Texas CPS and "Realitycheck" are today.
realitycheck | 5:53 p.m. July 1, 2008
wow - I must have hit a nerve with my opinion. You all keep asking for facts
and instead you are getting my opinion.
And then you take my opinion and use outrageous examples like eating all junk food or wearing "hooker" outfits to try to discredit it.
Why does everything have to be an extreme to you people? Why can't the children have a range of choices that doesn't include drugs and sex, but includes college, travel, and a full view of the world?
As long as you hide your children from the world, then you are also hiding the world from your children, and denying them much of life - and I will be criticising you for it.
It's funny that a whole bunch of posters criticised the FLDS for things that they have no proof of (child brides, etc), but the things that I criticise, which require no proof as they are self-evident - gets people the most upset. I guess that's because you can call out the others by saying "where's your proof" but when it's obviously true you have no response except exaguration.
And then you take my opinion and use outrageous examples like eating all junk food or wearing "hooker" outfits to try to discredit it.
Why does everything have to be an extreme to you people? Why can't the children have a range of choices that doesn't include drugs and sex, but includes college, travel, and a full view of the world?
As long as you hide your children from the world, then you are also hiding the world from your children, and denying them much of life - and I will be criticising you for it.
It's funny that a whole bunch of posters criticised the FLDS for things that they have no proof of (child brides, etc), but the things that I criticise, which require no proof as they are self-evident - gets people the most upset. I guess that's because you can call out the others by saying "where's your proof" but when it's obviously true you have no response except exaguration.
Wild Bill | 6:48 p.m. July 1, 2008
Hey RC, I agree with you. The world would be a much better place if we had no
religion.
That way all people would be forced to face the facts.
It would be a much better world if It were perfect.
All people could travel get a degree from Stanford or harvard and live in the Hamptons.
It's not a perfect world, nor will it ever be,
because my Idea of perfect is not your idea of
perfect.
So why does the Goverment have the right to remove children from there parents, with the exception of physical harm to the children?
I know way to many "good parents" who are crap.
So where and who draws the line, not the Goverment.
Its time we took charge and voted out the SOB's
who are stuffing war,taxes and CPS bull down
our thorats ad nasuem.
Yes RC you have a point all children should have a perfect life.
That way all people would be forced to face the facts.
It would be a much better world if It were perfect.
All people could travel get a degree from Stanford or harvard and live in the Hamptons.
It's not a perfect world, nor will it ever be,
because my Idea of perfect is not your idea of
perfect.
So why does the Goverment have the right to remove children from there parents, with the exception of physical harm to the children?
I know way to many "good parents" who are crap.
So where and who draws the line, not the Goverment.
Its time we took charge and voted out the SOB's
who are stuffing war,taxes and CPS bull down
our thorats ad nasuem.
Yes RC you have a point all children should have a perfect life.
zxcvbnm | 6:55 p.m. July 1, 2008
Look RC.....there have been many examples given of FLDS women getting an education......you ignore the examples.
There have been posts from FLDS citeing personal education and accomplishments.........you ignore them.
There have been citeings of observations of FLDS children by Texas Goverment employees as well as experts in various social disciplines......you ignore them.
You are getting to sound like the CPS.
From the Creek | 6:58 p.m. July 1, 2008
Hi realitycheck. :) Want to be confused with some more facts?
We agree that you don't agree with how we raise our children. Ok, fine. However, many of your reasons for disagreeing with us aren't even true.
One thing you haven't gotten over is the college and education thing. I've said it before that education is highly valued among our people. What we don't value is the current corruption and filth that's all too prevalent in the public education systems. Fortunately, there are still some good ways to get education, and it's encouraged to be as highly educated as circumstances allow. I'm constantly learning things, mostly through experience, and also via the internet. I've even taken one distance learning course (software programming), but I admit it was pretty useless as it didn't teach me anything I didn't already know (oh, no! there's a self-taught FLDS software & website programmer!)
I have never been denied pursuing any worthwhile course in life. Oh, I also have some brothers & sisters who have played in our community orchestra and band. And, yes, I've gone motorcycle and ATV riding.
We agree that you don't agree with how we raise our children. Ok, fine. However, many of your reasons for disagreeing with us aren't even true.
One thing you haven't gotten over is the college and education thing. I've said it before that education is highly valued among our people. What we don't value is the current corruption and filth that's all too prevalent in the public education systems. Fortunately, there are still some good ways to get education, and it's encouraged to be as highly educated as circumstances allow. I'm constantly learning things, mostly through experience, and also via the internet. I've even taken one distance learning course (software programming), but I admit it was pretty useless as it didn't teach me anything I didn't already know (oh, no! there's a self-taught FLDS software & website programmer!)
