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Gay couples in Utah urged not to sue
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John Lambert | 1:13 p.m. June 19, 2008
I think the most uncalled for comments were the accusations that those who
have ever wondered about their sexuality are closet homosexuals who need to
embrace their orientation.
The only comments that seem to deney free will and the right to chose are these. People who have dealt with homosexual attractions and fealings and overcome them have gone through a struggle and won. Would you be so flippant towards people who admit they overcame drinking, pornography, drug addiction or other degrading and unhealthy habbits.
I am also tired of the attempts to psychoanalyze those who are defending the truth.
Some people in favor of traditional marriage may have said things here and certainly have elsewhere said things that were unkind, mean spirited and lacked understanding.
However to ignore the structural conditions that encorage homosexual feelings at some times, and to act as if anyone who has ever struggled with homosexual feelings is a closet homosexual is to deney people the right to chose their own actions. People can overcome their backgrounds and tendencies. It is not easy, and they do not need your snyde and cutting remarks.
The only comments that seem to deney free will and the right to chose are these. People who have dealt with homosexual attractions and fealings and overcome them have gone through a struggle and won. Would you be so flippant towards people who admit they overcame drinking, pornography, drug addiction or other degrading and unhealthy habbits.
I am also tired of the attempts to psychoanalyze those who are defending the truth.
Some people in favor of traditional marriage may have said things here and certainly have elsewhere said things that were unkind, mean spirited and lacked understanding.
However to ignore the structural conditions that encorage homosexual feelings at some times, and to act as if anyone who has ever struggled with homosexual feelings is a closet homosexual is to deney people the right to chose their own actions. People can overcome their backgrounds and tendencies. It is not easy, and they do not need your snyde and cutting remarks.
karma | 1:14 p.m. June 19, 2008
Those who express outspoken hatred for any group of people get hated in
return.
It's the universal law of karma.
It's the universal law of karma.
Comments continue below
John Lambert | 1:22 p.m. June 19, 2008
If we accept that sexual orientation is a right that must be protected, will
it not then be argued that any organization that does not grant certain rights
or priveleges based on sexual-orentation is discriminatory?
In this sense, making same-sex marriage legal is not inherently an attack on other measures. The issue is really the fact that California's supreme court invalidated a law based on equal protection grounds. This method does in fact in theory open up many other practices to suits, no matter how much people claim we are paranoid.
In this sense, making same-sex marriage legal is not inherently an attack on other measures. The issue is really the fact that California's supreme court invalidated a law based on equal protection grounds. This method does in fact in theory open up many other practices to suits, no matter how much people claim we are paranoid.
YBU | 1:22 p.m. June 19, 2008
John,
I know that Mormons seem to have a persecution complex, but you take it to an extreme. Idaho banned Mormons from voting because the leaders told them who to vote for and they voted as a block.
Yes, homosexuals have been thrown in jail. Yes, they have been dragged out of bed and beaten. Yes, people have been killed just because they were homosexual. Why in the 1950's, some states passed laws that wearing men's clothing was illegal and raided lesbian clubs and arrested them for that horrible crime.
Maybe we have not had an extermination order placed against us, but many of us have been shunned and discriminated against in our jobs, churches, housing, and even just buying a car!
I know that Mormons seem to have a persecution complex, but you take it to an extreme. Idaho banned Mormons from voting because the leaders told them who to vote for and they voted as a block.
Yes, homosexuals have been thrown in jail. Yes, they have been dragged out of bed and beaten. Yes, people have been killed just because they were homosexual. Why in the 1950's, some states passed laws that wearing men's clothing was illegal and raided lesbian clubs and arrested them for that horrible crime.
Maybe we have not had an extermination order placed against us, but many of us have been shunned and discriminated against in our jobs, churches, housing, and even just buying a car!
John Lambert | 1:31 p.m. June 19, 2008
To YBU:
YOu err, not knowing history. Mayland passed its laws against inter-racial marriage because so many white women had married black men. Then when they included a clause that made it so a white woman who married a black man who was a slave would remain a slave as long as her husband was alive and a slave, many owners of white indentured servants manipulated the situation to get their white female indentured servants to marry black male slaves.
If you read through 19th and early 20th century anti-interracial marriage rhetoric you will see that in some circles there was mass fear of white women marrying black men.
