Deseret News | The Obama sock monkey may not be shelved

Reader comments
The Obama sock monkey may not be shelved

121 comments | Read story

any stories to share? | 2:11 p.m. June 16, 2008

So Amy, like to tell us about any warm and fuzzy race stories about Mississippi?
Any similarities between the deep south and the Zion Curtain?

socks are not bad | 2:11 p.m. June 16, 2008

I'm going to make my own Obama Monkey sock puppet, but I'll use a white sock for Obamas white side.

People like me | 2:12 p.m. June 16, 2008

People like me don't go around assuming someone to be liberal or conservative.

When you make comments in a public forum, be prepared to accept criticism. The point I hope you take, Amy, is that when you take a stand, take it all the way. Don't backpedal and try to appease those who disagree with you. In my opinion, it seemed your comment about making a teddy bear was an attempt to come off as a "nice" person to the people who have been disagreeing with you. Be yourself, stand up for your right to have your opinion. The play nice stuff is what has created an atmosphere of moral backwash.

I'm not saying don't be polite or don't engage with courtesy, just don't water-down your position. How can we ever come to well-constructed concensus when we aren't willing to firmly state our positions? Muddling it up with "feel good" leaves everyone with a sour feeling.

I can respect your right to your opinion, I just want to know what it really is.

Comments continue below

Dear "a stark reminder" | 2:12 p.m. June 16, 2008

You owe "Dear To Amy" a close-rereading of their comments. Yes, they stated it was a first amendment right to be a racist, but they ALSO stated that it was OUR right to protest it!

I believe you were going after "To Amy"?

stark's target | 2:18 p.m. June 16, 2008

Pretty sure you were aiming at me and not Dear To Amy. That's why I answered.

Amy | 2:22 p.m. June 16, 2008

"When you make comments in a public forum, be prepared to accept criticism."

There has been a lot of criticism, so I don't need your patronizing tone, thanks.

My opinion is that the monkey doll was terrible. I don't know if they meant it in a racist way or not. Doesn't matter to me, it's still horrible item.

If they truly were ignorant of "monkey" as a racial slur (and since someone just said they didn't know what Jim Crow was, I guess anything is possible) and were sincere in wishing to make cute, cuddly toys as their press releases state, then there are plenty of things they can still make. I wasn't trying to "appease" anybody.

If they were being racist jerks...well there are lot of them, but at least these two won't be profiting off of this little venture.

tis nice | 2:33 p.m. June 16, 2008

I'm actually quite glad for the article that sparked this debate. It's nice to see the Utah community informing each other about the issue of race, that there still is a long way to go, that many of us have awakened to this, that more are willing to be educated, and that rather quickly bad marketing ideas fade away. No one will actually remember this sock puppet fiasco in a month or two, but hopefully people will remember the words of those who have spoken of the hurts of racism and increase their ability to see through color-blind lenses.

No defense; none! | 2:39 p.m. June 16, 2008

Freedom of Speech was not impeded here. The company chose to discontinue the marketing and sales of their product. By choice. They looked at the public outcry and made a decision. Was some law passed over the weekend banning such a product? No.

So the company, if they truly believed this to be nothing more than celebrating the accomplishments of Obama (as stated on their website)they should have stuck to their conviction. The fact that they so quickly caved is a telling sign that this was at best an ignorant ploy at humor or at worst nothing more than an ugly attempt at a racial slur.

And to those posters that think that we who are offended are black, think again. We have only one thing in common: We want us all to be better people.

Capt. Smash | 2:41 p.m. June 16, 2008

What would Christ do? Please put yourself in the other persons shoes! Please, try and love and not hate! Come on Utah the church and Christ teaches us we should all love one another, so come on! Follow your heart and Holly Spirt!

Amy | 3:05 p.m. June 16, 2008

"So Amy, like to tell us about any warm and fuzzy race stories about Mississippi?
Any similarities between the deep south and the Zion Curtain?"

