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LDS Church backs marriage measure on California ballot
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So Cal Resident | 4:34 p.m. June 26, 2008
I find all of the comments very intersting. Such anger. Satan is the author of
contention, maybe each of you should look within to find out why you are so
angered by this? This is DEFINATLY a moral issue. And for the record, the LDS
faith is not the only one to support it. Why aren't the papers reporting
on the Catholic Church's support of this measure? I have friends and
even family members that are gay. I still love them, although I don't
agree with their lifestyle, just like I don't agree with the lifestyle of
friends and family that think nothing of sex outside of marriage or getting
drunk every weekend. AND as a So Cal girl, this is also a constitutional issue.
We voted 8 years ago to recognize marriage as being between a man and a woman,
and now my vote is thrown out by a liberal court. When the majority vote stops
meaning something, then what is the use of voting?
Frank | 4:34 p.m. June 26, 2008
Re: To Frank | 3:36 p.m.
Its quite possibly he did want to know, and possibly not. He may be face to face with the Lord and still not know right now. When I die, heaven help me if I should find myself face to face with my creator, "Is homosexuality determined at birth?" is not going to be the 1st or 100th question I'd ask.
I'm not an expert on revelation, far from it. But if I were to give my opinion it would be that there are things the Lord finds important for us (including his prophet) to know, stuff we have to act on now, and theres stuff we aren't ready for.
Its quite possibly he did want to know, and possibly not. He may be face to face with the Lord and still not know right now. When I die, heaven help me if I should find myself face to face with my creator, "Is homosexuality determined at birth?" is not going to be the 1st or 100th question I'd ask.
I'm not an expert on revelation, far from it. But if I were to give my opinion it would be that there are things the Lord finds important for us (including his prophet) to know, stuff we have to act on now, and theres stuff we aren't ready for.
Alex | 4:39 p.m. June 26, 2008
To "I just want peace"
"If only there were some inspired prophet or religion out there that could actually unite us--I'd join it in a heartbeat! "
Is it the job of a prophet to unite us, or is it rather our job to unite ourselves with the truth? Why do you even need an inspired prophet if his counsel is of no consequence anyway? After all, anything goes.
"If only there were some inspired prophet or religion out there that could actually unite us--I'd join it in a heartbeat! "
Is it the job of a prophet to unite us, or is it rather our job to unite ourselves with the truth? Why do you even need an inspired prophet if his counsel is of no consequence anyway? After all, anything goes.
Comments continue below
Our fault not his | 4:46 p.m. June 26, 2008
Re: I just want peace | 3:44 p.m.
Sorry "I just want peace" but not even the Son of god could pull that off.
Sorry "I just want peace" but not even the Son of god could pull that off.
re So Cal Resident | 4:54 p.m. June 26, 2008
The problem with the Amendment voted on 8 years was that it was found to be
Unconstitutional. As a California resident, you must also be aware that the
Legislature twice passed bills making same sex marriage legal, which the
Governor vetoed, saying it was a matter for the State Supreme Court to decide,
which they did.
Arthur | 5:14 p.m. June 26, 2008
Is the structure of marriage worth fighting over? The oldest organization on
earth? I hope so.
re: To Sarah 4:03 p.m.
1) No one has shown that it wont. 2) I have a traditional family, my fiancee has a traditional family, hopefully together we will have a traditional family. I guess all this is a matter of individual perspective and the history part is just as subjective.
re: To Sarah 4:03 p.m.
1) No one has shown that it wont. 2) I have a traditional family, my fiancee has a traditional family, hopefully together we will have a traditional family. I guess all this is a matter of individual perspective and the history part is just as subjective.
Steve - Re: So Cal Resident | 5:22 p.m. June 26, 2008
Good question. Why the focus on the LDS Church's involvement (because
it's Utah of course)? You say the Catholic Church is on the same side as
the LDS, surely other churches are as well. So I think it would be nice if our
local Utah media would run a story or two on the Catholic and other churches
involvements, then in any further stories mention them alongside the LDS...
rather than making it look like the LDS is the lone religious institution
stepping in.
Please do this Deseret News.
Please do this Deseret News.
To titleist 5 @ 3:32 | 6:35 p.m. June 26, 2008
You say "...if you do believe in God then you must accept his word..ALL OF
IT..." I think most Mormons believe in the Bible "as far as it is
translated correctly" not all that is written. Most religions can't
even agree on who is, and isn't, a prophet and what works are, or
aren't, scripture.
In the United States I think issues like same-sex marriage must be decided civilly, not religiously. Or are we going to start enforcing laws from the Bible about stoning disobedient kids and Sabbath breakers.
Just wish ALL the religions would stay out of this one.
In the United States I think issues like same-sex marriage must be decided civilly, not religiously. Or are we going to start enforcing laws from the Bible about stoning disobedient kids and Sabbath breakers.
