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LDS black leaders call for spirit of unity
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Unbelievable | 8:02 p.m. June 9, 2008
Living overseas it is so strange to watch how US deals with people that you call
the Blacks. First you have them as slaves, next, you let them vote, then you let
them eat in the same places as whites, then they are allowed onto the same
buses, and then the LDS Church allows them to have the priesthood. Wow, and then
a lot of you on this site get excited about how now everyone is soooooo equal!!
Strange how many in my part of the world thought everyone was equal all along!!!
How I worry for Obama!!
Fred | 8:07 p.m. June 9, 2008
Reality said at 8:34 am:
"I wasn't aware that there were any black leaders in the LDS Church."
Do you mean like my bishop, in a ward that is 95% white? Yes, he really stands out. And the members love him and serve with all their might.
"I wasn't aware that there were any black leaders in the LDS Church."
Do you mean like my bishop, in a ward that is 95% white? Yes, he really stands out. And the members love him and serve with all their might.
Hope | 8:22 p.m. June 9, 2008
I wish I were there in Salt Lake City last night.
I would have gone to the Tabernacle.
I was in Salt Lake City on June 8, 1978, the night of the announcement 30 years ago. There was a delightful buzz in the air that night. Salt Lake
City was the center of the News of the World that day, all day and night. All the major networks
were telling the story. June 8th was a Friday that year.
I'm hoping that the Special celebration was video taped so that we, who live outside of the Wasatch
Front, will be able to watch it on DVD or VHS or
maybe BYU-TV on the dish Network, Direct TV, and/or
many cable systems and on the internet.
The Church has grown a lot since Pres. Kimball
made his contribution by changing directions
after inquiring of the Lord.
Thank God for the Church and BYU-TV that allows us,
who don't live in Utah, have access to great LDS
programming.
If anyone knows if the gathering last night in the
Tabernacle was taped, please post here on this
comment board of the Deseret News. I hope it was taped.
I would have gone to the Tabernacle.
I was in Salt Lake City on June 8, 1978, the night of the announcement 30 years ago. There was a delightful buzz in the air that night. Salt Lake
City was the center of the News of the World that day, all day and night. All the major networks
were telling the story. June 8th was a Friday that year.
I'm hoping that the Special celebration was video taped so that we, who live outside of the Wasatch
Front, will be able to watch it on DVD or VHS or
maybe BYU-TV on the dish Network, Direct TV, and/or
many cable systems and on the internet.
The Church has grown a lot since Pres. Kimball
made his contribution by changing directions
after inquiring of the Lord.
Thank God for the Church and BYU-TV that allows us,
who don't live in Utah, have access to great LDS
programming.
If anyone knows if the gathering last night in the
Tabernacle was taped, please post here on this
comment board of the Deseret News. I hope it was taped.
Comments continue below
uprooted utahn | 8:26 p.m. June 9, 2008
First, to "unbelievable"...I spent my first marriage in a Korean
household where I was despised for being white (it ended when he took up a porn
habit and left the LDS church). I am well-traveled, and I know that racism
exists absolutely everywhere. You must live on a very small island indeed to
believe that only Americans are bigots. Secondly, in the area (MS) where I
currently live, there are a large number of folks claiming to be LDS who are
still Baptists, Pentecostals, Catholics, or whatever. The biggest disunity
comes from not listening to the prophet and clinging to one's previous
religious ideals. If this were solved, and a testimony of service gained, the
racial and other problems in this area would go away on their own.
Charles Clark | 9:24 p.m. June 9, 2008
I don't see my comments here. Are we now against free speech as well as
being racist? I said nothing that was not true. It was not offensive. Maybe
provacative but not offensive. Do you want a realy dialogue or just musings?
Oh well I expected no less than the absence of free speach. However one can
hope can't one.
Sue from Down Under | 9:31 p.m. June 9, 2008
In the late 1960s, when I was a new member of the church, I asked a very wise
Institute teacher why the blacks did not hold the priesthood. In reply, he
explained that whatever the reason, it had nothing to do with skin colour. He
said that native Fijian men were very black-skinned but they were ordained to
the priesthood, as were men in other dark-skinned nations. Like many others, I
don't fully understand the reason but is there anything to be gained by
dwelling on a past situation that has now been fully rectified? Can't we
all just keep moving forward and strive for unity as children of God.
Big Al from NYC | 11:18 p.m. June 9, 2008
I was on a church mission in San Francisco June of 1978... I remember coming
back to my apartment and being greeted by a blackman we were teaching....
He asked us "did we hear the news about the Priesthood?", and proceeded to tell us about the dream he had the previous night where he saw his family (alive & departed), rejoicing. Let me tell you, his experience curled my toes.
By the way, Bay Ward had a black, non-priesthood holding, Sunday School President. One of the nicest, hardest working persons I ever met.
He asked us "did we hear the news about the Priesthood?", and proceeded to tell us about the dream he had the previous night where he saw his family (alive & departed), rejoicing. Let me tell you, his experience curled my toes.
By the way, Bay Ward had a black, non-priesthood holding, Sunday School President. One of the nicest, hardest working persons I ever met.
Spencer | 12:11 a.m. June 10, 2008
Here's my take on what happened:
1 God wanted all His children to receive the Gospel as He always has.
2 The world, even in the church, was not ready to accept all the will of God at the time, just as we aren't now in many things.
3 So God patiently waited.
4 The "law" didn't change until our hearts had, and when we were ready to accept it, God generously gave all the blessings that we were willing to receive as a people.