I have never been denied pursuing any worthwhile course in life. Oh, I also have some brothers & sisters who have played in our community orchestra and band. And, yes, I've gone motorcycle and ATV riding.
calm bill | 7:58 p.m. July 1, 2008
Realitycheck needs to do a reality check on themselves before accusing others of
wrong doing.
sothatsithuh@? | 8:06 p.m. July 1, 2008
RC; ridin harley has never been denied to those who could safey ride one. my
wife is a ballerina she sings very well plays the piano and teaches school. i
could build a house start to finish & to code
@ that. most of the "million things" we won't do because we choose not to. top of that there is alot of things that wasts time and money that could be used to bless another who is in need. why persecute those who live to bless others. if you'er jealous that that you've never lived with people who really cared about you and you're safty and you're time ,please make it good for others around you its got to start somewhere. and please don't be offended it's not a jab just the truth.
@ that. most of the "million things" we won't do because we choose not to. top of that there is alot of things that wasts time and money that could be used to bless another who is in need. why persecute those who live to bless others. if you'er jealous that that you've never lived with people who really cared about you and you're safty and you're time ,please make it good for others around you its got to start somewhere. and please don't be offended it's not a jab just the truth.
Earl | 8:28 p.m. July 1, 2008
Education, Great stuff.
You learn something new and depressing everyday.
You learn something new and depressing everyday.
wingnut | 12:17 a.m. July 2, 2008
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose.
Grandpa Phil | 8:07 a.m. July 2, 2008
RC, if two people tell you that you are sick, lay down. TAKE A HINT, man. I
have not heard one comment that has agreed with you in DAYS. Your assertion
that main stream America agrees with you is self-serving. I say they agree with
me - also self-serving. Neither of us is completely right - or completely
wrong. SOme of the FLDS folks have weighed in and debunked your assertions
regarding things the children are denied. I doubt you will listen to them even
though they know their children best. They come across as sincerely caring
parents who want what is best for their children. What they consider is best is
VERY different than what you feel is best. I agree with them. My children are
home-schooled for the same reason theirs are home-schooled. My children have
strict rules of conduct for the same reason theirs do. Parents set boundaries
and rules for the same reason our Heavenly Father does - because he Loves us.
We teach them righteous principles and then let them govern themselves. You
don't see that because you don't WANT to see it. There are none so
blind as he who WILL not see.
wtswrng | 8:32 a.m. July 2, 2008
I have read all the comments and see that RC's opinion is down the same
lines as CPS and Government of Texas but RC should be grateful to receive a
"reality check" so RC can not just make an opinion based on false
information. I am glad RC is not in the Government.
Now on to better things!
This quote from the above article: "Schleicher County's treasurer said she has received nearly $69,000 in invoices. The money has gone for things like travel, food, office supplies, and "expert witness" fees for ex-FLDS members and others who consulted on the raid."
I am not educated in law, but perhaps someone can help me, not with opinion, but with knowledge. Is it legal for "witnesses" to be purchased? I understand by the above statement that "witnesses" supplied the county with an invoice. Is this illegal? Could someone who knows shed some light on this for me?
Now on to better things!
This quote from the above article: "Schleicher County's treasurer said she has received nearly $69,000 in invoices. The money has gone for things like travel, food, office supplies, and "expert witness" fees for ex-FLDS members and others who consulted on the raid."
I am not educated in law, but perhaps someone can help me, not with opinion, but with knowledge. Is it legal for "witnesses" to be purchased? I understand by the above statement that "witnesses" supplied the county with an invoice. Is this illegal? Could someone who knows shed some light on this for me?
Grandpa Phil | 9:10 a.m. July 2, 2008
Courts are supposed to take into account the fact that expert witnesses are paid
witnesses and that their testimony is usually "scewed" in the
direction of the side paying their fee. That is, unless the witness is saying
what the judge wants to hear as it has been in this case.
Re "wtswrng | 8:32 a.m." | 9:45 a.m. July 2, 2008
Witnesses are not "Purchased" but they are also not expected to have
to pay their own expenses when they are compelled to appear by the court.
Last year my wife was required to testify in a court case in Baltimore. The court was required to pay for her flight, lodging, etc while she was in Baltimore. It doesn't mean they "Bought" her testimony.
