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The case of the anti-Mormons
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I have to make a comment | 10:51 a.m. July 3, 2008
On the "numbers of people that practice polygamy". I'm reminded
of the story of a starfish that got saved when many starfish were not as they
washed ashore. Some said "what does it matter? There are so many"!
The little boy said "It matters to this one." That's like
polygamy, but in the opposite. Maybe it has not affected too many in the Mormon
church. But it matters to some of us and it insults and hurts our intelligence.
And actually, it hurt my family. I will not back down until everyone realizes
this.
Scott Petersen | 11:02 a.m. July 3, 2008
First, I mean no offense by what I am going to post although I am sure someone
will be offended. I apologize in advance.
I find it hard to believe that people on here such as Trust ME, that claim to have twenty years of attending Church meetings, watching General Conference, earning a degree at BYU, serving an honorable, full-time LDS mission, and being married in the LDS Temple for 18 years that have obviously left the church and are now "ANTI MORMON"; have done so because of things available on the internet.
My guess is, someone offended these people and they are obviously bitter about something; not because of key doctrine they must have believed at some point to sit through 20 years of conf. talks, serve a mission, gradutate from BYU & marry in the temple.
It has been said many times, the Church and the way Jesus Christ would have it is perfect, it's the holier than thou, self righteous, opinionated, bigoted members, including some in high positions, that screw it up and give it a bad name. Doesn't mean the teachings aren't true and good for everyone.
Have a great 4th of July Holiday.
I find it hard to believe that people on here such as Trust ME, that claim to have twenty years of attending Church meetings, watching General Conference, earning a degree at BYU, serving an honorable, full-time LDS mission, and being married in the LDS Temple for 18 years that have obviously left the church and are now "ANTI MORMON"; have done so because of things available on the internet.
My guess is, someone offended these people and they are obviously bitter about something; not because of key doctrine they must have believed at some point to sit through 20 years of conf. talks, serve a mission, gradutate from BYU & marry in the temple.
It has been said many times, the Church and the way Jesus Christ would have it is perfect, it's the holier than thou, self righteous, opinionated, bigoted members, including some in high positions, that screw it up and give it a bad name. Doesn't mean the teachings aren't true and good for everyone.
Have a great 4th of July Holiday.
Trust Me | 11:20 a.m. July 3, 2008
Scott,
You are trying to make yourself feel better, but it is a delusion. Your guess would be completely wrong. Just because YOU have a hard time believing something, does not mean it is not true.
A testimony of the truth of the Church is not some abstract idea that you can fill with whatever doctrinal content you want. When I thought I had a testimony of the Church, it was based on specific doctrines and teachings that I had been led to believe were true, right, and good.
As I studied (in seminary, on my mission as a zone leader and AP, and at BYU), I simply learned that many of the doctrinal things that had been part of my testimony just weren't true.
No, I was never offended by anyone (other than the usual arrogance and stupid mistakes people make). No, I did not have an affair, or start drinking, or start looking at pron. In fact, I continue to live just as I did before, including attending Church meetings regularly. I just don't always attend LDS Church meetings.
Go ahead and live in your delusional world, but it's a lie. You should be used to that.
You are trying to make yourself feel better, but it is a delusion. Your guess would be completely wrong. Just because YOU have a hard time believing something, does not mean it is not true.
A testimony of the truth of the Church is not some abstract idea that you can fill with whatever doctrinal content you want. When I thought I had a testimony of the Church, it was based on specific doctrines and teachings that I had been led to believe were true, right, and good.
As I studied (in seminary, on my mission as a zone leader and AP, and at BYU), I simply learned that many of the doctrinal things that had been part of my testimony just weren't true.
No, I was never offended by anyone (other than the usual arrogance and stupid mistakes people make). No, I did not have an affair, or start drinking, or start looking at pron. In fact, I continue to live just as I did before, including attending Church meetings regularly. I just don't always attend LDS Church meetings.
Go ahead and live in your delusional world, but it's a lie. You should be used to that.
Comments continue below
I agree | 11:46 a.m. July 3, 2008
I've had good friends in the church. When I found out some things that are
not spoken of in church (at least from my experience) I would tell it to those I
had been close to. The reaction? There must be something wrong with me! Did
their exerience with me tell them this? No. I had never had a history of
trying to hurt others or telling lies. I lost some friends this way. I have a
feeling that if I found new information that would change my mind (which I will
not because I have looked thoroughly) that they would still feel the same. How
could this be? Don't they want me to come back to them? I don't
think so. This is because I have now been on the "other side" so to
speak and they would be hesitant to trust me again. There are many that are
"comfortable" in their teachings and don't want to have their
lives changed or uprooted. They don't want to "make waves"
because their life makes sense (as it's been told to them over and over for
years). Sad, huh?
RDB | 11:47 a.m. July 3, 2008
Scott @ 11:02:
"Doesn't mean the teachings aren't true and good for everyone."
Hmmmm.....Exactly how would polygamy be GOOD for EVERYONE?
"Doesn't mean the teachings aren't true and good for everyone."
Hmmmm.....Exactly how would polygamy be GOOD for EVERYONE?
