Headline "Summit targets FLDS" the very name of the headline states its
unconstitutional, Government/ Law enforcement should never target any Religious
group, they should be targeting Crimes. I hope the federal Government or someone
stops this Blatant Attack on THE U.S.A. that is if this Headline is Accurate
news, Im not sure anymore.
Ok, I'm still waiting for the "charges" that were suppose to come out of the CPS
investigation. I read about a lot of CYA from local and state authorities after
this flap and I'm still waiting for some kind of proof. A bunch of embarrased
law (?) enforcers meeting in Utah means nothing. Where's the proof. Put up or
shut up. You know what's really scary? People who don't have the money
to get lawyers and fight these people often get rolled over. Often it's just an
abuse of the poor. Sad, sad, sad!!!
I think it's great something is being done, and the sharing of information going
on. This whole flds needs a heads up that certain things aren't allowed to
happen in the name of religon... keep the lines open and inforce our laws.
What are they targeting?Our entire "main stream" culture has
completely denigrated the idea of marriage. Multiple partners throughout a life
is considered normal. People marry and divorce or never marry at all....So, what are they targeting? Perhaps, that these groups actually seem to
value their children and don't throw them away?
Good. It's about time that religious prisons were shut down, no matter where
they go. There has to be a line somewhere before whatever takes place to get
underage girls to have sex with their creepy old uncles. Before young lives are
denied and robbed so they can be sex slaves. This isn't religion. Go get 'em.
Its unbelievable that a government agency is targeting a specific religion.
There is something we tend to forget. We have freedom of religion until that
religion puts someone or something at risk of danger or abuse of any type.
Including, verbal, mental, physical, and sexual. Talk to anyone who was a part
of the FLDS and they are usually open about what went on. The majority of the
people are not bad. They just don't know any different. And when you have one
man telling everyone what to do for everything in your life and it goes on for
generations, and your education and communication is close to non existent, it a
harsh cycle and the government will step in. When you are denying you children
an education to help further their lives, or worse forcing your family to live
in poverty and malnourished, the government will protect the childrens civil
rights. Thats what America is about.
LawbreakersIt's about time law-enforcement agencies targeting these
lawbreakers. For far too long they have been thumbing their noses at the law,
ignoring any laws that they didn't agree with.Forced child
marriages, child rape, kidnapping, welfare fraud, child abuse, slavery, false
imprisonment, denying constitutionally guaranteed basic freedoms, illegally
reassigning women and children to new men, lying to authorities, incest, etc.,
As long as the FLDS are no longer practicing underage marriage --- they need to
be left alone.Prosecute those who are involved in underage marriage
--- let them "repent from afar" with Warren Jeffs.
i would sure like to know if any of the fathers of these many children, who are
receiving benefits of unwed mothers, are being investigated to find out why they
are not caring for their own kids. if you cant feed them, dont breed them.
social security payments, medicaid payments, food stamp payment, etc. why am i,
as a taxpayer, having to pay for all these children who have fathers with enough
money in their pockets to pay off the church every month and make jeffs a
This is NOTHING but smoke and mirrors by Mark Shurtleff to give the appearance
that he's doing something during an election year. Do we really have a more
two-faced politician in our state? It was just a month ago that he held a
meeting with 300 FLDS in St. George and assured them that he wasn't going to
come after them.
"Its unbelievable that a government agency is targeting a specific religion."The government isn't targeting a specific religion, goverment is
targeting the illegal practices of a group of people who have decided that they
are above the law and can do whatever they please, or are told to do by their
"prophet," whether it's legal or not.Hiding behind the excuse that
this is simply what we believe doesn't make it right.If we start
allowing personal religious beliefs to trump the law, we might as well abolish
all laws, because all anyone would have to do to get away with breaking any law
would be to start their own religion and then declare that they were no longer
going to follow a certain law because it violated their religious beliefs.
Trust me, I'm no fan of people who suck the welfare system. However, being on
welfare isn't against the law, nor is it any reason to target a religion. If
you want to make welfare illegal then go about it legally; going after the FLDS
because they're on welfare is wrong.PS Did you know the YFZ was not
on welfare? I had thought they were until I actually did some research...
It's so petty to target a peaceful group to pull public attention from problems
that really should be being addressed like illegal immigration, drugs, and
secular violence.The problem is that they are running out of cheap
buzzwords like "compound" and "child abuse".I know, maybe they could
start calling them a "terrorist organization" or a "hate group".The
problem authorities have is there is no "fear" of the FLDS. If they can somehow
generate some "fear", then they can throw millions at the nonexistant problem
while the masses cheer.
I wounder when those of the Islamic faith start to practice polygamy in the US
if they will be prosecuted?
I agree with leelee (above). While we cannot condone what the state authorities
and CPS did, that does not nulify the underlying issues within the FLDS. Give
it time - let the authorities "work together" in completing their investigation
and bring to justice those who have committed real and veifiable crimes.
I think as long as they are doing what they do with adult women, who are we to
say they are wrong?? Betty, your right why are we paying for these peoples
children? Oh yeah, America is about helping the poor. If you look at it, a lot
more people who are not FLDS receive food stamps and welfare. Lets not single
these people out because they have different views then some of us! Seems like
LDS people in Utah have such a hard time accepting people that are different.PS You want to get mad about something, Ask your stake president how much
welfare he is giving out in his stake, the number is astounding!! And this is
our tithing money!!!