Also, you seem to know nothing of inter-racial marriage in colonial Louisiana, quadroon balls and the fact that Mr. Plessy was an octroon, that is to say he was only one eighth black. In fact he purposefully turned himself in to get the segragation law overturned. He was not trying to ride the white cars of the trian for his own good, but for the greater good.
Your analogy does not hold water, and your knowledge of history is lacking.
YOu err, not knowing history. Mayland passed its laws against inter-racial marriage because so many white women had married black men. Then when they included a clause that made it so a white woman who married a black man who was a slave would remain a slave as long as her husband was alive and a slave, many owners of white indentured servants manipulated the situation to get their white female indentured servants to marry black male slaves.
If you read through 19th and early 20th century anti-interracial marriage rhetoric you will see that in some circles there was mass fear of white women marrying black men.
Also, you seem to know nothing of inter-racial marriage in colonial Louisiana, quadroon balls and the fact that Mr. Plessy was an octroon, that is to say he was only one eighth black. In fact he purposefully turned himself in to get the segragation law overturned. He was not trying to ride the white cars of the trian for his own good, but for the greater good.
Your analogy does not hold water, and your knowledge of history is lacking.
YBU | 1:32 p.m. June 19, 2008
"To suggest that we are breaking the law by advocating that existing laws remain intact is one of the most bizarre accusations I have ever read."
Why then are we all jumping through hoops to pass the defination of marriage acts and states' passing constitutional admendments to bar gay marriage. I think that it was legal all along, just not something that was practiced or accepted. Now that a few gay couples have tried to use their constitutionally given rights, the "righteous" are having conniptions and passing laws that may or may not be legal.
Real People | 1:44 p.m. June 19, 2008
To John Lambert:
So many words, but you never admit that gays are real people with real families. I've posted above about my brother, who is gay and lives in San Diego.
I suspected he was gay when he was 10 years old and I was 16. So did the other kids, and they teased him something awful. I never said anything until he came to me when he was 19 and I was 25. He came to tell me why he wasn't going on mission and to ask for money so he could run away and not shame our parents. My heart broke that day.
Finally he's settled down in California where he met a nice guy and they bought a house, etc. It's been hard on our TBM parents, but even they are now accepting.
John Lambert, leave my family alone!
So many words, but you never admit that gays are real people with real families. I've posted above about my brother, who is gay and lives in San Diego.
I suspected he was gay when he was 10 years old and I was 16. So did the other kids, and they teased him something awful. I never said anything until he came to me when he was 19 and I was 25. He came to tell me why he wasn't going on mission and to ask for money so he could run away and not shame our parents. My heart broke that day.
Finally he's settled down in California where he met a nice guy and they bought a house, etc. It's been hard on our TBM parents, but even they are now accepting.
John Lambert, leave my family alone!
RE: YBU | 2:01 p.m. June 19, 2008
You're wrong, an extermination order WAS issued against homosexuals and it
was carried out, and more recently than the Extermination Order of Gov.
Boggs.
Approxiamtely 500,000 homosexuals were rounded up and exterminated in the Nazi death camps. Lesbians were excluded because it was believed they could be changed.
So maybe we ALL need to remember where hatred, intollerance and misunderstanding all leads.
Approxiamtely 500,000 homosexuals were rounded up and exterminated in the Nazi death camps. Lesbians were excluded because it was believed they could be changed.
So maybe we ALL need to remember where hatred, intollerance and misunderstanding all leads.
John Lambert | 2:09 p.m. June 19, 2008
As a result of the alloance of same-sex marriage in Massachusetts Catholic
Social Services has been forced to stop processing adoptions, because their only
other options was to include all legally married couples among recipients,
including same-sex couples.
I do not know about loss of tax exempt status, but I do know that groups have been told they can not treat same-sex couples as different from other married couples.
I do not know about loss of tax exempt status, but I do know that groups have been told they can not treat same-sex couples as different from other married couples.
check yourself out first | 2:15 p.m. June 19, 2008
Most people secure with their sexual orientation couldn't care less about
somebody else's.
Those who obsess about what gays do or don't do might do some self-examination.
Those who obsess about what gays do or don't do might do some self-examination.
