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Much has changed for LDS blacks since '78
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Churches and slavery | 2:12 a.m. June 8, 2008
The history of the white church in relation to blacks is, well, sin-filled. At
one time, African Americans were not even considered to have souls.
At the time, Christianity was used as a weapon, pure and simple. While some people may have legitimately wanted to evangelize the "heathens," for the most part, Christianity was used as a means of control - used to strip away any trace of the native religion from animism to Islamblack folks were forced to unlearn this aspect of their culture.
The slave that was a good slave was promised salvation after death, but not in this world. The spirtual "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" was a pleading of the slaves to have their lives taken so they could go to heaven to break the bonds of slavery.
The LDS Church was abolitionist, and allowed membership, but with the negative penalties tied to the slave codes, combined with the oppression of of the mormons, it was a difficult.
It is possible that the Lord's plans were carried out in His timeframe and what a glorious day it is, with temples in Africa, and all men having the blessing of the priesthood.
Let's Judge Today for Today.
At the time, Christianity was used as a weapon, pure and simple. While some people may have legitimately wanted to evangelize the "heathens," for the most part, Christianity was used as a means of control - used to strip away any trace of the native religion from animism to Islamblack folks were forced to unlearn this aspect of their culture.
The slave that was a good slave was promised salvation after death, but not in this world. The spirtual "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" was a pleading of the slaves to have their lives taken so they could go to heaven to break the bonds of slavery.
The LDS Church was abolitionist, and allowed membership, but with the negative penalties tied to the slave codes, combined with the oppression of of the mormons, it was a difficult.
It is possible that the Lord's plans were carried out in His timeframe and what a glorious day it is, with temples in Africa, and all men having the blessing of the priesthood.
Let's Judge Today for Today.
re:Inhale | 2:20 a.m. June 8, 2008
It's possible that members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the
Twelve were products of the times in which they were raised, and their hearts
were made hard as to this issue of extending full preisthood keys to all worthy
male members, whis is sad, but true.
I too, am grateful for the Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, who prayed diligently for this revealation.
If anything, it strengthens my testimony, in that the quorum of the twelve do not rubberstamp the desires of the President of the curch, rather they work together, until all members recieve the whiperings of the spirit.
I too, am grateful for the Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, who prayed diligently for this revealation.
If anything, it strengthens my testimony, in that the quorum of the twelve do not rubberstamp the desires of the President of the curch, rather they work together, until all members recieve the whiperings of the spirit.
Comments continue below
Harry | 4:45 a.m. June 8, 2008
Why talk about "race" when:
biologically speaking "race" doesn't exist.
what you're really talking about is skin color.
If you replaced your word race with skin color, it makes the whole thing seem as silly as it really is.
biologically speaking "race" doesn't exist.
what you're really talking about is skin color.
If you replaced your word race with skin color, it makes the whole thing seem as silly as it really is.
Les (Sydney Australia) | 5:30 a.m. June 8, 2008
I have a son who is currently serving a mission in Ghana. What a wonderful and
life changing experience it has been for him and our family. These wonderful
people are truly God's children and are eager to be numbered in the Church.
They are humble and grateful people and I thank them with all my heart for their
love and hosptiatlity they have given my son. I know that my son has made
eternal friends. He will never forget the time he is spending serving God's
children in Ghana. They have left a mark on my sons heart and I thanks them for
that. He left a boy and now he is a man and it's due to many receptive
people in Ghana willing to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He has had many
African companions from Kenya, South Africa and Ghana. They are all great young
men and will lead the Church in Africa as the gospel stretches across this vast
continent. God bless them all.
My Take | 5:49 a.m. June 8, 2008
Thurl Baley once gave a fireside where he talked about his conversion and
dealing with the issue of blacks in the Church. He personally felt that blacks
were denied the priesthood not because the Lord saw them as less than equal but
because the Church (members) was not yet ready to accept the blacks.
I think there is a lot of truth to what he says. Maybe the Lord allowed the policy simply because he knew that we as a Church needed to grow to where we could abide a higher law of true racial equality.
In my opinion, we still have a ways to go before we are truly living a higher standard of equality. I served my mission in Mexico and from time to time, the saints would wonder why the First Presidency and Coucil of 12 didn't include a person from Latin America.
If the Church is ever to truly become a World-wide Church, it needs to be reflected in its top leadership. I believe the Lord is preparing future apostles from Latin America, Asia, Africa. We now have Europe (Ukdorff). It will happen when we are prepared as a Church to live the "higher" law.
I think there is a lot of truth to what he says. Maybe the Lord allowed the policy simply because he knew that we as a Church needed to grow to where we could abide a higher law of true racial equality.
In my opinion, we still have a ways to go before we are truly living a higher standard of equality. I served my mission in Mexico and from time to time, the saints would wonder why the First Presidency and Coucil of 12 didn't include a person from Latin America.
If the Church is ever to truly become a World-wide Church, it needs to be reflected in its top leadership. I believe the Lord is preparing future apostles from Latin America, Asia, Africa. We now have Europe (Ukdorff). It will happen when we are prepared as a Church to live the "higher" law.
