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Beware of FLDS enforcers, Texas told
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rcj | 4:19 p.m. June 11, 2008
The judge needs protection because there was no evidence and the whole raid was
illegal. So naturally the people impacted are going to be mad. One of them may
do something equally stupid and retaliate.
I can't say I blame them, exactly who is being held to account for this illegal raid? Anyone get fired? Suspended? A stern talking to... Is there any accountability at all? If I make an annonymous phone call reporting child abuse or rape at the local school would it be raided or would a more rational approach be taken before hundreds of kids are rounded up? Why was this situation treated differently?
I can't say I blame them, exactly who is being held to account for this illegal raid? Anyone get fired? Suspended? A stern talking to... Is there any accountability at all? If I make an annonymous phone call reporting child abuse or rape at the local school would it be raided or would a more rational approach be taken before hundreds of kids are rounded up? Why was this situation treated differently?
FLDS Mother | 4:21 p.m. June 11, 2008
Re: FLDS Mother
Well, I do teach my children that they have the right to make their own choices. That seems to be my biggest subject. "Its all your choice, but remember, there is a consequence in every choice you make, whether it good or bad"
-who they want to be
One wants to be a nurse, I'm behind her all the way. I even let her "doctor" up all the minor wounds. Two want to be Police officers, I'm behind them as well. Another wants to be a mother..I'm behind her all the way.(Only when she's of age.)
-who they want to marry
They want to marry who God wants them to. But if they chose different, how can I change their minds. Its their life.
-what education they want
My oldest daughter,14 yrs. wants to go to high school. She will start in the fall. Her choice. I'm behind her in that choice.
-what occupation they want
read-who they want to be
-where they want to live
They can live where ever they want. I never heard that one.
Who's "Brainwashed" Those who believe Flora, Carolyn, Elissa, Kathy, ect.
Well, I do teach my children that they have the right to make their own choices. That seems to be my biggest subject. "Its all your choice, but remember, there is a consequence in every choice you make, whether it good or bad"
-who they want to be
One wants to be a nurse, I'm behind her all the way. I even let her "doctor" up all the minor wounds. Two want to be Police officers, I'm behind them as well. Another wants to be a mother..I'm behind her all the way.(Only when she's of age.)
-who they want to marry
They want to marry who God wants them to. But if they chose different, how can I change their minds. Its their life.
-what education they want
My oldest daughter,14 yrs. wants to go to high school. She will start in the fall. Her choice. I'm behind her in that choice.
-what occupation they want
read-who they want to be
-where they want to live
They can live where ever they want. I never heard that one.
Who's "Brainwashed" Those who believe Flora, Carolyn, Elissa, Kathy, ect.
Comments continue below
StingRay | 4:24 p.m. June 11, 2008
No, Evril LeBaron's thugs had nothing to do with this group.
BobP | 4:27 p.m. June 11, 2008
This "beware" is simply defelection. A poor us, we are in danger
scam. It lets them save a little face and nothing else.
Foxy Wizard | 4:28 p.m. June 11, 2008
More baloney from the State of Texas.
tommy john | 4:28 p.m. June 11, 2008
Goes round comes round. Were those children abused by the authorities?
FLDS Mother | 4:33 p.m. June 11, 2008
re - Janet
Thats rude! You have NO idea!! Just media and ex-members lies!
We DO pray for those that leave. Would you stop praying for someone that was rebellious to your religion? If you would, your not a very good person. ALL of us should be praying for each other. If we profess to be followers of Christ, in any religion, we would pray for all, even those who are our enemy.
We pray for them, that their hearts will be softened. And then let God be the judge. What he will do to the wicked (read the scriptures) is so horrible, We would never want that to happen to anyone.
"Judge not that ye be not judged."
Thats rude! You have NO idea!! Just media and ex-members lies!
We DO pray for those that leave. Would you stop praying for someone that was rebellious to your religion? If you would, your not a very good person. ALL of us should be praying for each other. If we profess to be followers of Christ, in any religion, we would pray for all, even those who are our enemy.
We pray for them, that their hearts will be softened. And then let God be the judge. What he will do to the wicked (read the scriptures) is so horrible, We would never want that to happen to anyone.
"Judge not that ye be not judged."
Anonymous | 4:36 p.m. June 11, 2008
Re: Karma
Good karma, I totally agree with you. I have myself, often used the same words.
D.News- this is a pretty nice article.
Good karma, I totally agree with you. I have myself, often used the same words.
D.News- this is a pretty nice article.
Anthony | 4:43 p.m. June 11, 2008
In my opinion this Judge should have her home address and phone number publicly
displayed and she should be ridiculed for the ruling she made as an example to
anyone in Government who dare lay their dirty little filthy fingers on your
children.