Rename Utah | 12:01 p.m. July 3, 2008
I advocate rename the state of Utah, to "Mormons-Rule". This would be
a much better name for the state. And, all the non-lds complainers (not all
non-lds are complainers) would finally be able to point to evidence that the
Mormons are in fact, ruling Utah.
Chris | 12:02 p.m. July 3, 2008
To: Scott
Believe it or not, there really are members who choose to leave the Church not because they are offended or wish to sin.
Many of us who've lived a lifetime in the Church have this "shelf" where we keep putting things that simply don't make sense. For some of us that shelf finally breaks. I think the internet simply adds to our knowledge of the problems we've sensed all along, perhaps making some of us exit more quickly than we would have without all the additional evidence.
Over and over members are told that leaving is all about sinning and being offended, but for most of us it's more a matter of truth and personal integrity.
Believe it or not, there really are members who choose to leave the Church not because they are offended or wish to sin.
Many of us who've lived a lifetime in the Church have this "shelf" where we keep putting things that simply don't make sense. For some of us that shelf finally breaks. I think the internet simply adds to our knowledge of the problems we've sensed all along, perhaps making some of us exit more quickly than we would have without all the additional evidence.
Over and over members are told that leaving is all about sinning and being offended, but for most of us it's more a matter of truth and personal integrity.
5 generation now- x Mormon | 12:08 p.m. July 3, 2008
I agree with many of you , I left the LDS church about 10 years ago, I do not
drink, smoke, vices, or mess around. I am still ME a virtuous happy person.
Those who choose virtue it doesn't matter what church they belong too. I
however, studied and found the LDS church not to be true. I am very happy not
putting up with the holier than thou group of snobs at church anymore. I love
people for who they are.
By the way, Polygamy is a total hoax forced upon Mormon women. Have a nice day everybody! And 4th!
By the way, Polygamy is a total hoax forced upon Mormon women. Have a nice day everybody! And 4th!
Scott Petersen | 12:31 p.m. July 3, 2008
Trust Me,
Although I said that I meant no offense and apologized in advance to anyone that might be, thank you so much for calling me delusional.
So, I was mistaken that you have lost your testimony by researching on the internet. But delusional? That was pretty harsh.
And how, exactly, am I trying to make myself feel better? I don't have to try to feel better, I have a testimony that was given to me by the Holy Ghost, not because because "I had been led to believe were true, right, and good." as you stated. I didn't need led to anything. I needed to get on my knees and ask.
Have you been given another testimony about a church which teaches that man, wife and children can be together for eternity? If you have, I would love to know what it is. Seriously, I would. I hope your Celestial Companion thinks exactly like you do, or she is going to be miserable for a lot of years. That is, if you are still sealed to her. My guess is you don't believe in the doctrine of Celestial Marriage any longer.
Have a great holiday.
Although I said that I meant no offense and apologized in advance to anyone that might be, thank you so much for calling me delusional.
So, I was mistaken that you have lost your testimony by researching on the internet. But delusional? That was pretty harsh.
And how, exactly, am I trying to make myself feel better? I don't have to try to feel better, I have a testimony that was given to me by the Holy Ghost, not because because "I had been led to believe were true, right, and good." as you stated. I didn't need led to anything. I needed to get on my knees and ask.
Have you been given another testimony about a church which teaches that man, wife and children can be together for eternity? If you have, I would love to know what it is. Seriously, I would. I hope your Celestial Companion thinks exactly like you do, or she is going to be miserable for a lot of years. That is, if you are still sealed to her. My guess is you don't believe in the doctrine of Celestial Marriage any longer.
Have a great holiday.
Scott Petersen | 12:47 p.m. July 3, 2008
To RDB. I apologize that I forgot this article was about polygamy. Please rest
assured that I don't believe polygamy was all sunshine and roses. I am
certain there were many men that used polygamy for their own selfish
gratifications. There had to be some that beat their wives or abused their
children in one way or another. As a man, I don't think I would want to be
asked, (or commanded) to practice polygamy. On the other hand, I do believe
that it was instituted by the direction of our Heavenly Father for the purpose
of taking care of the women and children who lost their husbands and fathers to
persecution and other factors. I do believe the rest of the teachings of the
church that deal with morality or what is good and not good for our bodies to be
good for everyone.
Have a nice holiday.
Have a nice holiday.
I like it... | 12:54 p.m. July 3, 2008
MORMONS RULE is a great name for the state. (Almost as good as the motto
"Life elevated") At least any non-LDS people couldn't say they
hadn't been warned.
But I think part of the real problem is that Mormons DON'T always rule anymore. There was a time when Utah was basically a theocracy, and people got used to that. They got used to everything being simple and one way. But now, all these outsiders and apostates have crept into the territory--shifting attitudes, and demanding to be heard. I think that explains a lot of the explosive outbursts we keep witnessing here. We're all getting used to a new way of doing things, and adjusting is a challenge.
HAPPY 4th! To 5 generation now- x Mormon, too. Stay happy! And to EVERYONE else as well.
But I think part of the real problem is that Mormons DON'T always rule anymore. There was a time when Utah was basically a theocracy, and people got used to that. They got used to everything being simple and one way. But now, all these outsiders and apostates have crept into the territory--shifting attitudes, and demanding to be heard. I think that explains a lot of the explosive outbursts we keep witnessing here. We're all getting used to a new way of doing things, and adjusting is a challenge.
