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With FLDS families reunited, Texas officials shift investigation to criminal phase
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zxcvbnm | 8:00 p.m. June 6, 2008
Those fine legal lines have already been crossed by the State of Texas.
Just try to keep the pologamy, bigamy , and religious persecution charges away from the US Supreme court.
Already the Jeffs attorneys are trying to suppress evidence gathered in the raid....opening the door to the federal process.
Texas let the cat out of the bag before it could be thrown in the deepest part of the lake, now it will scratch the eyes out of everyone involved in the mess.
Bruce | 8:14 p.m. June 6, 2008
Fine legal line...
Let's see: 1st and 4th ammendment violations
adults illegaly held as minors after offering valid id's and being refused
infants and toddlers torn from loving mothers' arms
etc., etc.
Fine legal line indeed....
Let the lawsuits begin.
Let's see: 1st and 4th ammendment violations
adults illegaly held as minors after offering valid id's and being refused
infants and toddlers torn from loving mothers' arms
etc., etc.
Fine legal line indeed....
Let the lawsuits begin.
Comments continue below
gal50 | 8:58 p.m. June 6, 2008
Texas is doing the right thing by aggressively pursuing crime. It is sending a
strong message that you can't commit crimes and use religion as your excuse
for committing the crimes.
It seems the governor views the FLDS as one big headache by now and would like them to go away. But CPS and the courts have determined that they want to protect the children and need the FLDS to remain within the state in order to do that. The state can't have it both ways. If the FLDS leave the state, it will just create a problem for another state. Texas has the resources to handle this problem and it has the will. Yes, it will cost millions of dollars, but that it the way it goes when you let people get away with crime and they grow to number hundreds and thousands of individuals. It is clear that the federal government will need to step in to handle the problem in Utah and Arizona. There were 20 girls/women who were possible victims of statutory rape. Do the math and you have something like 300 possible victims in Utah and Arizona. We should not be looking the other way.
It seems the governor views the FLDS as one big headache by now and would like them to go away. But CPS and the courts have determined that they want to protect the children and need the FLDS to remain within the state in order to do that. The state can't have it both ways. If the FLDS leave the state, it will just create a problem for another state. Texas has the resources to handle this problem and it has the will. Yes, it will cost millions of dollars, but that it the way it goes when you let people get away with crime and they grow to number hundreds and thousands of individuals. It is clear that the federal government will need to step in to handle the problem in Utah and Arizona. There were 20 girls/women who were possible victims of statutory rape. Do the math and you have something like 300 possible victims in Utah and Arizona. We should not be looking the other way.
Phil | 9:02 p.m. June 6, 2008
Evidence obtained in this matter have never been allowed by case law to be
admissible evidence. The Supreme Court would make the final ruling on this, and
I doubt this prudence would change. Now is there any evidence of criminal
activity? Yea right, another lie for the media to buy into.
REAL | 9:05 p.m. June 6, 2008
Re: zxcvbum, Bruce,............Uh, you both seem to forget, this ain't
Utah! There will be no credible lawsuits, not many Texas residents support any
outcry from the FLDS, and none will stand for any of their tax dollars to fund
this mess that they simply brought on themselves. The reason that 80% of the
families have not returned to the abuse ranch is that they are trying to
distance themselves from the wrongdoers, when criminal charges are filed against
the perverts. I personally have wrote to Greg Abbott, (att. gen.) and others
insisting that we make every effort to rid our state of these criminals.
According to his statements, he seems to be listening to the people. Go get em
Greg!!!!!!!
Interloper | 9:22 p.m. June 6, 2008
The FLDS has already planned its next locations. It has been buying up property
at a fast clip in a remote part of Colorado for the last six months. Big
dormitory style buildings are being erected, as well as tall fences. I think
that signals that Western states will be subjected to the problems of the FLDS
for decades unless a strong response occurs in Texas.
Emma from Illinois | 9:33 p.m. June 6, 2008
Freedom has been lost on the part of these people. Just as religion should not
be used to abuse children, neither should the State of Texas use it's power
to abuse women , and children. From watching the news, internet on this story,
it was obvious that these people have been made to look like a freakshow,
according to their dress, and hairstyles, I agree. These children are going to
carry with them the nightmares of what happened to them, and their parents,
probably for the rest of their lives. And, "legal fine lines", for
goodness sake, not much abuse has been found at the ranch. These poor people
have been through a very hard, cruel, fight. To even know that ADULT women, who
did not commit any crimes, were held against their will is terrible. I do not
believe that this was even an effort to protect children, but, to tear apart
this religious community. Which now, they have done, these people are terrified
to even return to their own homes. While there is no excuse for the 4 or 1 girl
that was abused, there is absolutly no excuse to pick on the innocent.
zxcvbnm | 9:35 p.m. June 6, 2008
Re Real. Lets get a thing or two straight. I am one of those Texas residents. So are the Texas residents from east Texas that lobbied against Hildebrands law that changed the age of consent.