Wake Up America.
Wake Up America.
Anonymous | 4:47 p.m. June 11, 2008
Jackson had the best point. The men whose children were kidnapped have already
shown that they're not willing to fight. What the judge should be worried
about is those of us who are getting really tired of a government that does
whatever it wants, whenever it wants, for any, or no, reason.
Remember, after all the allegations we've heard, there still have been NO charges filed. Zero. None. After 2 1/2 months. I could understand no convictions yet. But no charges? And that judge's superiors ruled that there was no evidence what so ever, as did the Texas Supreme Court. No charges, no arrests, and multiple courts insisting that Walther, not the FLDS members, was out of line. At some point in a witch hunt, we need to both define what a witch is, and give some reason to believe the person we're hunting may be one. So far, after ample opportunity, the Texas CPS has yet to do either. I believe the appropriate phrase is, "Put up, or shut up."
Remember, after all the allegations we've heard, there still have been NO charges filed. Zero. None. After 2 1/2 months. I could understand no convictions yet. But no charges? And that judge's superiors ruled that there was no evidence what so ever, as did the Texas Supreme Court. No charges, no arrests, and multiple courts insisting that Walther, not the FLDS members, was out of line. At some point in a witch hunt, we need to both define what a witch is, and give some reason to believe the person we're hunting may be one. So far, after ample opportunity, the Texas CPS has yet to do either. I believe the appropriate phrase is, "Put up, or shut up."
Bill Draper | 4:49 p.m. June 11, 2008
Inside or outside the group, here are facts.
The FLDS are very hardworking....even to the point all the kids had paper routes, but they also accepted welfare and when building they keep one side of the house unfinished so that they do not have to start paying taxes.
Most men are very hardworking, the kids are taught how to work and be respectful...but They do not tolerate anyone leaving the group....they may drive some off...but any woman that tries to leave....hell hath no fury than the leaders of the group scorned.
There are tons of Polygs around, in all walks of life.
The FLDS are very hardworking....even to the point all the kids had paper routes, but they also accepted welfare and when building they keep one side of the house unfinished so that they do not have to start paying taxes.
Most men are very hardworking, the kids are taught how to work and be respectful...but They do not tolerate anyone leaving the group....they may drive some off...but any woman that tries to leave....hell hath no fury than the leaders of the group scorned.
There are tons of Polygs around, in all walks of life.
PC Propaganda | 4:52 p.m. June 11, 2008
The state of Texas has revealed a glimpse of the coming socialist/fascist
gestapo who seize people and property without due process "for your own
good" aided and abbetted by the shamefully biased politically correct
media. I've said it before and I say it again: shame on Texas and
especially their "social" services CPS -- paid for by your hard-earned
taxes. The revolution against political correctness will not be televised.
Auntie Mem | 4:55 p.m. June 11, 2008
Wow!! Coincidence!! I just started reading "Under the Banner of
Heaven" by Jon Krakauer. GET THE BOOK!! It documents the underhandedness,
deception and sexual perversion of the FLDS. Everything these people base their
spiritual foundation on is a lie from the pit of hell, and revolves around
sexual molestation and pedophilia. It's SAD BUT TRUE. I first felt sorry
for the children and mothers, but now think it would be best for all of the
children to be adopted, so that they would not end up being molested. Which is
what will happen, if they are female. Just read the book (Published 2003).
Bill | 5:00 p.m. June 11, 2008
So let me get this straight. The members of the FLDS church wantonly break the
law by practicing polygamy (yes �spiritual
partners� count), actively support the marriage and adult
relationships of female minors, have no problem with first and second cousins
having children together. And they are the
�victims?� Don�t
make me sick! If from infancy you were told that you should never give a
truthful answer to a police officer (and don�t worry in our
religion it isn�t wrong to lie to outsiders) you would look
the world in the eye and say you were totally innocent too. Yes, all of their
children should have been taken away. If I tried to marry my daughter off at
the age of 14 to a cousin in the name of
�religion� I�d be
tossed in the slammer. Why not these people? The true victimes here are the
children who are now going to be forced to re-enter this state of mental bondage
and brainwashing.
FLDS Mother at 4:21 | 5:04 p.m. June 11, 2008
Can't argue with you on any of that--I did the same with my 9 kids. Most
of them have made wise choices--and when they didn't, well, there sure are
consequences. You hate to see them pay them, but that, unfortunately, is how we
all learn.
By the way, I'm not FLDS, don't live in Utah, but I went to high school with some Short Creek kids--sat with one of them at a high school reunion about 10 years ago.