1 God wanted all His children to receive the Gospel as He always has.
2 The world, even in the church, was not ready to accept all the will of God at the time, just as we aren't now in many things.
3 So God patiently waited.
4 The "law" didn't change until our hearts had, and when we were ready to accept it, God generously gave all the blessings that we were willing to receive as a people.
monica | 12:30 a.m. June 10, 2008
I, a swedish member of the church, never stops being surprised over the racial
issiue in the US. White people took the africans there by force, they never
asked to be taken there, so how is it possible that there can still be so much
racism among so many whites? Sure everything isn�t perfect
here either, but still. My experiance is that racism is among all people, more
or less, and that often is because of lack of knowlege and personal interactions
whith other groups. How come some people, nomatter color,
can�t seem to accept unity between us all, but have to do
everything to split us up? All those who live by the rules of unity, love and
meekness know that there lies the true happiness and personal progress, as was
talked about in this meeting. I know that God lives and that he loves us all and
that we must live by faith to be able to become like him. That peace that He
gives those who humle themselves before Him can never be understood by those who
doest want to understand. Let�s keep on loving and
rejoysing in each other and peace shall win at last.
Good posts-I have a question too | 1:24 a.m. June 10, 2008
I realize this is an article about blacks being allowed the priesthood in 1978.
I enjoyed the article, but I am curious as to whether the priesthood ban applied
to just blacks or whether it encompassed hispanics, asians, and other non-white
ethnicities...
On a side note, since this article deals with race, I would like to ask my fellow Utahns to please research and understand the difference between "nationality" and "ethnicity." Almost daily, I am asked what my nationality is. Since I was born and raised in the U.S., I am naturally considered "American"--just like any other Utahn. My ethnicity, on the other hand, is Asian. This is kind of like being Christian and LDS at the same time--believe it or not, it is possible:). Also, I would like to make a friendly request to all return-missionaries who have served in Asia: Please stop coming up to me to practice your Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or other Asian languages. If you approach a random black man and start speaking Swahili to him, he might react in an unfavorable manner. At any rate, I'm glad the LDS church is emphasizing the importance of worthiness over race.
On a side note, since this article deals with race, I would like to ask my fellow Utahns to please research and understand the difference between "nationality" and "ethnicity." Almost daily, I am asked what my nationality is. Since I was born and raised in the U.S., I am naturally considered "American"--just like any other Utahn. My ethnicity, on the other hand, is Asian. This is kind of like being Christian and LDS at the same time--believe it or not, it is possible:). Also, I would like to make a friendly request to all return-missionaries who have served in Asia: Please stop coming up to me to practice your Chinese, Japanese, Korean, or other Asian languages. If you approach a random black man and start speaking Swahili to him, he might react in an unfavorable manner. At any rate, I'm glad the LDS church is emphasizing the importance of worthiness over race.
Jodi | 1:53 a.m. June 10, 2008
It has been interesting reading all the comments. I live in New Zealand and have
found people are people no matter where you live (The natural man that is an
enemy to God). Racial tension is everywhere. I have found the best way to avoid
it and stay above it is to stay true to the gospel principles, love those you
hate you and despitefully use you. Humbly turn the other cheek. Not easy. If you
have had hard feelings towards this article pray about it. You will find the
peace you need maybe not in an apology from someone you don't know. But
great peace that only our Savior can give through the atonement. God bless
America.
Actually... | 2:43 a.m. June 10, 2008
>My ethnicity, on the other hand, is Asian.
No it's not, unless you were raised in one of the many Asian cultures. Ethnicity does not refer to biological heritage, but to the culture into which you were socialized. What you are likely talking about is your bioracial identity, though "race" is a pseudo-scientific concept that is more a political idea than anything else.
No it's not, unless you were raised in one of the many Asian cultures. Ethnicity does not refer to biological heritage, but to the culture into which you were socialized. What you are likely talking about is your bioracial identity, though "race" is a pseudo-scientific concept that is more a political idea than anything else.
GlenHoll | 2:44 a.m. June 10, 2008
I am a White male. I and my lovely Black wife of fifteen years, and our lovely
Black Grandaughter with her White husband who were married in the Salt Lake
Temple, attended the Genesis picnic Saturday and also the Sunday night 30th year
celebration at the Tabernacle. My wife sings with Gladys Knight's Unified
Saints Voices and is the Gospel Doctrine class instructor in our ward in Las
Vegas. We were sealed in the Atlanta Temple in 1992 along with her two
children. Her son served a Spanish-speaking mission in South Centeral Los
Angeles and is married to a lovely Spanish desent Lady.
Nadeoui Eden | 7:47 a.m. June 10, 2008
I remember that day very well. I had a dear friend who had a black son who was
about to turn 12. She had not been able to find a way to tell him he would not
be able to be ordained to the priesthood. When I heard the news, I called
Helen, and we cried together on the phone for the joy of it.
Tho I am caucasion, when I took the missionary discussions back in 1964, my first question had been concerning blacks and the priesthood. I do not remember the answer I was given by Jan Tweten, the 70 who accompanied the two young missionaries who came to teach a single female, but I remember the spirit I felt - which was that God loves all of His children and the time would come that they would have every privilege. That day came on June 8, 1978.
Sadly to say, I lost a friend that day too, who could not accept this principle and left the church. How sad for her.
It is a joy and a privilege to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in this time.
Tho I am caucasion, when I took the missionary discussions back in 1964, my first question had been concerning blacks and the priesthood. I do not remember the answer I was given by Jan Tweten, the 70 who accompanied the two young missionaries who came to teach a single female, but I remember the spirit I felt - which was that God loves all of His children and the time would come that they would have every privilege. That day came on June 8, 1978.
