Deseret News | Reader comments: Lawsuit against Utah ed bill is grandstanding

Reader comments
My view: Lawsuit against Utah ed bill is grandstanding

Anonymous | 4:01 a.m. June 8, 2008

Wow that was pathetic.

Do these guys really believe the tripe they write?

Giving software to 3 years olds is the most ridiculous thing I have heard of.

People wouldn't have a big problem with this bill if it didn't contain parts that were already voted down. That is where the big mistake was made.

The lawsuit is definitely not "anti-democratic". It is democracy at its best.

Who votes for these guys anyway?

No wonder education is Utah is in a rapid decline. With friends like these two, who needs enemies?

Anonymous | 4:33 a.m. June 8, 2008

Someone here is grandstanding but it isn't the people that started the lawsuit.

Anonymous | 4:37 a.m. June 8, 2008

gotten not goten. sorry. It's early.

Comments continue below

Concerned Citizen | 6:29 a.m. June 8, 2008

AMEN!

Howard Stephenson is a tru public servant and should be commendedon his hard work to get the important jobs done well in the legislative process. THis is a good example of that.

This is also a good example of his opponent's tireless efforts to spent the state into the ground to fund their favorite political activists, the education establishment. And a monument to the news media's being clearly aligned with the liberal position on just about every issue.

Thousands of court cases pass with little public fanfare, and this frivolous case should also. But,that would not help advance the liberal agenda, or provide the much desired free publicity for the media's chosen allies, so READ ALL ABOUT IT in the "news" section, as an unpaid reminder to vote for the minority party in November.

Professor | 7:56 a.m. June 8, 2008

A frivolous sour grapes lawsuit. The bill is well thought out and addresses the very things this group has been whining about.

The courts should make the "intellectuals" who filed the foolish political lawsuit pay court costs!

School Parent | 8:05 a.m. June 8, 2008

Howard is right on the money. This grandstanding lawsuit is simply a political move by the radical wing of our educational establishment to stir things up.

Instead of throwing this bomb into our K12 system they should have been reaching across the aisle and thinking of our children instead of themselves.

Scott R. | 8:08 a.m. June 8, 2008

What a bunch of whooie. They might have debated the bill, but they did not listen to their advisors. I especially love the money for more science teachers where 3 of the 5 required degrees do not exists at any university in the world. That way they get to claim there was more money, but hardly any will be spent. Way to go!

Yeah, right | 8:36 a.m. June 8, 2008

Keep writing these columns, guys; it will just help remind us who to vote against in November. Why don't you just try to legislate in an above-board manner?

Nick | 8:55 a.m. June 8, 2008

First, to "Concerned Citizen," please talk to your doctor about your meds. Hyperventilating about "liberals" indicates your current dose isn't working.

Second, does anyone seriously doubt the "ick" factor in SB2? Utah Republican legislators, self-absorbed, clueless and vindictive by nature, couldn't stomach the rejection of some of their pet projects through the normal legislative process, so they played Dr. Frankenstein and created this monster as a way to force life into bills that had already been killed. And now, "It's alive!"

Angry peasants from the village near the castle (that's you and me, folks), are upset with this clumsy abomination, and so we take up our pitchforks and torches and file suit to stop the monster and teach the arrogant madmen who made it a lesson in government.

EdM | 10:57 a.m. June 8, 2008

It is amazing the "spin" that some legislators put on the who/what/when/where/how/why on their actions during each legislative session. My only hope is that he finds himself out of office in November.

Conservative Republican | 1:11 p.m. June 8, 2008

I have been a conservative Republican all of my voting life. Nevertheless, I believe that Howard
Stephenson has been on a decades long campaign to destroy public education in Utah; He has a major conflict of interest in almost everything he does. He is the Executive Director of the so-called Tax Payers Association. This association represents only big business, and its major goal is to keep their taxes as low as possible. No wonder Utah education is funded at the lowest level of any state.

I believe that the people who filed this lawsuit are correct in every respect. All of Howard's whining will not change the truth - no matter how carefully he tries to obfuscate it.

maybe | 2:27 p.m. June 8, 2008

Senator Stephenson and Last are flat out lying about bills they are familiar with. You can debate bills with high spending early in the session and pass through 4 of the 5 required committee and floor votes to pass a bill. The bill then waits in the rules committee until the 40th day of the session, Feb. 27th this year.

Over half of the bills in the SB2 had passed 4 votes UNANIMOUSLY days and weeks previous to Feb. 27th. They had been debated and approved of. They were awaiting only the formality of a final vote when permitted on Feb. 27th. However, they mysteriously did not reappear until a late afternoon press conference on Mar. 3rd when they were shoved into the omnibus bill to save Stephenson's pet lobbyist software for preschoolers and more $ for charter schools. The bill was debated the last two days of the session. Why not pass the bills in a time-conscious manner on the 27th--pure politics to bypass the process when you lose.

