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LDS Church addresses FLDS confusion
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John Lambert | 9:11 p.m. June 28, 2008
To FLDS vs. LDS you are wrong about the Word of Wisdom. The FLDS do not
outright ban the use of alchohol, tobacco, coffee or tea. Any LDS person who
saw how the FLDS approach the Word of Widwom could tell you two things.
1. The FLDS would not pass as obeying the Word of Wisdom by LDS Standards.
2. Many FLDS would be excluded from the temple on their obeying the word of wisdom alone.
Also your view that LDS and FLDS views on the purposes of sex and marriage are the same is ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Musser taught that the only purpose of sex was to produce children. Spencer W. Kimball taught that sex had a bonding purpose beyond only producing children.
I have never, ever heard anyone counsel to have a two year supply of food in the church. A years supply I have heard counseled. A seven years supply I have heard mentioned at least as something counseled, but two years supply never.
Also, the FLDS may believe in temple ordinances, but they do not have a functioning temple, and have not had one for most of their existence.
1. The FLDS would not pass as obeying the Word of Wisdom by LDS Standards.
2. Many FLDS would be excluded from the temple on their obeying the word of wisdom alone.
Also your view that LDS and FLDS views on the purposes of sex and marriage are the same is ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Musser taught that the only purpose of sex was to produce children. Spencer W. Kimball taught that sex had a bonding purpose beyond only producing children.
I have never, ever heard anyone counsel to have a two year supply of food in the church. A years supply I have heard counseled. A seven years supply I have heard mentioned at least as something counseled, but two years supply never.
Also, the FLDS may believe in temple ordinances, but they do not have a functioning temple, and have not had one for most of their existence.
John Lambert | 9:15 p.m. June 28, 2008
My last comment needs some explanation. The FLDS have existed since 1992 or
so. Their temple was completed in about 2005 and then desecrated in 2008.
The FLDS also at least broke off from the AUB and believed that there was a "council of friends" with more power than the Quorum of the Twelve.
I wonder if some of you people who gripe about the church changing think the leaders of the church has strayed from the gospel by no longer counseling all members to gather to the Rocky Mountains? I do know that Musser denounced the church for changing this.
Of course in some outward ways the FLDS resemble the early LDS outwardly more. They essentially reject that a living prophet can recieve revelations from God. They assume that the church should always be run exactly the same. Escept that Joseph Smith would not see any connection between his system of bishops and high councils and the FLDS system of Jeffs asking men to "repent from afar".
Whitney and others of her ilk may try to argue that the high council is a system that gives you no voice, but that is because they know not the truth.
The FLDS also at least broke off from the AUB and believed that there was a "council of friends" with more power than the Quorum of the Twelve.
I wonder if some of you people who gripe about the church changing think the leaders of the church has strayed from the gospel by no longer counseling all members to gather to the Rocky Mountains? I do know that Musser denounced the church for changing this.
Of course in some outward ways the FLDS resemble the early LDS outwardly more. They essentially reject that a living prophet can recieve revelations from God. They assume that the church should always be run exactly the same. Escept that Joseph Smith would not see any connection between his system of bishops and high councils and the FLDS system of Jeffs asking men to "repent from afar".
Whitney and others of her ilk may try to argue that the high council is a system that gives you no voice, but that is because they know not the truth.
Comments continue below
John Lambert | 9:21 p.m. June 28, 2008
The truth is that high councils in their deliberations have equal numbers of
people assigned to speak for both sides.
Why did it take the church years to extradite all the polygamists? It is because the church court system is not an inquisition. They did not have thumb screws to force people to remember who performed their marriage, who they married and so on.
The FLDS may claim that they believe in the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price. However they also denounce the LDS Church for "having changed the wording of the Book of Mormon". Why, because in one phrase the word "white" was replaced by "pure" because that was what was meant there? Even Joseph Smith had admitted it might be good to change the phrase. "Black and White" that Nephi refers to has nothing to do with African Americans and European Americas. It is a figurative use. The Lord accepts both the pure and the defiled. No matter how deep in sin someone is, they can reprent and live and the Lord, even Jesus Christ, will forgive.
The FLDS reject Doctrine and Covenant 138 and both official declarations. They have a different D&C.
Why did it take the church years to extradite all the polygamists? It is because the church court system is not an inquisition. They did not have thumb screws to force people to remember who performed their marriage, who they married and so on.
The FLDS may claim that they believe in the Book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price. However they also denounce the LDS Church for "having changed the wording of the Book of Mormon". Why, because in one phrase the word "white" was replaced by "pure" because that was what was meant there? Even Joseph Smith had admitted it might be good to change the phrase. "Black and White" that Nephi refers to has nothing to do with African Americans and European Americas. It is a figurative use. The Lord accepts both the pure and the defiled. No matter how deep in sin someone is, they can reprent and live and the Lord, even Jesus Christ, will forgive.
The FLDS reject Doctrine and Covenant 138 and both official declarations. They have a different D&C.
John Lambert | 9:33 p.m. June 28, 2008
To Elizaveta,
I really liked your comments.
One quuestion, are you still in Russia? Is it Russians you are saying go around chanting "kill all Mormons".
I have not seen any Americans of late say quite that, although that may be because death threats are excluded from this board. I have seen people defend the killing and raping of people in Missouri in 1838 and the denial of people the right to vote solely because of thier belief.
There is a lot of anti-Mormon feeling in Bulgaria. One time a member fell out of a window and the press tried to claim it was a suicide attempt motivated by his belief. There was no proof of suicide. I guess I would not say that was purely based on hating Mormons, it was mainly based on the fact that reports like getting fun news, and laiming someone did a religious suicide is way more likely to get peoples attention than saying someone fell out of a tall apartment building.
