Deseret News | Reader comments: Skill-test failures frustrate lawmakers

Reader comments
Skill-test failures frustrate lawmakers

Oak | 5:23 a.m. June 19, 2008

Contrast 20% of our students not passing the UBSCT test to Singapore where 0.2% don't pass their high stakes test which has pretty challenging problems. That's a 100x factor. Singapore math is doing something very right and it would behoove Utah to adopt it and get on track.

Anonymous | 6:04 a.m. June 19, 2008

The test is a complete joke.

Anonymous | 6:04 a.m. June 19, 2008

What do you want when you have the lowest funded education system in the whole country?

Comments continue below

Who'd have thought | 7:42 a.m. June 19, 2008

Wasn't it just a few years back when almost half the legislators failed the UBSCT? Now 20% of graduating seniors can't pass the test, which group has better reading, writing and math skills? Who would have guessed that students with a learning disability could not pass? Big surprise that Hispanic students could not pass a reading and writing test in their second language. How many of our legislators are bi-lingual and what excuse do they have for not passing? We could educate only the best and brightest like other nations, but we educate all children, preparing them to function in our democracy. It looks like time for our legislators to spend their time finding ways to fund education, rather than micro-manage schools.

sob | 8:02 a.m. June 19, 2008

perhaps one of the test should be to have the testee be able to speak three sentences with out saying "like" ten times.

Very Symptomatic | 8:24 a.m. June 19, 2008

This story highlight exactly what is wrong with Utah schools. The legislature keeps piling on more and more regulations as they continue to strangle public ed. If the parents in a particular district (or even at a particular school) think the non-passers should not get a diploma, they have the power to make that happen. As the legislature continues to pull more and more power to itself, less and less power stays at the school where the parents can wield it.

Singapore math not a panacea | 8:30 a.m. June 19, 2008

Oak is misrepresenting the facts. Singapore uses "tracking" - from an early age only the brightest students get to attend the best schools. Struggling students do not even take the test. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

educrat | 9:46 a.m. June 19, 2008

The test is an eighth grade level test. It should be given earlier than it is and students held back and have to repeat classes that they have not mastered. I find what was said about the legislature not being able to all pass the tests either. I say if that were true, our kids who couldn't pass the test will have a perfect job in government after they leave High School.

Special ed. should be taking a wholly different test than the UBSCT. It is discriminatory to these kids and likely federal law (IDEA) if our State holds Special needs kids to the same criteria as able kids.

Anonymous | 11:11 a.m. June 19, 2008

Oak is back making crazy comparisons.

Go to Singapore and test the poor kids that don't get into the "advanced" track.

Oh they don't include them in their test data?

They don't even take the test?

So maybe we should compare our top 10% as well?

That is what I thought.

Next thing you know someone will claim vouchers and charter schools will clear up the public ed problem...

carol | 11:23 a.m. June 19, 2008

The State Board of Education DOES NOT give diplomas--local school boards/districts do. Currently State law allows students to earn/receive diplomas from schools and districts if the students do not pass UBSCT, with a notation on the diploma and transcript that student DID NOT pass UBSCT. The legislature has not had support, in the past, for a standard that denies diplomas to students based on one test. It is important to note that other states that have high stakes test DO HAVE an alternative process (to passing one test) for a student to prove his competency and still earn a diploma. The education community has supported this option for years; though it puts a significant burden on schools at a busy time of year, it DOES SERVE the individual student best.

Singapore | 3:51 p.m. June 19, 2008

Move your kids to Singapore if you don't like education here.

Oak | 10:15 p.m. June 19, 2008

Obviously those of you dissing Singapore have no clue what you're talking about. I attended the meeting last week when Dr. Yeap Ban Har was here from Singapore and told educators exactly what is happening in their country. Through 6th grade when their high stakes test is given, EVERY child in public education takes this test. EVERY student, not just the bright ones. The children there also only do an hour of homework a night dispelling the myth that all they do is study. They have plenty of extracurricular things to keep them busy and enjoy childhood.

I see anonymous is also ignorant of the TIMSS exam which is the international test measuring a FULL cross-section of the population in countries taking the exam. In Singapore at 8th grade, 42% of the children are at an advanced mathematical comprehension while 7% of the U.S. population reaches that top level.

As for "Oak is misrepresenting the facts" and that Singapore tracks the kids, ask Patti Harrington the state superintendent who was also at the meeting and you'll know who has their facts straight.

Parent | 11:38 p.m. June 19, 2008

I don't know why people like "Oak" think Singapore math is going to suddenly create exceptional math students here- only 30% of Utahns graduate from college and the universities here (including BYU) are not exceptional at all. They aren't even in the top 50 in the country. University experience is what counts - the states with the best universities have the best k-12 education (Michigan, Virginia) and they don't use Singapore math. It's all about the attitude toward education and that begins at home, with parents who value quality education over church (gasp!), sports, etc. Utah needs to get rid of people like Stephenson and put well-educated, intelligent men and women in charge of education in this state.

