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LDS marking 30-year milestone
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Ban Lifting | 1:18 a.m. June 7, 2008
So when will the church lift its ban on Blacks becoming a General Authority?
Blacks | 1:20 a.m. June 7, 2008
With 1 million Black LDS members, shouldn't there be at least 1 Black
Apostle?
Comments continue below
ER in AF | 4:05 a.m. June 7, 2008
As the Branch President in one of the newest branches in Africa I am humbled by
the dedication of many of the members here. I am origanaly from Utah. We have
one dedicated Brother that rides a motorcycle taxi and then transfers to a
minibus taxi around 4 hours each way to church. He starts on Saturday and heads
back as soon as church is over at noon on Sunday. It is true we could baptise
many, but we must first grow into a strong branch before we can support a bunch
of new members. The Lord gathers his people. Within weeks of being organized,
without pre-knowledge, we had a former Stake RS President move in and a fine
Brother who has been a former Branch President/District President/High Councilor
move in from other countries. The Lord knew I needed help.
RE: Blacks | 5:40 a.m. June 7, 2008
> With 1 million Black LDS members, shouldn't
> there be at least 1 Black Apostle?
Not necessarily. Think about experience. All the current apostles are old enough to have more church leadership experience than all the Church's black members. If there should be one black apostle, there should also be one apostle under age 50.
More importantly, and more spiritually, the apostles don't represent the members of the Church. They represent the Lord TO the Church, and He chooses based on His designs.
Finally, this is an anniversary of a joyous occasion. Celebrate, don't criticize!
> there be at least 1 Black Apostle?
Not necessarily. Think about experience. All the current apostles are old enough to have more church leadership experience than all the Church's black members. If there should be one black apostle, there should also be one apostle under age 50.
More importantly, and more spiritually, the apostles don't represent the members of the Church. They represent the Lord TO the Church, and He chooses based on His designs.
Finally, this is an anniversary of a joyous occasion. Celebrate, don't criticize!
Re: Ban Lifting | 6:40 a.m. June 7, 2008
There's a "ban"?
Provo | 6:55 a.m. June 7, 2008
Soon, the LDS Church will have at least 10 million members in India and in China
since the Elders are already there on the ground spreading the word. If we get
at least 5% of the population in both of these countries, we could become as big
as Islam in a few centuries.
Church affirmative action? | 7:13 a.m. June 7, 2008
Church callings are not based on the color of skin.
God is color blind | 7:15 a.m. June 7, 2008
This is in response to both "Ban Lifting" and "Blacks":
Apostles are called according to whom God wants. Period. He does not call them
by color, language, race, ethnicity or country of origin.
re: black and band lifing | 7:29 a.m. June 7, 2008
don't ask the church, ask the lord. the leaders of the church never applied
for their job. its a calling from on high. educate your self before committing.
no ban to be lifted | 8:06 a.m. June 7, 2008
There have already been and are General Authorities and General Officers of the
Church who are Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc. Men and women who are called to
positions of General Authorities and General Officers of the Church bring
decades of experience. The growth in membership of one group will be reflected
in an increase in representation of that group in a couple decades. Give me
patience and give it to me right now.
HWB | 8:11 a.m. June 7, 2008
re.PROVO....Not true. there are not 10 million members in India. Nor will
there ever be.
That's silly.
That's silly.
Always something negative to say | 8:23 a.m. June 7, 2008
Never knew there was a ban on African's to be a General Authority. Can
someone show me where that is in the doctrine? Don't forget that this
church is directed and lead by our Heavenly Father and not by a vote of its
members. When the Lord sees fit for anyone to serve in different callings, He
will make sure that person is called to serve.
Leroy | 8:45 a.m. June 7, 2008
Oh I think there is a "Ban" on blacks in the GA look at the 70's
for Africa, they're all white...
Anonymous | 9:17 a.m. June 7, 2008
Apostles are called according to whom God wants. Why does God only want white
men?
SkinDog | 9:18 a.m. June 7, 2008
It astounds me when people play the 'when God sees it fit' card (see
always something negative to say's rant) as a logical answer to thorny
questions. You can use that in ANY instance at any time, just like suicide
bombing Islams who believe they will be exalted in heaven and given a harem of
virgins for their 'noble' act of killing themselves and others for
'the cause', as if it came directly from Mohammed (God) himself.