HAPPY 4th! To 5 generation now- x Mormon, too. Stay happy! And to EVERYONE else as well.
Scott Petersen | 1:02 p.m. July 3, 2008
To Chris,
I certainly hope I didn't give the impression that I believe people leave the church so they can sin. I'm sure some leave for a lot of reasons, though. Being able to "sin" and not have the guilty feelings a member would feel for breaking the "commandments" could be one of them.
However, being offended by other members words and actions and not some history of things men did years ago would top my list because of my experience talking with people who are less active, inactive or have completely left the church. Without exception, they all have a problem with a bishop, stake president, relief society president, or just plain ole member like me saying something stupid or being judgmental. Not because they read that Joseph Smith had "x" number of wives before polygamy was introduced to the rest of the church or because he drank beer after the Word of Wisdom was instituted.
Thank you for being able to disagree without being rude. I truly hope you are happy with your life.
Happy 4th of July.
I certainly hope I didn't give the impression that I believe people leave the church so they can sin. I'm sure some leave for a lot of reasons, though. Being able to "sin" and not have the guilty feelings a member would feel for breaking the "commandments" could be one of them.
However, being offended by other members words and actions and not some history of things men did years ago would top my list because of my experience talking with people who are less active, inactive or have completely left the church. Without exception, they all have a problem with a bishop, stake president, relief society president, or just plain ole member like me saying something stupid or being judgmental. Not because they read that Joseph Smith had "x" number of wives before polygamy was introduced to the rest of the church or because he drank beer after the Word of Wisdom was instituted.
Thank you for being able to disagree without being rude. I truly hope you are happy with your life.
Happy 4th of July.
Morality | 1:24 p.m. July 3, 2008
Someone calling themselves "Madame" posted this elsewhere. I thought
it was good and relevant:
Under the law, two persons can enter into a number of different free-will agreements (contracts) for a variety of purposes. No individual is allowed, however, to enter into a contract or agreement that would place them into what might be considered slavery. The moral underpinnings against polygamy are akin to those underpinning slavery, not interracial marriage or same-sex marriage. Indeed, Congress and party platforms considered Mormon polygamy and Southern slavery the "twin relics of barbarism."
Congress enacted the Morrill Act (1862), making bigamy in a territory a crime punishable by a fine and five years in prison. The statute was upheld in Reynolds v. United States (1879), although the defendant argued unsuccessfully that the law violated the First Amendment guarantee of the free exercise of religion.
In the name of religion, polygamy (bigamy) had been used by some as a cover for prostitution, with trivial "marriages" quickly performed prior to a trick being turned for pay. Hence, the moral underpinnings against polygamy are also related to those against prostitution.
Under the law, two persons can enter into a number of different free-will agreements (contracts) for a variety of purposes. No individual is allowed, however, to enter into a contract or agreement that would place them into what might be considered slavery. The moral underpinnings against polygamy are akin to those underpinning slavery, not interracial marriage or same-sex marriage. Indeed, Congress and party platforms considered Mormon polygamy and Southern slavery the "twin relics of barbarism."
Congress enacted the Morrill Act (1862), making bigamy in a territory a crime punishable by a fine and five years in prison. The statute was upheld in Reynolds v. United States (1879), although the defendant argued unsuccessfully that the law violated the First Amendment guarantee of the free exercise of religion.
In the name of religion, polygamy (bigamy) had been used by some as a cover for prostitution, with trivial "marriages" quickly performed prior to a trick being turned for pay. Hence, the moral underpinnings against polygamy are also related to those against prostitution.
Diane | 1:25 p.m. July 3, 2008
The internet is great! A person can learn about all kinds of religions. Of
course, I choose none of them since leaving the LDS church. I enjoy being an
individual without all the pressure. I, too, live a respectable life. Mormon
people for some reason think when someone leaves the church that they are
automatically out being evil, and it Puzzles me, I for one am a much better
person for leaving my LDS life style. I am kind of like 5 generation X Mormon.
Just very happy and loving life.
Chris | 1:38 p.m. July 3, 2008
To Scott Petersen,
I'm sure we all do many things for a variety of reasons (sometimes the stated reason may not even be the "real" reason, just the "accepted" one). Breaking through stereotypes can be a challenge both in and out of the Church. We've all witnessed the caricatures of "Molly Mormon" and "Peter Priesthood", as well as those of "the bitter and offended apostate." I think most people are somewhere between the extremes.
Several people in my extended family have left the Church, all for various reasons. One common theme seems to be that of feeling betrayed by the people they loved and trusted most to tell them the truth. I don't think any of them would have left over a trivial difference with another member, nor are they exceptionally sinful. I simply think that with new information they had a change of heart. At least, that's how it was for me. I too, am glad we can disagree without being rude.
And yes, I am truly happy; and I sincerely hope that you are too. "God bless us everyone, no exceptions!"
I'm sure we all do many things for a variety of reasons (sometimes the stated reason may not even be the "real" reason, just the "accepted" one). Breaking through stereotypes can be a challenge both in and out of the Church. We've all witnessed the caricatures of "Molly Mormon" and "Peter Priesthood", as well as those of "the bitter and offended apostate." I think most people are somewhere between the extremes.