The Word of God will move forward. Keep the faith.
I really liked your comments.
One quuestion, are you still in Russia? Is it Russians you are saying go around chanting "kill all Mormons".
I have not seen any Americans of late say quite that, although that may be because death threats are excluded from this board. I have seen people defend the killing and raping of people in Missouri in 1838 and the denial of people the right to vote solely because of thier belief.
There is a lot of anti-Mormon feeling in Bulgaria. One time a member fell out of a window and the press tried to claim it was a suicide attempt motivated by his belief. There was no proof of suicide. I guess I would not say that was purely based on hating Mormons, it was mainly based on the fact that reports like getting fun news, and laiming someone did a religious suicide is way more likely to get peoples attention than saying someone fell out of a tall apartment building.
The Word of God will move forward. Keep the faith.
John Lambert | 9:41 p.m. June 28, 2008
To Michael,
We do practice the "New and Everlasting Covenant". It is eternal marriage in this context, although in reality the term applies to all of the gospel.
The only reason we do not practice Plural Marriage today is because the Lord has revealed to his prophet that such actions are forbidden. I wish Joseph F. Smith had written out the second manifesto where this was clearly written out. However, if you live in one of the many countries in the world where plural marriage is totally legal you will be excommunicated for practicing it. I repreat, even if you enter into a legal civil marriage with a second wife in a country, say Ivoty Coast, where 30 some year old men marrying 15 year old girls as their second wife is somewhat common, the church will excommunicate you for doing this. You will not have broken any of the laws of that land, but you will have broken the law of God and will be punished for having done so.
The Church has no tolerance for polygamy in any place.
We do practice the "New and Everlasting Covenant". It is eternal marriage in this context, although in reality the term applies to all of the gospel.
The only reason we do not practice Plural Marriage today is because the Lord has revealed to his prophet that such actions are forbidden. I wish Joseph F. Smith had written out the second manifesto where this was clearly written out. However, if you live in one of the many countries in the world where plural marriage is totally legal you will be excommunicated for practicing it. I repreat, even if you enter into a legal civil marriage with a second wife in a country, say Ivoty Coast, where 30 some year old men marrying 15 year old girls as their second wife is somewhat common, the church will excommunicate you for doing this. You will not have broken any of the laws of that land, but you will have broken the law of God and will be punished for having done so.
The Church has no tolerance for polygamy in any place.
John Lambert | 9:47 p.m. June 28, 2008
To 0000000,
The so called 1886 revelation to John Taylor is not canonized. It is also not 100% authenticated. Beyond this, I have read it, and will say that nothing Wilford Woodruff did or anyone since has in anyway contradicted it.
You have assumed that plural marraige was John Taylor's number one concern because that was the stick people were using to hit the church with. However the LDS Church has never held plural marriage as our number one concern.
The first principals and ordinances of the gospel are faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
The so called 1886 revelation to John Taylor is not canonized. It is also not 100% authenticated. Beyond this, I have read it, and will say that nothing Wilford Woodruff did or anyone since has in anyway contradicted it.
You have assumed that plural marraige was John Taylor's number one concern because that was the stick people were using to hit the church with. However the LDS Church has never held plural marriage as our number one concern.
The first principals and ordinances of the gospel are faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, Repentance, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Ghost.
Evil men | 9:53 p.m. June 28, 2008
All religions think their religion is the only true religion. I say none of them
are true. They are all man made and made up by some clever mischievous people.
People are very conniving and skillful and try to conquer others if given half
the chance to do so... Let someone convince people you are talking to God and
you have it made, and then the money will soon flow in to support all your
corruptions.
Kevin B. | 11:15 p.m. June 28, 2008
Hey polygamy preachers, I agree with others-- go find a life instead of posting
your polygamy BS. Sickos!
oo0O0oo | 12:04 p.m. June 29, 2008
John Lambert | 8:42 p.m. June 28, 2008 said:
"I know that Thomas S. Monson is the prophet of God. He holds the same priesthood that Joseph Smith held. It has been passed down in an unbroken chain. Neither Warren Jeffs, nor any other polygamous group leader holds any priesthood."
Didn't Joseph Smith say that if there is no change in ordinance, there is no change in priesthood?
When you meld your statement in with the teachings of Joseph Smith, then you would only be right if none of the ordinances changed. But the LDS church did change the ordinances. They changed the ordinances and rejected the new and everlasting covenant. You are living in darkness at noonday. Your eyes are open, yet you fail to see.
Prepare yourself for the prophecy to be fulfilled "A light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of the gospel." D&C 45:28 (March 7, 1831)
I pray that you will know the fulness of the gospel when you see it.
"I know that Thomas S. Monson is the prophet of God. He holds the same priesthood that Joseph Smith held. It has been passed down in an unbroken chain. Neither Warren Jeffs, nor any other polygamous group leader holds any priesthood."
Didn't Joseph Smith say that if there is no change in ordinance, there is no change in priesthood?
When you meld your statement in with the teachings of Joseph Smith, then you would only be right if none of the ordinances changed. But the LDS church did change the ordinances. They changed the ordinances and rejected the new and everlasting covenant. You are living in darkness at noonday. Your eyes are open, yet you fail to see.
Prepare yourself for the prophecy to be fulfilled "A light shall break forth among them that sit in darkness, and it shall be the fulness of the gospel." D&C 45:28 (March 7, 1831)
I pray that you will know the fulness of the gospel when you see it.
