Deseret News | LDS Church backs marriage measure on California ballot

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LDS Church backs marriage measure on California ballot

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A Wise Man Wrote this | 9:46 a.m. June 28, 2008

You should know that like you, family and marriage are very important to me. As I have become acquainted with gay and lesbian couples, I have been touched by their goodness, sincerity, and commitment. I am persuaded that allowing marriage equality would, in fact, strengthen the institutions of family and marriage in our country. Perhaps it might even make all of us a little more considerate and responsible as both marriage partners and parents. I can only hope that the citizens of California, and my fellow Mormons, will possess the wisdom and moral decency to reject the unreasonable and unjust call to discriminate against our gay and lesbian coworkers, friends, neighbors, church members, and family.

To re: John Lamber 4:04 | 9:54 a.m. June 28, 2008

I am not John Lambert, but your assertions are simply wrong. The teaching has been justified repeatedly. Please see the Family Proclamation for beginners. I understand that you may not agree with it, but it has been there.

The most serious "scaremongering" I have seen is coming form the pro-SSM crowd.

And what kind of "evidence" are you looking for, and in regards to which question?

breeze | 11:08 a.m. June 28, 2008

Re: Steve:

**I'm not making this up. Just something to ponder before you continue to speak out against anyone who isn't straight. I'm sure if many "straight" people can be honest with themselves, they can probably think of at least one instance in their life of same gender "curiousity".**

What you're forgetting is that there's a Huge difference between curiosity & actually acting something out.

Comments continue below

breeze | 11:25 a.m. June 28, 2008

Unchangeable:

**If the LDS Church had remained steadfast and unchangeable in its doctrine there would have been no need for the FLDS to break away.**

Nonsense...they left because of their own pride & selfishness, wanting to live as they wanted to instead of being obedient to God's laws/living as he would have them do.

**Why are the faithful not praying, as they did for their fellow blacks, for full blessings for all of god's children.**

LDS faithful don't pray for God to do something he condemns in scripture/OT, which is the homosexual lifestyle. I don't care who twists the heck out of scripture to suit themselves...God stated it very plainly & clearly how he feels about homosexuality.

**Afterall, the blacks were held back due to the perception of carrying the sin of Cain.**

Not a perception...it happened.

maude | 11:27 a.m. June 28, 2008

If the church wants to directly reference and influence politics I fully support them. I also fully support that they need to pay taxes then.

breeze | 11:38 a.m. June 28, 2008

Re: Time to pick sides:

AMEN!!!!!

breeze | 12:08 p.m. June 28, 2008

Re: Moral law -

Great post!!!

To re: John Lamber 4:04 | 9:54 a | 12:39 p.m. June 28, 2008

"your assertions are simply wrong. The teaching has been justified repeatedly. Please see the Family Proclamation for beginners. I understand that you may not agree with it, but it has been there."

*bzzt* Sorry, but 'the church says so' does not constitute a justification. Once again, people in this thread have repeatedly CLAIMED that allowing gay marriage will destroy society. Not ONE SHRED of evidence has been presented to justify this accusation.

Name ONE piece of scaremongering that has come from the pro-SSM side?

Once again, the one of the worst places on Earth with the biggest signs of society breaking down is the Middle East, where sexual rules are the STRICTEST, not the loosest.

to maude | 12:40 p.m. June 28, 2008

I'm with you, babe! If they want to make public policy let them asssume the public responsibility of paying taxes.

In the end it wouldn't make much of a difference tho. The direction of public opinion is to tolerance. Mormons should be grateful for that. Especially when they're showing their nastiest, most regressive and narrow-mindedness because it will take a whole lot of tolerance on the part of most of us to accept their negative undemocratic thinking.

Anonymous | 2:15 p.m. June 28, 2008

breeze- I hate to say it, but you exhibit very radical and partly medievil thinking here. Where is the love? And who made you the spokesman for the church? I am shocked. By the way- What exactly is the homosexual lifestyle? Do you mean they sleep around more than heterosexuals, or are more into drugs? What makes them so different from you except their (mostly inherited)sexual tendenciies? Some of them might be even closer to God than you- ever thought about that?

