Reader comments
Lawyers for FLDS may sue over raid
176 comments | Read story
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
Try one more time | 10:55 p.m. June 13, 2008
I have seen the men on A.T.V's ride up to the gate and fence at the YFZ
ranch and they darn sure do have rifles and handguns with them!!That is a known
fact--Many ,many people could tell you the same thing,but they do not want to
get into anything with you folks that think everything the FLDS from out there
tell them is pure truth.The neighbors that are separated from them only by a
wire fence know for sure they are armed at all times because they will ride up
to the fence in a very menacing way.I'm sure that there are alot of the
people on the ranch are good decent people,but the majority aren't..
Capt. Smash | 10:59 p.m. June 13, 2008
When the U.S. Senate voted in September, 2007, on whether to restore habeas
corpus protections for those detained by the United States, the senators who
would emerge as the presumptive Democratic and Republican nominees for president
parted company.
Illinois Democrat Barack Obama embraced the basic Constitutional principle that individuals who are detained by the U.S. government have a right to challenge their detention -- no matter where they are held.
Arizona Republican John McCain rejected the wisdom of the founders of the American experiment and voted against restoring habeas corpus protections for foreign suspects held at Guant�namo Bay, Cuba, and others who are detained by U.S. authorities.
Today, the Supreme Court said Obama was right and McCain was wrong.
Obama 08/12
Illinois Democrat Barack Obama embraced the basic Constitutional principle that individuals who are detained by the U.S. government have a right to challenge their detention -- no matter where they are held.
Arizona Republican John McCain rejected the wisdom of the founders of the American experiment and voted against restoring habeas corpus protections for foreign suspects held at Guant�namo Bay, Cuba, and others who are detained by U.S. authorities.
Today, the Supreme Court said Obama was right and McCain was wrong.
Obama 08/12
Comments continue below
Re: Try One More Time | 11:22 p.m. June 13, 2008
So you say you saw them ride up to the fence with guns. You assume this means
they are "guards." The media said that there were no guns found at
the ranch. Kinda makes it hard to believe they have armed guards if no guns
were found. If they really did have guns, maybe they were just out hunting, or
shooting for fun.
I have personally been through Colorado City many times, and nobody followed me around in a menacing manner. I have eaten at the Mark Twain restaurant in Colorado City, hung out at there city park, and even bought stuff at one of their grocery stores. They did stare at me funny when I walked into their store in a pair of shorts and bought something, but the outside world does the same thing to them when they go shopping at Wal Mart.
Sorry, my personal experience has proven different than Flora or Carolyn Jessop would suggest.
I have personally been through Colorado City many times, and nobody followed me around in a menacing manner. I have eaten at the Mark Twain restaurant in Colorado City, hung out at there city park, and even bought stuff at one of their grocery stores. They did stare at me funny when I walked into their store in a pair of shorts and bought something, but the outside world does the same thing to them when they go shopping at Wal Mart.
Sorry, my personal experience has proven different than Flora or Carolyn Jessop would suggest.
Wild Bill | 11:39 p.m. June 13, 2008
I am not an FLDS member. I am LDS. I am also an American. I have very strong
beliefs about victimless crimes no victim no crime.
As far as the FLDS being perfect they are not, nor am I, are you. I am sure there are a few cases of underage marriage. Do you prosacute all people for the crimes of a few?
I do wonder however if the underage girls were with children when the law was 14 years old as it was several yeras ago. Or don't remind us of the facts.
I am sure the FLDS when moving to Texas did so with
the 14 year old marriage limit in mid. When Texas
changed the law it cannot use that law against them.
I am curious how anyone would accept the CPS version
of the facts. Complete lies and propaganda. And the
showing the Jeff's marriage photo has zero relevance to this case. He is in jail. Although there is liitle
reason to have his picture use as evidence of abuse by the FLDS parents they did it as a public relations issue.
Courts seem to use emtion rather than the facts.
PUT UP OR SHUT
As far as the FLDS being perfect they are not, nor am I, are you. I am sure there are a few cases of underage marriage. Do you prosacute all people for the crimes of a few?
I do wonder however if the underage girls were with children when the law was 14 years old as it was several yeras ago. Or don't remind us of the facts.
I am sure the FLDS when moving to Texas did so with
the 14 year old marriage limit in mid. When Texas
changed the law it cannot use that law against them.