CPW | 12:09 p.m. June 29, 2008
The confusion between LDS and FLDS can be dispelled by the LDS belief in their
13 ARTICLES OF FAITH (12)"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents,
rulers, and magistrates in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." As
members of LDS church we need to defend our belief. Polygamy is against the law
and has not been practiced by our church since the law was in force in the
1800s.
FLDS vs. LDS | 12:46 p.m. June 29, 2008
John Lambert:
Be careful when you dig so deep into the history and doctrine of the LDS church. It's a dangerous path. That type of behavior has caused many good LDS people to move over to the polygamy side of things. If you don't believe me, just look at the french missionaries that left the LDS church, while on their missions, to join the Church of the Firstborn in Mexico.
CPW:
The FLDS are fundamentalist mormons, so they follow the teachings of the early LDS leaders also. That includes the 13 articles of faith, or maybe even the 20 articles of faith. Just remember, it is a fundamental belief of all religions that God's law is superior to man's law. Some religions actually put their fate in God's hands by having faith and going against the laws of man.
It looks like God has indeed helped the FLDS out in respects to polygamy. Although their faith has been tested, and they have had to endure religious persecution multiple times since they left the LDS church, God has found a way to allow them to live polygamy in spite of it being against man's law.
Be careful when you dig so deep into the history and doctrine of the LDS church. It's a dangerous path. That type of behavior has caused many good LDS people to move over to the polygamy side of things. If you don't believe me, just look at the french missionaries that left the LDS church, while on their missions, to join the Church of the Firstborn in Mexico.
CPW:
The FLDS are fundamentalist mormons, so they follow the teachings of the early LDS leaders also. That includes the 13 articles of faith, or maybe even the 20 articles of faith. Just remember, it is a fundamental belief of all religions that God's law is superior to man's law. Some religions actually put their fate in God's hands by having faith and going against the laws of man.
It looks like God has indeed helped the FLDS out in respects to polygamy. Although their faith has been tested, and they have had to endure religious persecution multiple times since they left the LDS church, God has found a way to allow them to live polygamy in spite of it being against man's law.
Sorry, | 1:45 p.m. June 29, 2008
(not finding a duplicate. so give me some space)
Seems that the FLDS hold to the true teachings of the gospel.
Aren't they following the prophet, Jos. Smith? Who stated, firmly, (I'm referring to D&C, Sec.132) that the "new and everlasting covenant" of polygamy of plural wives is God's law and Mormons will abide His law or be "damned?" Was he a prophet of God or not? Which is truly from the Lord? A 'revelation' that begins "Verily, thus saith the Lord," or the "declaration" that says "To Whom It May Concern?" so that the US Gov. will not seize the property of the Church.
Congratulations, to the FLDS, who stand firm to the law of God, instead, of the law of governments
Seems that the FLDS hold to the true teachings of the gospel.
Aren't they following the prophet, Jos. Smith? Who stated, firmly, (I'm referring to D&C, Sec.132) that the "new and everlasting covenant" of polygamy of plural wives is God's law and Mormons will abide His law or be "damned?" Was he a prophet of God or not? Which is truly from the Lord? A 'revelation' that begins "Verily, thus saith the Lord," or the "declaration" that says "To Whom It May Concern?" so that the US Gov. will not seize the property of the Church.
Congratulations, to the FLDS, who stand firm to the law of God, instead, of the law of governments
Dan | 2:13 p.m. June 29, 2008
"Mainstream Mormons" wring their hands and exclaim,
"oh why wont the rest of the christian world accept us as christians?" Then in the same breath point their finger accusingly at the FLDS and declare, "those wicked apostates are not Mormons". GO FIGURE
"oh why wont the rest of the christian world accept us as christians?" Then in the same breath point their finger accusingly at the FLDS and declare, "those wicked apostates are not Mormons". GO FIGURE
Silly People | 3:34 p.m. June 29, 2008
FLDS and LDS arguing over polygamy, which is the
�true� church, and which has
God�s
�authority.�
You�re both wrong because Joseph Smith was wrong.
Jesus specifically told us that there is no marriage in heaven. He will prepare a place for us and we will be with our loved ones in eternity, but marriage is an earthly institution bonding us physically with our spouse. Even modern scientific evidence supports the view that gender is a biological phenomenon, not an eternal one. Sorry, but I will take the teachings of Christ over those of an ordinary man who seeks to redefine those teachings any day.
Jesus specifically told us that there is no marriage in heaven. He will prepare a place for us and we will be with our loved ones in eternity, but marriage is an earthly institution bonding us physically with our spouse. Even modern scientific evidence supports the view that gender is a biological phenomenon, not an eternal one. Sorry, but I will take the teachings of Christ over those of an ordinary man who seeks to redefine those teachings any day.
Johnson123 | 4:35 p.m. June 29, 2008
I think we would really see how the LDS faith is, when they legalize polygamy.I
tend to think you would see many members leaving the social club.
Linda Lamb | 7:19 p.m. June 29, 2008
H D J
We are Baptists and there are many many different kinds from Fundamentalist to Primitive to Missionary to Independent to Southern Baptists. We have different customs and emphases and do not always agree. But we worship and serve the same Jesus, believe in the Bible as God's Word and our ministers are to preach from it and lead the Church to serve God and our fellow man. I call other Baptists (no matter which brand) my brothers and sisters just as I call other Christians brothers and sisters in Christ.
One thing that I find sad is that most of the LDS folk appear to be more concerned about everyone knowing that the FLDS are not authentic LDS folk and not like them, than they seem to be in reaching out to their "relatives." Have there ever been efforts to help them, even pointing out error. Arent we suppose to do that for our brethren?