There are enough ex-members of my faith who tell lurid tales that I always take any ex-member of anything with a little grain of salt.
If we are all being honest, we will probably admit that there are, unfortunately, a few people in every group who fail to live by the principles they claim to believe. But we need to look into our own hearts and judge and correct ourselves. God will take care of the rest, I do believe.
By the way, I'm not FLDS, don't live in Utah, but I went to high school with some Short Creek kids--sat with one of them at a high school reunion about 10 years ago.
There are enough ex-members of my faith who tell lurid tales that I always take any ex-member of anything with a little grain of salt.
If we are all being honest, we will probably admit that there are, unfortunately, a few people in every group who fail to live by the principles they claim to believe. But we need to look into our own hearts and judge and correct ourselves. God will take care of the rest, I do believe.
Former FLDS wife from my book | 5:27 p.m. June 11, 2008
When my husband refused to provide a home that was separate from the rest of his
family, I took it upon myself to obtain that home for my children and myself.
Two days after I left my husband's home I was forcefully abducted by three
of his older boys. For one-and-a-half days I was locked in my room. My husband
tried every method of persuasion to get me to come back to his home, but I
refused. Though it was not my intention to leave my husband, I could not bring
myself to continue our relationship after the abusive way that he treated me
while I was held captive.
After the abduction, the threats of "blood atonement" execution, and our "prophet's" counseling session, I could no longer continue to share my life and children with my husband. I left my husband after that meeting and when he heard from me again he had to listen me. In the courtrooms of the State of Utah, I obtained legal custody of five boys.
After the abduction, the threats of "blood atonement" execution, and our "prophet's" counseling session, I could no longer continue to share my life and children with my husband. I left my husband after that meeting and when he heard from me again he had to listen me. In the courtrooms of the State of Utah, I obtained legal custody of five boys.
Anonymous | 5:28 p.m. June 11, 2008
Bill said:
"So let me get this straight. The members of the FLDS church wantonly break the law by practicing polygamy (yes �spiritual partners� count), actively support the marriage and adult relationships of female minors, have no problem with first and second cousins having children together."
If it's such an open and shut case, it should be pretty easy to arrest them. But they've had 2 1/2 months, and they haven't filed a single charge.
"So let me get this straight. The members of the FLDS church wantonly break the law by practicing polygamy (yes �spiritual partners� count), actively support the marriage and adult relationships of female minors, have no problem with first and second cousins having children together."
If it's such an open and shut case, it should be pretty easy to arrest them. But they've had 2 1/2 months, and they haven't filed a single charge.
David | 5:33 p.m. June 11, 2008
Mzzz Stupid Judge deserves what ever happens to her.
She should be impeached, Taken to court and jailed for ordering the kidnapping of all thoughs children.
If there are some enforcers looking for her,,,, good luck to them.
She should be impeached, Taken to court and jailed for ordering the kidnapping of all thoughs children.
If there are some enforcers looking for her,,,, good luck to them.
Randolph | 5:36 p.m. June 11, 2008
Question is, when will charges be brought against the judge for overstepping the
bounds of the law? Ordinary citizens have much more to fear from a judge like
that, who spurns the constraints of the law, than from cultists having a
non-traditional family structure.
Anonymous | 5:36 p.m. June 11, 2008
It's not the religious members that are nuts by the sounds of it.
The judge needs to grow up.
The judge needs to grow up.
The_Lone_Rider | 5:38 p.m. June 11, 2008
What they see down the road is "Sheriff Willie Jessop" and that is
what really scares them. hahahaha
Way to go Bill Medvecky!!! Keep stirring the pot. Keep this story in the headlines. Walther's phone number should be part of the record and the people should have the right to call her and tell her just what a lousy judge she is. She should be impeached, tried, and if convicted suffer the same punishment of anyone that attempts genocide.
Way to go Bill Medvecky!!! Keep stirring the pot. Keep this story in the headlines. Walther's phone number should be part of the record and the people should have the right to call her and tell her just what a lousy judge she is. She should be impeached, tried, and if convicted suffer the same punishment of anyone that attempts genocide.
David | 5:43 p.m. June 11, 2008
Oh I dunno. If somebody kidnapped my kids right out of my home and I KNEW that
there was no abuse or molestation, I'd probably be pretty damn mad. What
you've got is the State KIDNAPPING CHILDREN without a shred of evidence of
wrongdoing in 95% of those families.
I pray that CPS and everything attached to it gets sued so hard and deep that it collapses.
I pray that CPS and everything attached to it gets sued so hard and deep that it collapses.