And it's not about targeting a "specific religion" it's about targeting specific
crimes! It's about time!
In answer to your question, the conservative columnist Mark Steyn noted that if
it's stump-toothed old white guys marrying teenage girls, then that's disgusting
and needs to be stamped out.If it's Muslim men importing child
brides and having them circumcised, well then that's "celebrating diversity".
@Southern Utah Resident:The meeting from a month ago was of other
Mormon Polygamists and to my knowledge the FLDS was not represented there. What
I saw reported on it was a promise not to go after polygamy and to try and get
the status reduced to a misdemeanor (?) instead of a felony. His promise was
only for the crime of polygamy itself. Child abusers, etc will still be
prosecuted where found.
The FLDS deserve an apology for what happened in Texas and the fact that the
Utah attorney general held their coats while they were doing the act.The FLDS owe an apology to all their young men they kicked out to make room
for polygamy.Perhaps this bad that Texas did will have a good
effect. The FLDS will be forced to take parenting classes that will teach them
to finally become decent parents.
The factions should return to Adam-ondi-Ahman
It has long been established that the best defense is always a good offense.
Sheriff Shurtleff is using this as his defense against what is surely coming his
"Beyond the marriages, authorities have conducted probes into financial crimes
and child abuse. Those investigations have been stymied by a lack of hard
evidence or witnesses willing to step forward."In other words, the
lurid exaggerations of former polygamist women -- some of whom have significant
personal and financial motives to stretch the truth -- are turning out to be
less than factual.And after having seen how the Texas CPS treated
the victims of polygamy, it's not surprising many polygamist wives would not
want to testify against their husbands.Many have concluded it's
better to be a polygamist wife and live with your children than a state's
witness who can only see your kids when the courts allow it.
Welfare fraud is a natural consequence for most polygamists. It is simply
IMPOSSIBLE for the vast majority of men to support 3 or more wives and dozens of
children without government assistance.Warren Jeffs justified the
FLDS reliance on government assistance -- food stamps, medicaid, etc. -- by
teaching the practice of "Bleeding the Beast." In other words, the so-called,
evil outsiders needed to be punished by god (that is, the FLDS) taking as much
from the beast (that is, the rest of us evil, tax-payers) as possible.The FLDS have argued that people living at the YFZ ranch were self-sufficient
because they weren't living on welfare. Maybe not directly, but they refuse to
reveal where the money and resources to purchase and build the ranch came
from.The answer, of course, is that ALL of the money and resources
came from the FLDS who were living in Hildale and Colorado City, where the vast
majority of FLDS were heavily dependent on welfare.
anon, 6:01am: "So, what are they targeting? Perhaps, that these groups actually
seem to value their children and don't throw them away?"you're
kidding me, right? doesn't everyone by now know about the lost boys? and the
systematic belittling of women-- you might as well say that they're throwing
those girl's lives away too.
From reading these comments, you can tell which are written by sick, twisted
women. Rape! Incest! Malnutrition! Polygamy! Food stamps! And on and on.
Yet, to this moment, has any FLDS member (Other than Jeffs, and I am beginning
to wonder about that) of the FLDS church been convicted of ANYTHING? And of
course, old "Harry the Red" Reid, who has recently seen the light and joined the
LDS Church (Reason enough for other LDS to get out!)has to get his warped $0.02
into the entire mess. With him in there, you can bet there will be another
Harry the Red debacle like the mess he caused attempting to shut down a
well-known talk show host. Ruby Ridge, Waco, and now FLDS. Facism
is rampant in this nation. And one writer is correct. When the
Islmao-terrorists start moving in, you can bet the same whinnying naysaying
creeps will be groveling, complimenting them on how well they take care of their
women who would otherwise be destitute, excepting for their polygamous beliefs.
Yep. Wait and see.
I can see that Betty still has not connected with the fact,that the FLDS were
not recieving any stateassistance. When one is blinded by hatred, one is
incapable of seeing anything. Betty, you should get yourself a nice
I wonder if the Federal Attorney has ever heard of the Mann Act.
The outside world seems to forget that Warren Jeffs is a prophet. What he says
will benefit us all.
What the FLDS need to do is quit hiding. I belive the fact they are so off to
themselves was what started this issue in the first place. It's their closed
environment that allowed so much garbage to spread.
What comic book or gossip tabloid have you people been reading? "Re: What are
the targeting" came up with a slew of allegations that have LONG since been
proven false but some recalcitrants insist on repeating them incessantly. Y'all
just make yourselves look stupid when you do that. "leelee" claims the kids
"live in poverty and are malnourished". Where the H*LL did THAT come from?
None of the kids I have seen look even remotely malnourished. On the contrary,
they look healthier than a majority of American kids. It has long ben
established that NONE of the families on the ranch were on welfare but you
people just will NOT give it up. Some of the older adults are on Social
Security but I'm sure the only crime there is the amount of the checks they
worked all of their lives to earn. Shurtleff is going to wish he had left well
enough alone. He and the rest of you need to leave these people alone and let
them get on with their lives. Hold them accountable like everyone else and stop
singling them out and running roughshod over their rights.