I've never been to Utah, so I couldn't really say. I imagine that racism would manifest very differently because of the history and demographics of two are not similar.

In Mississippi, you have things like purposefully drawing district lines to segregate schools, or founding small private schools that always seem to be all-white. My high school was founded the same year the town was integrated...but the administration will vehemently deny that was the reason.

The state politicians openly cozy up the the Council of Conservative Citizens, a white supremacist group.

Apology to Amy | 3:06 p.m. June 16, 2008

I sincerely apologize if my words came off patronizing, I hoped using the neutrality of how you had phrased things wouldn't come off as insulting or assumptive. I beg your pardon.

I appreciate your stand and your perception. I hope you take your passion into the political arena this year by working diligently for your candidates of choice. We need people to really care and then put their principles into action not just in the example of their own lives, but in electing worthy representation.

You've been successful with this rallying cry. I'd say no few people have had their eyes opened to the fact that racism is in perception not just intent. I hope you will always fight for what you believe in. For, I believe, it's not difference of opinion that will wreck our nation, it's apathy.

alright lets try this again | 3:06 p.m. June 16, 2008

only in utah, the whitest state in the union would people not think racism is ugly in all forms
but then this state is full of red necks, skinsheads and other lower mentality types
why is it people are so quick to squirm when the mormon church is called a cult but think nothing of insulting people of color

Monkey what? | 3:08 p.m. June 16, 2008

Unless I am mistaken the theory of evolution states that we all(all races) evolved from apes and monkeys so how is this racist to Obama but not to McCain? They came from the same place(apes) so there shouldn't be a difference. I saw pictures of what it was supposed to look like and it was kinda cute.

Re: Capt. Smash | 3:10 p.m. June 16, 2008

forgive me, but "Holly Spirt" is really hilarious and I whole heartedly aim to follow it!

MuscleDaddy | 3:11 p.m. June 16, 2008

I thought it was cute.

Much moreso than any of the obviously hateful, angry Bush/Monkey photoshops you see every day for nearly the past decade.

different | 3:19 p.m. June 16, 2008

Here they purposefully draw lines to inhibit democrats from being a majority. Here school lines are drawn to convenience dominant religion boundaries.

You're right in saying anything is possible with regard to being uneducated about blacks in Utah. There are people here who live and die without ever meeting a black person let alone ever having an opportunity to associate in an ongoing relationship.

Amy | 3:21 p.m. June 16, 2008

"only in utah, the whitest state in the union would people not think racism is ugly in all forms
but then this state is full of red necks, skinsheads and other lower mentality types
why is it people are so quick to squirm when the mormon church is called a cult but think nothing of insulting people of color"

It's hardly only Utah, and I doubt the state is particularly worse than any other. People in mostly white states tend to not be as aware of this kind of history, because it doesn't impact their lives as much.

"For, I believe, it's not difference of opinion that will wreck our nation, it's apathy."

YES. People who just don't care drive me mad. You can talk/convince/fight/whatever with different opinions, but what can you do with someone who just doesn't care? I'm glad the voter turnout in the primary was so high; I hope that it will get more people in the habit of voting.

Re: alright lets try this again | 3:30 p.m. June 16, 2008

Your hypocritical comments speak for themselves.

You have no problem painting ALL Utahns and Mormons at white, racist, rednecked, skinheads of lower mentality.

Remove the bigotted beam from your own eye and you'll find that the racist mote is missing from the eyes of most of the people you accuse.

Thomas Pain | 3:40 p.m. June 16, 2008

Here we are in 2008 and everybody is too concerned about offending specific groups, but some are fair game. It is OK for someone to make fun of white people, males, heterosexuals, and certain religions, but it is not OK to make fun of black people, females, homosexuals, and athiests.
Why? This does not make any sense. Was the puppet offensive? ... Only if you want it to be.

Please get some common sense.