Just wish ALL the religions would stay out of this one.
breeze | 7:29 p.m. June 26, 2008
Re: Clare - **As I have said before, "You cannot dictate to God his
commandments." If you choose not to obey those laws, then you are saying
you don't believe in the Bible. Satan is slowly chipping away at our moral
standards.
As a native Californian who ended up in Utah, I pray that my native state will make the right decision about this matter. I will always miss it, but if this passes, I'll miss it a lot less.**
You seem to contradict yourself - first saying we can't dictate to God his commandments but then saying you'll be disappointed if California doesn't pass this. Which is it?
As a native Californian who ended up in Utah, I pray that my native state will make the right decision about this matter. I will always miss it, but if this passes, I'll miss it a lot less.**
You seem to contradict yourself - first saying we can't dictate to God his commandments but then saying you'll be disappointed if California doesn't pass this. Which is it?
John Lambert | 10:17 p.m. June 26, 2008
To to Sarah,
What is your source for the quote from Elder Packer? Where can we look it up to verify that he really phrased it that way?
What is your source for the quote from Elder Packer? Where can we look it up to verify that he really phrased it that way?
John Lambert | 10:32 p.m. June 26, 2008
To the person who wishes to attack the President of the twelve,
Elder Packer was not attacking all intelectuals. What he was speaking against is those who allow intelectualism to displace their trust in the prophet.
Read 2 Nephi 9:28-29 to get a full image of the issue. Also, I once had a prophessor point out that some of the so called scholars who attack the church from within do not deserve the title.
Last of all, I doubt Elder Packer would care if you denigrated him as an apostle. You do not seem to believe that Elder Packer has a speacial witness of Jesus Christ, so why should he or anyone else care whether you hide your disbelief or express it? You have done so already, so doing it more often might just allow people to know that you need to recieve nourishing by the good word of God.
Elder Packer was not attacking all intelectuals. What he was speaking against is those who allow intelectualism to displace their trust in the prophet.
Read 2 Nephi 9:28-29 to get a full image of the issue. Also, I once had a prophessor point out that some of the so called scholars who attack the church from within do not deserve the title.
Last of all, I doubt Elder Packer would care if you denigrated him as an apostle. You do not seem to believe that Elder Packer has a speacial witness of Jesus Christ, so why should he or anyone else care whether you hide your disbelief or express it? You have done so already, so doing it more often might just allow people to know that you need to recieve nourishing by the good word of God.
John Lambert | 10:40 p.m. June 26, 2008
To to Frank,
Why should President Hinckley ask God what causes homosexuality? I believe that The Proclamation to the World on the Family is the reveled word of God. I do not think there is an issue here. The church is able to go to every nation, kindred tongue and people without accepting degrading actions. There is no long promised day when homosexuals will be able to practice perversions while holding the priesthood.
Beyond this, there are two other possibilities you did not consider. One is that President Hinckley did ask and plead with the Lord to recieve an answer on what caused homosexuality but was not given one or was told it was not to be revealed at this time. It is also vaguely possible that the Lord told him exactly why people are homosexual but not to reveal it.
What President Hinckley probably asked was what was the best way to help people overcome homosexuality. This is why the leaders of the church have come out with "God loveth his children".
Those of you who are looking for an Official Declaration three allowing people to practice perversion and hold the priesthood will keep waiting.
Why should President Hinckley ask God what causes homosexuality? I believe that The Proclamation to the World on the Family is the reveled word of God. I do not think there is an issue here. The church is able to go to every nation, kindred tongue and people without accepting degrading actions. There is no long promised day when homosexuals will be able to practice perversions while holding the priesthood.
Beyond this, there are two other possibilities you did not consider. One is that President Hinckley did ask and plead with the Lord to recieve an answer on what caused homosexuality but was not given one or was told it was not to be revealed at this time. It is also vaguely possible that the Lord told him exactly why people are homosexual but not to reveal it.
What President Hinckley probably asked was what was the best way to help people overcome homosexuality. This is why the leaders of the church have come out with "God loveth his children".
Those of you who are looking for an Official Declaration three allowing people to practice perversion and hold the priesthood will keep waiting.
John Lambert | 10:52 p.m. June 26, 2008
To what,
People say lots of stupid things about who should be shot. I think it is all wrong. Of course, some people think I take life too seriously.
However, this is not about gay bashing. Sometimes, especially here with only 200 words we may not be clear.
However, what we have issue with are those who want to try to change the basic rules of morality. Marriage is between a man and a woman.
It is not hateful to say such things. However it is now seen as hateful by the homosexual lobby.
Another problem is that when I talk about homosexuals I mean those who commit the acts. When I talk about the homosexual lobby I am talking about the people who march in parades.