James, the Stake President doesn't have control of the "welfare" funds of his
Stake. He has general oversite and provides guidance to his bishops, but has no
direct authority; nor does he have authority to dispense funds - that authority
rests solely with the bishops. And, welfare funds are drawn from Fast Offerings
which is a separate donation made by the members. Welfare assistance is not
provided from your tithing donations.Finally, as you may be aware,
the Church's assistencee is not met to be a permanent and/or long-term program -
it is intended to be for short-term, temporary needs.Just thought
you'd like to know.
"If you look at it, a lot more people who are not FLDS receive food stamps and
welfare."Maybe you could explain how your opinion differs so much
from the actual numbers:33 percent of the residents of Hildale, Utah
and Colorado City, Arizona, whose inhabitants are predominantly FLDS members,
are using food stamps to feed their families, compared to 6.7 percent of Arizona
inhabitants and 4.7 percent of Utah inhabitants outside of these areas.33% FLDS is 5 to 7 times HIGHER than 6.7% or 4.7%
yeah, i guess we should all be in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant if you had
your way, huh?
that the first three comments on all of these stories are always pro-FLDS, it is
like there is a couple of people that are just waiting for the stories to post
and start out the comments. As to one persons comment about freedom of
religion, yes that is true, but with any freedom, if you do the crime, you do
"maybe they can start calling them a "terrorist organization."Did
you know that Washington County used Homeland Security money to fund the wages
of an officer hired to drive Hildale streets. The officer herassed the people
and stopped drivers when he realized they were young girls. Then when an
investigation came out at the purgitory facility where he worked, all of the
sudden he was transfered. (????)If you talked to most the officers
that have had to go out there and patrol, they say it is the most boring route
because NOTHING happens.
To James J,Maybe you don't know what you are talking about and stirring up
madness about. The stake president doesn't give out welfare he supervises it.
The Bishop and the Relief Society president gives out welfare and it is not our
"tithing money" but out of our fast offerings. Realize that the "welfare" is
subsisting those in need not necessarily LDS in the Bishop's area. If the
Bishop doesn't have enough funds then the monies are pooled together in the
stake and disbursed to the needy. If there is an excess of funds then they are
sent into the Church to help other needy families in other areas. The Bishop
also distributes, through the Bishops storehouse, food and other commodities to
the less fortunate in his area. All this comes from the LDS Church's welfare
department which sends thousands of TONS of commodities to earthquake, flood,
hurricane victims throughout the world. Now don't you as an LDS member feel a
little more PROUD for helping out the less fortunate!! Don't get MAD just get in
what is worse, a man marrying two women or a man marrying another man? Anyone who does not uphold marriage between a man and woman, as God's law at
this time, has no right to persecute anyone.
By reading these posts, it's seems the FLDS apologists have forgotten that these
people are breaking the law. Some have posted that "the very name of the
headline states its unconstitutional". Well, the government is also targeting
"Al Qaeda" does that mean all of them have committed crimes against America? No
they haven't...yet. And the same is true of the FLDS people. By in large, as a
group they are committing crimes and and should be prosecuted. I don't really
care if you want to live a polyamyst lifestyle, just don't forcibly "marry" and
rape underaged girls. And guess what, when your "religion" is well known for
arrainged "marriages" of underaged girls, you're going to get "targeted". What
is unconstitutional about investigated a group who regularly commits statutory
I, for one, don't care what your "prophet" says. he is not an honorable man,
and from what I've learned of him, don't think anything he says would benefit
anyone, except maybe the men who follow him wanting blind power over their
I guess this proves why our smartest kids don't go into law enforcement.Can someone let these geniuses know that polygamists don't pose a public
Warren Jeffs is no prophet. well maybe a false prophet. He is a sick man who has
now admitted that he is not the prophet. The outside world has not forgotten
anything. Warren is not, and has never been a prophet.
hmmm ... this sounds a lot like when Hitler targeted the jewish people and used
the media and public forum to brain wash Germany into believing what he was
doing was good for the entire country. Once you start to infringe on the
laws of one group it opens the door to take rights away from the entire whole.
If in fact a certain "family" is committing crimes against a specific child then
absolutely should that child be removed from the home whether it be an FLDS home
or a "normal" home (whatever that might be). I am from a polygamous family
(not FLDS). My father never pushed marriage on me, I graduated from college and
I am currently in grad school, I am not married with ten kids as most Utahns are
at 25, and I come from a LOVING environment that I wouldn't change for the
world. My family also supports itself on $300,000+ annual income ... so welfare
fraud?? Please, at least get your facts straight if you choose to make an
argument. Give away your freedoms and you give away what our country was founded
"In other words, the lurid exaggerations of former polygamist women -- some of
whom have significant personal and financial motives to stretch the truth -- are
turning out to be less than factual."Organized crime families are
involved in murders, extortion, bribery, money laundering, prostitution, drugs,
gambling, etc., etc.There are clear indications of what the FLDS are
doing. Just because their crimes are difficult to prove because of a lack of
hard evidence or witnesses willing to step forward doesn't mean they aren't
breaking the law.Too many ex-FLDS have related the same types of
experiences involving child abuse, kidnapping, welfare fraud, and other crimes
to simply dismiss their testimony as nothing more than "exaggeration."