Re: for the archive | 2:21 p.m. June 19, 2008
If I were you, I'd do a little more research. It's not "almost a
certainty" that homosexual behavior is a genetic trait. Just a few years
ago, there was a widely read, well-documented and well-supported study done by,
I believe, the Harvard School of Medicine, which showed that 52% of homosexual
females and 71% of homosexual men have suffered some form of abuse, whether it
be sexual, physical or emotional, at the hands of a domineering male in their
life. It also compared the ages at which sexualization first occured for these
individuals, and found that the majority of these homosexuals were sexualized at
a much younger age than heterosexuals they polled. There is also a separate
study that shows that more than 1/3 of women who classify themselves as bisexual
or lesbian at one time in their life change their mind later on. It's a
phase they grow out of. This is why it's become such a cliche in the media
for a young woman to "experiment in college." There is considerable
evidence out there that for at LEAST half of homosexuals, probably much more,
it's environmental and not biological.
John Lambert | 2:27 p.m. June 19, 2008
Several courts have upheld traditional marriages. The New York court went so
far as to directly confront Loving vs. Virginia and show that the cases were
very different and that their is no class subjegation goals in marriage as it
exists.
The fact of the matter is that the state has higher reasons to encorage stable opposite gender relationships and discourage unstable ones. Marriage is not at core about rights but about public policy. Once the state defines a group as able to marry opposing such actions is to oppose public policy.
Look up the Marriage and public policy website to get more discussion on this issue.
The fact of the matter is that the state has higher reasons to encorage stable opposite gender relationships and discourage unstable ones. Marriage is not at core about rights but about public policy. Once the state defines a group as able to marry opposing such actions is to oppose public policy.
Look up the Marriage and public policy website to get more discussion on this issue.
To YBU: | 2:28 p.m. June 19, 2008
Where in the Constitution does it give the right to marry? I don't believe
the word "marriage" appears anywhere in the Constitution, nor does the
"pursuit of happiness". Marriage is not, and has never been, a right.
Nobody is trampling on your Constitutional rights at all.
@ John | 2:30 p.m. June 19, 2008
LDS people have never been subjected to some of the abuses that gays have had to
deal with. When did the early Mormons ever face court ordered, electroshock
therapy and casteration? When were they denied the right to marry who they
loved? Makes being tarred and feathered look a bit tame doesn't it?
John Lambert | 2:35 p.m. June 19, 2008
Casual, random homosexual sex does not produce offspring, while the same of
heterosexual sex does at times. Thus the state has a vested interest in trying
to focus meterosexual sex into the bounds of marriage that does not apply to
homosexual sex. This is one of the main ideas in Indiana's Court's
upholding of traditiona marriage.
There are strong and compelling reasons for marriage to be between a man and a woman.
In interracial marriage debates strong and compelling reasons only exist if one assumes that one race should be dominant over another. Such dominance assumptions do not play into anti-same sex marriage laws.
There are strong and compelling reasons for marriage to be between a man and a woman.
In interracial marriage debates strong and compelling reasons only exist if one assumes that one race should be dominant over another. Such dominance assumptions do not play into anti-same sex marriage laws.
RE: John L. | 2:34 p.m. June 19, 2008
You make it sound like the Catholic Social Services having to treat all couples
as equal is a bad thing.
When will it be the LDS Social Services? THEN there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
When will it be the LDS Social Services? THEN there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth.
YBU | 2:49 p.m. June 19, 2008
I do not profess to be a historian. I am a mere accountant who has lived a life
full of joy and sorrow. I have 2 grown children that turned out pretty well, if
I am allowed to brag. I am no militant, radical, in your face type of person.
I am a loving, caring, and very empathic grandma that is trying to understand
why others would want to make me try and become something that I already tried
to be and could not be. I am happy with my life. I would like to be able to
marry my long time partner and have our relationship receive some legitamacy. I
will be spending the rest of my life with my partner and I have already spent
around $5000 to gain some of the rights that are afforded with a $50 marriage
license.
what? | 2:51 p.m. June 19, 2008
Are there really gay people in Utah?
Anonymous | 3:03 p.m. June 19, 2008
Know what? I've known thoroughly decent gay people my whole life. My kids
have had gifted teachers who I've assumed were gay (they weren't
making a case of it; I wasn't invading their private lives by asking).
There's nothing about how a gay person goes about their life that's unusual or indecent or troublesome in the least. They care about one another, about their children and about their friends and neighbors just like anyone else. I'll never be persuaded otherwise by some nondescript automaton who doesn't even have the imagination, courage or cojones to grow a beard or wear a colored shirt. 'Cause I've seen the truth in my own life and I wish gay people well, I wish them love and I wish their children good, happy lives free from persecution, judgment and rudeness.