Oak | 6:08 a.m. June 20, 2008

It's not suddenly going to create exceptional students, but it's going to give us a boost at all levels. Utah has to hire 44,000 new teachers during the next decade (D.News article around 2/1/06) and they're being indoctrinated by colleges in constructivism and we're using exceptionally weak programs to teach with. This will continue the downward slide unless we make changes for stronger standards, better assessments, and stronger curriculum.

Math is the foundation for logical thinking. If you disagree then you disagree, but I'm passionate about Utah getting math right and having our kids be the best thinkers available.

Is a 20% no pass rate on the UBSCT working for you? Money wonï¿½t solve this problem because the roots are bad. If you've never looked at Singapore math to see why it's so effective, do some research. Google 'Oak Norton' and you'll find my site. Click into the Singapore math meeting at the top and read the extra resources I've got there. Watch the Investigations video a little ways down on my homepage. If that doesnï¿½t turn your stomach... Itï¿½s destroyed thousands of lives in Alpine district, disenfranchising students forever from entering math and the sciences.

re Singapore math not a panacea | 7:04 a.m. June 20, 2008

re Singapore math not a panacea | 8:30 a.m.

This is so untrue. Singapore takes very good care of all the students, Gifted and struggling.

They offer remedial classes to students who need it. They give an A for 75%. This allows the teacher to instruct and test the most gifted along with the rest without hurting the grades of the less able.

They are really smart in the way they teach math. Rather than adopt the "it isn't invented here attitude", let us adopt best practices from where ever. This is what has helped to make America Great.

Curtis Blanco

Singapore Math | 7:27 a.m. June 20, 2008

Please educators, adoption of Singapore Math is not a slap against you, please don't take it that way. It is the worlds most successful method of teaching math to grade schoolers.

If this were adopted, it would make you as well as all of Utah shine.

The people of Utah supported you when it came to vouchers. Can we ask for a return of the favor, that you support the best education for our kids?

Teacher | 7:39 a.m. June 20, 2008

Parent,
Please take some time and personally get to know Mr. Stephenson. He may not be in your political camp, but he is well-educated, intelligent and clear thinking.

Parent of Children | 8:41 a.m. June 20, 2008

As a parent of a few children I am grateful that there are those that are willing to step 'out of the box' in trying create/design/adopt a better math curriculum. For too long we, parents and populace alike, have vacated our responsibilities towards our children's education only to have failures all around. To those who are fighting for a better curriculum FIGHT ON!

Now, for you who are bothered by this, what are you going to do? Whine as usual because this takes you out of your comfort zone? I would think that if you are really for the proper education of our children then you would welcome the desire for a better education. I would think that if you are fully vested in your children's education then you would notice that our ACT scores seem to be dropping while our children's grades are somewhat high. Why aren't you asking about this problem? What are you going to do that is different from the norms that enable our children to succeed?

Mr Stephenson, A better Way | 9:31 a.m. June 20, 2008

Senator Stephenson

I am grateful for your efforts to improve math education. One suggestion though.

The effort to fight to deny diplomas to students who can't pass the test would be much improved if this effort were instead one of, --- lets provide remedial education opportunities after school or during the summer where volunteers and/or professionals can help the struggling students, so that when these students finally come up to speed then can then get their diploma.

This approach would solve the problem, rather than just report the problem, and help real lives and future families in the process. Also there should not be a limit as to how many times a person can take the test. So long as a person is willing to try, we should be willing to accept their trying.

************
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world ,
indeed it is the only thing that ever has. ï¿½ Margaret Mead

A Parent | 2:49 p.m. June 20, 2008

To 9:31, just to make you aware, the ASD has started the Summer Extended Year program for just the issue of remediation and for acceleration. This is in conjunction with our legislators including Mr. Stephenson. Is there a solution with this new program? It is a new and fledgling program but if you are aware, there are 800 students that have signed up for one more classes.... A great start if you ask me...

Mike | 10:57 a.m. June 21, 2008

Students will never improve their performance as long as they are not accountable. If they do not pass the tests they should not receive a diploma of any kind. I believe that was the original intent of the testing process. However school districts seem to be afraid of law suits brought by parents who think that the failure of their student is the fault of the school. The breakdown in the educational process usually lies with the student and the parent. Most students fail because they miss too much school or do not do the work or both. Why are the parents not more involved. A phone call to the school the last week of the quarter or two days before graduation is usually too late. Then the school or teacher becomes the bad guy because they are not willing to "work with"
the student or parent. The system is not working as
well as it could because all the stakeholders are not doing their part.

Anonymous | 1:31 p.m. June 21, 2008

As long as we have Mexico pushing their poor into this country and expecting us to foot the bill to educate them our standards and pocketbooks will be weak. Most of you are missing one of the main causes to poor academic standards, and that is the huge amount of money and time needed to bring the illegals anchor babies up to speed when they couldn't care less about learning our language, more or less anything else. Look at California, where they spend 40% of their budget on education, (over 40 billion) and over half of the anchor babies drop out before graduating. That's a great deal of taxpayer money spent with very little return. The US cannot educate the world on our tax dollars, especially Mexico which is the third richest country in the Americas. Utah is not alone in this problem, but until you face where it begins and stop being so politically correct with your approach you will continue to be spinning your wheels over a solution. Just start focusing on the country's illegal problem and you will understand every state is facing education problems, especially those close to the border.

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