Re: SLC gal;With respect how well is your/our open environment doing? I would
give you some details based upon todays headlines, but they would have to be
These vile old men are abusing the children, women, boys and the states of
CO,ID,TX UT,NV AND AZ TAXPAYERS ALL UNDER THE FAKE EXCUSE OF FREEDOM OF
RELIGION. The rest of the country is laughing at all these stupid law
enforcement agencies who can't even convict this gang of really dumb
uneducated CRIMINALS ......Shame shame on all the states and especially UT AZ
With all the pro-flds comments and time spent on here, sounds like there are a
bunch of kids being neglected and/or not being cared for.
Thanks for sharing! I'm amazed how many people are still clainming "child
abuse", "welfare fraud", "slavery" with no proof. It will be a dark day when we
throw people in jail because of the suspicious hearts of others. It
seems hating others is unfortunately the "communion of our race", but being
charitable in thought and deed is indeed rare.
==PARODY:PARENTS' RIGHTS TRUMP [ANTI] POLYGAMYORGINAL:PARENTS' RIGHTS TRUMP POLYGAMYSOURCE:
Anyone who has lived around or been around FLDS, and then decides to leave their
cult, knows darn well how evil theses FLDS men are.
many articles in this newspaper have stated that the polygamist compounds in
utah and arizona have many women who are committing welfare fraud by claiming
they are single mothers to the government, but living a life of being so called
wives to men who should be supporting these children. if the men can give a
percentage of their income to to the prophet jeffs, they can give that money to
support their children. and for the old men on social security, they keep
having more and more children on their younger and younger wives, and we are
paying social security for the children of supposedly old people.stop
having kids you cannot support and the taxpayers will stop complaining about
We should either prosecute polygamy or repeal the laws against it. If we are
not going to prosecute a crime we should take it off the books. If we have it
on the books we should prosecute it.
To re Betty, If the mothers claim they do not know the whereabouts of
their husbands when they do. If they claim to be single mothers when their
husbands are very present. If there husbands work long hours for a company that
does not pay them because they known the state will give the people money in the
long run, than there is fraud. Lieing on a welfare application is a crime
and can and should be prosecuted.
To Barny: Muslims are already practicing polygamy in the United States.
Just hunt down the New York Times article from last year about all the
polygamous Muslims in New York City. google the issue and you will find
references to Muslims practicing polygamy elsewhere in the United States. The
day of Muslim polygamists in the United States is now.
First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--because I was not a
communist;Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak
out--because I was not a socialist;Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I did not speak out--because I was not a trade unionist;Then they came
for the Jews, and I did not speak out--because I was not a Jew;Then they
came for me--and there was no one left to speak out for me.
by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945Live and let live is correct.
To James J: Polygamy as practiced by the FLDS is an abomination. Jacob
stated that the Lord delights in the chastity of women, and the FLDS have no
authorization from the Lord, are trying to justify themselves by
misunderstanding the past and stand condemned in his sight.
At Least desert news doesnt show bias in its reporting, which is very good
Summit targets FLDS? More warspeak from our government? War on Terror? War on
poverty? War on drugs? War on education? War on Native Americans? Now its war on
the FLDS? War cannot be waged on things or ideas, only on people! Is genocide
next on the government menu? No matter how repugnant you may think the FLDS
ideology is, if we allow government to continue the persecution of this group we
are approving the downfall of our nation and opening the door to more government
Why do Utahs tolerate an attorney general who promises he will not try to
enforce the law? When will the people of the state wake up and elect someone
who honors his oath to uphold the state constitution, which specifically bans
plural marriage? I used to defend Shertleff, however I have realized that
his rationalistic appraoch is based on assuming the law is only what he says it
is. The law is what it is written as, and if he will not enforce it, he should
be replaced. If the residents of Utah are really OK with large
polygamous groups in their midst they should repeal the anti-polygamy law.
Until that time the state should prosecute those who willfully and knowingly
break the law.
For all polygamy supporters--GET A LIFE AND ONE WIFE! Treat people the way you
would have them treat you. Try respecting women other then just yourselves. Try
to be a real person and quit abusing.
To many people sticking their nose in others businessI mind my own
business, I do not make up stories and hurt someoneUtah is a corrupt
stateGossiping about new comers
To "Self-sufficient Delusion"You said:"The FLDS have argued
that people living at the YFZ ranch were self-sufficient because they weren't
living on welfare. Maybe not directly, but they refuse to reveal where the money
and resources to purchase and build the ranch came from."The answer,
of course, is that ALL of the money and resources came from the FLDS who were
living in Hildale and Colorado City, where the vast majority of FLDS were
heavily dependent on welfare."The money to purchase the land for the
YFZ ranch has come from an elderly FLDS member who has made his FORTUNE in the
manufacture of airplane parts; he even has a Federal Defense contract. (Note:
Now that I've said this, people like "Self-sufficient Delusion" will do
everything in their power to make sure he loses it.)I'm an Atheistic
Jewish man living in New York City, yet I know this to be a fact. How come YOU
don't know where the money came from? Or maybe you just don't WANT to know
where it came from . . .