Timothy | 5:46 p.m. June 11, 2008
Re: Former FLDS wife from my book,
You did the right thing. God bless you for speaking up to these awful men who endorse having sex slaves.
You did the right thing. God bless you for speaking up to these awful men who endorse having sex slaves.
Flyboy | 5:47 p.m. June 11, 2008
Having failed in their outrageous attempt to trample on the rights of the
parents in the case, the State of Texas is now trying to create a climate where
they can blame any isolated act of violence performed by anyone in the name of
the FLDS as a reason to make mass arrests in the name of preventing what they
will call "terrorist violence." If this were not the State doing
this, we'd be talking about incitement to riot and unlawful detaining. But
it is the state, and this is frightening.
JOHANN DOHMANN | 5:52 p.m. June 11, 2008
When are they going to find this ''fake''girl who started
this whole thing..there never was one!!!!
This is a government insider job...unless a 10 million dollar reward is offered for someone to come forward and leak out some info.we'll never know.
Those people did nothing wrong....let Washington DC
clean up all their corruption..it'll take at least 20-30 years to rid us of all of them,starting with the white house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JOHANN DOHMANN
This is a government insider job...unless a 10 million dollar reward is offered for someone to come forward and leak out some info.we'll never know.
Those people did nothing wrong....let Washington DC
clean up all their corruption..it'll take at least 20-30 years to rid us of all of them,starting with the white house!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JOHANN DOHMANN
Zeb | 5:51 p.m. June 11, 2008
The government raids these people's homes without any evidence whatsoever,
kidnaps their children, and then DARES to suggest that people who have the
righteous nerve and fortitude to question the same tyranical, unlawful
government for this are the ones who are "dangerous."
Yea, maybe the government is afraid that one of these peaceful people might raid the judge's home or something, like SHE did to them.
Ahem. Hello?
This just further proves how convoluted and evil our government has become.
The people of this country have every right to know where evil, unconstitutional judges like this live, so that the people can keep an eye on such tyrants should they happen to move in next door or something.
It's good that the government fears the people every now and then, IMO. There would be no hope for any civilization if a government didn't. Maybe this corrupt judge will think twice the next time before she raids innocent Americans' houses again and kidnaps their children away from them.
Yea, maybe the government is afraid that one of these peaceful people might raid the judge's home or something, like SHE did to them.
Ahem. Hello?
This just further proves how convoluted and evil our government has become.
The people of this country have every right to know where evil, unconstitutional judges like this live, so that the people can keep an eye on such tyrants should they happen to move in next door or something.
It's good that the government fears the people every now and then, IMO. There would be no hope for any civilization if a government didn't. Maybe this corrupt judge will think twice the next time before she raids innocent Americans' houses again and kidnaps their children away from them.
Justthefactsmaam | 5:52 p.m. June 11, 2008
I'm the grandson of a Pentecostal preacher; not FLDS, nor LDS, nor ever
have I been.
That being said, this is just the ravings of KKK lunatics in sparsely populated West Texas; about as sparsely populated as SIBERIA.
Schleicher County (where El Dorado and the YFZ ranch is) has 2,935 people in it spread out over a WHOPPING 1,311 miles. See Wikipedia.
That's a MICROSCOPIC 2.2 people per SQUARE MILE! Even the cows must get lonely! People must get WORN OUT just from wandering around aimlessly futilely TRYING to find OTHER PEOPLE in the county! No wonder they are such busy bodies living in such a hell hole.
And by HELLHOLE, *mean* HELLhole.
Guess what my research discovered?
San Angelos the WORLD HQ for at least TWO (2) KKK national organizations!
The Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
And.
The Traditional Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Google both. You'll EASILY find their sites.
Truth is stranger than fiction. I believe these Texas "authorities" are members and/or sympathizers. And when you look at their rally pics, it looks to me like a lot of these KKKers are COP types. And KKK = NAZI sympathizer. Period.
That being said, this is just the ravings of KKK lunatics in sparsely populated West Texas; about as sparsely populated as SIBERIA.
Schleicher County (where El Dorado and the YFZ ranch is) has 2,935 people in it spread out over a WHOPPING 1,311 miles. See Wikipedia.
That's a MICROSCOPIC 2.2 people per SQUARE MILE! Even the cows must get lonely! People must get WORN OUT just from wandering around aimlessly futilely TRYING to find OTHER PEOPLE in the county! No wonder they are such busy bodies living in such a hell hole.
And by HELLHOLE, *mean* HELLhole.
Guess what my research discovered?
San Angelos the WORLD HQ for at least TWO (2) KKK national organizations!
The Empire Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
And.
The Traditional Christian Knights of the Ku Klux Klan.
Google both. You'll EASILY find their sites.