Sadly to say, I lost a friend that day too, who could not accept this principle and left the church. How sad for her.
It is a joy and a privilege to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in this time.
Patrick Pratt | 7:54 a.m. June 10, 2008
Hey Guys, what about the lovely black saints in Europe? We have also been
puzzled and have struggled with the priesthood question. You may not realise it
but the UK racial demograpics have changed in last 50 years, particular in the
major cities. There are peoples from the four corner of the earth living and
working together and I am glad to report that in our London Stakes members are
drawn from all parts of the Commonwealth and beyond, white, black, brown who
cares, we are learning of Christ and trying to bring our lives in harmony with
doctrine of Christ. So what else matters?
Mark | 9:20 a.m. June 10, 2008
When Gladys Knight leads the choir in General Conference and a black man sits in the Q of 12, then we've finally beat the race issue.
Robbi | 11:57 a.m. June 10, 2008
In answer to the question about interacial marriages in the temple - yes they
are allowed, just ask Thurl Bailey. The first time a black hand was extended to
my sister in the temple, she wept for joy. everyone I know was thrilled about
the announcement in 1978.
John Lambert | 12:29 p.m. June 10, 2008
To the 1:24 AM poster:
You err not knowing history. Adney Y. Komatsu served as an assistant to the quorum of the 12. I want to say he was called in 1974, but I could be off. He was of complete Japanese descent although born in Hawaii. He was among those transfered from being assistants to the 12 to members of the first quorum of the seventy in 1976, so he was called sometime before then.
Yoshihiko Kikuchi was called as a member of the first quorum of the seventy in 1976. He is a native of Japan.
Just watch "The Other Side of Heaven". Elder Groberg's mission companion, Feki, at that point was only a priest. However that was a result of church policy in Tonga to not ordain unmarried men elders. Feki would serve as a district president (an office one must be an elder to hold) latter in the 1960s when Elder Groberg was mission president.
Agricol Lozano, who was was of the most vocal people in speaking of the good of his fellow Native Americans, was a stake president by 1970.
You err not knowing history. Adney Y. Komatsu served as an assistant to the quorum of the 12. I want to say he was called in 1974, but I could be off. He was of complete Japanese descent although born in Hawaii. He was among those transfered from being assistants to the 12 to members of the first quorum of the seventy in 1976, so he was called sometime before then.
Yoshihiko Kikuchi was called as a member of the first quorum of the seventy in 1976. He is a native of Japan.
Just watch "The Other Side of Heaven". Elder Groberg's mission companion, Feki, at that point was only a priest. However that was a result of church policy in Tonga to not ordain unmarried men elders. Feki would serve as a district president (an office one must be an elder to hold) latter in the 1960s when Elder Groberg was mission president.
Agricol Lozano, who was was of the most vocal people in speaking of the good of his fellow Native Americans, was a stake president by 1970.
John Lambert | 12:36 p.m. June 10, 2008
To continue my post, how do you think the church ever was established in
Central and South America without ordaining Hispanics to the priesthood?
To even ask that question you must be sheltered. Kim Ho Jik was serving as the district president in South Korea in the 1950s. The Hawaii Temple was dedicated in 1919. Many of the patrons were native Hawaiians. Beyond this there were Samoans who migrated to Hawaii to serve in the temple there.
In my previous responses on inter-racial marriage I have limited my responses to couples I knew where one of the people was of African descent. This is not because I have known more of them, but because that is the only group that were not allowed to hold the priesthood.
I have a sister-in-law who is Mexican. That is the only inter-racial marriage I have ever witnessed in the temple, but I have only been to four marriages in the temple. Well, actually I was at another marriage in the temple where one of the people was Native American enough to be a registered member of a tribe, but she did not really consider herself a Potawatamie.
To even ask that question you must be sheltered. Kim Ho Jik was serving as the district president in South Korea in the 1950s. The Hawaii Temple was dedicated in 1919. Many of the patrons were native Hawaiians. Beyond this there were Samoans who migrated to Hawaii to serve in the temple there.
In my previous responses on inter-racial marriage I have limited my responses to couples I knew where one of the people was of African descent. This is not because I have known more of them, but because that is the only group that were not allowed to hold the priesthood.
I have a sister-in-law who is Mexican. That is the only inter-racial marriage I have ever witnessed in the temple, but I have only been to four marriages in the temple. Well, actually I was at another marriage in the temple where one of the people was Native American enough to be a registered member of a tribe, but she did not really consider herself a Potawatamie.
Jack | 12:38 p.m. June 10, 2008
God need not to explain to me or you the reasons for his decisions. We need to
explain to Him the reasons why we make our decisions. Black, White, Red, Yellow
or whatever color its matter not to God but following his commandments matters.
Who are you people asking for an apology for blacks not receiving the priesthood
in the pass? If the Prophet or church leaders did this on their own without
Gods' permission then they will suffer the consequences of their actions
and will be judge accordingly.
TK Lewis | 12:50 p.m. June 10, 2008
My heart swells with joy, knowing that the fullness of our heavenly
father's blessings are available to every worthy male or female & to
see many of our African descendant bros & sis's joining the church
& been called to leadership positions within it.
To all my brothers & sisters in the gospel,
Thanx very much for your intelligent & wise responses to the many questions & comments made. You have aided in strengthening my testimony as is my faith in god's true & living prophets.
I have learnt much about the church that I didn't know of. So thanx to those of you who have brought those things to the fore.
To Leigh Little, my wife who is filipina & I (maori) were sealed in the temple for time & all eternity in June 2007.