To Andy, If you do a study you will find that several other FLDS people
besides Jeffs have been convicted. Utah has gotten other convictions on charges
of statutory rape. The mismanagement of funds was so bad that most of their
fiscal institutions have been taken over by the government. On the
welfare fraud issue. How exactly do you prove welfare fraud. Is a lady going
to come forward and say "I told the government that I did not know where my
husband was, but that was a lie". On the other hand, even in Utah what
percentage of the state budget goes to support the FLDS? Somehow I think taxes
are spent much more on running schools, building roads, building Universities
and so on than on supporting the FLDS.
To Andy: Reid has been a member of the LDS Church since long before he
was elected to the senate. Reid joined the church in about 1960, which is
before the vast majority of church members joined. If his joining the church is
recent, than I wonder what makes someone a long time member.
So whats makes you such an expert? However, I do not agree with your BS.
Please try again.
It is about time that law enforcement goes after these cults that commit welfare
fraud and molest underage girls. They are pure evil.
James J, If you do not want to contribute to helping the sick and the
poor, no one is forcing you to. As far as I know, these efforts are mainly run
by fast offerings as has been said above. However, I do know that many
stakes exceed their fast offering intake in expenditure, and some tithing funds
may be used to help the poor, or at least to keep bishop's storehouses and other
operational parts of the welfare program running. Then there is the
horrendous amount of money spent by the Perpetual Education Fund. Can you
believe it, they are actually paying for poor people to get educated. OK, that
is just such a stupid gripe, that I can't continue it. It is totally
ridiculous. If you do not want to pay fast offerings, tithing or
anything else to the church you are free to do so. No one will throw you in
jail. Taxes are a different story. You will go to jail for not paying
them. Anyway, the real question is why should the state provide foodstamps to
families where the father makes a good living?
Put a fence around UtahThe real criminals are in chargeThe Judicial
Mis Conduct commission refuses to act
--"Too many ex-FLDS have related the same types of experiences involving child
abuse, kidnapping, welfare fraud, and other crimes to simply dismiss their
testimony as nothing more than "exaggeration.""--Yes, all three of
them, Flora Caroline and the Wall girl have said it so many times and are making
so much money off of it, it MUST be true.Flora sounds like she was
abused, but Caroline and the Wall girl dont come across as abused, Just very
angry. We know how bitter and angry women can get. So 1 abuse victim
and 2 angry women have said it so many times that we ignore crime in our
neighbor hood and form "special" task forces when we could just walk in and talk
to these people. WHY?!
They are the American Taliban. Sex slavery is an evil act. Warren Jeffs is a
Maybe if you stopped breaking the law, instead of justifying why the FLDS, and
only the FLDS, have a right to break the law with impunity, the government would
leave you alone."Live and let live" only applies if you aren't
breaking the law.The sooner the FLDS learn that, the better.
To re:James J (2nd one), Hildale Utah has about 2,000 people, so 33%
means that about 670 are getting foodstamps. Utah has 2.6 million people, so
about 100,000 people getting foodstamps and such (actually, I think it is
higher, but it is a nice round number). This gives us 600 FLDS and 99,400
non-FLDS recieving such assistance in Utah. This means that less than 1% of the
welfare expenditures in Utah go to the FLDS. I am not sure what percentage of
the Utah budget goes to welfare, but as you see from these figures very little
of your tax dollars are going to the FLDS.
Dig a little deeper and you'll be able to understand HOW he won the contract and
made his fortune using strictly FLDS labor that was grossly under-reported so
that the families of the men could continue to collect welfare benefits.
I am not FLDS or LDS but seems strange to me that LDS Prophet hasn't had any
revelations since Joseph Smiths's time. Oh, i've heard the rant about: "We
don't need any more revelation, we have enough...." Really?? I say impeach and
get out of office all those states that just came from that summit. I have no
animosity here, just wonder why the LDS did absolutely nothing to come to the
aid of their FLDS brothers and sisters? I mean the church, not individual LDS.
And , let's not say the FLDS are not mormons, they surely are....Any crimes, i
say prosecute, but in re: polygamy, who gives a darn nowadays? I stopped in
Motel in Idaho and desk clerk introduced his wife and her "sister" I said: she
is your plural wife, don't sweat it...he didn't deny it, only smiled and handed
me my key to my room. To person who put down Jeffs, didn't Hinckley say in re:
progression on becoming Gods or as man is God once was, he said he wasn't sure
of that couplet, it was only a couplet....Mormonism is indeed "progressing" and
evolving, trying to fit into mainstream christianity.
Speaking of Flora, y'all need to read the article written by Flora Jessop's
guardian, Martha Barlow Jessop, entitled "The Truth About Flora Jessop". It is
a real eye opener about why Flora has made the claims she has. She is MUCH less
believable than Caroline ever was. I would never listen to an "anti-anything"
as a source of information on any subject. if I want an objective answer
regarding the beliefs of baptists, Mormans, or FLDS, I will go and ask someone
in those faiths, NOT someone who left for whatever reason. No reasonable (or
reasoning) person would.