To re: John Lamber 4:04 | 9:54 a | 2:38 p.m. June 28, 2008

Thanks for clarifying what you meant by justification, so no *bzzt* needed.

Scaremongering: Threats to not only enact legislation limiting religious freedom, but actual policies are in place. See the note above about the school girl in California, and the arrests against pastors for teaching that homosexuality is wrong. Scaremongering and threats are exactly what we see from the gay rights movement and you can see many of those threats in this thread. Try speaking as an ex-gay at a university and see how much the gay lobby respects freedom of speech then.

Children adopted by same-sex couples are twice as likely to be gay themselves than those adoped by hetero couples (although the rate for adopted children is higher overall - a good area for further study).

Natural adolescent curiosity about gender are increasingly sexualized, and the GLA in the local schools embraces these kids before they even know what is going on. They are naturally categorized and integrated - and trapped.

Why should a child who is molested by an older male and told "now you are gay" have no options but to accept that lifestyle?

200 words are not enough. There is much more to say.

Funny | 2:50 p.m. June 28, 2008

Funny how Mormon's are called narrow minded bigoted and nasty when we are only expressing OUR beliefs. I guess us Mormons have no right to the first ammendement because our speech is hate speech? Whatever. We have every right to express our views. We will forever stand firm on this issue because we KNOW this is God's law and word on the matter.

To Re: John Lambert 12:39 pm | 2:52 p.m. June 28, 2008

Your comment:
Once again, the one of the worst places on Earth with the biggest signs of society breaking down is the Middle East, where sexual rules are the STRICTEST, not the loosest.

You backhandedly undercut your own argument. In European countries where SSM has been in place for several years, there is also an influx of Middle Easterners who are having all of the children. The rest of the country is satisfied to have gay marriages that are unable to produce children, or to support their current lifestyle by choosing to none or maybe 1. In 20 years there will be no more "Netherlands" as we know it today.

I'd call that a total societal breakdown where the culture you decry as broken down takes over the others that have the loosest rules.

to Funny | 3:40 p.m. June 28, 2008

No one was making noise when you were keeping your ideas to yourselves as individuals or within your communities. When the LDS reaches its arms out from SLC and tries to enshrine undemocratic discrimination into the constitution of CA there is blowback.

All I can think is thank God that Mitt Romney will never be President of this country. This example will be a clear indication forever of what the tampering with the federal government would be if there was a Mormon in the White House.

re: john lambert | 4:09 p.m. June 28, 2008

I think Mr. Lambert's distinction between advice and inspiration would be simple. It's inspiration when the advice works. It's advice when the advice doesn't work.

advice | 4:45 p.m. June 28, 2008

If you read some published personal histories some of the advice gays have received it gets pretty amazing. Some felt that masturbation led to homosexuality. I read one personal history where an LDS man, who was trying to distance himself from homosexual feelings, was advised to not touch his penis while going to the bathroom for fear of having his homosexual feelings increased.

I don't understand | 5:23 p.m. June 28, 2008

I cannot believe that there are actually members of the church who are stating that they will not support the church's position. This is from the PROPHET. Have you forgotten who he his? He is the mouth peace of Heavenly Father!! Do you now pick and choose which commandments you will keep as well as what directions from the prophet you will follow. I am so saddened this day that some of you are allowing the world to influence you so much. The church is not saying that gay people are bad, we are to love all people as Christ does. The church is simply restating what is already written for the world to see, that is the "Family Proclamation". Most of us have this hanging in our homes, I love this document and I pray that you will read it again before speaking out against our prophet.

to breeze | 6:14 p.m. June 28, 2008

I can understand why you chose your moniker. Whew!

To I don't understand | 6:39 p.m. June 28, 2008

You state "This is from the PROPHET." There was a time when I was much younger that this would have been enough for me. As I've gotten older I've learned that not every word uttered by past prophets have been actual doctrine. How do we know this is not simply "advice" or personal "opinion"? Even when I pray about it, my mind remains confused. Somehow I just can't get the feeling that this is right. Sorry, but I don't know what else to do. If it is truly right then why does it feel so WRONG?