FBEAR | 6:14 a.m. June 8, 2008
Why all the continuing bickering, even here in the form of "he said she
said"? What should have been, has become a fait accompli. I grew up in the
South and somehow always knew the day would come. So did my parents, who
embraced the idea. Everyone has an "opinion," even church
authorities, who sometimes say things the Lord would prefee they didn't,
but they have their agency, and HE has his way of setting them straight. No
peophet ever announced this restriction as doctrine. Even the wordsw of Brigham
Young are mere speculartion, not prophecy. The only official word ever given is
the 1978 revelation. Now it is up to all Latter-day Saints to follow the counsel
of Pres. Hinckley and implement it in their own personal lives and move on to
building the kingdom and accepting all our brothers and sisters as what they
are: the same children of God we profess to be. Put awat the Journal of
Discourses and Mormon Doctrine and gossip and hearsay and FOR A CHANGE, LISTEN
TO AND FOLLOW THE LORD'S ANOINTED PROPHETS.
ph | 7:02 a.m. June 8, 2008
Great article. We all need to extend ourselves beyond our comfort level to get
to know people not like ourselves, whether this difference manifests itself
racially, socially, economically or religiously. Only when we open up can we
begin to whittle down our own societal fears and predjudices and begin to truly
love others in a Christlike way. In Utah or anywhere else where one religion is
predominant people tend to be very insular, making it difficult for others
outside of the group. Let's open up our hearts!
JJN | 8:17 a.m. June 8, 2008
I won't pretend to know the reasons for the priesthood ban or for the
timing of the lifting of that ban, however I think it is unfair to expect a
Church that purports to be led by God to follow the standards of what society
generally judges to be correct. In the book of Isaiah the Lord says that his
ways are not our ways, which means that what he commands may often be different
from the course we think is correct. During His life, Jesus Christ refused to
teach people who were not of the house of Isreal. This was a distinction that
was racial, since the house of Israel referred to descendants of Israel (Jacob).
After Christ's death Peter received a revelation that the gospel could be
preached to all people (the ban was lifted). Just as I don't know all the
reasons for the priesthood ban and the timing of the lifting of that ban, I also
don't understand all the reasons for Christ's
'non-Isrealite' ban and the timing of the lifting of that ban.
However, if we are to apply the same societal standard to the Savior, we must
ask - was Christ a racist?
Dixie Dan | 8:48 a.m. June 8, 2008
From 1847 to the present, how many blacks have been voted into any public office
in Utah? How many blacks are there in the Tabernacle Choir? How many blacks
have become General Authorities? Why was Utah the last state to honor Martin
Luther King Day?
Why were apostles in the early LDS Church slave holders in Utah? Did the state of Utah ever prosecute the person responsible for hanging of a black man in Price by the KKK?
No, Utah still hides behide their racist past despite their good intentions.
Why were apostles in the early LDS Church slave holders in Utah? Did the state of Utah ever prosecute the person responsible for hanging of a black man in Price by the KKK?
No, Utah still hides behide their racist past despite their good intentions.
Half Way There | 9:38 a.m. June 8, 2008
As a member of the Church, I praise the decision to overturn this policy. I know
there were leaders who held a degree of prejudice toward blacks and some who did
not. But to change and turn away from a mistake is only half of the process.
What has continued to be a thorn in the side of the Church is it's
inability to do the rest - namely to acknowledge and apologize for being in
error regarding this issue. It appears that a Church based on the concept of
revelation is almost prevented from doing so for fear of the "slippery
slope" of "what else was wrong" that might ignite.
Whatever the reasons for this inability, the black issue (similar to polygamy) will always be a hurdle until the Church is able to complete both parts of the process. Imagine if you were wronged by a friend and that friend agreed to stop doing what was offensive or wrong but refused to explain or apologize - in essence still affirming the original wrong. It could not help but continue to be painful or resentful. It is ok for our Church to "repent" in the same way it teaches.
Whatever the reasons for this inability, the black issue (similar to polygamy) will always be a hurdle until the Church is able to complete both parts of the process. Imagine if you were wronged by a friend and that friend agreed to stop doing what was offensive or wrong but refused to explain or apologize - in essence still affirming the original wrong. It could not help but continue to be painful or resentful. It is ok for our Church to "repent" in the same way it teaches.
Reality | 9:56 a.m. June 8, 2008
�Kimball's announcement [reversing the LDS anti-Black
priesthood ban] coincided with events which were adversely affecting the Mormon
Church.
�For a period of time immediately prior to Kimball's declaration, several major universities, had announced that until such time as the Mormon Church reversed its policy of racial discrimination, they would no longer take part in athletic events in which BYU participated.
�More importantly though, approximately two weeks prior to Kimball's surprising declaration, President Jimmy Carter had phoned Kimball and informed him that the IRS was seriously considering removing the Mormon Church's tax exempt status unless changes were made in their policy of discrimination.� Mormon's Changing Doctrine, pg 124.
�For a period of time immediately prior to Kimball's declaration, several major universities, had announced that until such time as the Mormon Church reversed its policy of racial discrimination, they would no longer take part in athletic events in which BYU participated.