Re; Freedom MannOkay, so first we have "where did they get the money
for the YFZ ranch." (This was raised by "Self-sufficient Delusion")I answered that question and now "Re; Freedom Mann" is here to tell me that
the FLDS Airplane parts tycoon who purchased the YFZ ranch made (and continues
to make) his fortune all with FLDS "slave labor!"If that were so,
"Re; Freedom Mann," then the Defense Department could pretty handily yank his
contract but that obviously hasn't happened.Indeed, anyone with
government contracts is often obliged to meet certain obligations towards their
laborers. Whatever FLDS does, it's somehow ALWAYS WRONG and AWFUL!
To: John LambertJohn I think you misunderstood what I was
saying. One was a response to Betty, and one was a response to another guy
saying that more FLDS people are on welfare then anyone else. While, as a
percentage he might be correct, as far as numbers go hes not. Betty was saying
that just because they are FLDS they shouldnt get welfare. I have no problem
paying welfare to people who need it, but I do have a problem with people living
off it, or living off the church. This is why I no longer pay tithing or fast
offerings. I got sick of working 2 jobs and paying my 10% just to see people say
that there are no jobs and sit on their buts, all the time receiving help from
the church. One question for you John, What is a good living? I had 9 kids in my
family, (typical mormon family) my dad made $70-80 a year and we always went
without: food, clothing, cars. So what is a good income? Let me get this out,
I'm for helping people who need help, Not to the extent of living off the help
The problem isn't so much that the FLDS engages in cult activity. It's
that the Mormon cult activity of the FLDS conflicts with the Christian cult
mentality that prevails in Texas, and is promulgated by CPS.This
time the courts in Texas recognized that two wrongs don't make a right.There's always next time.
You missed a few. Here are just a couple:At 15, Debbie Palmer became
the third wife to Winston Blackmore's father -- a man 42 years her elder. She
fled the commune in 1988. She said the B.C. government has evidence in its own
birth records that will prove adult men impregnated underage girls. "We know of girls as young as 13 involved in trafficking across the border,"
says Debbie Palmer, who now lives in Saskatchewan. "And some have been exposed
to horrifically abusive situations." To get an idea of just how
complex the family relationships are in Bountiful, consider this. By marrying
Ray Blackmore, Debbie became a step-mother to her step-mother and as a result, a
step-grandmother to herself and to her sister Jane, who is a year younger than
Debbie. After Ray Blackmore died, Debbie was reassigned first to
54-year-old Sam Ralston. By the time she left the community, she had had three
different husbands and eight children. She was never legally married.
grew up in the FLDS. I know first-hand the abuse that takes place under the
ruse of religious freedom. In August of 2006, when Warren Jeffs entered the
courtroom most people saw a pathetic image of a man in chains. I saw my former
teacher - the man who intimidated us and who eventually became the one to whom
we were to declare unquestioning obedience as our Prophet. As I viewed Warren
Jeffs in chains I couldnt help but think about the many women and children still
bound in psychological chains inside the FLDS. When I thought about his chains,
I remembered theirs.Kathy Jo NicholsonFormer FLDS member
You all make the FLDS sound like such a wonderful, peace-loving people. I'd
like to join..can I visit one of their services and see what it's all about for
myself? Do they have any missionaries I can talk to? Seriously, if you have a
problem with people's perception of you, just open the doors so everyone can
come see the truth...even the "evil" Baptists do that!
You obviously don't understand the FLDS culture. They have a communal lifestyle
in which all of the property within the community is owned by the community, no
private property ownership.The FLDS airplane parts "tycoon," was one
of them. So how did he make a fortune? Through the labor of other FLDS men,
whose families were living on welfare. But the tycoon's fortune was really the
FLDS community's fortune.Which is one of the reasons a trustee was
appointed to oversee the FLDS community property, because FLDS leaders were
suspected of mismanaging that trust.If you follow the shell game of
money going from one shared FLDS pocket to another, you can easily see that
welfare money was indirectly used to pay for buying and building the YFZ
ranch.That's not to say, the FLDS didn't invest a huge amount of
sweat equity in building the ranch, but the vast majority of materials and
equipment used to build the ranch were provided through funds provided by the
FLDS communities in Hildale and Colorado City, through the so-called FLDS
Maybe we should arrest and detain anyone who seems different than main stream
because they "might" have committed a crime? So what if "their crimes are
difficult to prove because of a lack of hard evidence?" We could just revoke
the USA constitutional protections and assume that they are "obviously guilty"
until proven innocent. Sort of like how the laws in Mexico work. We
also then need a task force to mandate "main stream behavior" so that its easier
to determine who the possible criminals are. But don't forget that our country
was founded by people who purposely broke laws and resisted those authorities
who oppressed us.
Weak strawmen, but there's still plenty of evidence to support further
investigations of the FLDS.
To Re: Freedom Mann (2) 2:06PMYou are absolutely correct on what you
said. Thanks!!To the rest of the ignorant lamebrain
commenter's who are mostly FLDS. You need to learn what you are talking about
Wouldn't you promise anything if it meant you could get your children back. Let
the children return, let the smoke die down with promises to not abuse and
dominate, then, when the coast is clear, return to the same horrific practices
which have been prevelent since the beginning of the LDS Church. Then explain
it to the children who lives your have ruined and taken away.