Bill in Texas | 3:46 p.m. June 16, 2008

Hey Mike,

Utah Racist? Have you seen the segregation that exists in our own schools? Private schools exist in many places, so that wealthy white kids don't have to go to school with kids from other backgrounds and ethnicities.

To the people from Utah. I apologize for my fellow Texan, and his lopsided representation of how Texans think.

racisms ugly head | 4:00 p.m. June 16, 2008

Next to Idaho, Utah has the largest amount of racists in America.
I thought EVERYBODY knew that.
It's so deep in their culture that it will never go away.

Question to Utah? | 4:03 p.m. June 16, 2008

I have a question for some of you Utah people. I am from out of state; I am here on business.

Is Utah really that racist? Everyone I talk to back in Washington DC had told me Utah hated Blacks. Now I am starting to wonder; it may be true!

Has it always been like this?

Kathy from DC

Anonymous | 4:36 p.m. June 16, 2008

but some really do look like monkeys. Wasn't this Darwin's theory? Lets blame it on him...

Matthew | 4:42 p.m. June 16, 2008

I've lived in Utah on a couple of occasions but I grew up in Colorado. Most Utahans are not racist, but many have never had much interaction with ï¿½African-Americanï¿½ people simply due to demographics.
When I was in elementary school, my parents volunteered to help transport a bunch of inner-city kids down to a zoo in Colorado Springs. These kids were almost all ï¿½African-Americanï¿½ (back then they were ï¿½Blackï¿½ and only very recently not ï¿½Negroï¿½) and none were ï¿½White.ï¿½ Most had never had anything to do with a ï¿½Whiteï¿½ kid. I was blond-haired and blue-eyed as a child and they were fascinated by my appearance. The kids in our car took to calling me peanut-head. I didnï¿½t get the impression it was mean-spirited; they just couldnï¿½t help but notice how different I was.
Iï¿½m pretty sure that most ï¿½Whiteï¿½ people that have always lived in areas with a minute ï¿½non-Whiteï¿½ population are not racist but simply guilty of the same, unintentionally insensitive, fascination with difference that I experienced on that trip to the zoo.
I've always thought that M.L. King Jr.'s dream of a color-blind America was spot on. We just aren't there yet.

to Kathy from DC | 4:43 p.m. June 16, 2008

Some Utahns probably do. Some Utahns probably don't, but have fear of the unknown. Some Utahns probably embrace blacks. Some Utahns probably don't know what to think.

A generalization about Utah hating blacks is about as true as a generalization that everyone in DC is a crooked politician. People are people wherever you go.

To Kathy from DC | 4:45 p.m. June 16, 2008

If you believe that, then you are as ignorant as they come. Here in Utah, everyone I talk to think people from DC are idiots. Has it always been like that?

Charles | 4:48 p.m. June 16, 2008

To those who think capitalism won out on this one don't know what capitalism is.

What won on this one is liberals playing the pc race card, as usual. That's what the left does, they shout down anyone who doesn't agree with their ideology.

One may not like the idea of the doll, so don't buy one. No one is forcing you to look at the website or forcing you to buy a doll.

Capitalism says let them put it up on the website and people can buy or not. It's just like anything else out there in the buying venues. If no one bought them, fine. If they sell out, fine.

Who are any of us to say otherwise. I laugh at those who claim to be offended. You must be looking for offense. One can only be offended if one allows oneself to be offended.

The religious bigots on these pages each day and the SLLIB are no better than those who claim the Lawson's were wrong in their endeavor. And only if the bigotry is against Mormons; that makes it ok...put Jew, Mexican, Black for Mormon on these pages and let the mudslinging begin....