�More importantly though, approximately two weeks prior to Kimball's surprising declaration, President Jimmy Carter had phoned Kimball and informed him that the IRS was seriously considering removing the Mormon Church's tax exempt status unless changes were made in their policy of discrimination.� Mormon's Changing Doctrine, pg 124.
Doubting Thomas | 10:25 a.m. June 8, 2008
I see so many explanations for the policy of black men being denied the
priesthood. Some say that God did not permit it, some say the men of the church
were not ready, whatever that means. But across all of these explanations, I do
not see anyone address one simple question:
Is the church true? If it is, then those statements about black people were true. If it isn't, then those statements were the failings of men trying to lead others toward God.
I struggle with this idea as it relates to more than the LDS church. Were the Catholic policies toward Jews during the holocaust also divine?
So far, the only answer I can reach is that the church is made by men, and incorporates their failings. A true church would have had true revelations, before they were socially acceptable or popular. I cannot reconcile divine revelation that supports racism with a kind and loving God.
30 years after the revelation, and this is my dilemma.
Is the church true? If it is, then those statements about black people were true. If it isn't, then those statements were the failings of men trying to lead others toward God.
I struggle with this idea as it relates to more than the LDS church. Were the Catholic policies toward Jews during the holocaust also divine?
So far, the only answer I can reach is that the church is made by men, and incorporates their failings. A true church would have had true revelations, before they were socially acceptable or popular. I cannot reconcile divine revelation that supports racism with a kind and loving God.
30 years after the revelation, and this is my dilemma.
Observer | 10:27 a.m. June 8, 2008
Sometimes people, organizations, and even religions need to be dragged kicking
and screaming into doing what's right. That was the case with the LDS
church granting the priesthood to black people. It wasn't a revelation, it
was forced on the LDS church because of social and economic pressures at the
time. Just as ending polygamy wasn't a revelation, but was necessary to
gain statehood. However, regardless of the reasons, the LDS church did what was
right and deserves credit, and those members that embrace it deserve credit as
well.
I'm Happy That God Relented | 11:03 a.m. June 8, 2008
It's a wonderful thing that the LDS God has finally relented and lived
according to His own principles, which is that He loved all of His children
indiscriminately, and unconditionally.
However, it took God a long time to come to this realization, and one does wonder what He was thinking in having His leaders withheld the priesthood, and why He was so judgemental to His "colored" children, who we've been taught as the sons of Cain.
Still, I'm very Happy that in 1978, He learned the mistakes of His ways and changed His policies and loved all the blacks no matter what.
I think it's a wonderful thing that we commemorate this event, after all, it's true when God said that He loved all His children.
However, it took God a long time to come to this realization, and one does wonder what He was thinking in having His leaders withheld the priesthood, and why He was so judgemental to His "colored" children, who we've been taught as the sons of Cain.
Still, I'm very Happy that in 1978, He learned the mistakes of His ways and changed His policies and loved all the blacks no matter what.
I think it's a wonderful thing that we commemorate this event, after all, it's true when God said that He loved all His children.
JediMormon | 11:05 a.m. June 8, 2008
There are those who don't really care how the LDS church was treating the
blacks. What they care about is having something with which to find fault with
the church. No matter what amount of good the church does, these folks will
always come up with a "yes, but..." From these folks, you will never
hear anything good about the church.
Some folks just have too much time on their hands.
Some folks just have too much time on their hands.
RE:Reality | 12:14 p.m. June 8, 2008
Thanks for quoting your source. It adds crediblity.
I googled and could not find the book, so PLEASE give us another source of your outrageous claims.
Dixie Dan: Utah was Slave territory at first. Of course there is going to be slavery. Your hate goes deeper than the church to include the whole state. Utah was last the designate MLK day (AZ '93, NH '99).
However, Utah has celebrated Human Rights Day since 1986, when the federal government decided to celebrate a King holiday. Some lawmakers argued that the state had not recognized individuals by name in the past. They argued that the Human Rights Day designator was more broad-reaching and fair. Their hearts were in the right place, but they wanted to sweep further than the King holiday.
I doubt the church realeases statisitics on how many African Americans are in the choir (that would be recist), but I seem to see more color everytime I watch.
Although there are many choirs in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, only one is directed by Gladys Knight: the Saints Unified Voices. It�s an LDS choir unlike any you�ve ever heard.
Open your minds.
I googled and could not find the book, so PLEASE give us another source of your outrageous claims.
Dixie Dan: Utah was Slave territory at first. Of course there is going to be slavery. Your hate goes deeper than the church to include the whole state. Utah was last the designate MLK day (AZ '93, NH '99).
However, Utah has celebrated Human Rights Day since 1986, when the federal government decided to celebrate a King holiday. Some lawmakers argued that the state had not recognized individuals by name in the past. They argued that the Human Rights Day designator was more broad-reaching and fair. Their hearts were in the right place, but they wanted to sweep further than the King holiday.
I doubt the church realeases statisitics on how many African Americans are in the choir (that would be recist), but I seem to see more color everytime I watch.
Although there are many choirs in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, only one is directed by Gladys Knight: the Saints Unified Voices. It�s an LDS choir unlike any you�ve ever heard.
Open your minds.
Anonymous | 12:41 p.m. June 8, 2008
I wonder what Black Saints will be thinking when the LDS makes clear how they
feel about a Black candidate for US President?