Unlike some posters, I do not think that everyone who has ever felt homosexual tendencies is evil. I do not mock them. I also hate it when people assume that guys who know about fashion, or who are ballet dancers are gay. Our societies attempts to stereotype some people as gay makes my blood boil.
People say lots of stupid things about who should be shot. I think it is all wrong. Of course, some people think I take life too seriously.
However, this is not about gay bashing. Sometimes, especially here with only 200 words we may not be clear.
However, what we have issue with are those who want to try to change the basic rules of morality. Marriage is between a man and a woman.
It is not hateful to say such things. However it is now seen as hateful by the homosexual lobby.
Another problem is that when I talk about homosexuals I mean those who commit the acts. When I talk about the homosexual lobby I am talking about the people who march in parades.
Unlike some posters, I do not think that everyone who has ever felt homosexual tendencies is evil. I do not mock them. I also hate it when people assume that guys who know about fashion, or who are ballet dancers are gay. Our societies attempts to stereotype some people as gay makes my blood boil.
John Lambert | 10:58 p.m. June 26, 2008
To the 3:36 commentator,
How would knowing the exact cause of homosexual behavior solve anything. Also, if you think that making a statement about the need to support an admendment has caused people to rise up in anger, what would happen if President Hinckley had told us exactly what caused same-gender attraction.
Well, at least some people would claim it did not agree with the science on the matter, no matter what he said. Beyond this, since sciences ideas are by their very nature in flux and not dogmatic, it would at some point not agree with science and cause problems.
This issues you have brought up does not affect the churches stand. If you had asked Heber J. Grant what caused alchoholism he would have probably told you he did not know, but that would not have undermined his teaching against the use of alchohol as being the revealed word of God.
How would knowing the exact cause of homosexual behavior solve anything. Also, if you think that making a statement about the need to support an admendment has caused people to rise up in anger, what would happen if President Hinckley had told us exactly what caused same-gender attraction.
Well, at least some people would claim it did not agree with the science on the matter, no matter what he said. Beyond this, since sciences ideas are by their very nature in flux and not dogmatic, it would at some point not agree with science and cause problems.
This issues you have brought up does not affect the churches stand. If you had asked Heber J. Grant what caused alchoholism he would have probably told you he did not know, but that would not have undermined his teaching against the use of alchohol as being the revealed word of God.
John Lambert | 11:06 p.m. June 26, 2008
To Alex on what,
I am not sure that What has heard digs in any of those places either. It may have been while he was playing church basketball, at a ward social, sitting in the foyer at church before, after or during a meeting, or in many other cases.
I have known some people who would bring up the most irrelevant and off the wall comments in Sunday School though. Then there was the incident the Sunday before I got to my mission when an investigator in the middle of the hallway between classes at church yelled out that he did not believe the prohet was a prophet. Actually, I never got told the story, only heard the echoings of it, so I am not sure what the guy said. My point is that just because people say something in church does not mean that it is in anyway endorsed by the church.
I am not sure that What has heard digs in any of those places either. It may have been while he was playing church basketball, at a ward social, sitting in the foyer at church before, after or during a meeting, or in many other cases.
I have known some people who would bring up the most irrelevant and off the wall comments in Sunday School though. Then there was the incident the Sunday before I got to my mission when an investigator in the middle of the hallway between classes at church yelled out that he did not believe the prohet was a prophet. Actually, I never got told the story, only heard the echoings of it, so I am not sure what the guy said. My point is that just because people say something in church does not mean that it is in anyway endorsed by the church.
Jake | 12:32 a.m. June 27, 2008
I really don't see what the whole big deal is (regarding this article, not
the issue of gay marriage). The church issued a statement encouraging it's
members to exercise their civic duties and support an issue that they profess to
believe in as shown by their membership in the LDS Church. The church statement
was issued to it's own members, not to the Governor of California or the
California Supreme Court. This is not a case of the church meddling in
political affairs, but only one encouraging it's members to be good
citizens. I would think any church in this country would do the same, and
it's not too much to ask members to vote according to their beliefs.
Why? | 12:44 a.m. June 27, 2008
Why waste time blogging, go vote for what you believe!
hate to break it to ya... | 2:37 a.m. June 27, 2008
...but nobody who isn't Mormon cares what the LDS thinks about gay people.
Y'all are welcome to remain in your ghettos of hatefulness, that is your
right as Americans. But please don't think your hateful proclamations will
have any general effect. The LDS will only become more despised and mocked. Ask
Mitt what that feels like.
breeze | 7:47 a.m. June 27, 2008
Re: The real tragedy
**The Mormon promotion of anti-gay laws has not decreased the rates of divorce and infidelity--but it has increased the rate of Mormon suicides.