To Ronald | 10:08 a.m. June 9, 2008
It's not the colour of a person's skin that defines him or her, but the greatness of his or her heart(1 Samuel 16:7).
God will call whom he will to be his Chief Apostle as President of his ONLY TRUE & LIVING CHURCH.
Noho ora mai
To all my brothers & sisters in the gospel,
Thanx very much for your intelligent & wise responses to the many questions & comments made. You have aided in strengthening my testimony as is my faith in god's true & living prophets.
I have learnt much about the church that I didn't know of. So thanx to those of you who have brought those things to the fore.
To Leigh Little, my wife who is filipina & I (maori) were sealed in the temple for time & all eternity in June 2007.
To Ronald | 10:08 a.m. June 9, 2008
It's not the colour of a person's skin that defines him or her, but the greatness of his or her heart(1 Samuel 16:7).
God will call whom he will to be his Chief Apostle as President of his ONLY TRUE & LIVING CHURCH.
Noho ora mai
John Lambert | 1:06 p.m. June 10, 2008
Brigham Young actually tried to convince the missionaries he sent among the
Native Americans to take Native AMerican wives.
Rafael Monroy was a branch president killed during the Mexican Revolution of 1910. He almost certainly had Indigenous Mexican anestry.
The church was establishing stakes in Latin America, Polynesia and Asia largely lead by Brethren who would generally be defined as not being white. In the United States as well there were Latino, Asian and Native American as well as Polynesian priesthood holders. In some nations like New Zealand, although the population is primarily white, at least as late as the 1970s most church members were Maori.
I could go on but I will try and convince myself I have said enough. Rhee Ho Nam was serving as a counselor in the Korean Mission Presidency in 1965. In 1973 he became a stake president and in 1978 he succedded fellow Korean Han In-Sang as president of the Korea Pusan Mission.
In the early 20th Century, Samuel Taylor Blue, whose mother was a Catawba Indian and who had been raised among the Catawba, was serving as president of the Catawba Branch in South Carolina.
Rafael Monroy was a branch president killed during the Mexican Revolution of 1910. He almost certainly had Indigenous Mexican anestry.
The church was establishing stakes in Latin America, Polynesia and Asia largely lead by Brethren who would generally be defined as not being white. In the United States as well there were Latino, Asian and Native American as well as Polynesian priesthood holders. In some nations like New Zealand, although the population is primarily white, at least as late as the 1970s most church members were Maori.
I could go on but I will try and convince myself I have said enough. Rhee Ho Nam was serving as a counselor in the Korean Mission Presidency in 1965. In 1973 he became a stake president and in 1978 he succedded fellow Korean Han In-Sang as president of the Korea Pusan Mission.
In the early 20th Century, Samuel Taylor Blue, whose mother was a Catawba Indian and who had been raised among the Catawba, was serving as president of the Catawba Branch in South Carolina.
John Lambert | 1:33 p.m. June 10, 2008
To 1:24 poster,
Maybe I went a bit too far in reacting to your question. When ELder Cowley dedicated China for the preaching of the gospel in 1947 there was only one Chinese holder of the priesthood.
In the ward I grew up in there was Brother Hui. He was first ordained an elder no latter than 1975, and I believe earlier than that. He was a native of China, although he mainly grew up in Taiwan.
On my mission I knew a brother from Mexico who had served a mission in the 1960s. The first stake in Japan was formed in 1970 with a stake presidency that was all Japanese.
If you had even read through previous comments you would have seen people site many cases of Hispanics, Native Americans and Asians holding the priesthood for a long time.
One last thing, do not blame Utahns for the nationality/ethnicity confusion. It is common in Michigan and other parts of the country and not limited to Utah alone.
Maybe I went a bit too far in reacting to your question. When ELder Cowley dedicated China for the preaching of the gospel in 1947 there was only one Chinese holder of the priesthood.
In the ward I grew up in there was Brother Hui. He was first ordained an elder no latter than 1975, and I believe earlier than that. He was a native of China, although he mainly grew up in Taiwan.
On my mission I knew a brother from Mexico who had served a mission in the 1960s. The first stake in Japan was formed in 1970 with a stake presidency that was all Japanese.
If you had even read through previous comments you would have seen people site many cases of Hispanics, Native Americans and Asians holding the priesthood for a long time.
One last thing, do not blame Utahns for the nationality/ethnicity confusion. It is common in Michigan and other parts of the country and not limited to Utah alone.
John Lambert | 2:29 p.m. June 10, 2008
Hey Glen,
You are awesome. I served my mission in Las Vegas and so was wondering what ward you are in. I spent over half my mission in the Sunrise Stake.
You are awesome. I served my mission in Las Vegas and so was wondering what ward you are in. I spent over half my mission in the Sunrise Stake.
Things change... | 2:48 p.m. June 10, 2008
I'm reminded of a conference talk awhile back wherein the speaker said that
one of the reasons God uses prophets is that circumstances change. God did not
give instructions on building the ark to Adam, because that was not appropriate
at Adam's time on earth. God did not give the 10 Commandments to Noah,
because that was not appropriate at Noah's time. And so on, it continues
to the present.
In respect to this issue, I would paraphrase this speaker, in that God gave the 1978 revelation to Pres Kimball and not Brigham Young, because it was appropriate in 1978, but probably not in 1878. And there will be things that are appropriate for Pres Monson that weren't for Pres Hinckley, and so on, and so on.
I also loved the example stated earlier that in the Old Testament, at one point only the Levites held the priesthood. Very relevant comparison. I'm glad to be in the Church - and thrilled the Priesthood is now available to all worthy males.