I think it's ludicrous to suggest there is a 'ban' on non-whites being GA's. However, there is still a ton of racism that exists in our society, period. It's not exclusionary to any one sect, religion, etc. Having prejudice and feelings of fear or apprehension towards others with different skin colors, ethnicities, social status, etc. is common in most people, even if we say we're not racist, prejudice, homophobic, etc. There are very few 'true' Christians in this world (I'm not even close).
I think the LDS Church should have allowed blacks to have the Priesthood long before they did - Hugh B. Brown suggested as much in the 60s but McKay was ultra conservative and allegedly thought otherwise.
I think it's ludicrous to suggest there is a 'ban' on non-whites being GA's. However, there is still a ton of racism that exists in our society, period. It's not exclusionary to any one sect, religion, etc. Having prejudice and feelings of fear or apprehension towards others with different skin colors, ethnicities, social status, etc. is common in most people, even if we say we're not racist, prejudice, homophobic, etc. There are very few 'true' Christians in this world (I'm not even close).
I think the LDS Church should have allowed blacks to have the Priesthood long before they did - Hugh B. Brown suggested as much in the 60s but McKay was ultra conservative and allegedly thought otherwise.
Folklore | 9:22 a.m. June 7, 2008
Are you kidding me that the ban on blacks in the priesthood was the result of
folklore? The ban was the result of Church doctrine and official teaching on
the matter, which taught that dark skin was a sign of prior spiritual
transgressions. The BOM makes specific reference to God darkening the skin of
the Lamanites, and dark skin is referred to as a curse in the Pearl of Great
Price and the Book of Moses. Both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young taught that
blacks were descended from Cain, whose curse was to be darkened black. Brigham
taught that those who married interracially should be killed. This isn't
folklore, this is doctrine taught by the Church and its leaders. The doctrine
changed in the middle of the civil rights movement in the midst of incredible
external pressure. The fact that blacks were allowed the priesthood was the
right thing to do, but 30 years later to dismiss the doctrine surrounding the
ban and the reasons for lifting it are misleading and false.
Oops! | 9:31 a.m. June 7, 2008
In scripture,it says:
"As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek; there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise." Galatians
Everyone, who is 'baptized into Christ' is equal in ALL things (I see no restrictions)if your clothed in Christ!
So,are you saying that Blacks that are baptized 'in Christ' are unworthy? and why would that be? Just because they are Black? Why would God, who broke down the barriers between 'Jews and Gentiles' and "men and women" (who in the time of Jesus, Gentiles and Women were consider as unclean and as chattel)disregard a people because of their skin color? There is nothing....nothing in God's Word that says anything by the Lord or by the people in any culture that discriminates by color...so, why should we?
It is a extreme insult to all people of color. Whether your black or white, it is a sin to believe that the Lord would condict, Himself.
"As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek; there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise." Galatians
Everyone, who is 'baptized into Christ' is equal in ALL things (I see no restrictions)if your clothed in Christ!
So,are you saying that Blacks that are baptized 'in Christ' are unworthy? and why would that be? Just because they are Black? Why would God, who broke down the barriers between 'Jews and Gentiles' and "men and women" (who in the time of Jesus, Gentiles and Women were consider as unclean and as chattel)disregard a people because of their skin color? There is nothing....nothing in God's Word that says anything by the Lord or by the people in any culture that discriminates by color...so, why should we?
It is a extreme insult to all people of color. Whether your black or white, it is a sin to believe that the Lord would condict, Himself.
Nate | 9:32 a.m. June 7, 2008
1 million black members....250,000 in Africa. Me thinks these numbers are some
how inflated.
EnochIpsen | 9:35 a.m. June 7, 2008
Individuals weren't baptized because there wasn't a basis for
retention? Odd thought process. Mexico, Central & South America has only a
10%-25% retention. If 10% is acceptable now why not then?