Several people in my extended family have left the Church, all for various reasons. One common theme seems to be that of feeling betrayed by the people they loved and trusted most to tell them the truth. I don't think any of them would have left over a trivial difference with another member, nor are they exceptionally sinful. I simply think that with new information they had a change of heart. At least, that's how it was for me. I too, am glad we can disagree without being rude.
And yes, I am truly happy; and I sincerely hope that you are too. "God bless us everyone, no exceptions!"
Oh yes (again) | 2:14 p.m. July 3, 2008
Dear Trust Me,
I think you misunderstood again. I never said there wasn't truth on the internet, and I do recognize the internet as a great tool. I was simply saying that there is an endless pool of false accusations and lies on the internet as well. I've read pamphlets and essays written by other faiths on the LDS Church and surprise, surprise, most of it is false. I know, cause I've been in enough meetings to know what is taught and said. Read what you like, believe what you will, but not all of it is true.
Sincerely,
Oh yes
I think you misunderstood again. I never said there wasn't truth on the internet, and I do recognize the internet as a great tool. I was simply saying that there is an endless pool of false accusations and lies on the internet as well. I've read pamphlets and essays written by other faiths on the LDS Church and surprise, surprise, most of it is false. I know, cause I've been in enough meetings to know what is taught and said. Read what you like, believe what you will, but not all of it is true.
Sincerely,
Oh yes
Happens in Tucson | 2:32 p.m. July 3, 2008
Utahns would be surprised of the amount of anti-Mormon activity that goes on
outside of Utah. This book is just another example of endless streams of lies
published against the LDS church.
My family lives in Oro Valley, AZ and many of the Christian churches in the area have anti-Mormon classes taught by their clergy. My children have been verbally attacked about their LDS beliefs by classmates (who have been exposed to this vile rhetoric via Sunday school classes and sermons). If the same type of attack was given concerning someone's race those same kids would be condemned and kicked out of school. LDS bashing continues to be hip among many Christian pastors and their flocks.
My family lives in Oro Valley, AZ and many of the Christian churches in the area have anti-Mormon classes taught by their clergy. My children have been verbally attacked about their LDS beliefs by classmates (who have been exposed to this vile rhetoric via Sunday school classes and sermons). If the same type of attack was given concerning someone's race those same kids would be condemned and kicked out of school. LDS bashing continues to be hip among many Christian pastors and their flocks.
Anonymous | 2:59 p.m. July 3, 2008
To Happens in Tucson,
Did you actually READ the article? This book was published over a century ago. It is NOT an example of the endless stream of lies published against the Church in Arizona.
Wake up, sacrament meeting is over and you missed the point.
Did you actually READ the article? This book was published over a century ago. It is NOT an example of the endless stream of lies published against the Church in Arizona.
Wake up, sacrament meeting is over and you missed the point.
Sad for Some | 3:13 p.m. July 3, 2008
Some people leave The Church but they can't leave it alone. Why are they so
obsessed with bashing The Church? Why does that feel good to them? I love The
Church and their rhetoric won't change that. The gospel of Jesus Christ
will go forth boldly, nobly and no unhallowed hand will stop it.
Trust Me | 3:55 p.m. July 3, 2008
To Sad for Some,
Some of us just love people like you who are so misled, and we want you to experience the happiness that we now enjoy.
Please accept our humble, loving offering of truth and freedom from the Pharisee-like program the the LDS Church is!
But don't begrudge us sharing the truths we have discovered. And please don't "bash" us by name-calling.
Just so you know, I agree with you fully: The Gospel of Jesus Christ will go forth boldly, nobly, and no unhallowed hand will stop it. That is why not even the unhallowed hands of the LDS Church leaders can stop it. The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God are inside you! Not in an organization with a false priesthood and hierarchy. Jesus said that. Open your heart and your mind and you will see the truth.
God bless you...
Some of us just love people like you who are so misled, and we want you to experience the happiness that we now enjoy.
Please accept our humble, loving offering of truth and freedom from the Pharisee-like program the the LDS Church is!
But don't begrudge us sharing the truths we have discovered. And please don't "bash" us by name-calling.
Just so you know, I agree with you fully: The Gospel of Jesus Christ will go forth boldly, nobly, and no unhallowed hand will stop it. That is why not even the unhallowed hands of the LDS Church leaders can stop it. The Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God are inside you! Not in an organization with a false priesthood and hierarchy. Jesus said that. Open your heart and your mind and you will see the truth.
God bless you...
To Sad for Some @3:13 | 4:06 p.m. July 3, 2008
Many Mormons seem to live in a world of clich�s.
You've been told the same statements over and over and over again so many
times that I know you believe they are true: Anyone who leaves the Church must
have been offended or wants to sin. They can leave the Church but they
can't leave it alone. No unhallowed hand will stop it. These are just a
few examples.
I'm not obsessed with bashing the Church, I just want members to look at themselves and to be open to other options. I want them to share their own opinions and not some memorized phrase that I've heard a hundred times before from every other Mormon that I've ever met. I want to talk to a human being not a robot. I have friends and family who are still in the Church, still repeating the same old clich�s, still bearing the same old testimony. Once I believe that they are truly thinking for themselves and not merely spouting memorized phrases then I will finally feel free to leave them alone.