Never Satisfied | 12:52 p.m. June 8, 2008
�Until I see a "black" member of the twelve,
Mormon prejudice and racist views will still be an active part of their beliefs.
I don't expect that to happen for a long, long
time.�
Carl, No matter what the Church does there is no satisfying you. Why just focus on Mormons? What about the Catholics, they have never had a black Pope, do you consider them racist as well?
Carl, No matter what the Church does there is no satisfying you. Why just focus on Mormons? What about the Catholics, they have never had a black Pope, do you consider them racist as well?
Ana | 1:43 p.m. June 8, 2008
I'm surprised there's no mention of the Blacks in the Scriptures
project that bro. Gray did with Marvin Perkins. Is the Deseret News shying away
from those truths? It gives very clear answers and is the greatest thing
I've seen on the matter since the 1978 revelation. Every member needs to
see it, over and over again.
Perfection | 1:42 p.m. June 8, 2008
All of these anti-Mormon people will never be satisfied with anything good the
Church does. They will always find the negative, look to the bad, and focus on
the faults. What they don't realize is that, just because we preach a
perfect gospel and perfect doctrine, we as individuals are far from perfect.
The Church is a perfect church, the teachings and doctrines and policies,
comprised of flawed individuals. Don't project an individual's
opinion on the Church as a whole. That's as ignorant as saying all whites
are racist because of the KKK, all African-Americans are anti-American because
of Jeremiah Wright, etc. Dive into the doctrines, read our scriptures, before
you make fools of yourselves. JOHN 3:16--For God so loved the world that he
gave His only Begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him should not perish,
but have everlasting life. No exceptions. 3 NEPHI 9:17--And as many as have
received me, to them have I given to become the sons of God; and even so will I
to as many as shall believe on my name... Again, no exceptions. This is what
we believe, like it or not.
Justine | 2:57 p.m. June 8, 2008
Sad sad little people. You are little knee bitters and no racisms does not occur
in the church, it is by far the most diverse and open church which I know of!
You are all sad and are just trying to tear down the last domain of truth and
perfection in this world. It is truth and I am sad that so so so many cannot see
beyong their own ignorance to the greatness of the restored gospel! If you
can't say anything nice please don't post in this paper, there are
many other forums for you as this is the LDS newspaper!
BigT | 4:30 p.m. June 8, 2008
Be Careful fellow friends and relatives. Don't fall into the pit over
trivial inbalances. THe lord tells us in scripture to forgive all of their
transgretions and leave the rest to the great I am.
We learn all things precept on precept line upon line. I remember growing up when it was Bad to be a Mormon. NOT anymore. Thanks to sturdy people like all of you. Through all of time we learn and grow.
Tip for the day : When you talk negative about others it only shows those watching you really don't want them to be successful.
We learn all things precept on precept line upon line. I remember growing up when it was Bad to be a Mormon. NOT anymore. Thanks to sturdy people like all of you. Through all of time we learn and grow.
Tip for the day : When you talk negative about others it only shows those watching you really don't want them to be successful.
Wilkenson 1951 | 5:53 p.m. June 8, 2008
Sorry, but the only source I can get on the quote is the multiple anti-LDS
websites that proliferate the internet.
All of you quoting thes sources should understand that they are academic, or necessarilly truthful.
My advice, If you need proof, investigate the motives of those you follow, and for sure, ask for a verifiable citation.
I remember growing up in the South, and some of the quotes coming from the racists and KKK were "quoted", but neither made sense, and were not true.
All of you quoting thes sources should understand that they are academic, or necessarilly truthful.
My advice, If you need proof, investigate the motives of those you follow, and for sure, ask for a verifiable citation.
I remember growing up in the South, and some of the quotes coming from the racists and KKK were "quoted", but neither made sense, and were not true.
Church member for life | 8:38 p.m. June 8, 2008
Remember in Sunday Schools being taught about our life in the pre-existence? We
were taught that two great Gods presented plans before the formation of this
world and one plan was accepted, the other refused. It lead to that great
battle in heaven. We were told we were the valiant ones who stood at the side of
our Savior in the great battle. We were told a third of the hosts of heaven
were cast out with Lucifer and we played a role in that. Does this teaching
ring a bell with anyone? We were taught that there was also another group
representing the other third of the hosts of heaven that sympathized with the
plan of Lucifer to save all souls, but didn't go so far as to fight about
it. Remember that too? We were taught that they were our brothers and sisters
but were not as valiant in this great battle, hence God placed a special charge
on them.
All I am saying is I too believe in modern revelation, but when revelation goes against the eternal laws of God, it is not from God.....Amen
All I am saying is I too believe in modern revelation, but when revelation goes against the eternal laws of God, it is not from God.....Amen
Naha Yazzie | 8:39 p.m. June 8, 2008
Didn't Europeans once believe the world was flat? Was it light and
knowledge that helped changed that? I suppose many held onto the belief even
after 1492. Some day more will see and accept the truth of the 1978 revelation.
Anonymous | 10:12 p.m. June 8, 2008
Revelation, no..social justice yes. I think we will all be suprised when we meet
our maker and see her in all her glory.