There's nothing about how a gay person goes about their life that's unusual or indecent or troublesome in the least. They care about one another, about their children and about their friends and neighbors just like anyone else. I'll never be persuaded otherwise by some nondescript automaton who doesn't even have the imagination, courage or cojones to grow a beard or wear a colored shirt. 'Cause I've seen the truth in my own life and I wish gay people well, I wish them love and I wish their children good, happy lives free from persecution, judgment and rudeness.
YBU | 3:06 p.m. June 19, 2008
The constitution is to "promote the general Welfare, and secure the
Blessings of Liberty." You are correct that marriage has always been a
states issue. The constitution only guarentees that each state must honor all
other states acts, records and judicial proceedings (full Faith and Credit).
Pursuit of Happiness is in the declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Did I pass your test?
Marriage is a right granted by the states. It IS a right and has always fallen under the Full Faith and Credit part of the constitution until now.
Pursuit of Happiness is in the declaration of Independence. "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Did I pass your test?
Marriage is a right granted by the states. It IS a right and has always fallen under the Full Faith and Credit part of the constitution until now.
Seen the light | 3:05 p.m. June 19, 2008
I guess Mormons have grown tired of the reputation for being "nice".
This is a most enlightening discussion.
YBU | 3:20 p.m. June 19, 2008
"Marriage is a right granted by the states. It IS a right and has always
fallen under the Full Faith and Credit part of the constitution until
now."
CORRECTION: ...has USUALLY fallen under...
CORRECTION: ...has USUALLY fallen under...
Response | 3:23 p.m. June 19, 2008
Nobody in my family was ever abused or mistreated by a "dominating male
figure." Our father is a loving man who was always patient with us and
never raised his voice, let alone his hand. Our mother is loving and wonderful
and very active in her ward. My brother turned out gay, but he grew up in the
same loving Utah home as his four brothers and two sisters, none of us is gay
except him. I'm married with kids and my wife accepts my brother as part of
our family.
I have done my research, in order to come to terms. The Harvard study you cite precedes breakthroughs in neurobiology. The latest brain shape studies and recent genetics studies of brain development suggest a biological relation, although there is no definitive proof either way.
Gays are bullied because they are different, it is not because abuse makes them turn out gay. What's more: attitudes such as yours and others on here that justify and enable the bullying.
Leave my family alone and I will leave yours alone. That is the American way.
I have done my research, in order to come to terms. The Harvard study you cite precedes breakthroughs in neurobiology. The latest brain shape studies and recent genetics studies of brain development suggest a biological relation, although there is no definitive proof either way.
Gays are bullied because they are different, it is not because abuse makes them turn out gay. What's more: attitudes such as yours and others on here that justify and enable the bullying.
Leave my family alone and I will leave yours alone. That is the American way.
Anonymous | 3:25 p.m. June 19, 2008
After reading what DN readers have to say about people who are a little
different than them I'm extremely grateful I have no reason or need to ever
go to UT.
RE: What? | 3:25 p.m. June 19, 2008
There ARE!!! ANd what's worse is that they are OUT OF THEIR CLOSETS AND
NOT CONTENT TO BE SECOND CLASS CITZENS ANYMORE!!! JUST IMAGINE!
Isn't there someone we can call to have them all rounded up?
Isn't there someone we can call to have them all rounded up?
a dangerous philosophy | 3:55 p.m. June 19, 2008
Real Christianity is about love and commitment. The Bible
doesn�t condemn a loving relationship between two people of
the same sex. Divisive walls and barriers are not to be recognized by true
believers. Instead there is to be no racial, social, or sexual divisions in
God�s realm. The spiritual needs of sexual minorities are
just as valid, if not more so, and sexual minorities deserve full acceptance.
In light of societal attitudes toward gays, and
Christianity�s frequent promotion of those attitudes. It
is critical that every voice of love and acceptance be heard, and every effort
made to stop the dangerous philosophy of prejudice that has overtaken the
church.
I Know | 4:01 p.m. June 19, 2008
Unless you know for sure what make someone gay, please refrain from supposition.
There are some who try it out and then abandon it, but there are many more who
just simply know that it is a part of who they are. What made them different,
who knows for sure? It is not an easy life, even now with so many more
admitting what they are. Families are turned upside down and love is tested.