Anonymous | 7:16 p.m. June 28, 2008

The LDS has had prophets who were senile. Senile! What does it mean that to have prophets who are the mouthpiece of Heavenly Father and are senile, for cripes sakes?

Meanwhile, a senile prophet could do as well as Monson has on this issue...

What's good for the goose | 10:23 p.m. June 28, 2008

Let me see if I've got this right.
Jesus loves me and I can continue to go to church and pay my tithing and be happy member of God's true church if I remain celibate while the rest of you get to do what "comes natural."???

No thank you.

I'm a practising homosexual and that's what comes naturally to me. Now I cannot wait until I can get married to multiple men. What's good for the goose is even better for the ganders!

To Breeze | 10:30 p.m. June 28, 2008

"God" also clearly stated that the Word of Wisdom was not to be a commandment (Read your D&C). But that didn't stop the "prophet" and the church for over ruling Him on that one did it? Last time I went for a temple interview I was asked if I kept the commandment on the Word of Wisdom.

re: 2:38 p.m | 10:58 p.m. June 28, 2008

"Threats to not only enact legislation limiting religious freedom, but actual policies are in place."

Plain English translation: they want YOU to stop forcing YOUR subjective religious-based rules on them. Your freedom ends when they infringe on someone else.

"See the note above about the school girl in California, and the arrests against pastors for teaching that homosexuality is wrong."

Yes, thats called "hate speech" and is no different from saying any other group is evil.

"Scaremongering and threats are exactly what we see from the gay rights movement and you can see many of those threats in this thread."

Plain English translation: they want you to stop calling them "evil" without any justification. You want to say the behavior is wrong, you need MORE than just "my church says so".

"Children adopted by same-sex couples are twice as likely to be gay themselves than those adoped by hetero couples"

1) Source?
2) Circular reasoning. Using your conclusion that being gay is bad to support itself.

Anonymous | 10:59 p.m. June 28, 2008

"Funny how Mormon's are called narrow minded bigoted and nasty when we are only expressing OUR beliefs."

But you're NOT just "expressing" your beliefs. You're trying to get your beliefs enshrined in LAW that would require EVERYONE to follow them, regardless of whether they accept them or not.

re: I don't understand | 11:05 p.m. June 28, 2008

Its simple. The Prophet is still HUMAN. He is still entitled to his own opinions about things. An I have seen many known falsehoods come out from the mouths of "the Brethren" in conference.

I've heard them proclaim that homosexuality does not occur in any other species besides humans. Completely false. I have personally witnessed a male dog mount another male and there are many documented cases.

I've heard President Packer himself utter several of the standard strawman distortions about Evolution theory from the pulpit (The Pattern of Our Parentage)

re: 2:38 p.m. | 11:11 p.m. June 28, 2008

"Why should a child who is molested by an older male and told "now you are gay" have no options but to accept that lifestyle?"

A) Exactly WHO is doing this. Stop citing unreferenced claims.
B) This falls under pedophilia which NO ONE (claims from the religious right not withstanding) is advocation legalizing. If a gay man molests a child, he is imprisoned just the same as a straight man molesting a child.

Once again, allow me to elaborate on the ENORMOUS difference between homosexuality and pedophilia/rape/any other criminal activity folks try and equate with homosexuality. In a homosexual relationship between two adults, BOTH PEOPLE ARE CONSENTING ADULTS. The same cannot be said for pedophilia, rape, etc.

re: Breeze | 11:20 p.m. June 28, 2008

"I don't care who twists the heck out of scripture to suit themselves..."

Simply quoting some of the insane laws in scripture is "twisting" eh?

"God stated it very plainly & clearly how he feels about homosexuality."