It is enough . . . . | 10:41 p.m. June 8, 2008
I don't pretend to understand all that relates to God's priesthood.
That doesn't make me especially happy or sad, but it's OK.
I read in Isaiah something like (paraphrasing here): "For my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways, saith the Lord. Just as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
I know when I served my mission in South America in the mid 70's we taught wonderful, beautiful people of many different ethnic and racial backgrounds, often all mixed up together, and many were converted to the truth.
I know that I remember the announcement of 30 years ago and thinking of it makes me emotional (read happy).
I know that when I see God's children of all colors in my ward on Sunday and in the Temple it makes my heart happy.
I know that someday I will understand God's thoughts and ways about certain things that are puzzling now. That's enough.
My testimony is of Jesus and his atonement.
God bless the whole world, no exceptions.
That doesn't make me especially happy or sad, but it's OK.
I read in Isaiah something like (paraphrasing here): "For my thoughts are not your thoughts and my ways are not your ways, saith the Lord. Just as the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts."
I know when I served my mission in South America in the mid 70's we taught wonderful, beautiful people of many different ethnic and racial backgrounds, often all mixed up together, and many were converted to the truth.
I know that I remember the announcement of 30 years ago and thinking of it makes me emotional (read happy).
I know that when I see God's children of all colors in my ward on Sunday and in the Temple it makes my heart happy.
I know that someday I will understand God's thoughts and ways about certain things that are puzzling now. That's enough.
My testimony is of Jesus and his atonement.
God bless the whole world, no exceptions.
Ed Clinch | 10:49 p.m. June 8, 2008
I am a High Priest and I home teach a brother who is black. He was converted to
the Book of Mormon and its doctrine in the late 1960s, and was disappointed by
the lack of priesthood authority for men of "color".
He gave up on the church despite his testimony and assurance of the preachings of the Book of Mormon.
He later was baptized in 2003. The missionaries that he bumped into the street informed him happily that the policy had changed.
Helvecio Martins, the first black General Authority, was baptized around 1970.
I think that these men have made correct decisions in joining the church.
May many more do so!
And all of us: read the Book of Mormon and the Bible and Doctrine and Covenants.
If you don't, who is it that misses out?
Maybe the neighbor who is depending on YOU to be converted to the truth of the Restoration of the Kingdom of God.
Then again, I could be wrong. But I won't bet on it.
Peace, brothers and sisters.
Clinch
He gave up on the church despite his testimony and assurance of the preachings of the Book of Mormon.
He later was baptized in 2003. The missionaries that he bumped into the street informed him happily that the policy had changed.
Helvecio Martins, the first black General Authority, was baptized around 1970.
I think that these men have made correct decisions in joining the church.
May many more do so!
And all of us: read the Book of Mormon and the Bible and Doctrine and Covenants.
If you don't, who is it that misses out?
Maybe the neighbor who is depending on YOU to be converted to the truth of the Restoration of the Kingdom of God.
Then again, I could be wrong. But I won't bet on it.
Peace, brothers and sisters.
Clinch
Shame, Shame, Shame!!! | 11:02 p.m. June 8, 2008
Amazing how such a racist situation is now made out to sound like God had his
hand in all of it. Shame to all of the leaders who kept the Blacks out. And more
shame to those of you who think that somehow it is all part of a
'divine' plan. The funny thing is that no one has a clue of why they
were let into the Church in 1978, (why not 77??) and more importantly, why they
were kept out in the first place.
The Revelation | 11:02 p.m. June 8, 2008
From whence did the revelation come? God has clearly taught us that HE cannot
change an eternal principle or He ceases to be God.
We CAN accept blacks into the Church without bestowing Priesthood upon the males and not be considered racist. They are our brothers and must be regarded so. It is the same principle that allows us to honor and revere our mothers and daughters in the Church without bestowing Priesthood to them and not be considered sexist. Get it?
God does not bow to public pressure.
He created laws that are eternal -- that means they are unchanging. Is He sexist? Is He racist because He stated the children of Cain would NOT have the opportunity to receive Priesthood until all His other children have had the opportunity? He didn't say they would NEVER have the right, He said they would have to wait until after the 7th Thousand Years.
He said, "What I have said, I have said, and I excuse not myself." He didn't say, "Oops! Times are a-changing (in 1978). Better adjust my thinking so as to not offend my children on earth."
We CAN accept blacks into the Church without bestowing Priesthood upon the males and not be considered racist. They are our brothers and must be regarded so. It is the same principle that allows us to honor and revere our mothers and daughters in the Church without bestowing Priesthood to them and not be considered sexist. Get it?
God does not bow to public pressure.
He created laws that are eternal -- that means they are unchanging. Is He sexist? Is He racist because He stated the children of Cain would NOT have the opportunity to receive Priesthood until all His other children have had the opportunity? He didn't say they would NEVER have the right, He said they would have to wait until after the 7th Thousand Years.
He said, "What I have said, I have said, and I excuse not myself." He didn't say, "Oops! Times are a-changing (in 1978). Better adjust my thinking so as to not offend my children on earth."
Irony | 11:38 p.m. June 8, 2008
And who is the most famous Utahn of the last 100 years?