I'm not obsessed with bashing the Church, I just want members to look at themselves and to be open to other options. I want them to share their own opinions and not some memorized phrase that I've heard a hundred times before from every other Mormon that I've ever met. I want to talk to a human being not a robot. I have friends and family who are still in the Church, still repeating the same old clich�s, still bearing the same old testimony. Once I believe that they are truly thinking for themselves and not merely spouting memorized phrases then I will finally feel free to leave them alone.
Lavina | 4:12 p.m. July 3, 2008
Scott Peterson,
Are you the same Scott Peterson who was involved in the persecution and excommunication of the famous/infamous "September Six" back in the mid-1990's, or what that someone else?
Are you the same Scott Peterson who was involved in the persecution and excommunication of the famous/infamous "September Six" back in the mid-1990's, or what that someone else?
Sally Mae | 4:16 p.m. July 3, 2008
Sad for Some,
Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you and your Church send out 50,000 missionaries to tell everyone else that their faith is apostate and false! The Mormon Church drew first blood by their alleged "restoration" being based on an alleged "apostasy" of all other religions. So we could use the same cliche back at you: Why do Mormons leave the Christian tradition, but they can't leave it alone? You attack every other Christian (and non-Christian) religion and then whine when you get attacked back! Talk about being a hypocrite.
Perhaps you should be asking yourself why you and your Church send out 50,000 missionaries to tell everyone else that their faith is apostate and false! The Mormon Church drew first blood by their alleged "restoration" being based on an alleged "apostasy" of all other religions. So we could use the same cliche back at you: Why do Mormons leave the Christian tradition, but they can't leave it alone? You attack every other Christian (and non-Christian) religion and then whine when you get attacked back! Talk about being a hypocrite.
Karen | 5:10 p.m. July 3, 2008
Not sad for me, I am happy not being a member of LDS any longer, and Polygamy is
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
RE:Trust me. | 5:43 p.m. July 3, 2008
IT's very sad for you.
You read some anti-mormon propaganda and call it studying.
And were easily swayed.
Buying it hook, line, and sinker. At times it can seem very convincing.
However, DO some real honest studying.
Every question or issue the some non-mormon or anti-mormon has brought up in this story and others, I have done my research and found very satisfactory answers to them.
I know you want to believe that the leaders the Lord chooses are perfect, but they are anything but.
Look no further than apostles Jesus himself picked. (Peter and Judas among others good examples of how imperfect they were.)
I see your name and it reminds of the snake in the garden of eden.
We all know what happened when Eve trusted the snake.
The answers out there to all the things the anti-mormons bring up. From being complete falsehoods, to simply not understanding the what the 1800's were like, to the fact all people are very imperfect and need a lot of perfecting (just like us).
Trust the Lord.
You read some anti-mormon propaganda and call it studying.
And were easily swayed.
Buying it hook, line, and sinker. At times it can seem very convincing.
However, DO some real honest studying.
Every question or issue the some non-mormon or anti-mormon has brought up in this story and others, I have done my research and found very satisfactory answers to them.
I know you want to believe that the leaders the Lord chooses are perfect, but they are anything but.
Look no further than apostles Jesus himself picked. (Peter and Judas among others good examples of how imperfect they were.)
I see your name and it reminds of the snake in the garden of eden.
We all know what happened when Eve trusted the snake.
The answers out there to all the things the anti-mormons bring up. From being complete falsehoods, to simply not understanding the what the 1800's were like, to the fact all people are very imperfect and need a lot of perfecting (just like us).
Trust the Lord.
To other members, one question? | 5:59 p.m. July 3, 2008
Mormons believe that polygamy is an eternal principle, at least, that's
what I've always been taught. What would you suggest that a woman should
do if she realizes that she doesn't WANT to be one of a hundred wives, or
have a million kids, or create "worlds without end" for all eternity.
Would you then say it is simply time for her to leave the Church?
Sammy | 6:16 p.m. July 3, 2008
Re: To other members,one question?
You must belong to the FLDS church. I have been a member all my life and I have never heard that polygamy was an eternal principle. Wishful thinking on your part, BUD! Some of you men in the church just do a lot of day dreaming about having sex with more than one woman for all eternity... Quite sick! If it's an eternal principle than I would like to have my membership dropped. There is no way I'd ever practice sexual immorality for all eternity..Good grief!
You must belong to the FLDS church. I have been a member all my life and I have never heard that polygamy was an eternal principle. Wishful thinking on your part, BUD! Some of you men in the church just do a lot of day dreaming about having sex with more than one woman for all eternity... Quite sick! If it's an eternal principle than I would like to have my membership dropped. There is no way I'd ever practice sexual immorality for all eternity..Good grief!
Anonymous | 2:59 p.m. | 6:33 p.m. July 3, 2008
The article states that they were not sure when the book was written but the it
was "anti-mormon" in nature and made up. Remember, Mark Hoffman was a
genius who forged his way to prison while trying to dupe the LDS church.