The same "God" who said it was OK to own slaves and murder disobedient children? The same "God" who said its OK to BEAT said slaves so long as they don't actually die? The same "God" who said that if a man rapes a woman who is not engaged to another man, the rapist needs to MARRY said woman?

Face reality. No omniscient deity wrote the Old Testament. It was written by bronze-age ignorants who though hale and snow was kept in jars in the sky as a war reserve.

Reality is on some level, you realize there are plenty of absurdities in the Bible but you don't want to face that fact and your response above proves it.

re: 2:52 p.m. | 11:25 p.m. June 28, 2008

"You backhandedly undercut your own argument. In European countries where SSM has been in place for several years, there is also an influx of Middle Easterners who are having all of the children. The rest of the country is satisfied to have gay marriages that are unable to produce children, or to support their current lifestyle by choosing to none or maybe 1. In 20 years there will be no more "Netherlands" as we know it today.

I'd call that a total societal breakdown where the culture you decry as broken down takes over the others that have the loosest rules."

Ah, so homosexuality is bad because religious fanatics will take over? Are you trying to shoot yourself in the foot?

Furthermore, this is yet ANOTHER example of someone taking a trend which is KNOWN to vary considerably and even completely reverse (population growth rates) and assuming its constant. Also a slippery slope fallacy too.

re: 2:38 p.m. | 11:44 p.m. June 28, 2008

"See the note above about the school girl in California, and the arrests against pastors for teaching that homosexuality is wrong."

Replace "gay" with "mormon" and see how your attitude changes. And don't say it doesn't happen. Fundamentalist Christians continue to this day claiming Joseph Smith was the anti-Christ and all LDS people are going to hell.

"Scaremongering and threats are exactly what we see from the gay rights movement and you can see many of those threats in this thread. Try speaking as an ex-gay at a university and see how much the gay lobby respects freedom of speech then."

In other words, you want your freedom of speech to call them "evil" but you don't want them to have THEIR freedom of speech to boo and hiss and criticize you. It always amazes me how right-wingers invariable try to describe criticism as "infringing on your freedom of speech"

To re: 2:38 p.m. | 5:05 a.m. June 29, 2008

Anyone can tell the difference between booing and hissing to express disagreement with what was just said versus continually booing and hissing to prevent a speaker from being heard.

At the local university near where I live, which brings in speakers of all persuasions, it has happened that a conservative speaker was continuously shouted down and booed as soon as he started to speak, which continued until security was finally able to escort the instigators out of the building. Now just who is open minded and unafraid of the ideas of others?

Anonymous | 3:36 p.m. June 29, 2008

Re: CA Mormon

What is it with some LDS members on this board? Our prophet has spoken, therefore we know the Lord's mind on homosexuality/gay marriage - it's a sin. Bottom line - when we go against our prophet we go against the Lord!!

Anonymous | 3:41 p.m. June 29, 2008

Re: CA Mormon

Our prophet speaks the mind & will of the Lord. He's told us what the Lord thinks about homosexuality & gay marriage - they are sins. Bottom line, we are for the prohpet/the Lord or we aren't.

Anonymous | 3:50 p.m. June 29, 2008

To Saddened:

When our minds & lives are in tune/harmony with the Lord's will, then our minds & lives will also be in tune with that of our prophet's as his will is only ever to follow the Lord's will...therefore, our votes will be the prophet's votes.

Anonymous | 5:59 p.m. June 29, 2008

Candace, great post!!

breeze | 6:14 p.m. June 29, 2008

To: Str8 saint in the golden state:

**I've got a rainbow ribbon to wear on Sunday and I'm prepared to walk out of sacrament meeting when the letter is read. I'm also prepared to work against the proposed amendment between now and Nov. 3.**

As always you, like all members, have your agency & can do what you will. Bottom line, though, is our actions show where our hearts truly are & by taking the action you plan to in your sacrament meeting, it's sadly obvious that your heart lies with that of the world instead of with the Lord & our prophet.

breeze | 6:22 p.m. June 29, 2008

To: To Sarah:

**I'm sorry. But how do we know what Church doctrine is anymore? Is this current "request" from the First Presidency really "doctrine"? Or is it just the "opinion of men"?**

The best way to know is to get on your knees & simply ask the Lord. Our prophet is not just any man - the Lord chose him as his mouth piece to the world. What more is there to say?

breeze | 6:35 p.m. June 29, 2008

**Sorry, those gay couples that want children are having children NOW. They are not waiting for permission. This amendment will not stop them from having or adopting and actually hurts those children by not giving them more stability in their homes.