It is sad when we are more concerned about our "labels" than we are about our obediance to the teachings of Jesus.
We are Baptists and there are many many different kinds from Fundamentalist to Primitive to Missionary to Independent to Southern Baptists. We have different customs and emphases and do not always agree. But we worship and serve the same Jesus, believe in the Bible as God's Word and our ministers are to preach from it and lead the Church to serve God and our fellow man. I call other Baptists (no matter which brand) my brothers and sisters just as I call other Christians brothers and sisters in Christ.
One thing that I find sad is that most of the LDS folk appear to be more concerned about everyone knowing that the FLDS are not authentic LDS folk and not like them, than they seem to be in reaching out to their "relatives." Have there ever been efforts to help them, even pointing out error. Arent we suppose to do that for our brethren?
It is sad when we are more concerned about our "labels" than we are about our obediance to the teachings of Jesus.
Silly | 8:15 p.m. June 29, 2008
The problem in the world today is that too many people are too lazy to take time
out and do some fact searchin for themselves before frenzy feeding of the media
or criticing the LDS church.
Anonymous | 9:49 p.m. June 29, 2008
To Linda Lamb,
You do not know what you are talking about. Perhaps you should attend to your own black sheep.
You do not know what you are talking about. Perhaps you should attend to your own black sheep.
Jesus Christ is Lord! | 5:22 a.m. June 30, 2008
"... To Gilly | 2:11 a.m. June 27, 2008
Mormons are Christians. Christians believe in Christ. The name of our church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We most definately are Christians...."
Hi Gilly,
In order to be 'Christian', one would have to hold to the understanding that there is only one God; also known as monotheism. Christians believe that there is only one God, as taught in the scriptures, and eternally present in three personages, called the Holy Trinity. To believe in many Gods, or councils of Gods, etc, is contra-Christian. This is polytheism, and is the hallmark of pagan beliefs.
Another example: Christianity teaches (from the scriptures) that Satan was an elite angel, cast from heaven...a created being, not a God, and certainly not the brother of God. I could go on and on, but Mormonism is simply not Christianity. Compare it's teachings with what is found in the Bible (not the J.S. rewrite-footnote) and you'll see a clear difference.
There are many more such instances, but not enough space here to cover them.
Mormons are Christians. Christians believe in Christ. The name of our church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We most definately are Christians...."
Hi Gilly,
In order to be 'Christian', one would have to hold to the understanding that there is only one God; also known as monotheism. Christians believe that there is only one God, as taught in the scriptures, and eternally present in three personages, called the Holy Trinity. To believe in many Gods, or councils of Gods, etc, is contra-Christian. This is polytheism, and is the hallmark of pagan beliefs.
Another example: Christianity teaches (from the scriptures) that Satan was an elite angel, cast from heaven...a created being, not a God, and certainly not the brother of God. I could go on and on, but Mormonism is simply not Christianity. Compare it's teachings with what is found in the Bible (not the J.S. rewrite-footnote) and you'll see a clear difference.
There are many more such instances, but not enough space here to cover them.
To 8:15pm | 5:21 a.m. June 30, 2008
I really wish we could openly discuss the difference between LDS/FLDS and the
BIBLE. I'd love to put the teachings of Christ next to Joseph Smith and see
who is the true Prophet of God!
The problem is this webite censors the us when we reveal the truth of God's Word which speaks against LDS.
The problem is this webite censors the us when we reveal the truth of God's Word which speaks against LDS.
Paul in MD | 6:12 a.m. June 30, 2008
to oo0O0oo @ 5:41 6/28 - I guess I do come off sounding like a self-proclaimed
expert on plural marriage. Sorry about that. Let me clarify. I have been LDS
for over 30 years, active for most of that. I've never been called to any
position of more than strictly local authority, and as I've said in other
posts, I speak from my own knowledge and mine is the voice of my own opinion and
understanding. I may not be 100% correct, and were these posts not so limited
in length I would reiterate these points more often.
I don't watch Larry King, although I saw some of his interview with Gordon Hinckley. I have heard church leaders speak about plural marriage from time to time. I have not spoken with fundamentalists or polygamists (and have not said that I have). I have studied church history, and have read the entire Manifesto and D&C 132 (which a lot of posters here don't seem to have done).
My understanding is plural marriage is not evil, but its practice today is contrary to God's commands. Acting contrary to God's commands IS evil, so practicing polygamy today is wrong.
I don't watch Larry King, although I saw some of his interview with Gordon Hinckley. I have heard church leaders speak about plural marriage from time to time. I have not spoken with fundamentalists or polygamists (and have not said that I have). I have studied church history, and have read the entire Manifesto and D&C 132 (which a lot of posters here don't seem to have done).
My understanding is plural marriage is not evil, but its practice today is contrary to God's commands. Acting contrary to God's commands IS evil, so practicing polygamy today is wrong.
I think it's interesting | 11:12 a.m. June 30, 2008
And sad (but at least a first step) when people admit that hurtful things
aren't good "today". Well, I guess it's the first step in
progression to admit that it isn't good now. But there's alot of us
that know that it was never good and will never be good!
Linda Lamb | 11:13 a.m. June 30, 2008
To: "Anonymous"
I thought this was a discussion and opinions were welcome. I was answering H D J who implied I was an FLDS person posed as a Protestant. Meant no harm and sincerely care about the struggles of the FLDS people. There is so much in the world today that is ugly and hurtful and those who do believe in God and want to live according to His ways need to stick together and embrace those things we have in common, dont we?