Ole Harvey snuck the bill thre hidden in a CPS funding bill. Seems those East Texas law and order boys didn't like the "no cousin marrying" provisions.
Your take on the attitude of Texas residents is far from what I see. Many Texasns that I have talked to think we blew it and don't want to pay for this mess.
The most important Texans have already spoken.........3 appeals court judges and 9 supreme court judges have said that this state broke the law.
Lets see the rally round the flag law and order Texans swallow the US constitution pill next.
BTW....I wrote Abbott as well....suggested that he follow the law and quit persecuting an organized religion and persue charges against CPS, Swinton, the Jessop twins, and other gossip mongers.
Tim | 9:35 p.m. June 6, 2008
Rick Perry accepts full responsibility... boy oh boy, now there's some
really important news. Will he undo the damage done to the children? Will he
pay off all the lawsuits that are about to be unleashed? Will he resign?
For any politicians out there - could there be a more vacuous statement than "I accept full responsibility?" I hear it, and the only image that comes to mind is a jellyfish.
For any politicians out there - could there be a more vacuous statement than "I accept full responsibility?" I hear it, and the only image that comes to mind is a jellyfish.
Red | 9:37 p.m. June 6, 2008
"If [DNA test] results are going to be used as part of a criminal
investigation, a court will have to approve that request."
Seriously.
Does anyone think Frau Walther would hesitate for a New York second?
Seriously.
Does anyone think Frau Walther would hesitate for a New York second?
Red | 9:40 p.m. June 6, 2008
gal50 8:58: "Texas is doing the right thing by aggressively pursuing
crime."
Agreed. That's their job.
It would be nice, tho, if Texas would aggressively pursue crime where there is evidence it exists.
Keeping all these families on open-ended parole until their caseworkers can "find" (dare one say "manufacture?") non-compliance issues and permanently take the kids would seem, at charitable best, a distraction from the real job.
Agreed. That's their job.
It would be nice, tho, if Texas would aggressively pursue crime where there is evidence it exists.
Keeping all these families on open-ended parole until their caseworkers can "find" (dare one say "manufacture?") non-compliance issues and permanently take the kids would seem, at charitable best, a distraction from the real job.
zxcvbnm | 9:52 p.m. June 6, 2008
A funny thing happened with the great Texas cult hunt.
20/20 tonight broadcast a report on the Yahweh group near Abeline. I wonder when it was filmed and if Texas is willing to go after another "Compounded Cult"
I haven't seen any tanks on the streets lately but I hear Texas is getting good at cammoflage.....
Freedom Mann | 10:28 p.m. June 6, 2008
We now have (what is effectively) open-ended parole against the FLDS; the state
is dictating these terms and will not relinquish them unless there is a
fight.
The FLDS was smart enough to have given in on this to quickly get the children back. And then there will be their suit to end this open-ended parole nonsense, an open-ended parole that's in place when they've been accused of, let alone convicted of NOTHING.
We have politicians who sway in the slightest breeze. Typical.
Indeed, it was their initial "swaying" in changing the laws of marriage and consent that revealed precisely what they are and to WHOM.
Now that the behaviour of government officials has been put under the microscope by people that really DO believe in the LAWS of this country, the politicians are now pointedly straddling the fence, purely with a "wait and see attitude" rather than as ELECTED CUSTODIANS OF THE LAW, to see where the wind is going to take them next.
And yet, there are people that want them to hop back on the side of the fence where they were when this whole mess started. FANTASTIC!
The FLDS was smart enough to have given in on this to quickly get the children back. And then there will be their suit to end this open-ended parole nonsense, an open-ended parole that's in place when they've been accused of, let alone convicted of NOTHING.
We have politicians who sway in the slightest breeze. Typical.
Indeed, it was their initial "swaying" in changing the laws of marriage and consent that revealed precisely what they are and to WHOM.