Truth is stranger than fiction. I believe these Texas "authorities" are members and/or sympathizers. And when you look at their rally pics, it looks to me like a lot of these KKKers are COP types. And KKK = NAZI sympathizer. Period.
White Pages | 6:13 p.m. June 11, 2008
Hm. I just checked the white pages in Texas online. Judge Barbara Walther in
San Angelo surely is listed, with her home address and phone number.
This does not surprise me. A "simple country judge", as she has called herself, hardly has any reason to not be listed in the phone book. I'm sure she knows many citizens in San Angelo by first name. Smallish towns are like that.
I would provide a direct link to the white page listing online, but for fearing of being called a terrorist and put under surveillance by armed Texas thugs, I will leave y'all to your own ability to look things up in public phone books and verify this for yourself.
This does not surprise me. A "simple country judge", as she has called herself, hardly has any reason to not be listed in the phone book. I'm sure she knows many citizens in San Angelo by first name. Smallish towns are like that.
I would provide a direct link to the white page listing online, but for fearing of being called a terrorist and put under surveillance by armed Texas thugs, I will leave y'all to your own ability to look things up in public phone books and verify this for yourself.
Janet | 6:35 p.m. June 11, 2008
To: Re: Janet | 2:30 p.m. June 11, 2008
Yes they do more for the girls and mothers who choose to leave, they help them find an apartment or rent them a house and supply them with means to take care of themselves until they can find a job, some father's even give them a car. Then they continue to pray for them.
I have several members of my family who have chosen to live differntly, we call them on their birthdays and once in a while they come and visit us, and their always in my prayers adn I believe they're in the prayers of other family members also. I still love them. There is a reason why Carolyn left in broad daylight and her daughter Betty returned as soon as she was eihteen. If Carolyn had asked to leave, you can bet Merrill would have tried to discourage her from doing so, he loves his family as well as anyone, and when he saw she was determined he would have helped her and she knew it. If you don't want to go to work you have to right a sensational book for means. Thanks for the concern though.
Yes they do more for the girls and mothers who choose to leave, they help them find an apartment or rent them a house and supply them with means to take care of themselves until they can find a job, some father's even give them a car. Then they continue to pray for them.
I have several members of my family who have chosen to live differntly, we call them on their birthdays and once in a while they come and visit us, and their always in my prayers adn I believe they're in the prayers of other family members also. I still love them. There is a reason why Carolyn left in broad daylight and her daughter Betty returned as soon as she was eihteen. If Carolyn had asked to leave, you can bet Merrill would have tried to discourage her from doing so, he loves his family as well as anyone, and when he saw she was determined he would have helped her and she knew it. If you don't want to go to work you have to right a sensational book for means. Thanks for the concern though.
John Lambert | 6:46 p.m. June 11, 2008
To "Obvious",
Statutory rape is not an act of violence. You can not have your cake an eat it to. If the girls are all brainwashed into doing exactly what the men want, as the FLDS-bashers keep claiming, than there is no violence involved.
It does appear that in Ms. Walls case there was truly violent rape. However, there is no evidence that there was non-statutory rape, that is to say rape that would exist if we held that females 12 years and over could give consent. I think that statutory rape laws are good, and I am no supporter of this practice in any form. However, are you trying to tell me that the alleged 12-year-old making out in the pictures with Warren Jeffs is being physically forced to particepate?
You are mixing terms. Statutory rape is not inherently violent, and the victims do not always feel violated. This is one of the reasons it is so hard to prosecute.
Statutory rape is not an act of violence. You can not have your cake an eat it to. If the girls are all brainwashed into doing exactly what the men want, as the FLDS-bashers keep claiming, than there is no violence involved.
It does appear that in Ms. Walls case there was truly violent rape. However, there is no evidence that there was non-statutory rape, that is to say rape that would exist if we held that females 12 years and over could give consent. I think that statutory rape laws are good, and I am no supporter of this practice in any form. However, are you trying to tell me that the alleged 12-year-old making out in the pictures with Warren Jeffs is being physically forced to particepate?
You are mixing terms. Statutory rape is not inherently violent, and the victims do not always feel violated. This is one of the reasons it is so hard to prosecute.
deroy | 6:46 p.m. June 11, 2008
the judge needs to be jailed pending an investigation. her stupid and unlawful
actions could have caused a repeat of the JANET RENO inspired WACO state
sponsored murders.
Justthefactsmaam | 6:49 p.m. June 11, 2008
So let me get this straight. The members of the FLDS church wantonly break the
law by practicing polygamy (yes �spiritual
partners� count), actively support the marriage and adult
relationships of female minors, have no problem with first and second cousins
having children together.