In respect to this issue, I would paraphrase this speaker, in that God gave the 1978 revelation to Pres Kimball and not Brigham Young, because it was appropriate in 1978, but probably not in 1878. And there will be things that are appropriate for Pres Monson that weren't for Pres Hinckley, and so on, and so on.
I also loved the example stated earlier that in the Old Testament, at one point only the Levites held the priesthood. Very relevant comparison. I'm glad to be in the Church - and thrilled the Priesthood is now available to all worthy males.
just me | 5:04 p.m. June 10, 2008
While serving in Detroit it was interesting to me that integration of Blacks was
mostly unheard of. From a totally non religious point of view it would seem
that the LDS were no different than other churches. Why do people criticize us
for waiting for revelation and not too many years from when they made the
change. I'm grateful for the revelation and especially to my many brothers
and sisters in the gospel.
Revelation or Desparation? | 5:31 p.m. June 10, 2008
To Spencer | 12:11 a.m.,
By your logic, God could very well be waiting patiently until the membership of the Church is "ready" in their hearts and minds to "accept" these facts:
- that the Book of Mormon is really not a historical book and is, therefore, not what it claimed to be;
- that the LDS Church is a huge fraud, perpetrated by Joseph Smith, who was a convicted charlatan, treasure-hunter, and deceiver;
- that there really was no "Great Apostasy" (a concept fabricated by James Talmage, BH Roberts, and others under the direction of Heber J. Grant and his cronies);
- that the "priesthood" was never really "restored" by long-dead angels and resurrected beings (all just ghost stories better suited to campfire fables);
- that blacks and women being excluded from this false priesthood is simply modern-day sexism and racism;
- that "Temple marriages" are no different than any other civil marriage, and God prefers that marriage be legalized for ALL people who want to enter into committed relationships, regardless if they are gay or straight.
Do you think God is just waiting around until the members of the LDS Church can handle these truths?
By your logic, God could very well be waiting patiently until the membership of the Church is "ready" in their hearts and minds to "accept" these facts:
- that the Book of Mormon is really not a historical book and is, therefore, not what it claimed to be;
- that the LDS Church is a huge fraud, perpetrated by Joseph Smith, who was a convicted charlatan, treasure-hunter, and deceiver;
- that there really was no "Great Apostasy" (a concept fabricated by James Talmage, BH Roberts, and others under the direction of Heber J. Grant and his cronies);
- that the "priesthood" was never really "restored" by long-dead angels and resurrected beings (all just ghost stories better suited to campfire fables);
- that blacks and women being excluded from this false priesthood is simply modern-day sexism and racism;
- that "Temple marriages" are no different than any other civil marriage, and God prefers that marriage be legalized for ALL people who want to enter into committed relationships, regardless if they are gay or straight.
Do you think God is just waiting around until the members of the LDS Church can handle these truths?
The scriptures...Bible and | 6:09 p.m. June 10, 2008
Book of Mormon are filled with similar situations.
It isn't for us to understand all the mysteries or the revelations.
There is a reason, and when we meet Him someday, we will probably know a lot more than we do now.
We walk by faith, and I am so thankful that the Atlanta Stake has such a wonderful President to guide and direct the people and that his testimony is so grounded and that he actually gets it. When soo many try to question God, he does not.
We will never know all that we would like. That is where faith comes in my friends.
It isn't for us to understand all the mysteries or the revelations.
There is a reason, and when we meet Him someday, we will probably know a lot more than we do now.
We walk by faith, and I am so thankful that the Atlanta Stake has such a wonderful President to guide and direct the people and that his testimony is so grounded and that he actually gets it. When soo many try to question God, he does not.
We will never know all that we would like. That is where faith comes in my friends.
michigan | 6:16 p.m. June 10, 2008
Its a shame that we think we need to explain the whys and where fores when it
comes to black families having the priesthood in their homes. I have read a few
comments and most of them are good but I think for the most part they dont get
to the root cause for withholding this priesthood from our black
brothers.I'm not going to do that either only because I dont know the
reason and I've been a active white member of this church for over 50 years
and have heard it all. I can say one thing is for sure. When I greet a black
member of my ward on sunday I dont see color, I see a latter day saint.Keep in
mind that its the Lord that governs this church.The prophets only carry out His
orders.
Michiganian | 6:20 p.m. June 10, 2008
I was born and raised in Michigan. I went to school with black kids. My parents
raised me to be color-blind so the Mark of Cain story I keep hearing about here
in Utah is total BS to me.
Thank God!
Thank God!
John Lambert | 6:38 p.m. June 10, 2008
The explanations some people give for Blacks not having held the priesthood
are at least as bad as the ones given for polygamy.
The difference is that polygamy is not seen as universally as a negative thing.
I do not have the answers on all the questions. In fact I hardly have any answers.
My only statement is we need to move forward. We need to see that things are changing. There are more Africans exercising the priesthood each day. There are African men serving as sealers, as stake presidents, as bishops, as branch presidents, as members of high councils, as missionaries.
They are still less numerous than they have been in the past. However when a year ago there was no man of African descent serving on my stake's high council despite the fact that our stake has about half of Detroit and is probably in the top 20 stakes in the US for the number of African-Americans living in our boundaries, than there is a long way to go.
The issue is many more women and children of African descent than men have joined around here.
The difference is that polygamy is not seen as universally as a negative thing.
I do not have the answers on all the questions. In fact I hardly have any answers.