Now that the behaviour of government officials has been put under the microscope by people that really DO believe in the LAWS of this country, the politicians are now pointedly straddling the fence, purely with a "wait and see attitude" rather than as ELECTED CUSTODIANS OF THE LAW, to see where the wind is going to take them next.
And yet, there are people that want them to hop back on the side of the fence where they were when this whole mess started. FANTASTIC!
Freedom Mann | 10:32 p.m. June 6, 2008
And I'll tell you good readers another thing.
The day is not so far off when some militias are going to come along and do something about stuff like this.
During The Great Depression, in the winter of 1932-3, it DID happen and if it had spread to urban areas, that would have been the end of this nation as we know it.
The day is not so far off when some militias are going to come along and do something about stuff like this.
During The Great Depression, in the winter of 1932-3, it DID happen and if it had spread to urban areas, that would have been the end of this nation as we know it.
Just wondering.... | 10:43 p.m. June 6, 2008
If these people aren't doing anything wrong, where the heck is Merrill
Jessop? Oh yeah, he's hiding like a scared rabbit.
The comments made from the FLDS men here have gone from humorous to old. Religion doesn't grant anyone a free pass to sexually assault 12-year-old girls.
It's sad that Willie Jessop is sent out there like a puppet to lie through his teeth, claiming to have no knowledge of underage marriages, and then later reading a statement that the church will no longer conduct such marriages. What's even sadder, is that he thinks people are actually dumb enough to believe him.
The comments made from the FLDS men here have gone from humorous to old. Religion doesn't grant anyone a free pass to sexually assault 12-year-old girls.
It's sad that Willie Jessop is sent out there like a puppet to lie through his teeth, claiming to have no knowledge of underage marriages, and then later reading a statement that the church will no longer conduct such marriages. What's even sadder, is that he thinks people are actually dumb enough to believe him.
John Lambert | 10:50 p.m. June 6, 2008
Actually Texas has made arrests of some of the leaders in the House of Yahweh
and is trying to charge them with violation of polygamy laws. However they have
not seen it necesary to remove the children in that case.
u1pupulehaole | 12:05 a.m. June 7, 2008
it's about time the kids went home, and the TX Rangers start concentrating
on the men who are committing the crime. An APC to arrest women and children,
c'mon TX, you can do better than that...whoa, wait, maybe the ASU women
softball team can do the same thing that they did to the Aggies........spanked
them! oh maybe Tx CPS were expecting 14yr old married women to come out with a
full assault with water guns??????
utah resident | 12:13 a.m. June 7, 2008
zxcbnm - I appreciate your comments. I agree with you and feel bad for Texas
taxpayers who must clean up this mess. The state took an industrious community
and forced every woman and child onto state welfare.
These poor people still had scars from the '53 raid. If 50 years couldn't heal those scars, how long will it take to heal the ones from this raid?
These poor people still had scars from the '53 raid. If 50 years couldn't heal those scars, how long will it take to heal the ones from this raid?
Kim | 1:15 a.m. June 7, 2008
The following quote is from the Koran: "Marry women of your choice, two, or
three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with
them), then only one." [Al-Qur'an 4:3].
Furthermore, the Koran states that a girl's recommended age for marriage is when she reaches puberty. Muhammad consummated his marriage with a nine year old child. Child brides remain a part of the Islamic culture.
So, WHY isn't every local police force in the US raiding every Islamic mosque and raiding the homes and removing the children of every Muslim family?
Of course not! Why would we attack the religion of "peace" who are on a mission from Allah to kill every one of us infidels? No, instead we attack a totally pacifistic group of FLDS people who will probably and stupidly find it in their hearts to forgive the CPS morons who ripped their babies from their breasts.
What has happened to our great country?
Furthermore, the Koran states that a girl's recommended age for marriage is when she reaches puberty. Muhammad consummated his marriage with a nine year old child. Child brides remain a part of the Islamic culture.
So, WHY isn't every local police force in the US raiding every Islamic mosque and raiding the homes and removing the children of every Muslim family?
Of course not! Why would we attack the religion of "peace" who are on a mission from Allah to kill every one of us infidels? No, instead we attack a totally pacifistic group of FLDS people who will probably and stupidly find it in their hearts to forgive the CPS morons who ripped their babies from their breasts.