I thought this was a discussion and opinions were welcome. I was answering H D J who implied I was an FLDS person posed as a Protestant. Meant no harm and sincerely care about the struggles of the FLDS people. There is so much in the world today that is ugly and hurtful and those who do believe in God and want to live according to His ways need to stick together and embrace those things we have in common, dont we?
Paul in MD | 11:33 a.m. June 30, 2008
To "I think it's interesting" and anyone else who says plural
marriage was never good - read the Old Testament. Several prophets and kings,
including Solomon, David, and Jacob, were commanded to practice it. The Old
Testament makes clear it isn't something to be practiced except when
specifically commanded by God.
LDS scripture and current teachings say the same thing.
LDS scripture and current teachings say the same thing.
Paul in MD | 11:47 a.m. June 30, 2008
The primary difference between the Holy Trinity, as held by
"mainstream" Christian faiths and the LDS version is in the nature of
their physical existence. The "mainstream" version is that God, Jesus
and the Holy Spirit are one being. We believe they are three distinct beings
working together with one purpose. God the Father directs Jesus Christ and the
Holy Spirit to carry out His work as needed, but they are one in purpose and
will, the Son and the Holy Spirit never deviating from the Father's
will.
Your interpretation of Satan's nature is correct - he is a fallen angel, a fallen child of God.
Compare a Godhead comprised of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as three distinct personages with the Bible's account (King James version, no footnotes) of Christ's baptism by John the Baptist. Now hold it up to the mainstream trinity. Which one really matches up best?
The mainstream idea of the Holy Trinity was not taught until the Nicean creed. There are several mentions of God and Jesus as separate in the Bible.
Your interpretation of Satan's nature is correct - he is a fallen angel, a fallen child of God.
Compare a Godhead comprised of God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit as three distinct personages with the Bible's account (King James version, no footnotes) of Christ's baptism by John the Baptist. Now hold it up to the mainstream trinity. Which one really matches up best?
The mainstream idea of the Holy Trinity was not taught until the Nicean creed. There are several mentions of God and Jesus as separate in the Bible.
Gail | 1:00 p.m. June 30, 2008
>
An ex-communicated Mormon may still believe in all the teachings, but they are no longer Mormons, even though they may refer to themselves as such. This is where the dividing line is drawn. The FLDS members for the most part have never belonged to the LDS church and do not follow the teachings, nor do they have the authority of the present day prophet, Thomas S. Monson.
My heart goes out to them concerning the miscarriage of justice in what the state of Texas has done to them in taking away their children and continuing the harassment of their practices. However similar the beliefs are, the major difference is that the prophet said that God took away polygamy, and I can see that it was for our protection, and their self appointed person decided that he knew more than God, and now these people are suffering from the guidance of a false prophet.
An ex-communicated Mormon may still believe in all the teachings, but they are no longer Mormons, even though they may refer to themselves as such. This is where the dividing line is drawn. The FLDS members for the most part have never belonged to the LDS church and do not follow the teachings, nor do they have the authority of the present day prophet, Thomas S. Monson.
My heart goes out to them concerning the miscarriage of justice in what the state of Texas has done to them in taking away their children and continuing the harassment of their practices. However similar the beliefs are, the major difference is that the prophet said that God took away polygamy, and I can see that it was for our protection, and their self appointed person decided that he knew more than God, and now these people are suffering from the guidance of a false prophet.
re:Gail | 3:40 p.m. June 30, 2008
>>...and now these people are suffering from the guidance of a false
prophet<<
Interesting comment. This is exactly what mainstream christian churches think about the LDS church.
Interesting comment. This is exactly what mainstream christian churches think about the LDS church.
Fred | 6:12 p.m. June 30, 2008
I only wish the LDS learn from the FLDS and stop trying to shove their religion
down our throats. We REALLY couldn't care less how many wives you have.
Just keep your nonesense religion to yourselves.
To "Paul in MD" | 7:26 p.m. June 30, 2008
Yes, plual marriage is in the Bible, but so is slavery, 2nd class citizenship
for women, stoning, blood sacrifice...(the list goes on and on). Since that
time we have found better ways. Of course there will always be a few nuts that
say that "God" told them to do hurtful things, but I believe they will
not be prelavant again.
So go ahead and make excuses for the past and so forth, but most of us know it for what it is...excuses for men's (not "God's") bad behavior.
So go ahead and make excuses for the past and so forth, but most of us know it for what it is...excuses for men's (not "God's") bad behavior.
Differences? | 7:20 a.m. July 1, 2008
For me, the differences in FLDS and LDS are the neglible. What is a matter of
concern is the similarities.
Both have a "modern day prophet" who (supposedly) can receive direct revelation from God. Whatever he says (when revelation)- the people do as if it was from God.
This is one of the reasons people think FLDS is crazy. Jeffs was "controlling", etc. LDS might be more respectable, but the potential problem exists with LDS as well.
Can any LDS person confirm if I understand this correctly?
Both have a "modern day prophet" who (supposedly) can receive direct revelation from God. Whatever he says (when revelation)- the people do as if it was from God.
This is one of the reasons people think FLDS is crazy. Jeffs was "controlling", etc. LDS might be more respectable, but the potential problem exists with LDS as well.
Can any LDS person confirm if I understand this correctly?
Paul in MD | 11:35 a.m. July 1, 2008
Re 7:26 6/30 - It would take far more space than is available here to accurately
and correctly outline the Biblical path of each of the items you disagree with.
Two of them, stoning and blood sacrifice, were part of the Mosaic law, which was
fulfilled with Christ's coming, and which He replaced with His law.