The point is that it has always been exceptable in this country to be anti mormon. This so-called book is just another example. Whether it was written 10 years ago or 150.
Trying to figure out why you think Tucson missed the point.
The point is that it has always been exceptable in this country to be anti mormon. This so-called book is just another example. Whether it was written 10 years ago or 150.
Trying to figure out why you think Tucson missed the point.
To Sammy | 6:55 p.m. July 3, 2008
It was Brigham Young who said, "The only men who become Gods, even the
sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy" (J. of D. Vol. XI, p. 269)
Sounds like an eternal principle to me.
Scott Petersen | 6:54 p.m. July 3, 2008
To Lavina @ 4:12pm. I don't know if I should be ashamed to admit this, but
I had never heard of the September Six until reading your post. So, no, I am
not the same Scott Peterson that was involved with that.
Are you the same Lavina Anderson that was excommunicated and, according to the article I found about the September Six, still attends church services?
Have a nice weekend.
Are you the same Lavina Anderson that was excommunicated and, according to the article I found about the September Six, still attends church services?
Have a nice weekend.
Re:To other members | 6:55 p.m. July 3, 2008
The Lord will not give a man or woman anything they do not desire. There is
nothing wrong with that and people should not feel guilty because they have
doubts about some doctrines that they do not fully understand or comprehend.
Some people leave the Church because they think they must be totally perfect and
keep all the commandments and that is just impossible for all of us to do.
Salvation is an individual effort not a group project. Everyone proceeds at his
or her own pace
Steve | 7:00 p.m. July 3, 2008
To Sammy:
"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction."
Prophet Joseph Smith
Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259
"The same God that has thus far dictated me and directed me and strengthened me in this work, gave me this revelation and commandment on celestial and plural marriage, and the same God commanded me to obey it. He said to me that unless I accepted it, and introduced it, and practiced it, I, together with my people would be damned and cut off from this time henceforth. We have got to observe it. It is an eternal principle and was given by way of commandment and not by way of instruction."
Prophet Joseph Smith
Contributor, Vol. 5, p. 259
To Sammy | 7:04 p.m. July 3, 2008
In April 2006, Church Apostle Russell M. Nelson married for a second time. His
first wife had passed away the previous year. Both his first and second marriage
were �solemnized� in an LDS Temple
ceremony which, according the LDS beliefs, means that he will spend eternity
married to both women. Many other prominent Church leaders have married more
than one woman "for eternity." Perhaps it's time to have your
membership dropped?
Chris | 7:12 p.m. July 3, 2008
To Sammy,
You must belong to the "younger" generation. Teaching that polygamy was an "eternal principle" was quite common when I was still a member. And yes, some men would day dream about who they would take for their plural wives, especially if the meeting was a little boring.
You must belong to the "younger" generation. Teaching that polygamy was an "eternal principle" was quite common when I was still a member. And yes, some men would day dream about who they would take for their plural wives, especially if the meeting was a little boring.
Don't worry, Be Happy | 7:50 p.m. July 3, 2008
For all of you that do not want to live polygamy, you won't have to here or
there. Study the facts.
Polygamy (Plural Marriage)
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. At certain times and for His specific purposes, God, through His prophets, has directed the practice of plural marriage (sometimes called polygamy), which means one man having more than one living wife at the same time. In obedience to direction from God, Latter-day Saints followed this practice for about 50 years during the 1800s but officially ceased the practice of such marriages after the Manifesto was issued by President Woodruff in 1890. Since that time, plural marriage has not been approved by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any member adopting this practice is subject to losing his or her membership in the Church. (LDS.org)
So if you are a member or not you will not live it in this life, with the blessings of The Church.
Polygamy (Plural Marriage)
The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. At certain times and for His specific purposes, God, through His prophets, has directed the practice of plural marriage (sometimes called polygamy), which means one man having more than one living wife at the same time. In obedience to direction from God, Latter-day Saints followed this practice for about 50 years during the 1800s but officially ceased the practice of such marriages after the Manifesto was issued by President Woodruff in 1890. Since that time, plural marriage has not been approved by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any member adopting this practice is subject to losing his or her membership in the Church. (LDS.org)
So if you are a member or not you will not live it in this life, with the blessings of The Church.
I agree | 7:51 p.m. July 3, 2008
The newer members of the church or those that were less involved may have not
heard about the "eternal principle of polygamy", but it is all over in
the past and in the temple rules. If you don't believe it study up at the
library and ask older members of the church if a man can be "sealed"
to more than one wife. Look for specific teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham
Young and what they believed about God and eternal relationships. Over the
years the "official" teachings have changed drastically.
same old same old | 8:03 p.m. July 3, 2008
All the Anti-Mormons point out the lies that they think are part of the Church
but I have never seen any examples only general rhetoric. It is really boring.
They have nothing new to bring to the table because it is all 19th century
recycled propaganda dressed up as something new and informative, which they
claim will damage the Church. They just give one side but there is another side
out there if they take time to do the research. No, this is not found in your
gospel manuals either.
TO same old same old | 8:43 p.m. July 3, 2008
I don't see any "lies" being put out, just quotes from past
Church leaders. You say this is "all 19th century recycled propaganda
dressed up as something new and informative, which they claim will damage the
Church" but I don't see anyone claiming that. If there is
"another side" would you please share it with us. I would love to
hear your side, too. Thanks.