What has happened to our great country?
from New England | 6:43 a.m. June 7, 2008
to Freedom Mann:
I do agree with you that - "the politicians are now pointedly straddling the fence, purely with a "wait and see attitude" rather than as ELECTED CUSTODIANS OF THE LAW,"
That is truly disappointing, but I don't think that this is the way things happened :
"The FLDS was smart enough to have given in on this to quickly get the children back."
The ONLY reason they got the children back is that the supreme court ruled that the kids shouldn't have been taken in the first place. As part of the terms to get them back they did have to agree to CPS parole conditions, but my point is that they didn't get them back merely by "giving in to anything." The supreme court ruled first, and THEN they (through their lawyers) signed the parole orders by Judge Walther.
Also, it seems to me, though I might be wrong, that the FLDS are not the kind of people given to suing everyone in sight, just because they have been wronged. I suspect that they'd rather just be left alone and not be persecuted for their religion.
I do agree with you that - "the politicians are now pointedly straddling the fence, purely with a "wait and see attitude" rather than as ELECTED CUSTODIANS OF THE LAW,"
That is truly disappointing, but I don't think that this is the way things happened :
"The FLDS was smart enough to have given in on this to quickly get the children back."
The ONLY reason they got the children back is that the supreme court ruled that the kids shouldn't have been taken in the first place. As part of the terms to get them back they did have to agree to CPS parole conditions, but my point is that they didn't get them back merely by "giving in to anything." The supreme court ruled first, and THEN they (through their lawyers) signed the parole orders by Judge Walther.
Also, it seems to me, though I might be wrong, that the FLDS are not the kind of people given to suing everyone in sight, just because they have been wronged. I suspect that they'd rather just be left alone and not be persecuted for their religion.
Abby | 10:44 a.m. June 7, 2008
Kim asks "WHY isn't every local police force in the US raiding every
Islamic mosque and raiding the homes and removing the children of every Muslim
family?"
It is because in the United States we are free to practice the religion of our choice, as long as we don't break the laws of the land. Our country was founded on these principles, and we continue to honor them. Religious preference can not and SHOULD not be used as grounds for prosecution.
In this country Muslims are not free to practice polygamy, and most of them don't. Their religion allows it, but does not require it. They are free to worship Allah, and most of them do. Your implication that they are on a mission "to kill every one of us infidels" is both harmful and grossly inaccurate. To advocate persecution of Muslims is just as repugnant as the blatant persection of the FLDS in Texas.
It is because in the United States we are free to practice the religion of our choice, as long as we don't break the laws of the land. Our country was founded on these principles, and we continue to honor them. Religious preference can not and SHOULD not be used as grounds for prosecution.
In this country Muslims are not free to practice polygamy, and most of them don't. Their religion allows it, but does not require it. They are free to worship Allah, and most of them do. Your implication that they are on a mission "to kill every one of us infidels" is both harmful and grossly inaccurate. To advocate persecution of Muslims is just as repugnant as the blatant persection of the FLDS in Texas.
Jan in TX | 11:18 a.m. June 7, 2008
==>"CPS is also continuing to investigate, even though the children are
no longer in state custody.
==>"We'll continue to conduct interviews and gather information to determine if abuse or neglect has occurred," spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said. "If there is no abuse, we'll close the case."
Wow - that is not the tune CPS was singing in April!!! The stories from state officials were they had clear evidence - in plain view!
==>"We'll continue to conduct interviews and gather information to determine if abuse or neglect has occurred," spokeswoman Marleigh Meisner said. "If there is no abuse, we'll close the case."
Wow - that is not the tune CPS was singing in April!!! The stories from state officials were they had clear evidence - in plain view!
Celia | 1:07 p.m. June 7, 2008
The dummies in Texas are just going to keep on running this witch hunt until
they find a witch. They started out with the prior forgone conclusion of abuse,
and now they are going to keep on picking away until they find something to
point at and say "see we told ya".
If legitimate evidence of abuse cannot be found, it will likely be fabricated.
This whole fiasco is religious persecution by narrow minded Texas bigots.
If legitimate evidence of abuse cannot be found, it will likely be fabricated.
This whole fiasco is religious persecution by narrow minded Texas bigots.
Kim | 2:24 p.m. June 7, 2008
Abby said: "In this country Muslims are not free to practice polygamy, and
MOST of them don't."
OK, most Muslims don't but SOME do,just like SOME Muslims in the USA marry underage girls. Typically these are Muslims who parade around with their faces covered and are not seen by American doctors so no authorities would ever know their age.