I am curious how anyone would accept the CPS version
of the facts. Complete lies and propaganda. And the
showing the Jeff's marriage photo has zero relevance to this case. He is in jail. Although there is liitle
reason to have his picture use as evidence of abuse by the FLDS parents they did it as a public relations issue.
Courts seem to use emtion rather than the facts.
PUT UP OR SHUT
Interloper | 6:22 a.m. June 14, 2008
Polygamy, child abuse and incest are integral to the FLDS lifestyle, that is
what sets it apart from the instances of such behaviors in mainstream society.
The patriarchs believe they must have at least three wives to get a first-class
seat in Heaven, which requires multiple marriage. Women, meanwhile, can only
get to Heaven by being invited by males, according to FLDS men. That means that
dissatisfying the patriarchs means damnation in their view. These have woven a
very stealthy net that entraps everyone but the few leaders at the top of the
hierarchy.
Capt.. Smash | 12:23 p.m. June 14, 2008
To those of you who feel that Texas violated the constitution rights of the FLDS
members should think witch candidate best supports the constitutional rights of
others.
"The Supreme Court yesterday rendered a decision which I think is one of the worst decisions in the history of this country," McCain said.
So holding people illegally, without charges, without legal recourse or any other basic rights is perfectly fine in McCain's head. McCain should know better than anyone how wrong that is. How long until Americans are held indefinitely in the same fashion?
"The Supreme Court yesterday rendered a decision which I think is one of the worst decisions in the history of this country," McCain said.
So holding people illegally, without charges, without legal recourse or any other basic rights is perfectly fine in McCain's head. McCain should know better than anyone how wrong that is. How long until Americans are held indefinitely in the same fashion?
Emma from Illinois | 4:53 p.m. June 14, 2008
I think the FLDS should sue for everything that the State of Texas did to them.
Especially, mothers held agaist their will, after showing their birth
certificates, proof of age, CPS knew, for goodness sake, a 37 year old woman was
held as a child. Women were forced to give birth with vultures all around them
waiting to take their precious babies. Children suffered horribly at the hands
of CPS! For people-CPS-to knowingly harm a child is horrible! They claim to be
protecting children, but insted rip them away from loving mothers, have 2 year
old little girls walking around like zombies. These are the people that are out
there to protect our children? What, is our constitution being ignored? I say
down with Mcain, go OBAMA!!!!! These are human people, being treated like
animals, cattle. Everyone in this country should be protected by our
constitution, regardless of race, religion, or any other aspect that makes them
different. Please, sue these government officials, so that this may never happen
again! Speaking with many people in my area, we see this as a gross injustice
pushed on these people, and many of us are there to back them up!
The Truth of the Matter | 10:51 p.m. June 14, 2008
"For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then
not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of
the same:" (Romans 13:3)
In my view, both the FLDS and CPS may have a lot to answer for. Please join me in praying that the true evildoers on both sides will be swiftly exposed, judged, and prosecuted.
Unlike mentioned in a previous post, nursing mothers and babies did not get their day in court, when their bond was broken by a 2-month separation. However, no teenage girl should have to choose between polygamy and escape.
In my view, both the FLDS and CPS may have a lot to answer for. Please join me in praying that the true evildoers on both sides will be swiftly exposed, judged, and prosecuted.
Unlike mentioned in a previous post, nursing mothers and babies did not get their day in court, when their bond was broken by a 2-month separation. However, no teenage girl should have to choose between polygamy and escape.
To Interloper: | 5:43 a.m. June 16, 2008
Sorry, but cousin marriage is not considered incest by the majority of states in
the union, including Texas. Also, the United States is the ONLY Western country
that has any restrictions on marrying cousins at all. In fact, it used to be
standard practice in this country, and in most others. An estimated 80% of all
marriages in the history of the world are between cousins, and 20% of marriages
today are between cousins. I personally think it's a little gross, but
it's certainly not my place to tell somebody else they can't do it in
a state where it's legal.
I actually find it very hypocritical of the Texas authorities to say for years that 14 year olds are capable of getting married and consenting to sex, but then raise the limit the second a religious group they don't like moves into the area. I don't agree with that idea either, but they didn't consider it child abuse at all until the polygamists moved in.