We've just witnessed the advent of Nazi Germany right here in America. The judge
who ripped the 400+ children from their mother's arms and gave them to he state,
should be under investigation and thrown in prison for what she has done. Just
one man's opinion.
I'm sure Merrill Jessop could just step forward and clear all of this up. Oh
wait, I forgot, he's in hiding. Coward.
the towns of Colorado City and Hildale receive the most welfare and pay the
least taxes of any towns in their states. its a factplus these fraudulent
obtained food stamps are 'spent' at the church owned grocery store..where they
get reimbursed =double dipping.you are not foolin anyonequit
taking hand outs you self sufficient FLDS and I'll listen to what you have to
FLDS and you won't have complaints! If you don't do anything against the law
you will be left alone. It's interesting (and sad) how groups will cry out
anything that will help their cause. In this case it's the outcry "freedom of
religion" when it is really just wanting to be able to do with women and young
girls as they can. And yes, I have also heard about the welfare scam that they
have. Religion has nothing to do with these things!Sorry, your time is up
and our communities won't take it anymore!
It seems a bit premature to assume that the "evidence" siezed by Texas
in the raid will be admissable in a criminal case. "Good faith" of Texas
authorities has been suspect since day one and only becomes more suspect as
motives and methods of Texas state officials becomes clearer.
What vile old men are married to the young girls, the ones I've heard of that
were adults marrying a young girl, was a 19 year old boy and a teenage girl
under 18. That is really not a big age difference, yes there is still a mature
difference, so that would be an issue. Someone please give facts on how many old
men are married to teenage girls, because this is all I hear.
Polygamy is a crime against women and children. Statistics show that there are
more boys born than girls all through out history. So if the FLDS now will not
perform marriages to underage girls, they will not have an abundance of women to
continue their lifestyle. They could continue to release more of
their males into the wilderness to fend for themselves. This would help their
situation.It is clear that the core values of polygamy within their
religion is evil. The male hirearchy will bully, reassign wives,
and literally scare the heck out of their congregation if they do not sweetly
comply with their brand of laws within their society. They can loose their
families and children if they cross a line that their men do not like. This
keeps them in check.I really do wish to pose the question to
them...how WILL you continue in your lifestyle? LOOK at your statistics of the
births within your compound. There are not enough women to go around!
How come when some people break the laws and don't want to follow or live USA
laws, suddenly they always want to start blaming law abiding citizens as being
Nazis? You people who use this propaganda need to stop breaking USA laws and
quit with all the nonsensical idiotic Nazi Germany BS! Perhaps you belong in
jail as well. There is no doubt in my mind that FLDS are breaking the USA laws.
I have personally known a few of these FLDS deviates.Live the laws
or go to jail!
To anoymous...who just posted. Are you serious? The defense team
of Warren Jeffs is desperately trying to keep the new evidence from being
presented. It involves the spiritual marriage of girls ages 12 to 15. There are many others within the compound who have given birth at very young
ages...there will be lawsuits to follow for the men of the FLDS. It will be
determined by the DNA evidence. They should be shaking in their perverted
Someone said the Sun was not the Sun. Just because they "thought" it was not the
Sun, did it make the Sun not the Sun?
Big talk.These guys aren't going to do nothing. They're only
gathered around in a group like atheist in youtube to console themselves while
they suck their thumbs. They've lost so much ground in the West Texas case that
if you're not blinded by your bias, then you know how much of a liar CPS, TX,
and Sheriff David Doran truly are.I hope their holding of the hands
helped them feel better. So far this has been nothing of a "slam dunk" as George
Tenet said of the case for the Iraq War.
We here in California are more enlightened than the rest of you! The FLDS made
one mistake, they went to Texas. Here in California, no problem! Here in
California we only have one problem, we are all victims of GWB! There are no
absolute truths, no such thing as immoral behavior(who are you to judge anyway?)
and only conservative values are not allowed here! Has anyone seen my joint?
Finally people are seeing the flds for what they are. Or at least finally
commenting on it. It seems that these blogs have been filled with comments from
pro fdls.I have a question for all of those that keep squawking
about the former fdls women (the smart ones) telling lies and also rant on about
there being no evidence against the fdls. Where is the evidence that the women
who escaped are lying?????Where is the evidence that they are NOT
commiting welfare fraud????I think there is more evidence against
them than there is for them.CPS had a job to do and unfortunely they
weren't able to see it through. If the government had sent them to
Guantonamo bay, MAYBE your squawking would be justified. Just because you say
the words "violation of civil rights" doesn't make it true. Go to
the middle east & see what real violations of civil rights are. Or better yet
be a young fdls girl & you would know what a true violation is.