Try again.**

Children will never find stability in a home where parents are of the same sex...God made mothers & fathers for a very specific purpose & no matter how sick people are of hearing it, God made Adam & Eve & not Adam & Steve.

breeze | 6:44 p.m. June 29, 2008

**I believe marriage is ordained by God and only between a man and a woman. However, I also believe that marriage between same sex couples is their right as free agents. So...We may choose life or we may choose death. The choice is ours.**

Does this mean you'll be voting for gay marriage?

J. Durrant | 6:59 p.m. June 29, 2008

This is the beginning of the sifting the wheat from the tares. First of all, let me say this. I do not shun, persecute, reject, or hate gay people. I have two friends currently that are gay. I have known 5-6 others in my life, and there was a point where I considered it myself. In those struggles and associations, I have learned the following:

First point, Being inclined to the gay feelings felt, doesn't make it right or ok. but it doesn't make YOU evil either. It is the decision that make or breaks you. Being prone to gayness, or Alcoholism, or violence, or shyness, or sexual addictions, etc. doesn't mean you should follow that path. That is what this is all about, seeing what decisions you will make, being faced with adversity and conflict is part of life. Having those feeling isn't wrong. Acting on them is. Again, it is the act, or action that is evil, not the person.

J. Durrant | 7:02 p.m. June 29, 2008

Second, free agency isn't free. We are all free to chose, to make choices. We are NOT free to choose the consequences of those choices. We are free to believe what we want. We are free to believe the sky is purple if that is what we want to believe. That doesn't change the truth though. The sky will still be blue, whether we believe it is or not. Deciding to act on those gay feelings, or that urge to Drink, or Beat up your spouse, or any other urge we feel, whether it is weak or strong, doesn't make doing it right, no matter how you might try to justify it.

I think the church is right to encourage this vote for righteousness, according to it's teachings. I feel saddened that they would feel it necessary to even have to do it at all. The people should already know the principles and act accordingly. And really, we are all fooling ourselves if we think we can separate religion and politics. Religion should be a way of life. And politics tend to dictate how we live. Isn't that basically the same?

Anonymous | 7:26 p.m. June 29, 2008

>>"The toothpaste is out of the tube." Gay people ARE living together, openly. Gay people DO have children. Gay people ARE adopting. Gay people HAVE gotten married in many, many places. Too late to undo what has already been done.<<

Too late, indeed...most unfortunate for those who've chosen to give in to such things.

Anonymous | 7:36 p.m. June 29, 2008

**Being LDS and supporting the freedom for a gay couple to choose to be married or not is NOT condoning sin, it is supporting free agency and God is all about us having free agency.**

Sure it is as our prophet has stated as clearly & plainly as is possible that it is a sin in the Lord's eyes & why he/the prophet tells us to stand up for the Lord & vote against gay marriage. And sure we have our free agency, but that doesn't mean the Lord will condone any choice me make just because he's given us free agency.

Anonymous | 7:41 p.m. June 29, 2008

**Is there no one here that feels the cognitive dissonance that I feel? I love my church and want to obey the leaders, but I love my country and feel that this is most UNAMERICAN. We do not have the right to limit the privileges of any minority group, even if we think they are sinners! They have only broken the law of God, not the law of the land. We have no right. HELP ME!**

They have ONLY broken the law of God, not the law of the land??? Unbelievable...yet again another member wanting to please the world instead of the Lord. And we have EVERY right to stand up for truth & decency as the Lord & our prophet have asked of us over & over & over...