Last year my wife was required to testify in a court case in Baltimore. The court was required to pay for her flight, lodging, etc while she was in Baltimore. It doesn't mean they "Bought" her testimony.
zxcvbnm | 9:59 a.m. July 2, 2008
At a minimum "expert" witnesses are paid expenses.
Many State expert witnesses are on retainer by the State on a contract type basis. Defense witnesses are paid for their testimony by the defense.
I say this from experiences in knowing several "experts" in their respective fields that make quite a bit of extra income as "experts".
I would like to know the names of the "experts" that were paid by the county. Knowing the people giving the advice may shed some light on the mindset of those government officials seeking advice.
Can't the newspaper find the "experts" with formal freedom of information act requests?
realitycheck | 10:18 a.m. July 2, 2008
wow - hated by many, loved by none. Now I know what a deposed FLDS member feels
like.
I'll say it again. I am not on Texas' side on this, and I haven't been saying ANYTHING the CPS or Texas has been saying. Totally different issues from those of Texas and CPS. They want to find and prosecute illegal activity and I freely admit that my issues with FLDS are on ethical and moral grounds, not legal grounds. I DISAGREE WITH WHAT TEXAS DID, and certainly wish they hadn't done it.
And I wouldn't want the govt to impose my views on anyone, nor force anyone to value or use my opinion. And that's all I've been stating - is my opinion. Most here disagree with me and that's ok. Doesn't change my mind, and probably doesn't change yours. And I've said it enough that I won't repeat my issues in this article. You all already know my thoughts on the FLDS. And perhaps one child will get a little more freedom and a little less indoctrination, and that's about all I could hope for.
Not sure where the confusion is, nor where the hate is coming from.
I'll say it again. I am not on Texas' side on this, and I haven't been saying ANYTHING the CPS or Texas has been saying. Totally different issues from those of Texas and CPS. They want to find and prosecute illegal activity and I freely admit that my issues with FLDS are on ethical and moral grounds, not legal grounds. I DISAGREE WITH WHAT TEXAS DID, and certainly wish they hadn't done it.
And I wouldn't want the govt to impose my views on anyone, nor force anyone to value or use my opinion. And that's all I've been stating - is my opinion. Most here disagree with me and that's ok. Doesn't change my mind, and probably doesn't change yours. And I've said it enough that I won't repeat my issues in this article. You all already know my thoughts on the FLDS. And perhaps one child will get a little more freedom and a little less indoctrination, and that's about all I could hope for.
Not sure where the confusion is, nor where the hate is coming from.
realitycheck | 10:37 a.m. July 2, 2008
Grandpa Phil -
I'm only going to say this once. Perhaps you didn't read the FLDS site where they showed the "schedule" for the kids. There was more praying, sermons, and religious time in that schedule than you could shake a stick at. And not much else. I agree with everything you have said about homeschooling, etc. But I believe the FLDS goes way beyond that, and get into mind control via massive religious indoctrination starting at a very early age.
They believe it is their right to do so (and it is) and that they are correct in doing so. I find it reprehensible that they put so much religious pressure on children, and believe it permanently scars the child.
simply differences of opinion. But I would hate to be an FLDS child, and they would hate having me for one, because I was way too curious as a kid and would have questioned everything they said. And probably wouldn't have been satisfied with their answers. It's just my nature. Don't take it wrong.
I'm only going to say this once. Perhaps you didn't read the FLDS site where they showed the "schedule" for the kids. There was more praying, sermons, and religious time in that schedule than you could shake a stick at. And not much else. I agree with everything you have said about homeschooling, etc. But I believe the FLDS goes way beyond that, and get into mind control via massive religious indoctrination starting at a very early age.
They believe it is their right to do so (and it is) and that they are correct in doing so. I find it reprehensible that they put so much religious pressure on children, and believe it permanently scars the child.
simply differences of opinion. But I would hate to be an FLDS child, and they would hate having me for one, because I was way too curious as a kid and would have questioned everything they said. And probably wouldn't have been satisfied with their answers. It's just my nature. Don't take it wrong.
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Everyone better be careful driveing thru the county now that Doran will have to write a lot of tickets to generate revenue to pay the raid costs........lol
Maybe the citizens that wanted something done about "those people" can hold a bake sale or even sell a few more tee-shirts with the "Pologamy Capital of Texas" written on the front.
Gee wiz guys.....isn't it just a shame that there isn't enough money in the budget to get rid of the $450,000 a year taxpayer.
Quit whineing.....the Gov already said that the state would handle the shortfall.....the rest of the citizens of Texas will have to pay for this mess created by your hysteria.