Karl Malone
Karl Malone
Real Integration | 6:31 a.m. June 9, 2008
I am close to 50, live in Europe and have seen a lot of change in my lifetime.
Not just integration of Blacks (the race is more than just former Africans
living in the US), but also people of other races, languages, classes, etc.
Diversity is such a big term.
I go to church in Europe where people come from Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia. I delight to see a variety of clothing, hear many accents, hear conversion stories of people who have been touched by the Spirit no matter where they have come from.
I encourage the detractors here to find a positive cause, join us if they will and let's work to improve the lives of our families and those around us. There is so much good we can accomplish if we get busy and work together.
I go to church in Europe where people come from Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia. I delight to see a variety of clothing, hear many accents, hear conversion stories of people who have been touched by the Spirit no matter where they have come from.
I encourage the detractors here to find a positive cause, join us if they will and let's work to improve the lives of our families and those around us. There is so much good we can accomplish if we get busy and work together.
ajarizona | 7:56 a.m. June 9, 2008
To Shame shame shame
The blacks were not "let in" in 1978. They were always allowed membership (Baptism), It was the Priesthood which was witheld.
They were never "kept out" of the LDS Church.
Get your facts straight!
Which raises the question;
If it really was about skin color (race), then why allow membership at all?
Why didn't the LDS Church do as the Southern Baptists did and just not allow membership to blacks, period?
Which the Baptists only repudiated in 1996?
Even today, segregation in Baptist churches still exists, as holdover from their prior policies.
However, segregation never existed in the Mormon Church.
And if it was about skin color, then why, were coal black men from Figi and the South Pacific, always allowed to hold the Priesthood as well as most all men of color?
Was it a racist, skin color thing.
Or was it about lineage? As seemed to be routine throughout scripture.
For whatever reason, according to Pres. Kimball, we just don't know.
Those who speculated as to why? Were wrong!
Even McKonkie himself stated so. Those still living in 1978 who had made specualtive assertions, retracted their former comments, as just that, speculation.
The blacks were not "let in" in 1978. They were always allowed membership (Baptism), It was the Priesthood which was witheld.
They were never "kept out" of the LDS Church.
Get your facts straight!
Which raises the question;
If it really was about skin color (race), then why allow membership at all?
Why didn't the LDS Church do as the Southern Baptists did and just not allow membership to blacks, period?
Which the Baptists only repudiated in 1996?
Even today, segregation in Baptist churches still exists, as holdover from their prior policies.
However, segregation never existed in the Mormon Church.
And if it was about skin color, then why, were coal black men from Figi and the South Pacific, always allowed to hold the Priesthood as well as most all men of color?
Was it a racist, skin color thing.
Or was it about lineage? As seemed to be routine throughout scripture.
For whatever reason, according to Pres. Kimball, we just don't know.
Those who speculated as to why? Were wrong!
Even McKonkie himself stated so. Those still living in 1978 who had made specualtive assertions, retracted their former comments, as just that, speculation.
Kelton | 8:08 a.m. June 9, 2008
In studying this issue, I've discovered that Joseph Smith was incredibly
progressive in his views on "the negro race" for his time and place,
saying many things to uplift blacks as fellow human beings.
Mormons views against slavery led to a lot of serious persecution against them in the early days of the church.
Blacks actually were appointed to the priesthood, and there were black pioneers that moved to the official slave territory of Utah.
Then the church became persecuted by the Federal Government, Church property, including the temple were confiscated and during this time, Brigham Young began introducing policy or doctrine against priesthood ordination of blacks that remained until 1978. Curious.
What I've learned so far puzzles me, I'd like to learn more.
Mormons views against slavery led to a lot of serious persecution against them in the early days of the church.
Blacks actually were appointed to the priesthood, and there were black pioneers that moved to the official slave territory of Utah.
Then the church became persecuted by the Federal Government, Church property, including the temple were confiscated and during this time, Brigham Young began introducing policy or doctrine against priesthood ordination of blacks that remained until 1978. Curious.
What I've learned so far puzzles me, I'd like to learn more.
Franz | 9:08 a.m. June 9, 2008
Troutman: If this were an image thing, it would have happened a lot sooner. As
for helping the people right here, you have no idea of the extent that the LDS
Church helps in Salt Lake and around the world. Things like that don't make
headlines. If anything, the bishops ere slightly on the side of being too
generous, but is that really a bad thing?
As for the revelation, definitely the biggest thing of my lifetime. Curiously enough, I was working for Elder Packer's brother and had just pulled up in front of the brother's house when I heard the announcement. My main feeling was of great joy; I had grown up expecting it to happen some day, so it was wonderful to see it happen.
I had a roommate who was on a mission in Louisiana at that time. He told me how they were literally led to a great black family that day before even knowing about the revelation. Yes, there was significant racial tension in the ward. As I recall the story, there was a lot of prayer before the members (including the bishop) were able to humble themselves and accept the revelation.
As for the revelation, definitely the biggest thing of my lifetime. Curiously enough, I was working for Elder Packer's brother and had just pulled up in front of the brother's house when I heard the announcement. My main feeling was of great joy; I had grown up expecting it to happen some day, so it was wonderful to see it happen.