Timj | 4:50 p.m. June 16, 2008

Kathy--
Sometimes I think people in Utah are more ignorant than racist.
I served an LDS mission in Germany and noticed how the Germans hated people from Africa, Eastern Europe, and the Middle East, because they were "taking their jobs." I was friends with many of these foreigners. They'd been successful engineers, reporters, etc. before, and in Germany they were janitors and street sweepers. I got pretty fed up with the racist Germans, and convinced myself that things were different in the US.
Alas, things aren't different. I consistently see racism, pointed mainly at Latinos.
Still, despite the posts on this site, I think most people in Utah aren't really racist, at least not towards African Americans...but many are ignorant, and African Americans are a very small minority, so people here aren't used to seeing them much.

Timj | 4:55 p.m. June 16, 2008

For those who don't seem to get why the monkey is racist...
I'll give you one reason. I have heard a couple of times (most recently from one of my high school students) that white people were created directly by God, and all other people evolved (and thus share a common ancestor with apes).
Racist? Oh ya. And this was from a kid that, from my perspective, seemed pretty normal.
By the way, this was in Idaho, although I've heard the same thing said in California.

To Kathy from DC | 4:54 p.m. June 16, 2008

First, you're on business and you have time for this blog? Seriously, show your true self.

Second, Everyone you talk to back in DC says that? How many people have you talked to and what are the topics for the other 49 states? I'd love to see your questions and your polls....

You crack me up.. and everyone I talk to in AZ says the people in DC are all crack heads, stupid people having babies out of wedlock and hellbent on killing each other....

Has it always been like that?

Scott in AZ

to Kathy from DC | 4:58 p.m. June 16, 2008

I don't think they hate Blacks specifically. They just don't believe in anyone who's not LDS and they're perfectly happy to trod all over them whilst pretending they don't exist.

Oh muscle daddy | 5:03 p.m. June 16, 2008

You thought it was 'cute'.

Bush has beend depicted as a monkey because of his intelligence (lack of), which is actually a rather severe insult to real monkeys.

If you are unaware of the long history of racist depictions of blacks as monkeys, you need skip one of your visits to Gold's Gym and hit a library instead.

If you are aware of the past comparison of blacks to monkeys and just don't care, you just need to stay in Utah County where the slogan should be:

"Life Backwards"

and so | 5:02 p.m. June 16, 2008

thought police = 1

freedom of expression = 0

Thomas | 5:23 p.m. June 16, 2008

Having lived in the South, and having been raised by a mother from the deep south with surprisingly open-minded and "open-hearted" views on race, I have to laugh at people calling this "racist Utah." You have no idea what you are saying. I think many Utahns are somewhat ignorant on race, due to be raised in a largely one-race society, but those who find Utahns more "racist" than those of other states need to get out more. Really.

to timj | 5:26 p.m. June 16, 2008

If that comment was truly made is it the result of some warped attempt to reconcile creationist teachings and natural selection? That statement is so appalling I can't believe it was said in seriousness. As sarcasm, it would be in extremely poor taste, as a serious statement of belief, alarming.

Timj | 5:36 p.m. June 16, 2008

I believe the comments made about whites being "specially created" and other races evolving was made in seriousness.
I was teaching biology (and discussing the evidence for evolution, as it's important for a good basic understanding of biology--and even Idaho requires its teachers to teach it). So I'm sure it was a misguided attempt to reconcile biology with religion.
And yes, I was quite alarmed by it.

Anonymous | 5:48 p.m. June 16, 2008

My favorite:
Right is right. LOL!

yo timj | 5:52 p.m. June 16, 2008

Please don't go on your evolution soap box...we all know you believe you evolved from an ape, but there are many who don't subscribe to your theory of man. so keep it in the classroom, indoctrinate your students in an empty theory and let it go.....

And yes, we are quite alarmed by your theory that you came from an ape...

not in Utah | 6:03 p.m. June 16, 2008

What?
Racism in Utah?
No way!
They're much too white and delightsome to be racist.

Charles | 6:12 p.m. June 16, 2008

to "not in Utah"....seems like you are keeping religious bigotry alive and well....atta boy/girl!!