Plural marriage was not part of the Mosaic law, but was revealed, taught, recorded and practiced by later Old Testament prophets. They wrote that plural marriage is to be practiced when and how commanded by God, and those who did otherwise would be condemned. This is why Solomon fell out of favor with God.
God provided the Holy Spirit to us as His children to help us discern truth from lies. This is to help us weed out the "nuts" or tares from the wheat. Logic and intellect can help, but without the Spirit you are relying on your own limited understanding, instead of taking advantage of the guidance of God, who, like it or not, knows a bit more than you or I do.
Plural marriage was not part of the Mosaic law, but was revealed, taught, recorded and practiced by later Old Testament prophets. They wrote that plural marriage is to be practiced when and how commanded by God, and those who did otherwise would be condemned. This is why Solomon fell out of favor with God.
God provided the Holy Spirit to us as His children to help us discern truth from lies. This is to help us weed out the "nuts" or tares from the wheat. Logic and intellect can help, but without the Spirit you are relying on your own limited understanding, instead of taking advantage of the guidance of God, who, like it or not, knows a bit more than you or I do.
Paul in MD | 11:46 a.m. July 1, 2008
To Fred - Maybe it's just me, but if you are so sick of the LDS message,
why are you reading the Deseret News site? The SL Tribune is a much more
liberal paper.
For that matter, you can find a Web site for almost any newspaper in the world. I'm sure you can find one that is more to your liking.
As for feeling like we're shoving our religion down your throat, I am sorry you feel that way. You shouldn't be made to feel that way. I know some members can get pretty pushy, and they've been told not to. But I've noticed that kind of thing happens anywhere you have a concentration of people with some similar interest. It's not an excuse, just an observation.
A friend of ours' son plays youth-league baseball. Everything was fine until the other parents, who mostly belonged to the same church (not LDS), decided they needed to "save" our friend from our church. They got pretty belligerent. He's switched teams, it got so bad.
So, Fred, I wish you well, and hope you find what you're looking for.
For that matter, you can find a Web site for almost any newspaper in the world. I'm sure you can find one that is more to your liking.
As for feeling like we're shoving our religion down your throat, I am sorry you feel that way. You shouldn't be made to feel that way. I know some members can get pretty pushy, and they've been told not to. But I've noticed that kind of thing happens anywhere you have a concentration of people with some similar interest. It's not an excuse, just an observation.
A friend of ours' son plays youth-league baseball. Everything was fine until the other parents, who mostly belonged to the same church (not LDS), decided they needed to "save" our friend from our church. They got pretty belligerent. He's switched teams, it got so bad.
So, Fred, I wish you well, and hope you find what you're looking for.
zoar | 1:18 p.m. July 1, 2008
The original word Mormon was a definition given to members of the LDS Church
from non-members to label them as followers of Joseph Smith and believers in the
Book of Mormon. If you use that original application of the meaning,
fundamentalists and that includes the FLDS would also fit the definition.
However, the official name of the restored church as set forth by the Lord in
the D&C is the �Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints. They may call themselves Mormons as the LDS do but they are not free to
use the title, which the restored Church goes by. Admittedly, it is a lot less
work to use the word Mormons then the more longer version, that is why the name
still sticks with the LDS.
Z-bus | 1:23 p.m. July 1, 2008
Guadalajaran, for clarification. Polygamy was not started by the LDS church.
It has been around for a very, very, very long time. The Jews practiced it (king
David and Solomon), Muslims practice it, even eskimo's practiced it (in
reverse--polyandry). There are so many forms of polygamy and it is ubiquitous
throughout human history, on practically every continent.
Have fun with it | 1:45 p.m. July 1, 2008
I think we as LDS take ourselves a little too seriously when outsiders ask if
Mormons believe in having more than one wife, Rather than be so defensive have
a little fun with it. One time a young lady that I know asked me that question
and I matter-of factly told her that we did and if she was interested that I had
an opening for a third wife. Her eyes grew big as saucers and I told her I was
kidding and then explained to her that although the Church did at one time
practice polygamy, it has not done so for over a hundred years. I then ended my
conversation by telling her that we have one wife just like everybody else. When
she inquired about Jeffs and polygamy, I told her that when the LDS Church
discontinued the practice that there were some members that were angry because
of it and left the Church to start their own and that these are the followers of
these break off churches. She seemed to understand after that.
Boss around | 1:52 p.m. July 1, 2008
I am not going to read this polygamy junk anymore! You guys are all nuts!
Polygamy has always been abusive in all cultures. There are Africans who
practice polyandry and I'm sure it's just as abusive for the men in
those cultures to have to share their wife with her other husbands.
Some strong force needs to come along to put all you pro-polygamy men, and all your ugly stupid wives on an island all by yourselves, so you can all breed yourselves out of extinction.
Some strong force needs to come along to put all you pro-polygamy men, and all your ugly stupid wives on an island all by yourselves, so you can all breed yourselves out of extinction.
What the? | 2:03 p.m. July 1, 2008
I'm going to have a little fun on here and tell you ridiculous odd-balls
that someday Gods going to have little bit of fun with you too.
How about waking up to reality?
How about waking up to reality?
realitycheck | 2:42 p.m. July 1, 2008
if everyone spent as much time helping others as they do spouting off religious
doctrine, the world would be a much better place....
Dawg | 2:56 p.m. July 1, 2008
To Paul in MD,
You make no sense. LDS doctrine: Jesus was Jehovah--the God of the Old Testament.