I keep hoping for more love and compassion from my Church, yet I'm afraid I will always remain disappointed.**
Any who commit suicide do it of their own choice. The LDS church's stance on anti-gay laws is one that seeks for decency & morality in society.
The church won't change it's stance to appease it's members as Gods laws are unchanging. You will remain disappointed if you ever expect them to do so.
**The Mormon promotion of anti-gay laws has not decreased the rates of divorce and infidelity--but it has increased the rate of Mormon suicides.
I keep hoping for more love and compassion from my Church, yet I'm afraid I will always remain disappointed.**
Any who commit suicide do it of their own choice. The LDS church's stance on anti-gay laws is one that seeks for decency & morality in society.
The church won't change it's stance to appease it's members as Gods laws are unchanging. You will remain disappointed if you ever expect them to do so.
breeze | 8:10 a.m. June 27, 2008
Re: Ten Commandments
**Isn't it interesting that the Ten Commandments don't have a word to say about homosexuality. Why do we treat it as though it's the worst sin anyone can commit?**
Pedophilia, rape, etc. are also not mentioned in the ten commandments but they are among the most grievous sins to God as is homosexuality.
**Isn't it interesting that the Ten Commandments don't have a word to say about homosexuality. Why do we treat it as though it's the worst sin anyone can commit?**
Pedophilia, rape, etc. are also not mentioned in the ten commandments but they are among the most grievous sins to God as is homosexuality.
Alex | 8:11 a.m. June 27, 2008
To "hate to break it to ya...":
"...but nobody who isn't Mormon cares what the LDS thinks about gay people. "
Tell that to the same-sex marriage proponents and the gays. Why are GLBT groups always trying to meet with the prophet to persuade him to change the church's long held position? Why are there over 500 comments on this article? Why the vitriol if nobody really cares? No, I'm not buying it.
"...but nobody who isn't Mormon cares what the LDS thinks about gay people. "
Tell that to the same-sex marriage proponents and the gays. Why are GLBT groups always trying to meet with the prophet to persuade him to change the church's long held position? Why are there over 500 comments on this article? Why the vitriol if nobody really cares? No, I'm not buying it.
breeze | 8:22 a.m. June 27, 2008
Re: Silly Mongoose
**Even the Church has adulterers and abusers.**
The LDS church has sinners just like any other religion or all of mankind but they need to repent of those sins the same as anyone else including those who practice the homosexual lifestyle/marry someone of the same gender.
**Even the Church has adulterers and abusers.**
The LDS church has sinners just like any other religion or all of mankind but they need to repent of those sins the same as anyone else including those who practice the homosexual lifestyle/marry someone of the same gender.
Welcome... | 8:30 a.m. June 27, 2008
�hate to break it to
ya�� is a prime example of what was
stated earlier that people will accuse the LDS church of hatred where none
exists.
So what we have here is generally decent people trying to follow the Lord who more and more are to be despised and mocked. Welcome to the �great and spacious building�.
And by the way, if nobody cares what the LDS think, why would they be despised and mocked? The very acts of despising and mocking indicate somebody cares enough to attempt to counter the influence of the LDS people, wouldn�t you think?
So what we have here is generally decent people trying to follow the Lord who more and more are to be despised and mocked. Welcome to the �great and spacious building�.
And by the way, if nobody cares what the LDS think, why would they be despised and mocked? The very acts of despising and mocking indicate somebody cares enough to attempt to counter the influence of the LDS people, wouldn�t you think?
breeze | 8:34 a.m. June 27, 2008
Re: I'm worried
**I already see this problem with my young nieces and nephews. Over half of them have left the Church mainly because of the stigma they feel that comes along with being a member. Instead of being an organization they feel "proud" to belong to, I'm afraid they now feel ashamed.**
It was their own choice, no one else's, that they left the church. Any stigma they felt was because their faith was weak...they are obviously much more concerned about what the world thinks of them than the Lord. The only shame is that they sought the opinions of men over that of God's.
**I already see this problem with my young nieces and nephews. Over half of them have left the Church mainly because of the stigma they feel that comes along with being a member. Instead of being an organization they feel "proud" to belong to, I'm afraid they now feel ashamed.**
It was their own choice, no one else's, that they left the church. Any stigma they felt was because their faith was weak...they are obviously much more concerned about what the world thinks of them than the Lord. The only shame is that they sought the opinions of men over that of God's.
breeze | 8:49 a.m. June 27, 2008
**If its "all about the children" then STOP SMOKERS FROM GETTING
MARRIED. Children of smokers are twice as likely to pick up this "lifestyle
choice" as children of non-smokers. Something that kills 400,000 Americans
every year. Yet I don't hear a peep from anyone demanding a law against
letting smokers get married.**
Lame comparison - smoking can harm others but it doesn't corrupt societies like perversions such as homosexuality do.