Rejection can be a daily occurance. Please try and be just a little more
understanding of what some of these people have to endure at the hands of those
who think they know better.
Dear John | 4:04 p.m. June 19, 2008
Still using your right hand only? You can do it. It is not normal to use that
evil left hand. You can overcome these natural man tendencies if you just put
your mind to it.
Dear John II | 4:26 p.m. June 19, 2008
And don't forget that you can't let you boss see you use that left
hand, you could be fired! And if the neighbors knew about you, they could cause
all sorts of problems, so hide it from them too. And the church--you could get
kicked out.
Or have you just decided that you are left handed and to hell with everyone else. It feels natural to you to use that hand, even if others think it is unnatural and evil. It is a part of who you are. You didn't choose it. It is better to feel natural with yourself than to try and please the world the rest of your life. Go ahead. Be yourself and be proud of being different.
Or have you just decided that you are left handed and to hell with everyone else. It feels natural to you to use that hand, even if others think it is unnatural and evil. It is a part of who you are. You didn't choose it. It is better to feel natural with yourself than to try and please the world the rest of your life. Go ahead. Be yourself and be proud of being different.
Mormon marriage unnatural | 5:21 p.m. June 19, 2008
Perhaps mormons would be a bit more sympathetic if mormon marriage were
outlawed. (I was raised in one and trust me, it was the most unnatural thing on
earth).
To Dear John | 5:42 p.m. June 19, 2008
I find your comments extremely wonderful! Thank you for putting it in easy
terms for the small minded mormon folk to understand! As for your argument
John, you say...
"Casual, random homosexual sex does not produce offspring, while the same of heterosexual sex does at times. Thus the state has a vested interest in trying to focus heterosexual sex into the bounds of marriage that does not apply to homosexual sex. This is one of the main ideas in Indiana's Court's upholding of traditional marriage."
Your argument is meaningless. If the only reason for a marriage is to produce offspring then people who are infertile and can't have children should no longer be able to wed- because they can't produce offspring!
HMMM... Kinda seems to me that we shouldn't punish infertile people from getting married because it is not their fault that they are infertile. That is just the way they are, they are humans and deserve the same rights as everyone right?
Not according to your plans!
"Casual, random homosexual sex does not produce offspring, while the same of heterosexual sex does at times. Thus the state has a vested interest in trying to focus heterosexual sex into the bounds of marriage that does not apply to homosexual sex. This is one of the main ideas in Indiana's Court's upholding of traditional marriage."
Your argument is meaningless. If the only reason for a marriage is to produce offspring then people who are infertile and can't have children should no longer be able to wed- because they can't produce offspring!
HMMM... Kinda seems to me that we shouldn't punish infertile people from getting married because it is not their fault that they are infertile. That is just the way they are, they are humans and deserve the same rights as everyone right?
Not according to your plans!
I Call Foul | 6:44 p.m. June 19, 2008
"to too bad" at 10:39 says that the number of lawsuits against LDS
bishops for abusing children will "blow your minds".
I doubt it. I really, really doubt it.
Are there people called as LDS bishops who choose to serve poorly and make mistakes? Unfortunately yes. But enough to really shock the public? Nope.
If you looked at the number of REAL lawsuits of this type (not just rumors / false gossip on the internet), I think the only thing a non-LDS person would find surprising is that despite literally millions of teenagers who are counseled/interact with LDS bishops every month, just how incredibly few allegations are made concerning impropriety.
I've served in several LDS leadership positions over the years and LDS bishops are counseled constantly by their leaders to avoid even the "appearance of evil"; counsel youth in their office during Church meetings with other people in the building, don't spend excessive amounts of time with any one particular person, interview women with the door open a bit, etc.
Me thinks you are refusing to look at the LDS church with an untainted opinion....
I doubt it. I really, really doubt it.
Are there people called as LDS bishops who choose to serve poorly and make mistakes? Unfortunately yes. But enough to really shock the public? Nope.
If you looked at the number of REAL lawsuits of this type (not just rumors / false gossip on the internet), I think the only thing a non-LDS person would find surprising is that despite literally millions of teenagers who are counseled/interact with LDS bishops every month, just how incredibly few allegations are made concerning impropriety.