So what you are saying is Jesus(Jehovah) gave these strange laws -- stoning and blood sacrifice, as part of the �Mosaic law,� � and then Jesus (now Jesus in flesh) �fulfilled� His own law? And then this Jesus/Jehovah character, who also revealed Plural marriage to �later Old Testament prophets,� did away with it when he came in the flesh. And then he started it up again about 1,830 years later with Joseph Smith, only to cease it again around 1890 (but not really cease it completely for another 10 years)!?
Is that about it?
Well, you are correct when you say �Logic and intellect can help, but without the Spirit you are relying on your own limited understanding.� Unfortunately, my befuddled, duped friend, your so-called �spirit� can be invoked to justify anything. That is the same �spirit� the FLDS invoke so you can know �beyond doubt� that �The Principle� is still true! That is the same �spirit� invoked by anyone to justify any kind of radical religious nonsense! Stick with LOGIC; MUCH better track record than crazy �revelations.�
You make no sense. LDS doctrine: Jesus was Jehovah--the God of the Old Testament.
So what you are saying is Jesus(Jehovah) gave these strange laws -- stoning and blood sacrifice, as part of the �Mosaic law,� � and then Jesus (now Jesus in flesh) �fulfilled� His own law? And then this Jesus/Jehovah character, who also revealed Plural marriage to �later Old Testament prophets,� did away with it when he came in the flesh. And then he started it up again about 1,830 years later with Joseph Smith, only to cease it again around 1890 (but not really cease it completely for another 10 years)!?
Is that about it?
Well, you are correct when you say �Logic and intellect can help, but without the Spirit you are relying on your own limited understanding.� Unfortunately, my befuddled, duped friend, your so-called �spirit� can be invoked to justify anything. That is the same �spirit� the FLDS invoke so you can know �beyond doubt� that �The Principle� is still true! That is the same �spirit� invoked by anyone to justify any kind of radical religious nonsense! Stick with LOGIC; MUCH better track record than crazy �revelations.�
Pray Sincerely | 3:04 p.m. July 1, 2008
To Paul in MD,
Regarding your ignorant comments about theology (specifically, the Holy Trinity versus Mormon polytheism), you really need to get out and study more than just the Gospel Doctrine manuals.
When I talk to LDS people, I find that they like C.S. Lewis, so I am going to recommend that you read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity". Specifically, read Chapter 2 in Book IV: The Three-Personal God. C.S. Lewis makes the Trinitarian doctrine understandable (assuming you have a basic faith). I will also recommend that you study it with an open mind -- or, in words you may understand: "with a sincere heart and with real intent." Surely the Holy Spirit will reveal the Truth to you, as promised in Acts, as it has been revealed to me.
Peace be with you.
A Catholic Friend
Regarding your ignorant comments about theology (specifically, the Holy Trinity versus Mormon polytheism), you really need to get out and study more than just the Gospel Doctrine manuals.
When I talk to LDS people, I find that they like C.S. Lewis, so I am going to recommend that you read C.S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity". Specifically, read Chapter 2 in Book IV: The Three-Personal God. C.S. Lewis makes the Trinitarian doctrine understandable (assuming you have a basic faith). I will also recommend that you study it with an open mind -- or, in words you may understand: "with a sincere heart and with real intent." Surely the Holy Spirit will reveal the Truth to you, as promised in Acts, as it has been revealed to me.
Peace be with you.
A Catholic Friend
To oo0O0oo | 3:11 p.m. July 1, 2008
Supposing your arguments are true then it would naturally follow that the Lord
would withdraw his priesthood from the LDS Church and give the keys to another.
The problem is that there are several fundamentalist groups as well as many
independents who practice polygamy but each group claims to have the keys of
sealing. Which means that even they are not agreed as to who holds the keys
because if they did, they would all be united in one group with one prophet. It
that were true, you might have a better case accusing the LDS of departing from
church that was restored through Joseph Smith.
Daizy | 3:17 p.m. July 1, 2008
Hey Dawg,
I agree with you. There is too much confusion in the Mormon doctrine. I think it is total nonsense, and haven't believed in it for quite sometime now. It's wonderful that the internet and many books have brought the light to many members eyes. I am happy knowing that polygamy was setup by some mormon men who couldn't just have one.
I agree with you. There is too much confusion in the Mormon doctrine. I think it is total nonsense, and haven't believed in it for quite sometime now. It's wonderful that the internet and many books have brought the light to many members eyes. I am happy knowing that polygamy was setup by some mormon men who couldn't just have one.
Smithologists | 6:12 p.m. July 1, 2008
Many Gods, council of Gods, so many Gods! That's polytheism where I come
from, and I aint just talking about the misperception of what is called the
'trinity'. There is only one God; He tells us in the scripture that he
knows of none other, neither before or after. Y'all might want to look into
that. If you're fine with that, you're fine with it. But don't
call yourselves Christians if you're going to be polytheistic. That's
not Christianity my friends; that's Joe Smithism.
Outside of Utah | 7:39 p.m. July 1, 2008
At least where I've traveled, I have noticed that many people associate the
LDS church with polygamy in the sense that it's often one of the first
things that comes up or gets asked about. But most of the people I've
associated with outside Utah and/or the church haven't believed the LDS
church currently practices or endorses polygamy. I haven't really talked
to many people since the FLDS situation has been in the news, but it does
surprise me that there are still a lot of people that don't make the
distinction between the two sects, especially when you can readily access
information about the LDS church online.
Paul in MD | 5:49 a.m. July 2, 2008
To Dawg - Jesus is Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament. The Mosaic law was
given by Him to prepare the Jews for His coming in the flesh. Much of the
Mosaic law was given to teach them about what Christ was going to do for them.