I had a roommate who was on a mission in Louisiana at that time. He told me how they were literally led to a great black family that day before even knowing about the revelation. Yes, there was significant racial tension in the ward. As I recall the story, there was a lot of prayer before the members (including the bishop) were able to humble themselves and accept the revelation.
My question For LDS people | 10:34 a.m. June 9, 2008
How could there be a "war" in "heaven"?
Steve45 | 11:23 a.m. June 9, 2008
In 1960, as a teenager, visiting SLC from California, I took the elevator up to
the top floor of Hotel Utah to meet any of the all-"colored" staff in
the L.D.S.-owned Sky Room Restaurant. The manager invited me into his office
and explained excitedly that he was so thankful to be a member of the Church,
but also thankful not to have to be accountable for the covenants required of
priesthood holders at the time. He said he knew that faithful males of his
people in the Church would be called to hold the priesthood someday. Leaving
his office that day, I had a great feeling of increased faith. In `78, on the
day I heard about President Kimball's revelation, it was such a great
feeling of fulfillment of that brother's prophetic statement.
John Lambert | 12:04 p.m. June 9, 2008
Imhale,
I think your comments were good. Although I think that there are issus with the book of David O. McKay you references, I think many posters here would have to change their tune if they read the book.
Another issue is are people always using the terms practice, principal and doctrine the same? There is disagreement, but there is also a phenomenon of people talking around eachother, which may be happening.
I think your comments were good. Although I think that there are issus with the book of David O. McKay you references, I think many posters here would have to change their tune if they read the book.
Another issue is are people always using the terms practice, principal and doctrine the same? There is disagreement, but there is also a phenomenon of people talking around eachother, which may be happening.
to ajarizona | 9:09 a.m. June 10, 2008
Saying that blacks were allowed in but just weren't allowed the priesthood
kind of sounds like "blacks are allowed to ride on the bus so I don't
know what they are complaining about."
Grant | 10:06 a.m. June 10, 2008
This is old and tired. There is no excuse for the LDS Church's century-long
racism. The "revelation" in 1978 was "convenient" for an
embattled Church that wanted to become more mainstream, and it came MUCH later
than the civil rights movement created change in the larger US society. Clearly,
God's so-called "revelation" came AFTER Martin Luther King, Jr.
and others already had their own revelation. The Mormon God is so behind the
times it is laughable. And the doctrinal excuses used by LDS apologists to
explain the racism is still woven into the fabric of LDS society - I have never
met so many cautious racists in one place as I have in the LDS Church (in
California).
We weren't ready | 10:37 a.m. June 10, 2008
This has always been a topic that has been strong in my mind since first hearing
negative like these as a young man in the late 80s. I never had an answer. Being
raised as someone that should respect people of all races, its easy to look back
and and fault those who where raised differntly 150, 100 or even 50 years ago.
Who knows if the church would've survived in the past if it would've
done things differently. The church is something that has to grow with the times
for proper gowth, and it continues to change and grow to continue. This answer
that has allowed me to come to terms with this issue, is that the church was not
ready men of color to hold the priesthood until it was finally changed. We may
not know the reasons why we weren't ready until 1978, but seeing the growth
that has been made since then makes me a believer that things were done right.
We will see men of color in the 12 one day, it will just take some time.
To: We Weren't Ready | 12:52 p.m. June 10, 2008
One of the explanations for withholding the Priesthood to blacks was that we as
members and society in general were not ready. The argument continues that the
Church and its progress may have been hurt somehow if we allowed equal
privileges to blacks too early. Well, the doctrine of plural marriage caused
tremendous problems for the Church and continues to be a stumbling block to
converts to this day. NO ONE was ready for that one and yet supposedly the Lord
instituted at the point of an angelic sword anyway.
As members, we pull out so many outright strange and inconsistent "excuses" for what is troubling about our past history and teachings. Perhaps we need to just say we don't know and are greatful that things have changed. Excuses and apologetics tend to make the matter far worse for most people of minimal intelligence.
As members, we pull out so many outright strange and inconsistent "excuses" for what is troubling about our past history and teachings. Perhaps we need to just say we don't know and are greatful that things have changed. Excuses and apologetics tend to make the matter far worse for most people of minimal intelligence.
RE: We weren't ready... | 4:11 p.m. June 10, 2008
Tell that to the next black person that is investigating the church when this
topic comes up: "I don't know, just be greatful things have
changed" and see how that goes over. It's not much of a response and
may be something you are content with, but it isn't for me and it
isn't for many others. There may be many reasons the way things happened
the way they did, reason we may never know. But to say that we as members, as
well as others outside the religion needed to be prepared before changes were
made is a logical response. Perhaps its not a one-size-fits-all answer when you
bring up other past issues such as plural marriage, but its a response to the
topic at hand.