**We'll let alcoholics, pedophiles, rapists, drug dealers and convicted murders get married. NO ONE is out demanding they be prohibited from getting married. Can anyone show me one sane reason why any of these would be LESS of a threat to children than a gay couple?**
Of course not - they're all a threat to children including the gay lifestyle. Let's turn that around and say let's just forget any kind of laws & let everyone do what they please i.e. be pedophiles, homosexuals, rapists, drug dealers and murders. Who cares what they do...let's just live & let live...everyone should be able to choose without consequences to them or anyone else, right? WRONG!
Lame comparison - smoking can harm others but it doesn't corrupt societies like perversions such as homosexuality do.
**We'll let alcoholics, pedophiles, rapists, drug dealers and convicted murders get married. NO ONE is out demanding they be prohibited from getting married. Can anyone show me one sane reason why any of these would be LESS of a threat to children than a gay couple?**
Of course not - they're all a threat to children including the gay lifestyle. Let's turn that around and say let's just forget any kind of laws & let everyone do what they please i.e. be pedophiles, homosexuals, rapists, drug dealers and murders. Who cares what they do...let's just live & let live...everyone should be able to choose without consequences to them or anyone else, right? WRONG!
11 pages of comments | 9:26 a.m. June 27, 2008
And all of it is just repeating the same thing over and over. I think the only
thing to have happened is a bigger divide has been created, more bigotry towards
each other on BOTH sides. What a waste. Why hasbn't someone tried to find
a workable compromise instead of acting like politicians and point fingers at
the other guy?
re Breeze.... | 9:27 a.m. June 27, 2008
So you ARE comparing gay people to the absolute bottom of society, on par with
Murderers, Rapists, Pedophiles and Drug Dealers? Fortunately, most people in
this country don't. Thank you,however, for strengthening the thesis I have
regarding Religious Extremists in this country.
Alex | 10:01 a.m. June 27, 2008
To "11 pages of comments":
"Why hasbn't someone tried to find a workable compromise instead of acting like politicians and point fingers at the other guy? "
What kind of a compromise did you have in mind? In my view, the two views are irreconcilable. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.
"Why hasbn't someone tried to find a workable compromise instead of acting like politicians and point fingers at the other guy? "
What kind of a compromise did you have in mind? In my view, the two views are irreconcilable. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.
breeze | 10:07 a.m. June 27, 2008
Re: New revelation will come:
No new revelation will ever come condoning the gay lifestyle as God's laws are unchanging, period.
Any who choose to embrace the gay lifestyle & allows it to break up their marriage is on them & them alone. And if they choose to drink themselves into oblivion or end their life, that's also theirs to bear alone as a consequence of their sinful choices/lifestyle...same as anyone has to bear the consequences of their sins.
The dark days will come to this country as a result of more & more embracing those things which mock God/pervert his ways i.e. the gay lifestyle.
No new revelation will ever come condoning the gay lifestyle as God's laws are unchanging, period.
Any who choose to embrace the gay lifestyle & allows it to break up their marriage is on them & them alone. And if they choose to drink themselves into oblivion or end their life, that's also theirs to bear alone as a consequence of their sinful choices/lifestyle...same as anyone has to bear the consequences of their sins.
The dark days will come to this country as a result of more & more embracing those things which mock God/pervert his ways i.e. the gay lifestyle.
To 11 pages: | 10:20 a.m. June 27, 2008
Compromise is foreign to the LDS, which wants to impose its values on the 98.3%
of Americans who are not Mormon.
The Mormon gay-bashing amendment will be defeated in California. Within 20-30 years, the LDS will try to wiggle out of its present position via a new revelation. Thus is was with polygamy, blacks in the priesthood, and now gays.
The Mormon gay-bashing amendment will be defeated in California. Within 20-30 years, the LDS will try to wiggle out of its present position via a new revelation. Thus is was with polygamy, blacks in the priesthood, and now gays.
re: Breeze | 11:30 a.m. June 27, 2008
"No new revelation will ever come condoning the gay lifestyle as God's
laws are unchanging, period."
Funny how his dietary restrictions completely changed 2000 years ago.
Were you aware that the Word of Wisdom was initially NOT a commandment, but rather just advice?
Funny how his dietary restrictions completely changed 2000 years ago.
Were you aware that the Word of Wisdom was initially NOT a commandment, but rather just advice?
breeze | 11:31 a.m. June 27, 2008
**"How great the goodness of our God who set up familial units to have a
mother and a father!"
He didn't. Learn some history. During most of "traditional" society, your average marriage lasted about eleven years before one member of the couple was DEAD, usually the woman through childbirth. Thats how "God/nature" made human society and mankind has been desperately trying to improve the crappy product.**
What's death got to do with the quality of a marriage? Sinful, selfish humans can never make any improvements over what God has made...pretty arrogant statement.