----
Bill, obviously you need to get a lot of things straight.
1) co-habitation is legal in the USA. That's all this is. Real bigamy is 2 or more marriage licenses. Whether the partners are called baby-mamas or wives, doesn't matter. Co-habitation is legal in the USA.
2) Although it's disputed at the moment, there actually turned out to be, once all of the 18 to 27 year old to 36 year old (almost 37) 'minors' were weeded out, either
1 or 0
minors that had ever been pregnant.
Oops.
3) It's legal in 19 states to marry one's first cousin in the USA, including California and New York. That's because marrying your first AND second cousins (and 3rd cousins, etc) isn't prohibited in the Bible's incest laws in Leviticus.
Oops.
JustTheFactsMaam
----
Bill, obviously you need to get a lot of things straight.
1) co-habitation is legal in the USA. That's all this is. Real bigamy is 2 or more marriage licenses. Whether the partners are called baby-mamas or wives, doesn't matter. Co-habitation is legal in the USA.
2) Although it's disputed at the moment, there actually turned out to be, once all of the 18 to 27 year old to 36 year old (almost 37) 'minors' were weeded out, either
1 or 0
minors that had ever been pregnant.
Oops.
3) It's legal in 19 states to marry one's first cousin in the USA, including California and New York. That's because marrying your first AND second cousins (and 3rd cousins, etc) isn't prohibited in the Bible's incest laws in Leviticus.
Oops.
JustTheFactsMaam
John Lambert | 6:53 p.m. June 11, 2008
"Under The Banner of Heaven" is a seriously flawed book. Anyway,
the Laffertys were never part of the FLDS movement.
Among other things Krakauer claims the LDS Church has an official position against inter-racial marriage, I think most specifically Black men marrying white women. Since I have known at least four couples that fit that description who got married in the temple, if you look back over Mormon Times you can find articles on two more couples of that type who got married in the temple, including the Chair of the Department of Religios Education at BYU-Hawaii, and this is ignoring at least four other sealed couples I know where the wife was black, Krakauer's statements are clearly false.
His book is basically hate liturature aginst the LDS Church though his attempts to link it to the Polygamous movement, and not much better in his attempts to link the relatively mainstream elements within polygamy with Lafferty.
Krakauer's book is full of inacuracies from beganing to end.
Among other things Krakauer claims the LDS Church has an official position against inter-racial marriage, I think most specifically Black men marrying white women. Since I have known at least four couples that fit that description who got married in the temple, if you look back over Mormon Times you can find articles on two more couples of that type who got married in the temple, including the Chair of the Department of Religios Education at BYU-Hawaii, and this is ignoring at least four other sealed couples I know where the wife was black, Krakauer's statements are clearly false.
His book is basically hate liturature aginst the LDS Church though his attempts to link it to the Polygamous movement, and not much better in his attempts to link the relatively mainstream elements within polygamy with Lafferty.
Krakauer's book is full of inacuracies from beganing to end.
KC | 6:54 p.m. June 11, 2008
So let me see if I have this straight. If you're high up in the hierarchy,
you're an extreme threat because you're part of the system. If
you're low in the hierarchy, you're an extreme threat because
'what might you do to move up'?
I call BS. This dossier sounds like it was just made up as they went along. It sounds exactly like the propaganda smear job used against the Branch Dividians.
I call BS. This dossier sounds like it was just made up as they went along. It sounds exactly like the propaganda smear job used against the Branch Dividians.
David | 6:56 p.m. June 11, 2008
All the Marxists that attempted to disrupt the lives of so many should be fired.
The Judge, Sheriff, and their quisling comrades at CPS should be imprisoned,
tried for treason, and punished to the full extent of the law they dishonored.
Only a Marxist, or a spiteful woman, could create such a scenario.
John Lambert | 6:57 p.m. June 11, 2008
One more thing Krakauer said. He claims that at BYU no one ever walks on the
grass, people always stick totally to the sidewalks.
I do not seem to remember this having been the case, but it has been almost four years since I was last there, and so I was wondering if anyone could comment on this issue who had a clearer memory of how often people walk on the grass at BYU.
I do not seem to remember this having been the case, but it has been almost four years since I was last there, and so I was wondering if anyone could comment on this issue who had a clearer memory of how often people walk on the grass at BYU.