To Sammy | 9:19 p.m. July 3, 2008
No, I don't belong to the FLDS church. I'm actually a wavering Mormon.
I have been a member most of my life and I have heard that polygamy is an
eternal principle. I don't have any wishful thinking, in fact, I'm
wishing it wasn't part of our past, or of our future, in heaven or on
earth. Oh, and I'm not a BUD!
But I am trying to decide if it's worth all the effort to be an active Mormon when I'm not sure the eternal reward is even worth working toward. I just don't want to waste my life on something I don't really even want.
But I am trying to decide if it's worth all the effort to be an active Mormon when I'm not sure the eternal reward is even worth working toward. I just don't want to waste my life on something I don't really even want.
To Jo: | 9:51 p.m. July 3, 2008
You said after 35 yrs in the Church, you have concluded that Joseph Smith
wasn't a Prophet at all. Can you tell me for the 35 years prior, what did
you believe that kept you a member for so long?
So, Theron..... | 9:57 p.m. July 3, 2008
You said VERY CLEARLY that it was within the teachings and practice of LDS
doctrine that you learned to, quote, "listen to the voice of the
Spirit". That would be a good thing, wouldn't it?
And yet you willingly left the LDS faith behind?
Does this make sense to anyone???
Anyway, just where exactly do you propose that those who are "wise" and leave the LDS church, should go to worship God?
I would really love to see your answer.
My guess is you'll say "I haven't found any one particular church that I feel I can say belongs to God" or something like "It doesn't matter. All that matters is you feel close to God".
Care to reply?
And yet you willingly left the LDS faith behind?
Does this make sense to anyone???
Anyway, just where exactly do you propose that those who are "wise" and leave the LDS church, should go to worship God?
I would really love to see your answer.
My guess is you'll say "I haven't found any one particular church that I feel I can say belongs to God" or something like "It doesn't matter. All that matters is you feel close to God".
Care to reply?
Hey "Former Member" | 10:13 p.m. July 3, 2008
I'll refute your claim and I'll even tell you who I am when I'm
done.
Yes, I also think it's often contrived to see little kids stand up in fast and testimony meeting and say "I know the Church is true". In my opinion, probably 90% don't have much of a clue about what they're saying. However.....
I'm 42 years old and CAN say "I KNOW the Church is true" because I do know. Yes, I agree with you that gaining a testimony of, or confidence in, the teachings of the LDS church, or any true or real thing, is a very personal journey, one easy to make mistakes in. However, that reality does not mean that truth can never be known or correctly discerned.
I know God lives and I know that I know it, and what a wonderful thing that is to me! How do I know this? How am I so sure? Because God has told me so. Was it really God? Yes.
Like salt, or sweetness or happiness or pain; you can't "really" describe it, now can you? Yet ALL of us know it when we experience it.
The Church IS true.
Dan Maloy
Enid, OK
Yes, I also think it's often contrived to see little kids stand up in fast and testimony meeting and say "I know the Church is true". In my opinion, probably 90% don't have much of a clue about what they're saying. However.....
I'm 42 years old and CAN say "I KNOW the Church is true" because I do know. Yes, I agree with you that gaining a testimony of, or confidence in, the teachings of the LDS church, or any true or real thing, is a very personal journey, one easy to make mistakes in. However, that reality does not mean that truth can never be known or correctly discerned.
I know God lives and I know that I know it, and what a wonderful thing that is to me! How do I know this? How am I so sure? Because God has told me so. Was it really God? Yes.
Like salt, or sweetness or happiness or pain; you can't "really" describe it, now can you? Yet ALL of us know it when we experience it.
The Church IS true.
Dan Maloy
Enid, OK
My gut feeling | 10:21 p.m. July 3, 2008
I'm just wonder how many Mark Hoffmans there have been in the LDS church? I
bet ya anything there are more than one since the beginning of the church.
So some guys eternal principle for polygamy is pretty dumb, and probably a forgery. However, the Bible has been forged so darn many times that I'm wondering how much of it is even believable? I betcha anything there are more forgeries than one could ever dream of.
Polygamy? definitely a forgery.
So some guys eternal principle for polygamy is pretty dumb, and probably a forgery. However, the Bible has been forged so darn many times that I'm wondering how much of it is even believable? I betcha anything there are more forgeries than one could ever dream of.
Polygamy? definitely a forgery.
To trust me: (lol) | 10:21 p.m. July 3, 2008
Watch for the answers: Do you honestly believe everything taught in Sunday
School? YES Do you honestly think the whole truth and nothing but the truth is
published in your highly edited Church manuals? YES Do you have any idea how
many ridiculous things there are said in talks from the Church pulpits and in
lessons and classes? NO, IT WOULD ONLY BE RIDICULOUS IF THEY WERE STATING
FALSEHOODS, WHICH THEY ARE NOT
Don't be foolish. I THINK IT'S CLEAR HERE WHO THE FOOL IS There is FAR MORE TRUTH on the Internet than you can possibly get in twenty years of attending Church meetings, watching General Conference, earning a degree at BYU, serving an honorable, full-time LDS mission, and being married in the LDS Temple for 18 years. HOW INCREDIBLY GULLIBLE YOU ARE Trust me, I know! I WILL TRUST YOU WHEN PIGS FLY...ACTUALLY, MAYBE NOT EVEN THEN.