I've served in several LDS leadership positions over the years and LDS bishops are counseled constantly by their leaders to avoid even the "appearance of evil"; counsel youth in their office during Church meetings with other people in the building, don't spend excessive amounts of time with any one particular person, interview women with the door open a bit, etc.
Me thinks you are refusing to look at the LDS church with an untainted opinion....
Consider this, John | 7:04 p.m. June 19, 2008
While I appreciate your tenacity fighting against gay marriage, can you say the
same thing with fewer words?
I don't agree with it any more than you do, but when I read (your) post after post after post, you come across, in my opinion, a little as exercising "unrighteous dominion". No, you aren't in a position of authority to force your will on others but you almost come across as wishing you were.
Right is right and wrong is wrong but sometimes no matter how logical or wise the argument, sometimes people still reject what is right.
Keep the faith!
I don't agree with it any more than you do, but when I read (your) post after post after post, you come across, in my opinion, a little as exercising "unrighteous dominion". No, you aren't in a position of authority to force your will on others but you almost come across as wishing you were.
Right is right and wrong is wrong but sometimes no matter how logical or wise the argument, sometimes people still reject what is right.
Keep the faith!
how about conservative? | 7:43 p.m. June 19, 2008
How about the notion that a court that upholds our dearly held belief that ALL
are create equal is not liberal, but conservative in forwarding the values we
profess to endorse? Are we really the land of the free where all have the same
opportunity to pursue their lives' happiness without unequal laws?
John Lambert | 8:15 p.m. June 19, 2008
What some people ignore is that the same-gender marriage push has lost in at
least seven court cases. This is mainly because these cases do not get reported
heavily. I am not totally sure why.
John Lambert | 9:04 p.m. June 19, 2008
To the person who confuses me with other posters,
I did not think up the argument, I read it in a court decision that supported marriage laws as they stand.
The court also said that the fact that some couples do not have children does not undermine the general interests of the state. The fact is that the state has an interest in encoraging marriage between a man and a woman. The current laws are the least intrusive ways to reach this. Neither men or women are discriminated against by the laws. Sexual orientation is not considered a suspect class, and the current laws were not implemented with the intent of hurting homosexuals but with the intent of secutring specific benefits to relationships between a man and a woman.
I do not have the space hear to fully explain this, and I doubt anything I say will be met with anything but mocking by some of you. However go look up the Marriage and Public policy group if you want a deep discussion on the issue, or read a court decision explaining why traditional marriage is not discriminatory.
I did not think up the argument, I read it in a court decision that supported marriage laws as they stand.
The court also said that the fact that some couples do not have children does not undermine the general interests of the state. The fact is that the state has an interest in encoraging marriage between a man and a woman. The current laws are the least intrusive ways to reach this. Neither men or women are discriminated against by the laws. Sexual orientation is not considered a suspect class, and the current laws were not implemented with the intent of hurting homosexuals but with the intent of secutring specific benefits to relationships between a man and a woman.
I do not have the space hear to fully explain this, and I doubt anything I say will be met with anything but mocking by some of you. However go look up the Marriage and Public policy group if you want a deep discussion on the issue, or read a court decision explaining why traditional marriage is not discriminatory.
most commented | 12:47 a.m. June 20, 2008
This is the most commented story on the Des News site.
40 years ago, according to my mom, you couldn't even mention homosexuality in Utah. 20 years ago, I'm pretty sure, the Deseret News would not have published a neutral story about an openly gay member of the Utah legislature.
Times are changing, let's not even pretend they're not.
40 years ago, according to my mom, you couldn't even mention homosexuality in Utah. 20 years ago, I'm pretty sure, the Deseret News would not have published a neutral story about an openly gay member of the Utah legislature.
Times are changing, let's not even pretend they're not.
Alone | 8:52 a.m. June 20, 2008
I thought it was not good for man to be alone...I guess that is unless you are
gay. Do you people realize that you are asking a gay person to be alone their
whole life...I am amazed.
To Alone: | 9:19 a.m. June 20, 2008
We ask that a gay person follows the law of chastity, just like any other
person. There are many single adults in the LDS church, and quite a few who
never marry during this lifetime, and they are all asked to follow the same
rules.
Alone | 9:30 a.m. June 20, 2008
Chastity: Not having sex until you are legally married. Yes?
So, if same-sex marriage becomes legal, could we get married and still be chase? I know that we can never get married in the temple, but if it is legal, it sounds like it is going to be approved.
Maybe this is why the LDS Church is fighting so hard to block this from happening.