Jud | 9:59 a.m. June 7, 2008
There's no ban. Elder Helvecio Martins was the first black General
Authority, called in the 1980s to the Seventy, I believe.
Re:Ban lifting | 10:08 a.m. June 7, 2008
I'm not even LDS and would hope the Lord would not choose his leaders based
your criteria!.
Re:SkinDog | 10:10 a.m. June 7, 2008
You have issuse beyond this atricle go get help now!.
Re: Provo | 10:16 a.m. June 7, 2008
Thank goodness we won't be around to witness it.
John Lambert | 10:17 a.m. June 7, 2008
To the commentor at 1:17AM,
There has been a black General Authority, or have you never heard of Helvecio Martins? He was a member of the second quorum of the seventy from 1990-1995.
There has been a black General Authority, or have you never heard of Helvecio Martins? He was a member of the second quorum of the seventy from 1990-1995.
John Lambert | 10:21 a.m. June 7, 2008
To 1:20AM,
To began with apostles are called by the loard. Anyway, with 13 million members, 1 million is less than one in 12. However, aposltes do not represent constituencies. Patience is a value. Things are changing. I wish they were changing faster, but I am hoping that the people who condemn people based on their ancestry are loosing numbers.
I guess I am more thinking of the other article about Darius Gray and his attempts to bring people to a new understanding of blacks and the priesthood. I commend him for these efforts. I wish there was a way for there to be more people to take up the cause and change perceptions.
To began with apostles are called by the loard. Anyway, with 13 million members, 1 million is less than one in 12. However, aposltes do not represent constituencies. Patience is a value. Things are changing. I wish they were changing faster, but I am hoping that the people who condemn people based on their ancestry are loosing numbers.
I guess I am more thinking of the other article about Darius Gray and his attempts to bring people to a new understanding of blacks and the priesthood. I commend him for these efforts. I wish there was a way for there to be more people to take up the cause and change perceptions.
John Lambert | 10:31 a.m. June 7, 2008
The church is at different stages in different parts of Africa. In Ghana and
Nigeria there are temples, stakes and so on. Yet even in those countries there
are areas where the church has hardly reached yet. At the end of 2006 there
were still only 116 wards to 138 branches in Nigeria. There were 16 stakes in
the country, but that is fewer stakes than there are in Mesa Arizona. There
were also 14 districts.
On the other hand there is Kenya. There is one stake and one district in that nation of about 33 million people. That means that Kenya's population is just under that of California, and And greater than that of Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Arizona, New Mexico, Oregon and Washington combined.
However then there is Malawi, with 12 million people, or about the population of Illinois, and only three branchs. The church has barely began to emerge in Africa.
On the other hand there is Kenya. There is one stake and one district in that nation of about 33 million people. That means that Kenya's population is just under that of California, and And greater than that of Nevada, Utah, Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, Arizona, New Mexico, Oregon and Washington combined.
However then there is Malawi, with 12 million people, or about the population of Illinois, and only three branchs. The church has barely began to emerge in Africa.
John Lambert | 10:38 a.m. June 7, 2008
Nate:
It is true that this is just an off the top of his head guess by Elder Child. On the other hand, you have to remember that virtually all people in the Caribbean have African ancestry to some extent. There are 150,000 church members in the Caribean. The numbers for Brazil, people of African descent in the US, people of African descent in England and France, and people for African descent in mainland Spanish speaking Latin America are hard to know. The Church does not keep race statistics on members, and if you tried doing a study you would have to decide on the definitions of race to use.
It is true that this is just an off the top of his head guess by Elder Child. On the other hand, you have to remember that virtually all people in the Caribbean have African ancestry to some extent. There are 150,000 church members in the Caribean. The numbers for Brazil, people of African descent in the US, people of African descent in England and France, and people for African descent in mainland Spanish speaking Latin America are hard to know. The Church does not keep race statistics on members, and if you tried doing a study you would have to decide on the definitions of race to use.
Brother Chuck Schroeder | 10:38 a.m. June 7, 2008
I also would like to see the black LDS membership more represented at leadership
positions. I'm not sure why blacks are not proportionately represented at
the leadership level.