A Texan | 7:12 p.m. June 11, 2008
I completely support Judge Walther. Girls raised in that compound are in danger
of being sexually abused at a young age. They are being raised with that in
mind. Their parents' "consent" to sham marriages does not change
the fact that young girls are being indoctrinated to become willing victims of
child sexual abuse. The Court of Appeals ruling that the compound is not a
single domicile is a matter of opinion--Judge Walther believed it was and I
certainly believe it is. Judge Walther is a conservative and a Republican. The
only other woman to rule in the matter--Judge Harriet O"Neill joined two
other Supreme Court Justices in a dissent saying that pubescent girls should
remain in state custody. This is not a question of the state sticking it's
nose into sexual activities between consenting adults. Children are being
exploited in Texas, and shame on those who are looking the other way. Further,
we are noting if not a society of laws--threatening a judge is a serious matter,
and I hope those who have done it are locked up for many years.
Grand Old Marxist Party (GOMP) | 7:20 p.m. June 11, 2008
David,
"All the Marxists that attempted to disrupt the lives of so many should be fired. The Judge, Sheriff, and their quisling comrades at CPS should be imprisoned, tried for treason, and punished to the full extent of the law they dishonored. Only a Marxist, or a spiteful woman, could create such a scenario."
I have no problem with you calling Republicans Marxists since that is exactly what they are.
"All the Marxists that attempted to disrupt the lives of so many should be fired. The Judge, Sheriff, and their quisling comrades at CPS should be imprisoned, tried for treason, and punished to the full extent of the law they dishonored. Only a Marxist, or a spiteful woman, could create such a scenario."
I have no problem with you calling Republicans Marxists since that is exactly what they are.
Whatev | 7:21 p.m. June 11, 2008
So now that the Texas Justice dept and Child Services have egg on their faces,
they have to try and make up some new story. C'mon people, I don't
agree with the polygs one bit, but this is facism at best.
Rich | 7:24 p.m. June 11, 2008
On these very pages, I have read many comments by FLDS members who wrote
threatening things about the judge. I would be plenty worried about some FLDS
nut coming after me if I were the judge. The FLDS consider themselves above the
law because they rationalize that they are following a higher law when they
commit the felony of polygamy. Therefore, it's easy to see one of them
thinking he or she is getting a revelation to dispose of the evil judge who
ordered the removal of the FLDS children. Some of the polygnists, as they like
to call themselves, rationalized openly that because of certain Bible passages
they are justified in marrying and having sex with a girl as long as she has
reached sexual maturity. I view this religion as a sick and evil cult, whose
well-meaning members have been deceived by men who justify their actions by
saying they are called of God and receive revelations from God.
Anonymous | 7:24 p.m. June 11, 2008
CPS is not a criminal investigation / police unit, it is civil agency.
Anonymous | 7:28 p.m. June 11, 2008
Walthers and Perry face high crimes of genocide against the religion so there is
a full court press on now as there has been from the beginning. Counts besides
genocide include false imprisonment of adults while leading the media on that
they are children. It goes beyond the YFZ ranch. Carolyn Jessop, the author of
the book that peaked on Amazon.com a couple of days BEFORE the raid on YFZ, is
also part of stealing the UEP Trust from the FLDS which has about 300 million
dollars in land. It is genocide against people who have been persecuted for
decades now. Utah, Arizona and Texas are all trying their hand at getting rid
of them. But the attacks are against US and International law.
Reply to Karen | 7:35 p.m. June 11, 2008
"You little twinky! My brother lives at the YFZ and he pulls 72 hour
shifts. They work extremely hard to be self-sufficient and they DO NOT rely on
welfare or foodstamps, keep your frump to yourself. It's your problem if it
makes you upset that people take wasteland out in the boonies and turn it into a
beautiful thriving community. You need to get a clue!"
If they have all this money then why in the devil did the women get attorney through legal aid? That sticks in my craw because there are other hard working people who need attorneys and cannot get them because they make too much money and are living just above the poverty line.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
If they have all this money then why in the devil did the women get attorney through legal aid? That sticks in my craw because there are other hard working people who need attorneys and cannot get them because they make too much money and are living just above the poverty line.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it!
Bill | 7:54 p.m. June 11, 2008
It is a fantasy to think there will be any successful lawsuits against CPS.
Courts grant organizations such as CPS enormous leeway, and CPS is fully complying with the appellate court.
And CPS isn't going anywhere - the court rulings allow CPS to have unrestricted followups for the next several years with the children released from CPS custody.
Like it or not, CPS will be monitoring *all* the FLDS children for the forseeable future (yes, that includes unannounced visits to YFZ)
Courts grant organizations such as CPS enormous leeway, and CPS is fully complying with the appellate court.
And CPS isn't going anywhere - the court rulings allow CPS to have unrestricted followups for the next several years with the children released from CPS custody.