He didn't. Learn some history. During most of "traditional" society, your average marriage lasted about eleven years before one member of the couple was DEAD, usually the woman through childbirth. Thats how "God/nature" made human society and mankind has been desperately trying to improve the crappy product.**
What's death got to do with the quality of a marriage? Sinful, selfish humans can never make any improvements over what God has made...pretty arrogant statement.
jfb | 11:57 a.m. June 27, 2008
I sometimes wonder why we LDS are so one dimensional on social issues. We, like
the evangelicals, can never see past the issues of abortion and homosexuality to
the real issues Jesus raised in the Sermon on the Mount and his other teachings:
poverty, war, greed, materialism hatred of your neighbor. With millions of
people in our own country unable to properly feed themselves or receive decent
medical care why are we so focused on these issues?
breeze | 12:03 p.m. June 27, 2008
Re: Liberation or enslavement?:
"If a hunger for liberation destroys morality then immorality will destroy liberty...."
Whoever wrote this back on June 24th, I love it!
"If a hunger for liberation destroys morality then immorality will destroy liberty...."
Whoever wrote this back on June 24th, I love it!
breeze | 12:19 p.m. June 27, 2008
Re: Hypocritical...again:
*Think about what might have happened if they encouraged their members to do all they could to stop poverty, racism, bigotry, helping those who REALLY need a hand especially now and all the other social ills that are the REAL threats to our country. Aren't there a couple verses in the same bible that cover doing just that? What? Nobody wants to acknowledge those?*
We (LDS) are encrouged to help others all the time - we do & the church is always going to others' aid here & abroad.
*Gay marriage is a nice distration from the REAL issues that are destroying our country. It's the magician's assistant. It distracts you from what is going on behind the scenes until it's too late to notice you've been duped.*
Gay marriage IS among the issues that will bring this country down to it's knees - literally. America will answer for acceptance of such perversions as we're beginning to see with all the commotion & turmoil going on in this country/the world. The only ones being duped are those who reject & trample on God's laws.
*Think about what might have happened if they encouraged their members to do all they could to stop poverty, racism, bigotry, helping those who REALLY need a hand especially now and all the other social ills that are the REAL threats to our country. Aren't there a couple verses in the same bible that cover doing just that? What? Nobody wants to acknowledge those?*
We (LDS) are encrouged to help others all the time - we do & the church is always going to others' aid here & abroad.
*Gay marriage is a nice distration from the REAL issues that are destroying our country. It's the magician's assistant. It distracts you from what is going on behind the scenes until it's too late to notice you've been duped.*
Gay marriage IS among the issues that will bring this country down to it's knees - literally. America will answer for acceptance of such perversions as we're beginning to see with all the commotion & turmoil going on in this country/the world. The only ones being duped are those who reject & trample on God's laws.
breeze | 12:19 p.m. June 27, 2008
Re: to lakers:
*The fires are mainly in areas where Conservatives live. They are the Republican strongholds of the state. No West Hollywood fires or San Francisco fires. Interesting...*
They'll get their turns in one way or another as God will avenge all of their sins regardless of if they're Christian or not.
*The fires are mainly in areas where Conservatives live. They are the Republican strongholds of the state. No West Hollywood fires or San Francisco fires. Interesting...*
They'll get their turns in one way or another as God will avenge all of their sins regardless of if they're Christian or not.
breeze | 12:43 p.m. June 27, 2008
Re: Homosexuals:
*The new boogey man, scape goat, excuse for all the wrongs in our society.
So much easier to just blame others for whats wrong than to accept our part (i.e. who you voted for time and again because of the letter beside their name) in the way society is heading.*
Oh, yeah, poor gays, everyone blames them for all of societies ills. Nonsense, they just like to shift blame to everyone & everything else because they can't accept responsibililty for their sinful, perverse actions/choices.
*The new boogey man, scape goat, excuse for all the wrongs in our society.
So much easier to just blame others for whats wrong than to accept our part (i.e. who you voted for time and again because of the letter beside their name) in the way society is heading.*
Oh, yeah, poor gays, everyone blames them for all of societies ills. Nonsense, they just like to shift blame to everyone & everything else because they can't accept responsibililty for their sinful, perverse actions/choices.
Lot of conversion opportunity | 1:28 p.m. June 27, 2008
Yup! This Sunday when lots of non-Mormons will be attending their local
chapels.
Alex | 1:37 p.m. June 27, 2008
To "Lot of conversion opportunity":
"Yup! This Sunday when lots of non-Mormons will be attending their local chapels. "
A rather unusual opportunity to share the gospel, don't you think? I'll take it. ;)
"Yup! This Sunday when lots of non-Mormons will be attending their local chapels. "
A rather unusual opportunity to share the gospel, don't you think? I'll take it. ;)
Re: John Lambert | 3:00 p.m. June 27, 2008
I commend you for defending your church and your faith and their stand on
homosexulity. That said, if you go back and read the pamplet used by Priesthood
leaders when the church started having a policy they blamed the parents, then
they changed that and blamed causual circumstances. Then they advised the men
to get married and procreate and that would solve their problems. Then when
that did not work they reccommended that you not get married, but do so if you
are competely sure you can control yourself.