Riley | 10:45 a.m. June 7, 2008
I'm white, LDS, and ashamed of the latent racism the most definitely
existed in the church for the last 100 years. There is no excuse for it. All
are alike unto God. He is no respector of persons. All are invited to come
unto Christ.
30 year anniversary | 11:00 a.m. June 7, 2008
WoW...
Let's see...what was happening just previous to those 30 years? Oh,ya,that's right...the Equal Rights movement of the 60s !
It's a good thing, the world-at-large brought that up, and was able to 'reveal' that revelation to the prophet! Here, I thought it was suppose to be from the Lord !
It must have been the strain from the pressure that was exserted from the government; educational system and Human Rights organizations (composed by those 'other' Christians) that did it. Including the prophet: Martin Luther King, Jr.
Let's see...what was happening just previous to those 30 years? Oh,ya,that's right...the Equal Rights movement of the 60s !
It's a good thing, the world-at-large brought that up, and was able to 'reveal' that revelation to the prophet! Here, I thought it was suppose to be from the Lord !
It must have been the strain from the pressure that was exserted from the government; educational system and Human Rights organizations (composed by those 'other' Christians) that did it. Including the prophet: Martin Luther King, Jr.
PJ from Sandy | 12:08 p.m. June 7, 2008
After reading the comments I'm convinced more and more that some people
just shouldn't be invited to celebrations! You're intitled to express
your opinion but you remind me of the snootie lady that people invite to the
party so she won't feel bad,then they have to listen to her complain all
night about the food isn't perfect,the decorations are so old fashion and
why isn't the host more "with it"! Yes, in my lifetime things
have changed! For the better! Yeah! Be glad, don't keep beating that old
drum.So unproductive.How grateful I am that this changed happened in my
lifetime.One of those moments etched in my memory! Then the frosting on the cake
was having a son called to serve in Ghana.A visiting Ghanaian told me he was a
black man hiding in a white man's skin. I couldn't have been more
proud! It meant that he was one of them,not the other way around! Yes,we are all
alike unto God... even the complainers!!!
Bruce | 12:17 p.m. June 7, 2008
The Pearl of Great Price and the Book of Moses make things very clear regarding
the black race.
Deviation from that is as revealing as the manifesto that priesthood authority lies elsewhere.
"God is no respector of persons" is very true. He is even less a respector of political correctness.
Deviation from that is as revealing as the manifesto that priesthood authority lies elsewhere.
"God is no respector of persons" is very true. He is even less a respector of political correctness.
AshanteBoy | 12:21 p.m. June 7, 2008
Yeah, the LDS Church leadership definitely caved to the "IMMENSE
pressure" of the 60's civil rights movement...in 1978? Hmmm. Sounds
pretty immense.
I forgot that the Church leadership is there to align the CHURCH with what what SOCIETY wants, including endorsing gay marriage, abortion, and immorality. Hopefully these leaders will catch up soon so we all can start smoking weed in sacrament meeting.
PS- The LDS church officially allowed black leadership LONG before any other mainstream church. So dont act like they were FINALLY catching up to the rest of the world. They were the first to do so, under God's direction. Get your facts straight.
I forgot that the Church leadership is there to align the CHURCH with what what SOCIETY wants, including endorsing gay marriage, abortion, and immorality. Hopefully these leaders will catch up soon so we all can start smoking weed in sacrament meeting.
PS- The LDS church officially allowed black leadership LONG before any other mainstream church. So dont act like they were FINALLY catching up to the rest of the world. They were the first to do so, under God's direction. Get your facts straight.
Ernest T. Bass | 12:28 p.m. June 7, 2008
The ban was based on myth and folklore, nothing more.
The ban completely contradicts the 2nd article of faith. Those who say it is due to some form of valiency in the pre-existance, show us all canonized scripture that says so.
Who was it that said the civil rights movement was a communist plot?
Anyone who believes God intended it until 1978 is living in a cloud.
The ban completely contradicts the 2nd article of faith. Those who say it is due to some form of valiency in the pre-existance, show us all canonized scripture that says so.
Who was it that said the civil rights movement was a communist plot?
Anyone who believes God intended it until 1978 is living in a cloud.