Timj | 6:14 p.m. June 16, 2008

For the record, despite the chapter in the textbook about human evolution, I never taught it. I knew it--it was discussed in detail in my evolution class at BYU--but Idaho doesn't require it to be taught, and there were more important aspects of evolution to cover.
The more pressing problem, as evident here, is racism and ignorance. When children believe that "God created me, but not those kids over there," then we have a problem on our hands.
A sock puppet of Romney with horns and multiple wives would've annoyed me greatly. It's ignorance, stupidity, and bigotry combined.
Obama as a monkey is just as offensive, and for the exact same reasons.

sob | 6:44 p.m. June 16, 2008

right on to timj

SO | 6:59 p.m. June 16, 2008

What happened to the 1st amd. I thought those rights were big with left. Guess I was wrong.

Dear SO | 7:13 p.m. June 16, 2008

The First Amendment gives the Lawsons the right to make the most horrible, racist toy possible.

The First Amendment ALSO gives US the right to speak out against it.

Or....do you right-wing people want the First Amendment to apply only to your side?

AND...WHY do you think that "libs" are the ones who are upset? This issue has brought national attention to Utah, in a bad way. That means our
businesspeople, tourism, religious activities, and other money-making activities could be affected.
Right-thinking people of all political persuasions should be offended. This time, it's Obama. Next time, it's your candidate. What will YOU do?

Oh and by the way: PC is "polite conversation". The ONLY people I hear using PC in any other way, are the right-wingers when confronted with hate speech.

If you go back and read all the messages in these forums, you'll find that the "PC" threat is made ONLY by the right wing.

--
Laytonian

Timj | 7:17 p.m. June 16, 2008

First amendment?
No government interference here. The voice of the people spoke, and the voice of the people triumphed.
They're still free to make their racist dolls. They just have to find a company that's willing to go along with them.

Amy | 7:21 p.m. June 16, 2008

"What happened to the 1st amd. I thought those rights were big with left. Guess I was wrong."

As far as I know, no government entity compelled them to quit making toys. Their supplier, once they realized the history of the image, decided to stop production. No force or coercion was involved, as far as I know.

Dear SO (more) | 7:34 p.m. June 16, 2008

I forgot. Since the First Amendment is in regards to the US Government infrinting on your right to free speech, where IS that infringement here?

Bob Lewis | 8:49 p.m. June 16, 2008

The companies listed as making the dolls are not registered to do business in Utah. Why hasnï¿½t the Republican Attorney General of Utah closed these companies? The people making the doll are active Republicans. If this company is not registared, they are defrauding those making the toy ï¿½at homeï¿½ and the state. They have their right to make a doll showing they have no dignity; however, they need to follow the law in registering their business and pay their fair share of taxes like everyone else.

Gov. Huntsman and Republican Attorney General Shurtleff need to perform their duty. If they donï¿½t, their silence shows their consent.

I Get Around . . . | 9:05 p.m. June 16, 2008

To all you bigots who think every Utahan is racist.

I have lived in seven different states. Of all these places, Utah is the least racist. Stop assuming that all Utahans are racist because two people out of millions made a toy that could be taken as being racist. Get to know a Utahan before you make judgment. After all, isn't that what you are asking of them?

My wife is from Utah, and when I told her people were offended by an Obama monkey toy, she didn't get it! That's right. Racism is so rare in Utah, she made it to 30 without having any idea monkeys were racially associated with blacks. Now thanks to you anti-racist, she has been tainted.

To those of you who yell racism every time something comes up, you are keeping racism alive, maybe even more so than actual racist. Stop shouting racism every time you turn around, and maybe people with start forgetting to be racist.

Seriously, I don't even notice Obama'sskin color, until the so-called anti-racist media points it out, and boy do they dwell on it. If you ask me, big media is the biggest racist of all.

Oh please... | 9:38 p.m. June 16, 2008

Re: Laytonian (Dear SO)

PC means "polite conversation" about as much as homosexuality means "committed, loving relationship".

Add your comment

Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.

Words Remaining

E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.