How much more confusing can it get all these changes in policy. I guess is it good they can have standardized doctrines that "never change" just the interpretation of said doctrines and then policies they can change when the fancy strikes them that way they become somehow infalable. I also find it interesting that church members just go along with these policy changes no questions asked.
Which begs the question why should we listen to a church that can't even figure what to do and has ever changing policy in regards to homosexuality.
How much more confusing can it get all these changes in policy. I guess is it good they can have standardized doctrines that "never change" just the interpretation of said doctrines and then policies they can change when the fancy strikes them that way they become somehow infalable. I also find it interesting that church members just go along with these policy changes no questions asked.
Which begs the question why should we listen to a church that can't even figure what to do and has ever changing policy in regards to homosexuality.
to Alex | 3:08 p.m. June 27, 2008
Good for you! But this may be a case where your bigoted church's actions
speak louder than their BOM words.
Does any of this matter? | 3:37 p.m. June 27, 2008
It really doesn't matter, does it? It honestly doesn't make one bit
of difference. If someone were to revoke my marriage license right this minute,
I'd still live my life exactly as I am. I'd still stay with my
husband and kids. And if anyone ever tried to keep me away from my
husband's hospital bedside--I'd climb right through the roof, or a
window, or whatever it took, to get to him.
No law that is ever enacted or revoked could really make a difference to me.
No law that is ever enacted or revoked could really make a difference to me.
John Lambert | 4:04 p.m. June 27, 2008
The church has always clearly taught that homosexual behavior is wrong. The
various forms of advice on how to overcome it have varied. However we must
accept that this advice is meant to be applied to the individual person and the
various societal pressures involved change.
The advice on how to overcome homosexual behavior is only that, advice. The basic doctrine that homosexual behavior is wrong does not change.
The advice on how to overcome homosexual behavior is only that, advice. The basic doctrine that homosexual behavior is wrong does not change.
To: to Alex 3:08 | 4:17 p.m. June 27, 2008
Check out the messages in this string and then tell me who the bigots are, who
the name-callers are, and who are promising real, invasive threats.
If you don't agree with the gay/lesbian lobby, they will seek to shout you down. Freedom of speech? Sure, as long as you agree with them.
If you don't want people to fear you, then quit threatening them.
I have never seen as much love as I have witnessed in my experiences in the LDS Church - and this includes toward individuals with same-sex attraction.
If you don't agree with the gay/lesbian lobby, they will seek to shout you down. Freedom of speech? Sure, as long as you agree with them.
If you don't want people to fear you, then quit threatening them.
I have never seen as much love as I have witnessed in my experiences in the LDS Church - and this includes toward individuals with same-sex attraction.
interesting co-sponsor | 4:24 p.m. June 27, 2008
It's very, very unlikely to pass, but the Federal Marriage Amendment has
just been reintroduced in the Senate.
If the FMA is enacted, an amendment would be added to the U.S. Constitution that would read, in part:
Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman.
Out of the 10 senators sponsoring the bill, two names stand out -- Larry Craig, R-Idaho, and David Vitter, R-La. Craig, of course, is the man who became infamous for his arrest on charges that he tried to solicit another man for sex in an airport bathroom. Afterward, other men came forward to say they'd had sexual relations with him.
If the FMA is enacted, an amendment would be added to the U.S. Constitution that would read, in part:
Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution, nor the constitution of any State, shall be construed to require that marriage or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon any union other than the union of a man and a woman.
Out of the 10 senators sponsoring the bill, two names stand out -- Larry Craig, R-Idaho, and David Vitter, R-La. Craig, of course, is the man who became infamous for his arrest on charges that he tried to solicit another man for sex in an airport bathroom. Afterward, other men came forward to say they'd had sexual relations with him.
what the ...? | 5:10 p.m. June 27, 2008
Isn't Larry Craig a member of the LDS church?
What is an admitted gay person doing as a co-sponsor for the Federal Marriage Amendment? Blowing a smokescreen?
What is an admitted gay person doing as a co-sponsor for the Federal Marriage Amendment? Blowing a smokescreen?
love for sure | 6:43 p.m. June 27, 2008
@ To: to Alex 3:08 | 4:17
I'm guessing you don't consider "relocation" a threat to those supporting same sex marriage. It was called for and seconded by several on this topic thread. Scary and threatening that people see that as a way to close discussion they no longer want to hear. Scarier still that you don't view it as a threat.