Aaron Shafovaloff | 12:38 p.m. June 7, 2008
I'd invite anyone to look at the official statement of the First Presidency
to BYU President Ernest L. Wilkinson, dated August 17, 1951, quoted in John
Lewis Lund, The Church and the Negro, p.89.
The LDS First Presidency clearly stated, and I quote, "It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization..." They go on to say, "The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality..."
Integrity demands an apology and a repudiation, not a weak distancing or a half-baked reversal.
The LDS First Presidency clearly stated, and I quote, "It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization..." They go on to say, "The position of the Church regarding the Negro may be understood when another doctrine of the church is kept in mind, namely, that the conduct of spirits in the pre-mortal existence has some determining effect upon the conditions and circumstances under which these spirits take on mortality..."
Integrity demands an apology and a repudiation, not a weak distancing or a half-baked reversal.
'Folklore' is a euphemism | 1:20 p.m. June 7, 2008
You don't need a revelation to override 'folklore'. Make no
mistake - the ban on blacks, if we hesitate to call it 'doctrine,' was
official Church policy. The suggestion that the ban on blacks was based on
'folklore' is a bad idea because it admits the Church has in the past
based official policy on folklore.
Hence if the ban on blacks was based on folklore, who's to say the rest of the teachings aren't? Here's a few others:
Satan controls the waters = folklore
Foreordination = folklore
Husbands "preside" over their families = folklore
Hence if the ban on blacks was based on folklore, who's to say the rest of the teachings aren't? Here's a few others:
Satan controls the waters = folklore
Foreordination = folklore
Husbands "preside" over their families = folklore
Ignorance | 1:24 p.m. June 7, 2008
Tolerant is a dangerous word. People believe that tolerance means accepting
anything because it's wrong to do otherwise.
This simply isn't true. The church had every right to hold this until the 70's and whether there is a black apostle or not is their right and it has NOTHING to do with being racist or not.
Because Women aren't in the 12 does that make us sexist? There has never been a black pope and you never hear about that. The LDS church is only criticized by people who feel hurt or hard feelings for small things.
If we believe that black history involves cain, then by the same belief we believe that blacks would be black for a reason. Now I don't feel that makes black less in any way, shape, or form. But I do believe that they will have a different role for this earth. Just as I feel women have a different role with motherhood and marriage; this does not make them less, but it does give them DIFFERENT responsibilities.
We don't know enough about this life to claim God is wrong. There are those who seek truth and those who pretend to create it.
This simply isn't true. The church had every right to hold this until the 70's and whether there is a black apostle or not is their right and it has NOTHING to do with being racist or not.
Because Women aren't in the 12 does that make us sexist? There has never been a black pope and you never hear about that. The LDS church is only criticized by people who feel hurt or hard feelings for small things.
If we believe that black history involves cain, then by the same belief we believe that blacks would be black for a reason. Now I don't feel that makes black less in any way, shape, or form. But I do believe that they will have a different role for this earth. Just as I feel women have a different role with motherhood and marriage; this does not make them less, but it does give them DIFFERENT responsibilities.
We don't know enough about this life to claim God is wrong. There are those who seek truth and those who pretend to create it.
John Lambert | 1:27 p.m. June 7, 2008
To Aaron,
A letter in response to an individual's inquiry is not an official statement, no matter what the position of the person is.
To Bruce,
You either have not read the book of Mormon or fail to comprehend it. WHere does it ever say anything about people of African descent at all? Might as well try to justify excluding Mongolians from the priesthood with it.
YOur attack on the manifesto makes me suspect you are a believer that we should be practicing polygamy as well today. I would be very happy if all the people who in their heart thought that the revelation on the priesthood was just caving to social pressure and not really meant to be followed and incorporated would leave the church. Then maybe we would have less of these racist baggae holders making racists statements that cause African-American members to stop attending.
I saw this happen on my mission, and my only regret is I did not interupt the class to call the teacher out on his totally uncalled for and racist statement. However, I at the time felt that decorum had value. I am unsure now.
A letter in response to an individual's inquiry is not an official statement, no matter what the position of the person is.