Anonymous | 7:47 p.m. June 29, 2008

**Although I'm not in California anymore, I fully support the first presidency of the church. They will never lead the church astray. Whose on the Lord's side who? Now is the time to tell. We ask it fearlessly who's on the Lord's side who??**

Yep, that's the very bottom line on any issues such as this one!

Anonymous | 7:51 p.m. June 29, 2008

**You may be on the Lord's side, but the government can't. That is against the first amendment. Please understand that the government is what is at stake, not the church.**

The government is a temporary institution but the Lord/his church is an eternal institution...easy to see which should matter most.

Anonymous | 8:18 p.m. June 29, 2008

Great comment!

(**You can do what you want and I can do what I want. I'll just take my thread in the intertwined fabric of society and yank it out, and you can take yours and pull it from here to there. That wont effect the whole fabric will it? It doesnt matter what Bob does either, whatever he does to his threads wont effect society if theres no direct victim. Lets just hope nobody puts any stress on the fabric.

I think however what each person is and does irreversably effects us all, whether the intention was that or not. No one is alone.**)

Anonymous | 8:39 p.m. June 29, 2008

**If you make it your business to deny basic human rights to gays and lesbians...be aware that there will be a backlash. You have NO right to dictate what we can do in our lives. This is Mormon gay bashing at its height. Leave us alone and we will leave you alone. Amazing that you have not complained that gays and lesbians, too, pay taxes...shouldn't you start that crusade? Saying that gay marriage will destroy heterosexual marriage is like saying that the taxes gays pay will destroy the IRS!!! Grow up people and get a life...your own...and leave mine alone!!!**

We have every right to speak up for what we feel is good & decent. Just because we disagree with your lifestyle doesn't mean we have to sit & be silent & we won't. We aren't concerned what mankind thinks of us but only what God thinks of us.

Anonymous | 8:46 p.m. June 29, 2008

**I think that it is amazing that in the supposedly free nation of the United States where there is suypposed to be Freedom of speech and press, Mormons can voiced their hatred of gays and lesbians and even claim to have the right to dictate what rights other Americans can have or not have. This Mormon run press allows for continued homophobia but silences those who would speak against Mormonism. Mormons continuously moan and groan about how they have been mistreated in history. So what gives them the right now to mistreat another part of society. "with liberty and justice for all" NOT...at least not in Utah.**

True, we have freedom of speech & the press & that's why we can speak up against an issue we feel is detrimental to all of society. So, we're not suppose to speak up unless we agree with others/gay marriage? Our leaders are always teaching us to be compassionate & tolerant of others but that doesn't mean we have to agree with everyones actions/choices.

annoyed | 12:24 a.m. June 30, 2008

Why not make such huge public ordeal out of a man cheating on his wife? The bible says that's wrong also. So many more awful things going on today. Why worry so much about this. Besides, anyone been reading anything scientific about gays and lesbians? You know how it's GENETIC it some cases??? What right do we have to tell someone that they are not allowed to be happy? I quit attending services regularly 8 years ago or so because of this very issue and decided to start taking my kids back today of all days and guess what the first thing I hear is? come on. just let them have the same right to happiness as everyone else. We will all be judged on our actions eventually. And you will not be looked on any different than a gay person. So live your life the best you know how and let them live theirs.

Summer reading material | 7:50 a.m. June 30, 2008

For those heterosexuals who believe this is a simple topic of people choosing to be evil, I would suggest reading about Stuart Matis, a gay person who desperately tried to live a righteous life but under the rancor of the prop 22 battle in CA killed himself or a married couple who wrote their story under the name of Lynn and Jim Conley in the book, "Peculiar People." Jim Conley was a married gay man. The Conley's loved each other and tried to work through his homosexuality. They budgeted $100,000 for whatever treatments they thought would help, prayed and fasted for a long period of time. In the end, nothing changed. They divorced as friends, unable to exorcise those feelings.

Most gays are "born that way" for whatever reason. For the "iron rod" Mormons, this is good reading. It won't change your mind, but it will change your heart. Learning to understand gays is good for us all.

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