Anthony | 4:28 p.m. June 10, 2008
I moved to Utah after growing up in Alabama, without any knowledge of the Mormon
church. After meeting so many LDS people, I was interested in learning more
about it. It didn't take long for me to learn about how my ethnicity was
not allowed the priesthood, and no one could give me an answer why. After a
while, without any answers, I lost interest. A few years later while attending
Utah State, I was invited to attend a church talk given by Thurl Bailey where he
told his conversion story. He spoke about how he met with a mission president in
Europe where he brought up many questions, including this one. When Thurl spoke
of the answer the mission president gave him, I felt the spirit so strongly that
I knew it was true. The answer was "the world wasn't ready.... we
weren't ready." I was baptized that year and it was probably the best
decision of my life.
Black Panther | 9:45 p.m. June 10, 2008
What a lame excuse for racism: "The world wasn't ready"...
Give me a break! Martin Luther King, Jr. wasn't ready? Rosa Parks wasn't ready? Thurgood Marshall and The Little Rock Nine weren't ready? All these courageous leaders "weren't ready" for blacks to have equal access to priesthood and temple blessings, but the world WAS ready for polygamy!!!??
What do you take us for, fools of the highest order?!
Give me a break! Martin Luther King, Jr. wasn't ready? Rosa Parks wasn't ready? Thurgood Marshall and The Little Rock Nine weren't ready? All these courageous leaders "weren't ready" for blacks to have equal access to priesthood and temple blessings, but the world WAS ready for polygamy!!!??
What do you take us for, fools of the highest order?!
Joanne | 10:11 p.m. June 10, 2008
I thought the leaders of the LDS Church received revelation and told the
followers what God wanted, not the other way around.
But when you claim that the blacks did not receive the priesthood for over 100 years because "the members weren't ready", that suggests that the members and their willingness to accept a doctrine determines when or if God will reveal it. Isn't that backwards? And why did God use the same reasoning to withhold the revelation on polygamy, because sure enough the members weren't ready for that!?
But when you claim that the blacks did not receive the priesthood for over 100 years because "the members weren't ready", that suggests that the members and their willingness to accept a doctrine determines when or if God will reveal it. Isn't that backwards? And why did God use the same reasoning to withhold the revelation on polygamy, because sure enough the members weren't ready for that!?
Does God Loves Blacks?? | 11:45 p.m. June 10, 2008
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God loved black people?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God realized that He differentiates color?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God rewards to everyone who is worthy?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God accepts every race, creed and people?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God gives blessings to everyone?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God answered prayers of the Blacks?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God gave His love unconditionally?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's died for the sins of the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's shedding of blood included the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's forgiveness included the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's mercy included the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's promises of many mansions included the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's inheritance included the blacks?
I don't undersand why only 30 years ago,
I am so differently loved then the whites.
God loved black people?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God realized that He differentiates color?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God rewards to everyone who is worthy?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God accepts every race, creed and people?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God gives blessings to everyone?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God answered prayers of the Blacks?
I don't understand that only 30 years ago,
God gave His love unconditionally?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's died for the sins of the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's shedding of blood included the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's forgiveness included the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's mercy included the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's promises of many mansions included the blacks?
I don't understand why only 30 years ago,
Christ's inheritance included the blacks?
I don't undersand why only 30 years ago,
I am so differently loved then the whites.
We are on earth but a short time | 4:19 a.m. June 11, 2008
Is that long enough to learn God's eternal principles?
30 years ago, God gave revelation to further his work with his children tht he loves.
Sorry some don't understand.
I think the Lord has given yu ways to gain understanding.
See Genesis on LDSORG, they understand.
I don't understand, but I am not God.
30 years ago, God gave revelation to further his work with his children tht he loves.
Sorry some don't understand.
I think the Lord has given yu ways to gain understanding.
See Genesis on LDSORG, they understand.
I don't understand, but I am not God.
RE: We weren't ready... | 9:26 a.m. June 11, 2008
You guys think you are contradicting my point, but you are really proving my
point even further. Why do you think the world wasn't ready? Racism was a
very large part of society back then, even after the civil rights movement (and
this includes racism for both sides). You think the US governement made some
laws and then with the snap of their fingers, everyone had a change of heart? It
takes time for people to change, and I believe God gave revelation for this
change when the time was right, when the hearts of minds or both black and white
people were ready for it. And in 78, I can guarantee most of the LDS church
members were happy for the change.
Polygamy is a totally different subject and had different circumstances. Perhaps it had to happen whether the world was ready or not. I don't have an answer for that. But if you want to keep changing the subject to polygamy, perhaps you should be leaving comments on a differnt news article.
Polygamy is a totally different subject and had different circumstances. Perhaps it had to happen whether the world was ready or not. I don't have an answer for that. But if you want to keep changing the subject to polygamy, perhaps you should be leaving comments on a differnt news article.
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I was a 16 year old at the baptism of Mary Frances Sturlaugson. and felt her testimony cut through my soul.
I have felt the guilt of being White. During my college years studying Mongomery, Selma, Birmingham, etc. I confessed this to my Black Studies professor, and he asked me "Why, what did YOU do?" I said "nothing", and he told me "this is not a pigmentation thing, this is how people treat people". White people marched with Dr. King.
I now teach at an Urban High School. Many students and colleages (I consider them family and friends) treat me as if I was just another person, and I treat them the same way.
I thank the Lord for his timely Revelation, through his prophet Spencer W. Kimball, giving all worthy male members the priesthood.
I have family members that are African American.
I truely stand all amazed...