To Bruce,
You either have not read the book of Mormon or fail to comprehend it. WHere does it ever say anything about people of African descent at all? Might as well try to justify excluding Mongolians from the priesthood with it.
YOur attack on the manifesto makes me suspect you are a believer that we should be practicing polygamy as well today. I would be very happy if all the people who in their heart thought that the revelation on the priesthood was just caving to social pressure and not really meant to be followed and incorporated would leave the church. Then maybe we would have less of these racist baggae holders making racists statements that cause African-American members to stop attending.
I saw this happen on my mission, and my only regret is I did not interupt the class to call the teacher out on his totally uncalled for and racist statement. However, I at the time felt that decorum had value. I am unsure now.
Ignorance(Continued) | 1:30 p.m. June 7, 2008
If standing in front of God do I tell him he is wrong for not allowing the
priesthood for a time or do I ask him why?
Many criticize the church and few do anything that is productive. I choose to humble myself and learn what I can in this life. I choose to believe in things.
I don't choose that I decide what I want my religion to be and if I don't like it I just change pastors every time they say something I don't like. I choose to believe in a God who is wiser than myself and ask him to teach me things about this world and the next. Rather than I DECIDE that the LDS church is racist or not.
People are not ready for the good things the LDS church is capable of and therefor they get very little out of their efforts.
Produce good things or destroy them. Standing in the middle and doing nothing is as bad as destroying them.
I choose to focus on the good. My beliefs about the LDS church and blacks are that I will one day know. I'm patient. I believe in God. It is my right.
Many criticize the church and few do anything that is productive. I choose to humble myself and learn what I can in this life. I choose to believe in things.
I don't choose that I decide what I want my religion to be and if I don't like it I just change pastors every time they say something I don't like. I choose to believe in a God who is wiser than myself and ask him to teach me things about this world and the next. Rather than I DECIDE that the LDS church is racist or not.
People are not ready for the good things the LDS church is capable of and therefor they get very little out of their efforts.
Produce good things or destroy them. Standing in the middle and doing nothing is as bad as destroying them.
I choose to focus on the good. My beliefs about the LDS church and blacks are that I will one day know. I'm patient. I believe in God. It is my right.
imashimekana | 1:38 p.m. June 7, 2008
I have always wondered about Church "rules" that are not part of
scripture or even found in published attributed statements. If (as the First
Presidency statement quoted below indicates) there is an issue resolved by
"a direct commandment from the Lord," then where can I find that
commandment? Where is it in the scriptures? If it is not published--only
referred to indirectly--how can it be considered a commandment? Don't we
need to know the commandment and have it actually given by a prophet. "You
know, I heard that it is said that the Lord wants us to . . . . . "
Quoting from Aaron Shafovaloff's post:
The LDS First Presidency clearly stated, and I quote, "It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization..."
Quoting from Aaron Shafovaloff's post:
The LDS First Presidency clearly stated, and I quote, "It is not a matter of the declaration of a policy but of direct commandment from the Lord, on which is founded the doctrine of the Church from the days of its organization..."
Anonymous | 2:05 p.m. June 7, 2008
The fact that isn�t mentioned is that BYU was faced with
losing grant money due to the LDS church�s prejudice
against blacks.
Sam Hofer | 2:17 p.m. June 7, 2008
Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more
than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Apparently, there are quite a few other unknown criteria as well.
My post on this topic was bang on. Under 200 words, no abuse or URL's.
Didn't make it, though.
Apparently, there are quite a few other unknown criteria as well.
My post on this topic was bang on. Under 200 words, no abuse or URL's.
Didn't make it, though.
Cotton | 2:20 p.m. June 7, 2008
I wonder if the timing of this article has something to do with the nomination
of a black man, Obama, as the Democratic nominee for president of the United
States? Ya think?
Stymie | 2:23 p.m. June 7, 2008
There was no "revelation" as far as blacks receiving the priesthood in
the LDS church. It was all about the LDS church losing it's tax exempt
status, and the political and social pressure of the time. Anyone who says
otherwise is deluding themselves.