Like it or not, CPS will be monitoring *all* the FLDS children for the forseeable future (yes, that includes unannounced visits to YFZ)
Janet | 7:57 p.m. June 11, 2008
To: Rich | 7:24 p.m. June 11, 2008
Just for the record we do not call ourselves polygamists, you do. I am not above the laws of the land nor the laws of God but the laws of God do come first, read the account of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Bible if that confuses you. Furthermore, we do not recieve revelations concerning any judge. Revelation comes from God to His Prophet and he teaches us to "send the humility of forgiveness ahead of us". I have not been decieved by anyone. The eyes of my maker are upon me, I will honor God as I believe.
Just for the record we do not call ourselves polygamists, you do. I am not above the laws of the land nor the laws of God but the laws of God do come first, read the account of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the Bible if that confuses you. Furthermore, we do not recieve revelations concerning any judge. Revelation comes from God to His Prophet and he teaches us to "send the humility of forgiveness ahead of us". I have not been decieved by anyone. The eyes of my maker are upon me, I will honor God as I believe.
John Lambert | 8:01 p.m. June 11, 2008
We are also a society of elections, and citizen participation.
Is it illegal to draw up an impeachment document against a judge?
I do not care what party Walther is part of, she is incompetent and needs to be removed. Anyway, the Republicans have a long history of organizing religious persecutions. Just look at what happened in Utah in the 1880s.
Is it illegal to draw up an impeachment document against a judge?
I do not care what party Walther is part of, she is incompetent and needs to be removed. Anyway, the Republicans have a long history of organizing religious persecutions. Just look at what happened in Utah in the 1880s.
Karen | 8:03 p.m. June 11, 2008
Reply To: Reply to Karen | 7:35 p.m. June 11, 2008
All what money? Did I say my brother got paid money? Our motto is "love to bless and serve" do you have to get paid money to work hard, have you ever concidered giving of yourself to bless somone else. Most of teh Texas legal aid are volunteering their time to help those among the FLDS who are "just above the poverty line". Oh, by the way I don't smoke and I don't want to know what "sticks in my craw" means. Heaven bless you!
All what money? Did I say my brother got paid money? Our motto is "love to bless and serve" do you have to get paid money to work hard, have you ever concidered giving of yourself to bless somone else. Most of teh Texas legal aid are volunteering their time to help those among the FLDS who are "just above the poverty line". Oh, by the way I don't smoke and I don't want to know what "sticks in my craw" means. Heaven bless you!
John Lambert | 8:05 p.m. June 11, 2008
To Janet,
Yes revelation came from God to his prophet. It came to his prophet Wilford Woodruff and his prophet Joseph F. Smith. You and all the rest of the FLDS have rejected the words of God's prophets.
Yes revelation came from God to his prophet. It came to his prophet Wilford Woodruff and his prophet Joseph F. Smith. You and all the rest of the FLDS have rejected the words of God's prophets.
Ing | 8:08 p.m. June 11, 2008
The circus just keeps on going, doesn't it. At this point, the Texas CPS
and all the law enforcement people involved in this thing have pretty much zero
credibility.
This police dossier sounds a lot like the CPS' lame court arguments--a lot of speculation and opinion with almost no factual basis.
If it's just law enforcement speculating in order to cover every possible contingency in preventing possible attacks from crackpots, that's one thing.
If it gets perpetuated as evidence that the FLDS have violence in mind--and it seems to already be morphing into its own self-evident truth--then there's a problem.
This police dossier sounds a lot like the CPS' lame court arguments--a lot of speculation and opinion with almost no factual basis.
If it's just law enforcement speculating in order to cover every possible contingency in preventing possible attacks from crackpots, that's one thing.
If it gets perpetuated as evidence that the FLDS have violence in mind--and it seems to already be morphing into its own self-evident truth--then there's a problem.
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Eric Gay, Associated Press
Texas tightened security for Judge Barbara Walther after warnings from Utah and Arizona officials.
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You are facing the same issues that many, many other parents face outside your faith. You believe strongly that certain things have eternal verity. You want desperately to teach these things to your children. So do many of us. And we also struggle with a culture that tells us that our beliefs are wrong and that we should not be teaching our values to our children.
But I believe that most caring parents really do want(however unbiased they wish to appear to others)
desperately for their children to follow the things they hold most dear.
There is such a fine line between teaching our children correct principles and allowing them to govern themselves (that's Joseph Smith) and trying too hard to make sure that they don't make choices that we believe to be eternally wrong and/or dangerous.
People often think those of differing beliefs are obsessed or nuts--I still remember questioning my Amish friend Katy's worry about her son's "english" pants and her not noticing that her daughter was inappropriately involved with her boyfriend.
Closely held beliefs always look odd to outsiders--of whatever faith.