My only statement is we need to move forward. We need to see that things are changing. There are more Africans exercising the priesthood each day. There are African men serving as sealers, as stake presidents, as bishops, as branch presidents, as members of high councils, as missionaries.
They are still less numerous than they have been in the past. However when a year ago there was no man of African descent serving on my stake's high council despite the fact that our stake has about half of Detroit and is probably in the top 20 stakes in the US for the number of African-Americans living in our boundaries, than there is a long way to go.
The issue is many more women and children of African descent than men have joined around here.
Alfred | 7:22 p.m. June 10, 2008
You Mormons have a strange concept of what the priesthood is. You believe it is
some mystical and magical power that enables you to do things God would do--like
you have the power to shoot electricity out of your fingertips or something!
It is not. (and you don't)
The priesthood is what the name implies: Priest-hood. Just like neighbor-hood is a group of neighbors. A brother-hood is a group of brothers or people who share a brotherly feeling--the priesthood is simply a group of priests.
To Things change... | 2:48 p.m.
The Levites did NOT "hold the priesthood" in the same elitist and mystical sense the Mormon Church thinks of it today. Their tribe was simply chosen to carry out the logistical duty of putting up and taking down the tabernacle, a large and complex tent. To the extent it became more than that, Jesus opposed and put an end to hierarchies of priesthoods(Hebrews7:28;9:12;10:12). Ministries (apostoloi, presbyteroi, adelphoi, etc.) were charismatic only, not offices in an organization or hierarchy. Do not be fooled by following a "prophet" or an "apostle" or an "elder" as an "office" in a false priesthood. Do not celebrate blacks being included in false priesthood.
It is not. (and you don't)
The priesthood is what the name implies: Priest-hood. Just like neighbor-hood is a group of neighbors. A brother-hood is a group of brothers or people who share a brotherly feeling--the priesthood is simply a group of priests.
To Things change... | 2:48 p.m.
The Levites did NOT "hold the priesthood" in the same elitist and mystical sense the Mormon Church thinks of it today. Their tribe was simply chosen to carry out the logistical duty of putting up and taking down the tabernacle, a large and complex tent. To the extent it became more than that, Jesus opposed and put an end to hierarchies of priesthoods(Hebrews7:28;9:12;10:12). Ministries (apostoloi, presbyteroi, adelphoi, etc.) were charismatic only, not offices in an organization or hierarchy. Do not be fooled by following a "prophet" or an "apostle" or an "elder" as an "office" in a false priesthood. Do not celebrate blacks being included in false priesthood.
John Lambert | 7:42 p.m. June 10, 2008
To Alfred:
The use of the word "magic" and the whole statement about shooting out of finger tips has no part.
The priesthood is the power to act in God's name. It makes the ordinances performed by a holder efficacious. Priesthood blessings can heal the sick and much else.
I guess you can engage in a revisionist redescription of the priesthood. However do not act as if Mormons alone view the priesthood as a power. The Catholics hold that Sacraments must be performed by a priest, not just anyone can hear confession, bless the eucharist or give last rites.
I will celebrate the spread of the priesthood to more men all the more boldly because of your statements. Thomas S. Monson holds all the keys.
Your knee will bow, your tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ, and you will see that his kingdom has been advanced by those exercising his priesthood and performing ordinances for both the living and the dead.
The use of the word "magic" and the whole statement about shooting out of finger tips has no part.
The priesthood is the power to act in God's name. It makes the ordinances performed by a holder efficacious. Priesthood blessings can heal the sick and much else.
I guess you can engage in a revisionist redescription of the priesthood. However do not act as if Mormons alone view the priesthood as a power. The Catholics hold that Sacraments must be performed by a priest, not just anyone can hear confession, bless the eucharist or give last rites.
I will celebrate the spread of the priesthood to more men all the more boldly because of your statements. Thomas S. Monson holds all the keys.
Your knee will bow, your tongue will confess that Jesus is the Christ, and you will see that his kingdom has been advanced by those exercising his priesthood and performing ordinances for both the living and the dead.
In CA | 9:00 p.m. June 10, 2008
Three pages of debate and still over one million Africian LDS members are
celebrating. Some of whom were members before 1978. More will be joining.
Alfred | 9:04 p.m. June 10, 2008
John,
The examples of Catholic priests is a good one, but fails to support your claim. To say that only certain people can perform certain physical acts is trivial. That happens in all organizations. That is not the point. The idea of magic "power" and the idea of something like electricity or magnetism coming out of the hands of Mormons who "hold the priesthood" is exactly the point! Even Catholic doctrine does not claim such things. Priests are the only ones authorized to hear confession, pray, etc. NOT because they hold some mystical/magical power, but simply because to them the Apostolic succession back to Peter and to Christ are essential to the Christian message. By contrast, Mormons honestly believe that some magical "juice" flows through those ordained with the Mormon priesthood and into the bodies of the people they are blessing, or into the oil they are consecrating. It really is very magical and mystical. Why would black people want to celebrate the overdue "revelation" that they can "hold" that?!
You sound as if you are threatening me. Why? You must have had a button pushed to have reacted as you did. Such defensiveness only reveals your own insecurities.
The examples of Catholic priests is a good one, but fails to support your claim. To say that only certain people can perform certain physical acts is trivial. That happens in all organizations. That is not the point. The idea of magic "power" and the idea of something like electricity or magnetism coming out of the hands of Mormons who "hold the priesthood" is exactly the point! Even Catholic doctrine does not claim such things. Priests are the only ones authorized to hear confession, pray, etc. NOT because they hold some mystical/magical power, but simply because to them the Apostolic succession back to Peter and to Christ are essential to the Christian message. By contrast, Mormons honestly believe that some magical "juice" flows through those ordained with the Mormon priesthood and into the bodies of the people they are blessing, or into the oil they are consecrating. It really is very magical and mystical. Why would black people want to celebrate the overdue "revelation" that they can "hold" that?!