Don't be foolish. I THINK IT'S CLEAR HERE WHO THE FOOL IS There is FAR MORE TRUTH on the Internet than you can possibly get in twenty years of attending Church meetings, watching General Conference, earning a degree at BYU, serving an honorable, full-time LDS mission, and being married in the LDS Temple for 18 years. HOW INCREDIBLY GULLIBLE YOU ARE Trust me, I know! I WILL TRUST YOU WHEN PIGS FLY...ACTUALLY, MAYBE NOT EVEN THEN.
To Trust Me | 10:27 p.m. July 3, 2008
You said: "I agree with you fully: The Gospel of Jesus Christ will go
forth boldly, nobly, and no unhallowed hand will stop it." Did you know you
were quoting Joseph Smith?
He said:�Our missionaries are going forth to different nations � the Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny many defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.� (History of the Church, 4:540.)
He said:�Our missionaries are going forth to different nations � the Standard of Truth has been erected; no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing; persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny many defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent, till it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say the work is done.� (History of the Church, 4:540.)
More Salt | 10:29 p.m. July 3, 2008
Some people may say "But I CAN tell you what salt tastes like".
Really?
They say, "Well, it's not sweet. It's not bitter".
Yes, that is true, but you've only told me what it isn't, NOT what it IS.
The same could be said for our feeble attempts to describe what pain or happiness is to us. We can accurately describe what CAUSES us pain or happiness, but what does the pain or happiness itself feel like? "Well, my pain aches". OK, but what does the aching feel like. Uh....
Describing things that only YOU can feel might be difficult to do with words, but does that mean that you don't feel or experience these things? They're fake? Or does it just mean that we can't describe it?
Sharing your testimony or faith about sacred things is best done by not telling someone how you feel about the "thing" right now, but how you felt about it when you learned it's truth THEN. Why? Because truth CANNOT be changed in the slightest. Not even by God. Now THAT is power.
I recommend you read a talk called "Candle of the Lord" by Boyd K. Packer.
Good luck finding your flame.
Really?
They say, "Well, it's not sweet. It's not bitter".
Yes, that is true, but you've only told me what it isn't, NOT what it IS.
The same could be said for our feeble attempts to describe what pain or happiness is to us. We can accurately describe what CAUSES us pain or happiness, but what does the pain or happiness itself feel like? "Well, my pain aches". OK, but what does the aching feel like. Uh....
Describing things that only YOU can feel might be difficult to do with words, but does that mean that you don't feel or experience these things? They're fake? Or does it just mean that we can't describe it?
Sharing your testimony or faith about sacred things is best done by not telling someone how you feel about the "thing" right now, but how you felt about it when you learned it's truth THEN. Why? Because truth CANNOT be changed in the slightest. Not even by God. Now THAT is power.
I recommend you read a talk called "Candle of the Lord" by Boyd K. Packer.
Good luck finding your flame.
Theron | 10:32 p.m. July 3, 2008
To 9:57 p.m.
To what purpose shall I reply? Do you have ears to hear? Do you have eyes to see? Or do you walk in the blindness of your own heart?
I know what I know. I learned to listen to the voice of my Master when I was young. His voice has told me the LDS Church is a parched desert where there is no fountain of living waters.
Like all brainwashed LDS, you erroneously equate the Spirit and the Church. That is why it seems strange to you that the Spirit would lead a person away from the Church.
I will take a chance and cast a pearl. How you respond will determine whether you are swine or chosen:
"...the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth� (John 4:23-24).
�The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you� (Luke 17:20-21).
To what purpose shall I reply? Do you have ears to hear? Do you have eyes to see? Or do you walk in the blindness of your own heart?
I know what I know. I learned to listen to the voice of my Master when I was young. His voice has told me the LDS Church is a parched desert where there is no fountain of living waters.
Like all brainwashed LDS, you erroneously equate the Spirit and the Church. That is why it seems strange to you that the Spirit would lead a person away from the Church.
I will take a chance and cast a pearl. How you respond will determine whether you are swine or chosen:
"...the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth� (John 4:23-24).
�The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you� (Luke 17:20-21).
Those Who Hate Us May Cry | 10:34 p.m. July 3, 2008
or, perhaps even make us cry from time to time, but I love the Prophet Joseph
Smith!
Trust Me | 10:37 p.m. July 3, 2008
To Trust Me | 10:27 p.m.
Of course I know I was quoting Joseph Smith. Surprised that someone actually knows something and you aren't the omniscient one on the earth? Sorry to disappoint you.
There is a HUGE difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and The Church. Look into it.
Of course I know I was quoting Joseph Smith. Surprised that someone actually knows something and you aren't the omniscient one on the earth? Sorry to disappoint you.
There is a HUGE difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and The Church. Look into it.
To: Trust Me | 10:44 p.m. July 3, 2008
I belong to The Church. And I love The Gospel of Jesus Christ and all it stands
for. I looked into it.
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