When the non FLDS communities have much larger teen pregnancy rates than the FLDS community does, that argument goes out the window unless you're willing to prosecute each of those mothers, too.
I actually find it very hypocritical of the Texas authorities to say for years that 14 year olds are capable of getting married and consenting to sex, but then raise the limit the second a religious group they don't like moves into the area. I don't agree with that idea either, but they didn't consider it child abuse at all until the polygamists moved in.
When the non FLDS communities have much larger teen pregnancy rates than the FLDS community does, that argument goes out the window unless you're willing to prosecute each of those mothers, too.
Janet | 7:06 a.m. June 16, 2008
To: re: Physician | 9:38 a.m. June 13, 2008
Whomever posted the comment under the name "Physician" used a quote from a recent article on the TRUTHWILLPREVAIL.org under the headline of "Letters to the Governor" if you'd like to read the full article.
Whomever posted the comment under the name "Physician" used a quote from a recent article on the TRUTHWILLPREVAIL.org under the headline of "Letters to the Governor" if you'd like to read the full article.
Re: To Interloper: | 5:43 a.m | 11:30 a.m. June 16, 2008
It's not "hypocritical of the Texas authorities to say for years that
14 year olds are capable of getting married and consenting to sex, but then
raise the limit the second a religious group they don't like moves into the
area." If they were legal marriages there would be no problem.
You should check the marriage license requirements before you post:
"Under 18: If either party is under the age of 18, they must be accompanied by parents.
� If under the age of 16, Texas law requires that the couple receives a court order before being allowed to marry."
And No cousin marriages are allowed either (Sorry)
So they still could get married to 14 year olds if they wanted to. But they'd have to do it legally, which means a court order (no way any judge would give one to a 50 year old to marry a 14 year old) and only one wife.
And about the non-flds teen pregnancy rate, the difference is, the non-flds pregnant teens are fathered by teens in consensual relationships. Not forced, arranged marriages to 50 year old men.
You should check the marriage license requirements before you post:
"Under 18: If either party is under the age of 18, they must be accompanied by parents.
� If under the age of 16, Texas law requires that the couple receives a court order before being allowed to marry."
And No cousin marriages are allowed either (Sorry)
So they still could get married to 14 year olds if they wanted to. But they'd have to do it legally, which means a court order (no way any judge would give one to a 50 year old to marry a 14 year old) and only one wife.
And about the non-flds teen pregnancy rate, the difference is, the non-flds pregnant teens are fathered by teens in consensual relationships. Not forced, arranged marriages to 50 year old men.
Johnny Utah #9 | 11:33 a.m. June 16, 2008
All they have to do if prove one case of abuse, and their lawsuits will be put
to an end.
It shouldn't be too hard, find a pregnant teen not leaglly married and the raid was justified.
It shouldn't be too hard, find a pregnant teen not leaglly married and the raid was justified.
polygamy is safe | 12:12 p.m. June 16, 2008
The FLDS cannot be prosecuted for polygamy because they do not marry civily.
Trying to prosecute them would not hold water because then you would have to
prosecute people that commit adultery and fornicate, gays, lesbians. If you did
that all we would have in the prisons are congressmen and ex-presidents.
Re: polygamy is safe | 12:12 p.m | 12:51 p.m. June 16, 2008
You're absolutely right, they shouldn't and won't be prosecuted
for polygamy. Since, as you said they do not marry "civily". Since
their marriage is not recognised by the state...they will be prosecuted for Sec.
21.11. INDECENCY WITH A CHILD. Which states (a) A person commits an offense if,
with a child younger than 17 years and not the person's spouse, whether the
child is of the same or opposite sex, the person:
(1) engages in sexual contact with the child or causes the child to engage in sexual contact; or
(2) with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person"
Polygamy is fine by me, just don't practice it with underage children. That is the real crime that is being committed.
(1) engages in sexual contact with the child or causes the child to engage in sexual contact; or
(2) with intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person"
Polygamy is fine by me, just don't practice it with underage children. That is the real crime that is being committed.
Hey now | 1:41 p.m. June 16, 2008
I think texas has the ability to fix this and cover their butts. All they have
to do is raise the age of consent to 38. Then all those children they kidnapped
will still be children. It's not they haven't thought of this before.
The principle is the same, only the degree is different.