You sound as if you are threatening me. Why? You must have had a button pushed to have reacted as you did. Such defensiveness only reveals your own insecurities.
Ronald A. Young | 9:23 p.m. June 10, 2008
I want to catch this Topic before it slides off the Board. Of course we want a
Spirit of Unity. The Church has No Wards Based On Race. Lanague yes, but
everyone is welcome. We do not have the problems in Hawaii that a cpereson might
encounter on the mainland. Sunday in hawaii is far from the Whiteist Day of the
Week. Hawaiians, Japanese, Chiense, Samoans, Black people and mixed raced people
hald many callings to include Stake Presidents. The Mayor of Honolulu is a
Member born and raised. He is/was on a High Council. His Wife is Not A Member.
What works here , would not always work on the Mainland. Even White are included
and are Bishops, Stake Presidents, and Temple Presidents. This is more apparent
in the Wards that are near Military Housing. The mixing is amazing and the Aloha
is Great. As in everything there are Decenters and some folks cannot handle the
Curtral Diverisity. You should see our Pot Luck Dinners. Last Ward Chili Cook
Off I had Pineapple in one of my Pots. We understand Hot Sauce. Of course we
want Unity. We have our differences our sameness is the Gospel.
Racial LDS Groups | 9:49 p.m. June 10, 2008
Ronald,
You are wrong. The Church has the Genesis Group that is based on race. Yes, whites can join and attend, but it has only black leadership and is a group dedicated to black LDS people to make them feel at home in the LDS Church, and to serve as a support group for black people who are trying to come to terms with a century of LDS institutionalized racism.
You are wrong. The Church has the Genesis Group that is based on race. Yes, whites can join and attend, but it has only black leadership and is a group dedicated to black LDS people to make them feel at home in the LDS Church, and to serve as a support group for black people who are trying to come to terms with a century of LDS institutionalized racism.
Beatrice... | 10:04 p.m. June 10, 2008
The TRUTH is LDS Church leaders knew their racist policy directly scuttled
George W. Romney's Presidential bid in 1968. That is a matter of historical
fact. Then George Romney's cousin, Marion G. Romney, was promoted to the
LDS First Presidency in 1972, and lobbied for a change among the LDS leadership.
He finally prevailed on Kimball and the apostles, a conveniant
"revelation" was declared, and he was one of the signers of the
"Official Declaration 2," in 1978. Of course it is not treated on the
same level as other "revelations" in the D&C. Just like polygamy,
it is just an administrative policy change, not a doctrinal change. The LDS
Church STILL teaches "the New and Everlasting Covenant of [plural]
Marriage" as doctrine, and they still consider all the racist doctrines by
their past prophets as true -- that blacks were descended from Cain and were
cursed, etc.
That is POLITICS, NOT REVELATION! And any black person who goes along with the lies the LDS Church tells about their racist policy betrays their own race! This is nothing to celebrate! It is something to mourn...
That is POLITICS, NOT REVELATION! And any black person who goes along with the lies the LDS Church tells about their racist policy betrays their own race! This is nothing to celebrate! It is something to mourn...
John Lambert | 10:24 p.m. June 10, 2008
Alfred,
No one has ever claimed that anything comes out of the hands of priesthood holders. The power is held by God and it is exercised by blessings and by faith.
No one has ever claimed that anything comes out of the hands of priesthood holders. The power is held by God and it is exercised by blessings and by faith.
In CA | 10:30 p.m. June 10, 2008
Racial LDS Groups | 9:49 p.m. June 10, 2008
You were right up to your last ten words. Read their web site. They do not have to come to terms with anything because they choose to be LDS members. But there is the Black Chamber of commerce, Congressional Black Caucus, National African American Tobacco Prevention Network, etc. And as I am a member of Mexican-American groups, doesn't mean I have to come to terms with any one. Your insults aren't welcomed.
You were right up to your last ten words. Read their web site. They do not have to come to terms with anything because they choose to be LDS members. But there is the Black Chamber of commerce, Congressional Black Caucus, National African American Tobacco Prevention Network, etc. And as I am a member of Mexican-American groups, doesn't mean I have to come to terms with any one. Your insults aren't welcomed.
John Lambert | 10:30 p.m. June 10, 2008
Beatrice,
If the Church was so concerned about politics than why did they not change the policy in 1966?
You are right, OD 2 is not seen on the same level as other revelations in the Doctrine and COvennants, it is seen as coming in a truer way as revelation recieved in the temple under the proper order instead of the early revelations that were recieved in the preparatory way through the Urim and Thumim. At least that is how some of us view the issue.
The New and Everalsting Covenant of marriage is performed between one man and one woman. You have failed to see that this is the condition for exaltation stated in Doctrine and Covenants 132.
There may be people in the church today who think that OD 2 is not binding, just as there were people in the church in 1920 who felt the same way about OD 1. However, President Hinckley reiterated the position of the church on all worthy males holding the priesthood in 2006.
If the LDS Church does not care about its members of African descent than why have they built a temple in Ghana and another in Nigeria?
If the Church was so concerned about politics than why did they not change the policy in 1966?
You are right, OD 2 is not seen on the same level as other revelations in the Doctrine and COvennants, it is seen as coming in a truer way as revelation recieved in the temple under the proper order instead of the early revelations that were recieved in the preparatory way through the Urim and Thumim. At least that is how some of us view the issue.