Lem | 2:29 p.m. June 7, 2008
Does anyone else find it humorous that the LDS church receives
"revelations" when they are socially or politically expedient? Say for
instance the "revelations" about polygamy and blacks receiving the
priesthood? I'm sure LDS members don't find it funny, but the rest of
the world does.
It is not "revelation" | 2:41 p.m. June 7, 2008
It is "realization"....Think about it. How many times in our lives do
we "realize" things?
Aaron Shafovaloff | 3:02 p.m. June 7, 2008
When a *group* of the highest leadership of an any organization sends a signed
letter to someone like the president of a university, it's a stretch to
call it anything other than "official", especially when that group is
comprised of supposed prophets and apostles.
Mormonism has about 5 or 6 different standards of determining what is "official", and picks and chooses whichever one is most convenient at the time.
In the dictionary, "folklore" is defined as unwritten lore that is passed down through tradition or anecdote. Calling the "curse of Cain" teaching mere folklore obscures the fact that it was institutionally promoted and institutionally perpetuated---publicly and explicitly and in writing. It was rooted in the teachings of men considered to be prophets and apostles, the conduits of prophetic counsel and the stream of continuing revelation.
Authentic repentance, integrity, and love for people would demand not only a distancing by a lack of repetition, but also a formal, official, explicit apology for and repudiation of the priesthood ban and the teachings historically used to theologically justify it. Mormonism�s institution arrogantly sees itself as above having to give an apology.
Shame, shame, shame on you Mormonism.
Mormonism has about 5 or 6 different standards of determining what is "official", and picks and chooses whichever one is most convenient at the time.
In the dictionary, "folklore" is defined as unwritten lore that is passed down through tradition or anecdote. Calling the "curse of Cain" teaching mere folklore obscures the fact that it was institutionally promoted and institutionally perpetuated---publicly and explicitly and in writing. It was rooted in the teachings of men considered to be prophets and apostles, the conduits of prophetic counsel and the stream of continuing revelation.
Authentic repentance, integrity, and love for people would demand not only a distancing by a lack of repetition, but also a formal, official, explicit apology for and repudiation of the priesthood ban and the teachings historically used to theologically justify it. Mormonism�s institution arrogantly sees itself as above having to give an apology.
Shame, shame, shame on you Mormonism.
To Aaron | 3:17 p.m. June 7, 2008
I agree. I grew up in the LDS church. I never sought to find fault in it, but
the issue of the priesthood ban was even painful to me as a child in the 1980s.
I grew up hearing the folkloric explanations and Bruce R. McConkie's
attempts to explain the reasons why blacks could not hold the priesthood. Then
the church leaders said they didn't know the reason for the policy. My
question is, if there was no reason, why did the ban exist in the first place?
It has caused many pain and has created unnecessary rifts. I was taught that
part of the repentance process involved asking forgiveness and attempting to
right my wrongs. I would love to see the church that taught me those things to
hold itself to the same standard.
Bruce | 3:19 p.m. June 7, 2008
Very interesting thread.
It is apparent that I'm not the only inactive LDS that realizes something is very wrong. Caving in on polygamy, blacks in the priesthood, etc. speaks loud and clear that there has been a falling away from that which was restored.
I submit that if President Young were to be presenting much of his message to the mainstream church today that he would be excommunicated. Something's wrong folks.
Personally, I intend to look toward the A.U.D. or the FLDS and listen prayerfully and objectively to their views, although with a lifetime of mainstream LDS views it will be difficult to not filter everything through that. If the truth exists, may we all be wise enough to hear it.
It is apparent that I'm not the only inactive LDS that realizes something is very wrong. Caving in on polygamy, blacks in the priesthood, etc. speaks loud and clear that there has been a falling away from that which was restored.
I submit that if President Young were to be presenting much of his message to the mainstream church today that he would be excommunicated. Something's wrong folks.
Personally, I intend to look toward the A.U.D. or the FLDS and listen prayerfully and objectively to their views, although with a lifetime of mainstream LDS views it will be difficult to not filter everything through that. If the truth exists, may we all be wise enough to hear it.
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Jeffrey D. Allred, Deseret News
Elder Sheldon F. Child talks about the major progress in the LDS Church since the revelation on blacks and the priesthood was received 30 years ago.
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