Richard | 12:41 a.m. June 17, 2008
To those that say Texas cannot prosecute the FLDS for Polygamy are just
"barely" right. But Texas CAN prosecute them for BIGAMY. This is
because Texas (and Utah) have written their laws so they have a
"loophole" to prosecute the FLDS and polgamists. In other States it
is just Shacking Up, but because the Texas Law allows for "Informal"
(Common-law marriages) and because those Common-law marriages are still LEGAL
marriages for a person who be Common-law married more than once (at the same
time) allows Texas to make the stretch to Bigamy. And they are thinking of
doing just that. Just type "FLDS Texas Bigamy" into any search engine
and you can read how the Texas AG is thinking of doing just that.
Janet | 2:10 p.m. June 17, 2008
To: Thoroughbreds | 5:56 p.m. June 13, 2008
>
I personally know five converts to the FLDS faith and I could list the names of twelve others that I know of but do not know personally. One joined our faith three or four years ago and he is the newest that I know of. How do you explain that? My own father was a convert, he came with his parents when he was eighteen and his father was a holy roller. I think that�s pretty far from Mormon blood that�s pure without spot, go figure. We do not marry outside our own faith and I didn�t think the LDS did either but you learn something new every day.
>
I personally know five converts to the FLDS faith and I could list the names of twelve others that I know of but do not know personally. One joined our faith three or four years ago and he is the newest that I know of. How do you explain that? My own father was a convert, he came with his parents when he was eighteen and his father was a holy roller. I think that�s pretty far from Mormon blood that�s pure without spot, go figure. We do not marry outside our own faith and I didn�t think the LDS did either but you learn something new every day.
zxcvbnm | 6:33 p.m. June 17, 2008
Richard....Texas may try to stretch the bigamy statute to bust the FLDS.....I just hope they are ready for a supreme court test case.
Texas has already stated that the California Gay marraiges better stay in California......wouldn't it be funny if two guys married in California married two married lesbian women here in Texas then co-habitated. That would certainly stir the pot..married homosexuals legally married in one state but legally married in Texas......thats one big bigamy. It would force Texas to recognize the gay marraige to prosecute the heterosexual marraige.
no excuse | 8:30 p.m. June 17, 2008
Even if CPS has a strong defense, that is no excuse for the emotional trauma
that these innocent children have suffered at their hands. If there are more
people like the physician that posted his comments on some of the children he
has personally treated and they are called as witnesses as well as the children
themselves, to tell their story in court, the jury will see. despite
CPS�s good intentions, that they were wrong and it will be
a major victory for the FLDS and an embarrassment to the state of Texas. The
fact that they were polygamists will not even matter.
Grandpa Phil | 11:18 a.m. June 19, 2008
To "Go Ahead and Sue", I am afraid you are mistaken. The Texas
lawyers will not have the opportunity to retry the purpose of the removal of the
children from their families. The deprivation of Constitutional rights will be
contingent upon the information in hand at the time of the deprivation.
Information found out later that may justify any of CPS's actions is
irrevelant to the case at hand. Was the removal of the children justified under
Texas law? We already have a determination of that from both the Appellate and
Supreme Courts. Were the children's and parents rights violated as a
result of that removal? Rhetorical question. Will the lawyers be able to dig
into FLDS practices and expose unknown evils and horrors? NO, because they are
irrelevant to the Constitutional issues driving the suits. Do the
Constitutionalists among us hope to Heaven that the FLDS sue Texas, the Sheriff,
CPS, Judge Walther, Ms. Voss and anyone else associated with this travesty for
everything they have? Another rhetorical question.
Grandpa Phil | 11:21 a.m. June 19, 2008
"Anonymous 10:39", it is known that, at the time of the raid, the
"guard tower" you referred to was unfinished and was not in use.
There was never any armed guard in the tower preventing anyone from coming or
going. Please get your facts straight; they are counter-productive to your
bigotted remarks.
Grandapa Phil | 11:31 a.m. June 19, 2008
Anonymous 1:16 PM, in that case, we ask that you please stop any and all actions
related to breeding as you will surely pass the disease of bigotry on to your
offspring. That is a disease the world needs to stamp out.