The New and Everalsting Covenant of marriage is performed between one man and one woman. You have failed to see that this is the condition for exaltation stated in Doctrine and Covenants 132.
There may be people in the church today who think that OD 2 is not binding, just as there were people in the church in 1920 who felt the same way about OD 1. However, President Hinckley reiterated the position of the church on all worthy males holding the priesthood in 2006.
If the LDS Church does not care about its members of African descent than why have they built a temple in Ghana and another in Nigeria?
John Lambert | 10:37 p.m. June 10, 2008
To Beatrice,
Lenore Romney, George's wife, ran for senate here in Michigan in 1970. It is generally thought that she lost because the white residents of Warren were outraged at her husbands HUD plans that would have lead to a major increase in the number of African-Americans in their city. This is obviously an example of the church's "racist" positions hurting members attempts to gain public office. NOT.
Lenore Romney, George's wife, ran for senate here in Michigan in 1970. It is generally thought that she lost because the white residents of Warren were outraged at her husbands HUD plans that would have lead to a major increase in the number of African-Americans in their city. This is obviously an example of the church's "racist" positions hurting members attempts to gain public office. NOT.
Anonymous | 11:03 p.m. June 10, 2008
June 8, 1978 was a Thursday. Any celebrations on the Friday occurred on June 9.
To Mr. Lambert... | 11:19 p.m. June 10, 2008
Are you kidding me? Why would you call someone "sheltered" for not
knowing everything about Mormon history? If you read my post, you would know I
was asking a question in order to gain new insight on the issue. Sorry, but as
a relatively new convert, I've never heard of "Kim Ho Jik" or
"Samuel Blue." And no, I didn't read every detail of every post.
You are quite presumptuous and arrogant. Maybe you should re-read your
priesthood manual--I'm sure you will find a chapter or two on PRIDE. There
is nothing wrong with your knowledge of history, but why don't you try
sharing it without being an a-hole. That's right, I'm not a perfect
Mormon--but I don't pretend to be either.
When? | 11:46 p.m. June 10, 2008
Its too bad this kind of thing is publized more. It would have been a good thing
to go to.
Anonymous | 8:40 a.m. June 11, 2008
To John,
I assume you are LDS. So am I. Dear Brother, would you please refrain from being so arrogant and embarrassing our faith so readily? Your comments are offensive even to many of us fellow LDS members. And many of your comments are just plain wrong. Please keep your erroneous opinions to yourself before you do more damage than you have already done.
Thanks,
A Fellow Latter-day Saint.
I assume you are LDS. So am I. Dear Brother, would you please refrain from being so arrogant and embarrassing our faith so readily? Your comments are offensive even to many of us fellow LDS members. And many of your comments are just plain wrong. Please keep your erroneous opinions to yourself before you do more damage than you have already done.
Thanks,
A Fellow Latter-day Saint.
To Alfred | 8:53 a.m. June 11, 2008
I'm afraid you are mistaken. Nobody said anything about members having
electricity shoot out of their fingertips when they hold the Priesthood. This is
not Return of the Jedi, this is real life.
But the power of the Priesthood is very real. It's not just about performing ordinances and rites. I have been healed on several occasions through Priesthood blessings, and know many others who have as well. Divine counsel has been given to me more times than I can count through that same power of blessing.
Please do not mock what you don't understand. No one's asking you to believe it, but please don't come on this board and insult and denigrate us and our beliefs just because they're foreign to you and yours.
But the power of the Priesthood is very real. It's not just about performing ordinances and rites. I have been healed on several occasions through Priesthood blessings, and know many others who have as well. Divine counsel has been given to me more times than I can count through that same power of blessing.
Please do not mock what you don't understand. No one's asking you to believe it, but please don't come on this board and insult and denigrate us and our beliefs just because they're foreign to you and yours.
Susn | 10:13 a.m. June 11, 2008
My sister went on an LDS mission to Tennessee. She and her companion met and
taught a black family. She was terrified to take them to church the first
time--an almost all white ward--and she was right. Nobody would talk to them or
sit by them. She talked them into attending a ward barbeque. It was pot luck and
this family brought food that my sister knew they couldn't afford, trying
to fit it. Again, nobody talked to them or acknowledged them. Racism is alive
and well in the church, believe me. And no, they didn't join the church.
John Lambert | 10:49 a.m. June 11, 2008
The Genesis Group is neither a ward nor an organization meant to exist in lieu
of a ward. It is a group formed to try to help and work with people with a
particular ethnic background.
Once we realize that being African-American is an ethnic group and talk of it as such we will make a lot of progress. I know African-Americans who are lighter than me, but that does not make them any less so.
Once we realize that being African-American is an ethnic group and talk of it as such we will make a lot of progress. I know African-Americans who are lighter than me, but that does not make them any less so.
A.A.T | 10:52 a.m. June 11, 2008
To the 5:31 (revelation or Desparaton? post):
Reguarding Spencer's comment, because I totally agreed with him;
The flaw in your premise was the term "Logic"
The issues you were raising were not issues of logic, but issues of FAITH.
Faith in something can bring about an entirely different source of logic than a person without faith in that thing.
Reguarding Spencer's comment, because I totally agreed with him;
The flaw in your premise was the term "Logic"
The issues you were raising were not issues of logic, but issues of FAITH.
Faith in something can bring about an entirely different source of logic than a person without faith in that thing.
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Alex Boye sings at the Tabernacle during the commemoration of the 30th anniversary of the announcement extending the LDS priesthood to "all worthy males."
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