SOUNDS LIKE THE FLDS! Not all the families on the ranch were polygamist and very few underage
"married" girls were discovered.
Since there are many more Muslims in the US than there are FLDS I wonder which group really has the higher number of polygamist or underage marriages?
Finally,Abby, since we agree that both FLDS and Islam both condone and practice polygamy and underage marriage to some degree, than it stands to reason that the POLICE SHOULD BE RAIDING THE MOSQUES and MUSLIM communities looking for child abuse just like they did the YFZ Ranch.
Wouldn't that that be "Equal Justice for All?"
The Koran clearly states: "Kill all infidels" so one can only assume that practicing Muslims want to kill all non-muslims. My Bible certainly does not instruct me to murder innocents...I'll go with that.
OK, most Muslims don't but SOME do,just like SOME Muslims in the USA marry underage girls. Typically these are Muslims who parade around with their faces covered and are not seen by American doctors so no authorities would ever know their age.
SOUNDS LIKE THE FLDS! Not all the families on the ranch were polygamist and very few underage
"married" girls were discovered.
Since there are many more Muslims in the US than there are FLDS I wonder which group really has the higher number of polygamist or underage marriages?
Finally,Abby, since we agree that both FLDS and Islam both condone and practice polygamy and underage marriage to some degree, than it stands to reason that the POLICE SHOULD BE RAIDING THE MOSQUES and MUSLIM communities looking for child abuse just like they did the YFZ Ranch.
Wouldn't that that be "Equal Justice for All?"
The Koran clearly states: "Kill all infidels" so one can only assume that practicing Muslims want to kill all non-muslims. My Bible certainly does not instruct me to murder innocents...I'll go with that.
Daniel | 5:30 p.m. June 7, 2008
Abby | 10:44 a.m. June 7, 2008
"In this country Muslims are not free to practice polygamy"
1. If the marriages took place in a foreign country where polygamy is legal, they must be respected in all states.
2. Within US, plural marriage as practiced by FLDS is not illegal. Texas's law which attempts to regulate informal relationships is unconstitutional and will never be enforced.
"most of them don't."
Most Mormons don't either. So what? Fundamentalist Muslims practice polygamy in about the same proportions as the FLDS do.
"Their religion allows it, but does not require it."
FLDS religion does not require it either, only encourages it. Christians are encouraged to give up all worldly possessions and devote themselves to spreading the word of God. Some do, some don't. Just like FLDS.
"Your implication that they are on a mission "to kill every one of us infidels" is both harmful and grossly inaccurate."
No more inaccurate than you're saying that the mission of FLDS is to practice polygamy. Some Muslims are on a mission to kill every infidel. Some are not.
"In this country Muslims are not free to practice polygamy"
1. If the marriages took place in a foreign country where polygamy is legal, they must be respected in all states.
2. Within US, plural marriage as practiced by FLDS is not illegal. Texas's law which attempts to regulate informal relationships is unconstitutional and will never be enforced.
"most of them don't."
Most Mormons don't either. So what? Fundamentalist Muslims practice polygamy in about the same proportions as the FLDS do.
"Their religion allows it, but does not require it."
FLDS religion does not require it either, only encourages it. Christians are encouraged to give up all worldly possessions and devote themselves to spreading the word of God. Some do, some don't. Just like FLDS.
"Your implication that they are on a mission "to kill every one of us infidels" is both harmful and grossly inaccurate."
No more inaccurate than you're saying that the mission of FLDS is to practice polygamy. Some Muslims are on a mission to kill every infidel. Some are not.
Logos | 10:16 p.m. June 7, 2008
Criminal charges need to ensue in order to reign in those who have discarded
wisdom, honesty and human decency.
Anonymous | 1:00 p.m. June 11, 2008
At least Texas had the guts to attempt to protect these children. Other states
have let it go for so long that people think it is normal. CPS is in this to
protect children. They don't want more children in the system, but you just
can't turn your back on abuse. All evidence from the raids will stand in
the criminal cases. i wonder what all of you pro-FLDSers will say when charges
are issued. Will you still defend this cult?
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Preventing child sexual abuse is one thing, but when you send in caseworkers who disapprove of every aspect of these people's lives, down to hair style and dresses, you can bet those case workers will not just be looking for abuse, they will be attempting to find reasons and ways to indoctrinate the children into their beliefs own--some of which may not be any healthier than the FLDS. Proctor mom and the Court Appointed Special Advocate down in Texas being good examples.