Grandpa Phil | 11:45 a.m. June 19, 2008
To "bring on the lawsuit, FLDS" at 2:39 pm, you stated, "I am
quite confident that CPS and the State of Texas have enough evidence for a good,
solid defense". We military follk know that the best defense is a good
offense. It has already been shown that CPS and the State of Texas did not have
the evidence for any kind of offense. Evidence found in retrospect will do no
good as the suits will be tried soley with the information on hand at the time
the deprivations of civil rights took place. They can't go digging through
1000 boxes of "evidence" now and hope to come up with something that
will justify what they did. It won't matter. It will only matter of they
knew it at the time they stole those kids away. If they knew it them, they
would have presented it in court to keep the kids in custody. They had NOTHING
at the time; that is why the Appellate Court ordered the lower court ruling be
vacated.
I hope the suits are successful. Crime doesn't pay, but it surely should cost the crooks something.
I hope the suits are successful. Crime doesn't pay, but it surely should cost the crooks something.
Grandpa Phil | 11:58 a.m. June 19, 2008
zxcvbnm is a genius. That is a hilarious scenario. Well done.
Jim | 9:11 p.m. July 10, 2008
I hope that FLDS lawyers do their job right and bankrupt Texas. The state is
full of fruitcakes who think that "their way" is the only one for all
of us. I hope the ACLU pursues this matter on a federal level and sues the
state for religious persecution which is, as we all know, what this is really
all about. This is the only incident I know of where the "concern for the
child's protection" resulted in the children of an entire community
being seized. I hope that people from all over Texas send money to a fund set
up to help defray legal costs for the upcoming FLDS legal actions. How long
before the rest of us get the "knock on the door" in the middle of the
night?????
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
- 4
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Related content
- Paul returns after being out 1:04 a.m.
- Nets finally win 1:04 a.m.
- Olympus downs Box Elder 1:03 a.m.
- Saint Mary's next for Aggies 1:03 a.m.
- Cougars look to bounce back 1:03 a.m.
- Battle goes to PG's Hamson 1:03 a.m.
- Snow hopes to snap bowl game skid 1:03 a.m.
- U.S. gets favorable World Cup draw 1:03 a.m.
- Utah's Wynn healing up 1:03 a.m.
- World Cup skiing 1:01 a.m.
- Ed Smart 'appalled' at testimony
- Mr. Football 2009: Tuni Kanuch
- 5A high school football All-State
- Miller predicted Tiger's rough road
- Utah Jazz going green with unis
- 4A high school football: All-State
- Harpring's NBA career is over
- Nutty Putty Cave to be sealed today
- MVPs wrap up stellar prep careers
- Jazz: Miles, Kirilenko to play Friday
- Hall reprimanded by MWC
410 - Why is Y. ignoring spew of hatred?294
- BYU says Hall incident resolved247
- Letters: Liberal because LDS237
- 2 citations issued at Y.-U. game189
- Hate not limited to 1 in-state rivalry184
- Aggies shoot past Cougars179
- Max Hall: a fixture in rivalry lore118
- N.Y. Senate rejects gay marriage118
- Unbeaten BYU takes trip to Logan104
Trolley Square's annual Holiday Open House will feature visits with...
That does it — I'm having an affair! Thanks to Tiger Woods, David...
First, a big thank you to all who posted questions here for me to ask...
Latest comments
and they are correct. Good grief.
In the wake of a great, competitive game all people can talk about is Max...
For those who keep saying there are other places where you can go "to...
Boozer is just doing and showing what he has always had, Talent! As long as...
Condolences to the LeBaron family! He was the mission Pres in South Africa...
I've enjoyed reading Dick Harmon's articles through the years. An enduring...
I think we have found our stride. But we need to bring in one more player to...
to make a move until nearer the deadline. You can't get the best player until...
"If this team had an interior Defense for 48 minutes they would contend. "...
What have you done for me lately, Boozer? Well, lately Boozer has been...
Advertisements
How long until Americans are held indefinitely in the same fashion? After that how long until the torture starts? What about the confessions gained under torture? This is the wrong path to walk McCain. I thought you were experienced. I guess experience is only valuable if you learned something along the way.
�My Friends I will not only change the constitution to make sure that women do not have the right choose; I will repeal there right to vote. Further, when I am President, I pledge to nominate Supreme Court Justices who will ignore the constitution to the best of their ability."