So, if same-sex marriage becomes legal, could we get married and still be chase? I know that we can never get married in the temple, but if it is legal, it sounds like it is going to be approved.
Maybe this is why the LDS Church is fighting so hard to block this from happening.
bhparkman | 9:50 a.m. June 20, 2008
From what I gather reading from both sides here, I can only assume we're
heading towards a civil war.
There is nothing more I can say about gay marriage, polygamy, taxes, education, Leftism, etc. that will make any impact anymore. If folks want gay marriage, then they can get it and deal with it. I will not be invovled in this at all.
I am not going to fight a bloody war again. If this is the way all the societies want to go, then that's fine - they can deal with it. I'll just go into hiding and allow it happen.
There's nothing more I can do; unless folks come back to their senses. I'm going to wash my hands now and pray...
There is nothing more I can say about gay marriage, polygamy, taxes, education, Leftism, etc. that will make any impact anymore. If folks want gay marriage, then they can get it and deal with it. I will not be invovled in this at all.
I am not going to fight a bloody war again. If this is the way all the societies want to go, then that's fine - they can deal with it. I'll just go into hiding and allow it happen.
There's nothing more I can do; unless folks come back to their senses. I'm going to wash my hands now and pray...
no sweat | 10:05 a.m. June 20, 2008
Conservatives would like you to believe we're headed for a civil war.
In reality, their numbers are miniscule - around 15% think the country is going in the right direction.
As a proud liberal, I am sweating nothing.
Let them be as nasty as they want.
Real America is on the move and its beautiful.
Thank God!
In reality, their numbers are miniscule - around 15% think the country is going in the right direction.
As a proud liberal, I am sweating nothing.
Let them be as nasty as they want.
Real America is on the move and its beautiful.
Thank God!
To Alone: | 10:17 a.m. June 20, 2008
One part of the law of chastity is no sex before marriage, yes. But that's
not all it is. The law also includes no: masturbation; watching, viewing or
reading pornographic materials; groping and other heated aspects of making out;
acting on homosexual feelings; impure speech, impure thoughts and otherwise
preoccupying yourself with sex; sex crimes of any sort; modeling for
inappropriate photographs or videos; acting on impure desires, particularly
toward children or animals; when concerning polygamy, only marrying those that
Heavenly Father directs you to marry; and even wearing short, tight or otherwise
sexually revealing clothing.
There are many more aspects to the law of chastity than I've even listed, both before and after marriage. Married couples aren't even supposed to discuss what goes on in the privacy of their bedrooms with others.
The answer to your question is this: the only way that two homosexuals could marry and still keep the law of chastity is to remain fully celibate in that marriage.
The reason the LDS Church is opposing this measure is because homosexual behavior violates the Lord's law of chastity. We have an obligation to try to use legal measures in preventing everything that goes against His commandments.
There are many more aspects to the law of chastity than I've even listed, both before and after marriage. Married couples aren't even supposed to discuss what goes on in the privacy of their bedrooms with others.
The answer to your question is this: the only way that two homosexuals could marry and still keep the law of chastity is to remain fully celibate in that marriage.
The reason the LDS Church is opposing this measure is because homosexual behavior violates the Lord's law of chastity. We have an obligation to try to use legal measures in preventing everything that goes against His commandments.
To all of you | 12:25 p.m. June 20, 2008
I was raised Mormon for the majority of my childhood, and after a lot of soul
searching, left the Mormon church when I was 18. It was an awakening for me in
many ways. As a teenager, some assumed I was lesbian because I wasn't
interested in dating boys (I was preoccupied with school and other things). I
was judged very harshly because of this, and because I wanted a career. I was
told that was wrong. I have never felt such harsh judgment as when I am around
members of the LDS faith. Interestingly, my non-LDS family members are the one
who have shown me unconditional love. My LDS family members - not so much.
Interesting. For all those who actually are homosexuals and LDS (or former LDS)
my heart goes out to you. I cannot imagine the pain and heartbreak you must
feel. I know that I am waiting with open arms to accept unconditionally my niece
or nephews should they be gay or lesbian. I know my own sister would disown that
part of them - even though they are her children.