"Where is the evidence that they are NOT commiting welfare fraud????I think there is more evidence against them than there is for them."Guilty until proven innocent, then? Where's the evidence YOU'RE not
committing welfare fraud????Try this for comparison:My
mother's friend's son's cousin told me that his uncle said he heard from a
"reliable" source that you were abusing your children. Now, prove to me it
wasn't true. I won't believe otherwise until you offer me solid proof. We'll
need to X-ray all your children, give them psychological examinations, and take
them to an unknown location for "questioning." We can't assume
guilt just because someone is a member of an unpopular religion. The unpopular
and minorities have the same protections and rights as any other U.S. citizen.
Saying that they're all law breakers doesn't make it true.
The rumor that the FLDS in Texas are on welfare is absolutely wrong, 100%.These are completely self-sufficient people. It seems ignorant people
are willing to believe all the lies the government claimed about these people,
including hoax phone calls, broken bone abuse, 50 year olds raping 16 year olds,
abused boys, a sex bed in their temple, "bleeding the beast or living of
welfare," killing off any deformed children, and 31 underage pregnancies - every
one of them has proven to be false now - 100% lies!Here are the
recent findings of the Texas special Senate Finance Committee by head of Social
Services himself, Albert Hawkins; Child Protective Services falls under Social
Services, so it's in his best interest to try to claim the FLDS have received
public assistance, even if minimal, but he says they have received none:"Albert Hawkins, the state's executive commissioner for health and human
services, said it was unclear whether members of the sect have private
insurance. He also said that officials have found no evidence that anyone from
the sect is receiving any sort of public assistance."Stop ignorantly
believing the all the lies fed to the media by Texas!
"The rumor that the FLDS in Texas are on welfare is absolutely wrong, 100%"The FLDS in Texas are part of one big happy family, tied hip and
shoulders with the rest of the family back in Hildale and Colorado City. Many of
the men have wives in Utah/Arizona and Texas.Cut off all of the
funds from the families left back in Utah and Arizona who ARE living on welfare
and we'll see just how self-sufficient these good fathers are at supporting all
of their families without welfare.
I also am very tired of the pro FLDS claims. Some are here on this board. I've
said till I am blue in the face! There are not enough women for these men to
continue in their lifestyle! There are more men born into this world than
women. Statistics prove it. Because of this, it causes two things,
get rid of the excess boys, and or men, and marry the women at increasingly
younger ages, thus robbing from future generations of women. Their
group cannot help but eventually promote an evil lifestyle. Those young
children are destined to suffer abuse in one way or another.
50% boys and 50% girls born, has nothing to do with marriage. Marriage, and the
ability to succeed in it, depends not solely on ones gender but on their ability
to put the needs of their family before their own desires. Noone can dispute
that women are more able to be caring and selfless than are men and at a younger
age. Young men especially in this day and age are very self absorbed. A very
large segment of our young male population are making babies with girls whom
they never intend to marry, or protect, or even provide for. In the FLDS society
this would never be a problem. Polygamy is the answer and actually gives women
more choices not less.
I think law enforcment should go to compton Ca.and work on gangs if you want to
fight crime. leave the flds alone.
Good for those that the "welfare problem" doesn't apply, however, I know 100%
that a large amount of these people have been involved in it since I used to
work in it.
yeah, the FLDS paid the 400 thousand property tax in texas by selling
cheese...hahahahahahow bout paying property tax in Colorado City and
Hildaleself sufficient????you can't fool the people that
live in southern Utah
Ok....all yall frieking out about the FLDS on the welfare rolls in Utah
and Arizona don't pay if they can't show paternity like everyplace else...if the
men have no income they don't pay ....just like everyplace else. I
haven't seen a food stamp card yet that will allow someone to swipe it at the
court house to pay property taxes. Everyone that is so concerned about
where these people get their money can put their financial business on a public
web site and bare your soul just to be above reproach.......until then get as
good an accountant as FLDS has......Exxon and Ford have a few that might work if
you can afford the bill.
To re: Just Thinking 12:25 p.m.Get your facts straight before you
blather on like a pretended expert.FIRST: Who the heck is Sam
Ralston that Deb was supposedly reassigned to? He might have been one of Deb's
after encounters, but after Ray Blackmore, she willingly married a man by the
name of Charles. SECOND: Deb's third go 'round was with a guy named
Marv. THIRDLY: She participated in all three of her marriages
WILLINGLY. VERY WILLINGLY. BEGGING TO BE MARRIED...WILLINGLY!Now do
you realize how insanely moronic and unbelievable the rest of your comments are
when you can't even get names straight?It was only after her
partially successful attempt at burning down her own house while her children
were asleep, that she conveniently found a reason to "escape" so that she
wouldn't be charged with arson and attempted murder. This is not conjecture;
Deb has openly confessed to setting the fire and describing in great detail her
plans in doing so. But she was never charged because of her "victim" mentality.
Gag!Sounds like you and the lady share a lot of psychological
similarities: a warped sense of reality.
thank God they are kicking some of the young men out of the FLDS group. now
they won't become perverts like their elders.
To FLDS commentors,Just a thought, if you would quit posting here you
could save yourselves a lot of nonesense from the replies of fools. It's a waste
of time to try to educate religious bigots.
It is so nice to see the boards here are not changing. As for the meetng of
minds ...the whole mess is just a game and the politicians are afraid to get off
the fence and lose their jobs. In reaity most seem not to care and wish to sweep
flds under a rug..or in the closet.