Comments about ‘Singapore may offer better math for Utahns’

I would have liked to hear the presentation.

On the other hand, when was the last time I used Geometry proofs or the Calculus I learned?

Um......never.

I know some people are going to have to learn advanced math for their careers but at least 90% won't.

Homeschoolers have been using it for several years. You can go to their site and check it out. Besides having good results, it is one of the less expensive programs out there.

Duh! All they needed to do was go back to how math was taught in the 50's and 60's where the basic system of math were taught and used. No calculators, no computers, just pencil and paper and your brain. Let the brain practice the numbers is the only way to learn what functions are required to get the results. Not knowing how an answer was achieved does not make for learning and knowing how math works. The same goes for the english language reading and writing skills. Computers in schools should be reserved for the teachers record keeping and administration use. Although pencils and paper are much cheaper than computers and the high cost programming, there is nothing like the slow process of hand writen calculating to learn. Calculators are not needed in basic math learning but infact impair the understanding and learning of the 3 basics, reading, writing, and math.

Geometry proofs teaches you critical thinking skills and deductive reasoning skills. There is a push to eliminate such important skills from Geometry, but as a parent and math tutor, it would be detrimental to high school students.
You cannot assume that kids will not use these valuable skills in life or when attending college. In fact, we need to assume that kids will go on and benefit from the excellent foundation a good geometry or algebra class would offer them.
I suppose we can continue relying upon immigrants to do some of these top paying jobs in this country, or we can prepare our own students to move into these high paying jobs.

I wasn't impressed with Singapore Math. It is very visual which is a positive, but the overall program isn't as solid as I like Math programs to be. Saxon is still my top choice because of its emphasis on all three aspects of math education, not just one. Students need to master factual knowledge, vocabulary and have a firm grasp on why and how we use mathematical concepts.

Almost no one uses Geometry proofs after high school. But that is not the point. Studying math helps people learn to think critically.

A lot of people are uniformed about how math can help prepare them for the future. About 75% of the K-12 students in Utah study at a college/university, and the amount of math they have in high school is the best indicator of how successful that student will be in college/university no matter what their major is. If you want to be a lawyer you have to take the LSAT in order to get into Law School. Of all the college majors, students who major in math have one of the highest score on the LSAT and one of the highest acceptance rates into Law School. The same is true for acceptance into Medical School and an MBA program. This is not because these exams require Geometry Proofs, but because they require critical thinking.

And then there are a lot of other careers for which math is a great training, such as computer programming, internet security, code breaking, engineering, economics, actuary, statistics, etc.

We are not learning math to assist us in our careers most of the time. We study math to teach us how to think logically, develop a problem solving model and challenge our minds to memorize and apply that knowledge.

Most of the students I tutor in Junior High School still cannot multiply or combine fractions, third and fourth grade level math.

One problem I see with Utah's approach to teaching math is that most elementary teachers are very poor in their own mathematical skills. They choose elementary ed as a college major because they like children and want to be an influence for good in their lives. Consequently, math is poorly taught and poorly received by students.

Lucky is the student who enjoys math lessons from a teacher who loves the subject and is creative in presenting it to the class. Lucky is the student who understands the concepts and memorizes the basic elements of computation, addition, subtraction, multiplying and division, along with fractions, percent, money and measurement.

Is anyone else disturbed that a member of our state board of education thinks Singapore is part of China?

As to the previous comment: We aren't talking about advanced math here. It is shocking how many kids are leaving the grade schools not knowing how to do long division. I assume you would admit to using that in your daily life.

We have wasted time with constructionist math programs that don't give kids basic math skills. I am thrilled that the state board is looking at a program that actually teaches kids math.

Anonymous said: "On the other hand, when was the last time I used Geometry proofs or the Calculus I learned?
Um......never.
I know some people are going to have to learn advanced math for their careers but at least 90% won't."

Where are you getting your figures? 90% won't? And by the way, the last I heard, school was about opening doors for students, not shutting them. If that's too abstract a concept, consider that math helps with "critical thinking skills" which most people in ed schools seem to hold in high regard. Why be against geometric proofs which help develop such skills, even if the actual subject matter of geometry may not be used. Do you not logic in your arguments? Or do you simply rely on figures such as '90%' and hope that no one challenges you.

Don't be too quick to abandon all other programs and choose just one. Don't we need a variety of methods.

It is indeed scary that a board member thinks Singapore is in China. Not just any member either: the until-recently chair of the state board of education and lead opponent of vouchers.

I wish I had the source for this, but I believe it was Lincoln (who became a self-taught lawyer) who studied Euclid's geometry proofs well into the night by candlelight.