To To Alone @ 10:17 | 1:15 p.m. June 20, 2008
You are very right about the law of chastity and I appreciate your strong values
and beliefs! However, you say in your comment that the church is opposing gay
marriage because you have an "obligation to try to use legal measures in
preventing everything that goes against His commandments!" It is not your
job to do anything legal for the Lord! It is none of your business what others
do. Your only obligation is to focus on what you are doing right and wrong, not
anyone else! It actually sounds a lot like Satan's plan in the
pre-existence to make sure people are doing the right thing and the wrong
thing! Concentrate on yourself and let God judge everyone, not you!
re: to alone | 1:35 p.m. June 20, 2008
I think the LDS church might better serve its members by focusing on the higher
than national average of teen pregnancies (ages 15-19) where nearly 4 out of
every 100 girls get pregnant.
Source: Utah Department of Health
Source: Utah Department of Health
Anonymous | 1:55 p.m. June 20, 2008
"Times are changing, let's not even pretend they're not."
The thing that has changed is that homosexuals will not stay in the closet any longer. They are living their lives openly. No longer do you just suspect those young males down the street that keep their yard so nice might be, they tell you that they are and seem to be proud of it! It makes a lot of people uncomfortable knowing, not just surmising anymore.
The number of gays probably has not increased from the 1950's but you see sooo many more of them because they refuse to hide and now some want to legitimize their relationships! No longer are they ashamed and all the scolding and preaching will not change that.
The amount of "sinning" has not increased, but the shift in power is unnerving to quite a few.
The thing that has changed is that homosexuals will not stay in the closet any longer. They are living their lives openly. No longer do you just suspect those young males down the street that keep their yard so nice might be, they tell you that they are and seem to be proud of it! It makes a lot of people uncomfortable knowing, not just surmising anymore.
The number of gays probably has not increased from the 1950's but you see sooo many more of them because they refuse to hide and now some want to legitimize their relationships! No longer are they ashamed and all the scolding and preaching will not change that.
The amount of "sinning" has not increased, but the shift in power is unnerving to quite a few.
Family | 2:40 p.m. June 20, 2008
Maybe it is healthier to not pretend that the USA is something that it is not
like we used to.
It is like a big, dysfunctionaly family that has been showing the world that we are the best, most righteous, and most deserving of all countries on this earth, but really, we are just humans, all trying to get along. Up til now, the righteous passed laws forcing compliance, ridiculed, and shunned those that were not the same, but these children have grown up and are no longer hiding our faults. In fact, they are telling the world what we really are. This is upsetting to some, but others have grown up too and are realizing that what our country stands for is more important than forcing others to act how we want them to.
It is like a big, dysfunctionaly family that has been showing the world that we are the best, most righteous, and most deserving of all countries on this earth, but really, we are just humans, all trying to get along. Up til now, the righteous passed laws forcing compliance, ridiculed, and shunned those that were not the same, but these children have grown up and are no longer hiding our faults. In fact, they are telling the world what we really are. This is upsetting to some, but others have grown up too and are realizing that what our country stands for is more important than forcing others to act how we want them to.
To commenter at 1:35 | 4:00 p.m. June 20, 2008
"I think the LDS church might better serve its members by focusing on the
higher than national average of teen pregnancies (ages 15-19) where nearly 4 out
of every 100 girls get pregnant."
Actually, your data is WAY off. According to the May 2007 data, we're well BELOW the national average. The national average is 75 pregnancies per 1000 teen girls, and Utah is 38/1000 - less than 1% above half of the average.(You can find this information clearly posted on the Utah Health Department website, and it's the very first link when you Google "Utah teen pregnancy rates", so I have no idea where you got your info from.)
We also have one of the lowest abortion rates in the country, 15% lower than the national average.
Neither number is where it should be, but we're doing much better than many of the other states out there. Several are well above the national average.
Actually, your data is WAY off. According to the May 2007 data, we're well BELOW the national average. The national average is 75 pregnancies per 1000 teen girls, and Utah is 38/1000 - less than 1% above half of the average.(You can find this information clearly posted on the Utah Health Department website, and it's the very first link when you Google "Utah teen pregnancy rates", so I have no idea where you got your info from.)
We also have one of the lowest abortion rates in the country, 15% lower than the national average.
Neither number is where it should be, but we're doing much better than many of the other states out there. Several are well above the national average.
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I've got news for you: many gay people have children, and gay people can now adopt in every state but two. Several states allow 2 parent adoption, meaning that both partners can jointly adopt. That's the law now. Your's is just one more argument that proves hollow.