Blood sacrifice typified this. The sacrifice was to be unblemished and of the
first of the flock, as was Jesus. Since the Mosaic law was given to prepare the
Jews for His coming, then His coming fulfilled the law. What about that
doesn't make sense?
Remember also that according to LDS doctrine, Christ does nothing of Himself, or according to His own will, but what is of His Father's will.
There have been men throughout history who've used religion and faith to bend others to their will. LDS who are truly living the faith won't do that. We'll tell you what we believe, but tell you that you have to study and pray for yourselves, and seek personal confirmation from the Spirit. If you won't do that, or don't get that confirmation, no hard feelings, God bless and we can still be friends.
Remember also that according to LDS doctrine, Christ does nothing of Himself, or according to His own will, but what is of His Father's will.
There have been men throughout history who've used religion and faith to bend others to their will. LDS who are truly living the faith won't do that. We'll tell you what we believe, but tell you that you have to study and pray for yourselves, and seek personal confirmation from the Spirit. If you won't do that, or don't get that confirmation, no hard feelings, God bless and we can still be friends.
Paul in MD | 6:01 a.m. July 2, 2008
To Pray Sincerely - You call me ignorant, then give me no help in understanding
your point of view other than to give me a homework assignment?
Let me give you a quick reading assignment and a simple question:
"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."
I ask this question, truly wanting to know your answer, not picking a fight, and not trying to prove any points. What is there about the above quote that disagrees with the definition of the Holy Trinity as you understand it? Yes, it is a simple quote, and does not delve into the subject to the level of James Talmage's "Jesus the Christ", but it is one of the first tenets of our belief, and I think would be a good place to find a common point of reference.
By the way, I have studied a bit more than Gospel Doctrine manuals since converting to the LDS church in 1978.
Let me give you a quick reading assignment and a simple question:
"We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost."
I ask this question, truly wanting to know your answer, not picking a fight, and not trying to prove any points. What is there about the above quote that disagrees with the definition of the Holy Trinity as you understand it? Yes, it is a simple quote, and does not delve into the subject to the level of James Talmage's "Jesus the Christ", but it is one of the first tenets of our belief, and I think would be a good place to find a common point of reference.
By the way, I have studied a bit more than Gospel Doctrine manuals since converting to the LDS church in 1978.
Dawg | 10:33 a.m. July 2, 2008
Paul,
Thanks for an attempt at an explanation. I believe this "to get the people ready" argument is the same one used by LDS apologists to explain away the racist ban on blacks holding the priesthood, isn't it? In all seriousness, do you see how absurd that appears? Jehovah (the premortal Jesus) orders the genocide of several races so the Children of Israel can take back a land they abandoned 400 years earlier; but then the mortal Jesus teaches "love your enemies" and "forgive" and "judge not"...? And you claim that this makes sense because "God's people weren't ready"?? Sorry, but that is a horse that doesn't ride.
Now as for your Holy Trinity comment. What is your point? Are you saying that Mormons hold to a Trinitarian theology as shown be the ambiguity of your First Article of Faith? If I am understanding you, it seems that a person who believes in the Trinitarian doctrine could be a Mormon without changing that belief? But earlier you were claiming that the ANTI-Trinitarian theology of the LDS is like the most important thing to have been "restored" by Joseph Smith? Honestly, do you see how that doesn't make sense?
Thanks for an attempt at an explanation. I believe this "to get the people ready" argument is the same one used by LDS apologists to explain away the racist ban on blacks holding the priesthood, isn't it? In all seriousness, do you see how absurd that appears? Jehovah (the premortal Jesus) orders the genocide of several races so the Children of Israel can take back a land they abandoned 400 years earlier; but then the mortal Jesus teaches "love your enemies" and "forgive" and "judge not"...? And you claim that this makes sense because "God's people weren't ready"?? Sorry, but that is a horse that doesn't ride.
Now as for your Holy Trinity comment. What is your point? Are you saying that Mormons hold to a Trinitarian theology as shown be the ambiguity of your First Article of Faith? If I am understanding you, it seems that a person who believes in the Trinitarian doctrine could be a Mormon without changing that belief? But earlier you were claiming that the ANTI-Trinitarian theology of the LDS is like the most important thing to have been "restored" by Joseph Smith? Honestly, do you see how that doesn't make sense?
quit, it | 10:13 p.m. July 3, 2008
(No this is not a duplicate. It's called discrimation, or is it, persecution?)
Seems that the FLDS hold to the true teachings of the gospel.
Aren't they following the prophet, Jos. Smith? Who stated, firmly, (I'm referring to D&C, Sec.132) that the "new and everlasting covenant" of polygamy of plural wives is God's law and Mormons will abide His law or be "damned?" Was he a prophet of God or not? Which is truly from the Lord? A 'revelation' that begins "Verily, thus saith the Lord," or the "declaration" that says "To Whom It May Concern?" so that the US Gov. will not seize the property of the Church.
Congratulations, to the FLDS, who stand firm to the law of God, instead, of the law of governments.
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This is why I am so annoyed when people say the FLDS are "brainwashed" or "forced" into things such as marriage. The FLDS are counseled on whom they should marry. Why is OK for everybody else's religious leaders to counsel them on their life, but the FLDS cannot do this. It is simply because the FLDS beliefs do not agree with their own.
If you reply, please don't bring out obvious replies that have nothing to do with what I just said, such as, "I can't believe you actually support underage marriages." If you say something like that, you are responding to your emotional response to what I said, instead of what I actually said.