My guess is most people read comments with which they agree with the voice in their head being soft-spoken and reasonable sounding while that voice changes to shrill, foaming vitriol as they read the opinions they don't agree with no matter the intent or reasonableness with which they were written. Written dialogue does have its drawbacks.
I'm guessing you don't consider "relocation" a threat to those supporting same sex marriage. It was called for and seconded by several on this topic thread. Scary and threatening that people see that as a way to close discussion they no longer want to hear. Scarier still that you don't view it as a threat.
My guess is most people read comments with which they agree with the voice in their head being soft-spoken and reasonable sounding while that voice changes to shrill, foaming vitriol as they read the opinions they don't agree with no matter the intent or reasonableness with which they were written. Written dialogue does have its drawbacks.
Alex | 11:16 p.m. June 27, 2008
To "to Alex":
"Good for you! But this may be a case where your bigoted church's actions speak louder than their BOM words. "
I don't know how you can believe that my views are any different from the First Presidency. In case you haven't read my posts, I am a Mormon's Mormon. Everything that the church leaders teach urges me to act in a way so as to share the gospel I've received with whomever with kindness and love.
I want the gays in the church as much as I want anybody else. However, mankind is not saved by the Lord IN their sins, but rather from their sins. That means that the adulterer must abandon his adultery and a homosexual must abandon his homosexual relations. These are basic. Once the homosexual in diligence and faith on the Lord Jesus turns away from that sin, the Lord can begin to make that man or woman into a new creature. That person is baptized, and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion. By diligence and faith, over time a person develops a power over the temptations through the power of the Lord. The change is possible.
"Good for you! But this may be a case where your bigoted church's actions speak louder than their BOM words. "
I don't know how you can believe that my views are any different from the First Presidency. In case you haven't read my posts, I am a Mormon's Mormon. Everything that the church leaders teach urges me to act in a way so as to share the gospel I've received with whomever with kindness and love.
I want the gays in the church as much as I want anybody else. However, mankind is not saved by the Lord IN their sins, but rather from their sins. That means that the adulterer must abandon his adultery and a homosexual must abandon his homosexual relations. These are basic. Once the homosexual in diligence and faith on the Lord Jesus turns away from that sin, the Lord can begin to make that man or woman into a new creature. That person is baptized, and receives the gift of the Holy Ghost as a constant companion. By diligence and faith, over time a person develops a power over the temptations through the power of the Lord. The change is possible.
re: John Lambert | 4:04 p.m. | 12:35 a.m. June 28, 2008
"The church has always clearly taught that homosexual behavior is
wrong."
Yet no one has ever been able to JUSTIFY this teaching. All I've seen in the church and even in this discussion here is scaremongering without a shred of supporting evidence.
Yet no one has ever been able to JUSTIFY this teaching. All I've seen in the church and even in this discussion here is scaremongering without a shred of supporting evidence.
To: love for sure | 6:43 | 9:43 a.m. June 28, 2008
Your comments about written dialogue and how each "hears" opinions
similar to his/her own are very true.
However, I don't interpret a suggestion of a relocation program as a serious threat. It has no chance of ever occurring and I've never seen someone so disposed ever do anything about it or disrupt pro-gay gatherings.
On the other hand, threats about introducing legislation and putting in laws and policies to limit religious practice are happening as we speak. See the reference to the Mormon girl in Santa Rosa, Cal who was harrassed about her religion and responded with the flippant "that's so gay" to her harranguers. She was put on probation and the aggressors suffered nothing. Notice if an ex-gay or person who does not conform to the gay-approved agenda is publicized as a speaker on a university campus, and how that person is shouted down and continuously interrupted while speaking by pro-gay hecklers. Look at some gay-affirming countries who have outlawed churches teaching that the gay lifestyle is wrong. These are where the real threats exist because they are being carried out before our eyes.
Yes, written dialogue has its limitations. However, my eyes and ears are capable of observation.
However, I don't interpret a suggestion of a relocation program as a serious threat. It has no chance of ever occurring and I've never seen someone so disposed ever do anything about it or disrupt pro-gay gatherings.
On the other hand, threats about introducing legislation and putting in laws and policies to limit religious practice are happening as we speak. See the reference to the Mormon girl in Santa Rosa, Cal who was harrassed about her religion and responded with the flippant "that's so gay" to her harranguers. She was put on probation and the aggressors suffered nothing. Notice if an ex-gay or person who does not conform to the gay-approved agenda is publicized as a speaker on a university campus, and how that person is shouted down and continuously interrupted while speaking by pro-gay hecklers. Look at some gay-affirming countries who have outlawed churches teaching that the gay lifestyle is wrong. These are where the real threats exist because they are being carried out before our eyes.
Yes, written dialogue has its limitations. However, my eyes and ears are capable of observation.
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