People fail all the time to understand the benefits of a mathematics education.

I got a masters degree in math and then entered law school. I think I'm on par with any of my classmates. I do okay on the exams, even though they are skewed toward those with better writing and English skills (as they probably should be). But I suspect whether in law school those better English and writing skills aren't sometimes compensating for a lack of reasoning and analytic skills.

You don't need to get a math degree just to go into math or teaching. I feel I could have successfully entered most any post-graduate subject and done well.

I have been using the full curriculum of the US Edition of Singapore's Primary (Elementary School) Math to tutor teenagers and adults for over 3 years. I am the primary proofreader for the US-published Home Instructor's Guide for the curriculum.

Taking some of the "concepts of" Singapore Math will be nowhere near adopting the full curriculum in our schools. The state of California has recently been instrumental in working with the Singapore Ministry of Education to create the Standards Edition, which is based on the new California mathematics standards for Elementary Schools. These standards are significantly higher than Utah's current standards.

As Anonymous mentioned above, Singapore is NOT a part of China. It is an independent country. Students in Singapore have ranked first in the world in an exam known as "Trends in International Mathematics and Sciences" for the last 15 years.

I would also like to point out to those readers who have stated that formal Geometric proofs are not used outside of school that formal Geometric proofs are not taught as part of the Elementary School curriculum. Nor are they taught in the Secondary Schools (Junior High and High Schools.

The idea of a variety of methods being needed in teaching basic math is not based upon research or outcomes. We have evolved to this idea in the US because many teachers are not comfortable with math themselves and it is for the teahers that we accept "a variety" of methods.

Math is a relatively easy subject to "know what works" because mastery is quite easily evaluated through data. If we evaluate the data of students in Saxon and Singapore math it becomes clear that to offer other methods without hard data to prove their effectiveness is an abuse of the taxpayer dollar and a dis-service to students.

Our school's fifth graders have outscored our district and state by at least 25 percentile points each year in math. We teach the whole range of students, yes even those in special education. And we use Saxon math (with Connecting Math Concepts in the very early grades -another program with great data supporting it).

I'm sure this is one of the reasons we have 2500 students on our wait list each year. It's not rocket science - you just have to be willing to do what is proven to work.

I was about to make the same comment about our Board of Education about not knowing Singapore is its own soverign country and not part of China. They are only separated by about 1000 km!!!!

Perhaps we need "Singapore/China Geography" too

The part they left out? Singapore is a highly regimented society and the kids do not sit in class with cell phones in one ear and iPods in the other. If they act up in class or sass the teacher, they are severely punished. In Singapore, the kids actually pay attention in class.

How about a choice? Some students would do better with this kind of math. Others not so good. But choice is not something Public Education is good at doing. They pick the pattern from on high, then push it down to everyone. My heck, most teachers cannot even understand the math they are teaching! They can tell you the steps, but get them outside of the steps, and they are clueless (generally).

Let those teachers who want to learn this process learn it. They can become the Singapore Math teachers. Other teachers will continue what they have been doing. Then, when it comes time to enroll your kids in Math classes, you not only get to choose what level of Math, but what method!
My hunch is that over time, you will see which method is better, and parents can make informed decisions, instead of administrators from on high.

It is not total choice, but it is a step in the right direction.

Monticello Academy, a K-9 charter school in West Valley City, has successfully used Singapore Math for the past few years. It works, and the kids have a better love for math using it.

Having attended the afternoon session, one of the most impressive things is that out of half a million students in the country, only about 100 need remediation help after 6th grade and are unable to pass a high-stakes test to get into the secondary school system. Their test is very challenging but they have instilled strong thinking skills into their students so they are able to grasp very difficult concepts much earlier than we do. This method works. It doesn't leave out any of the basics either. Singapore math is the very best program in the world and if we could bring it into Utah for K-8, we would be the top state in math and lead America into getting out of our technical drought.

I've used it successfully for years as a home school parent. However, I'm very comfortable with my math skills, and my kids are pretty good at math. If they are going to use it in the public schools, they HAVE to invest in training the teachers to use it. School districts who don't soon find that it doesn't deliver what they had hoped it would.

The textbooks use a lot of visual explanations to show the child how the math works, as opposed to written explanations. There isn't enough practice for someone who is struggling or average in math, they will need to supplement. It is extremely strong in teaching mathmatical reasoning, word problems and in approaching a given concept from several angles. Kids who use it really understand the concepts and actually understand word problems.

The basics are covered very well, in greater depth than American books. American books tend to cover everything shallowly, it might be necessary to supplement some peripheral topics to meet state standards in the same grades as now, such as negative numbers and coordinate graphing. Those are done in later years than we generally do.