Then when you're called on it, write grandstanding opinion pieces hypocritically accusing your opponents of grandstanding and trying to avoid the process.

zag | 2:56 p.m. June 8, 2008

I find Senator Stephenson's explanation laughable. Does he really think we are that dumb? Stephenson is known for going about things in an underhanded way and this time he got caught. Stephenson should be nervous--Draper voters are tired of him not listening to them in regard to education issues. This editorial was nothing but a little PR for Stephenson as well as the rest of the Utah Republicans. Voters should be outraged by the Education Omnibus Bill and the underhanded and dishonest way that it was passed. If there is any grandstanding going on, this editorial is it.

a draper republican | 3:44 p.m. June 8, 2008

Trying to excuse the reason why these added bills were not passed on their own merits to time constraints is embarrassing. "Welcome to an essential (and potentially frustrating)element of democracy: You need a majority" Exactly Mr. Stephenson. Take your own advice. It may be frustrating and time consuming but that is what keeps arrogant legislators, like Mr. Stephenson, from taking our government hostage and using it for their own selfish desires. Our republican legislators are doing nothing good for public education. They complain that giving schools more money will not improve education (Mr. Tillman) but really should we be proud that we have the lowest per pupil spending in the country. That is really embarrassing. Legislators, get the hint. Fund education appropriately and keep all of your "pet projects" out of it. Draper (and the rest of the state) lets clean house!

to Draper "Republican" | 8:26 p.m. June 8, 2008

I think Senator Stephenson addressed your argument when he mentioned how many attempts were made to amend the bill and get rid of sections that had previously failed as stand-alone bills. The people proposing the amendments couldn't get a majority. Last time I checked, Legislators were free to bring up past bills that have already been defeated. If that weren't the case we'd be in big trouble.

QUICK POLITICAL SCIENCE LESSON:
Compromise is at the heart of any piece of legislation. Without it, it would be impossible to get anything done. If you can't accept this fact, then you should probably avoid politics.

P.S. I think Draper Republican meant to type "Draper Democrat Pretending to be a Republican to Try and Scare His Current Legislators" because Senator Stephenson and Representative Hughes are two of the best Republicans we have in this state.

Science teacher | 8:30 p.m. June 8, 2008

Have to agree with the science teacher portion.

Teachers have to have one of any 5 degrees to get the degree. Unfortunately only 2 of the 5 degrees are available at Utah universities.

They made it sound like all science teachers were going to get raises when in reality about 5% will.

it was a way to make themselves (legislators) look good to the public without having to put the money into education.

I was recently at a conference for Utah science teachers. The state office science specialist was there and we asked her about it. She explained the details. One teacher from the group got up and asked, "how many science teachers here would qualify for this money?"

Answer:

Not a SINGLE one.

EdM | 8:54 p.m. June 8, 2008

To: To Draper Republican

Why can't you accept the fact that there are people in your own party who disagree with Senator Stephenson and Representative Hughes? Why call this person a "Draper Democrat"? So when we disagree we say that they are something else? This omnibus bill was not "compromise". It was shoved through at the end of the session in a fashion that forced people to have to accept Senator Stephenson's bills in order to get previously agreed to legislation passed. I hope the Senator finds himself voted out of office. He, Speaker Curtis and Mr. Bramble. Gone.

John | 9:48 p.m. June 8, 2008

Yea, there were amendment attempts to SB2 but by then, Speaker Curtis had twisted arms again and again and again.
But I agree with this constitutional challenge. The public does need to understand what is going on and omnibus bills the last three days of the session, with no committee hearings, just keep the public in the dark.

Another Political Science Lesson | 11:23 p.m. June 8, 2008

Welcome to an essential (and potentially frustrating) element of democracy: Legislative power is checked by the courts. It seems the political message here is if legislative leadership wanted it, it must be right. The courts (like the counties, cities, local school districts, etc.) should all just do what the oligarchs say. Sorry, Mr. Stephenson and Mr. Last. If that's the way you want to run things, you're in the wrong country.

Anti-micromanager | 11:40 p.m. June 8, 2008

Utah's midnight "omnibus" SB-2 bill funded bonuses ($4,500) for math/science (m/s) majors; new-grads too. Certified m/s-minor teachers outnumber m/s majors and got zero, like our daughter teaching bulging geometry classes the full course; and her pupils test well.

Half of teachers quit within 5 years. Fewer quit if mentored by more proficient teachers. SB-2 pushes away scarce Utah m/s-minor teachers toward nearby states, and ambushes rural Utah's multi-subject teachers. Brilliant.

Our kids had "Doc" for secondary-calculus (my calculus came in college; later we all had yet-tougher math). "Doc", a math-encyclopedic engineer, didn't major in math; SB-2 forbids bonuses to non-m/s-majors like him: Zero.

SB-2's lopsided authors modestly trumpet myriad self-credentials, lacking math. Math-classmates (if any) of SB-2 sponsors: report math skills, if any, of SB-2 authors and apologists? Their "world-class math" hypocrisy likely masks little math?

Until 1996, Utah school funding efforts excelled, then fell. Utah schools' fractions of income-tax declined because colleges got more income-tax, but less sales-tax (shifted to roads). Radicals favor slashing property-taxes (state revenue's third leg), inflating regressive sales-tax instead. 2-3 recent years' "extra money" still leaves Utah ed. way short.

Utah's Constitution mandates single-subject bills, fitting one short title-line. SB-2 fails.

To: Anti-micromanager | 1:47 a.m. June 9, 2008

One thing that most voters don't know is that this year the legislature passed TWO omnibus bills. The other one was a tax related bill that actually created a flat tax, retroactive to Jan. 1, 2008. What that means is higher taxes for the lower and middle income taxpayers, lower taxes for the higher brackets, and FEWER EDUCATION DOLLARS FOR THE STATE. The reason that we didn't hear much about this debated is because it is buried in the middle of a monstrous omnibus bill. I'd think this was kind of an important change that should have had more public input.

What a laugh! | 8:38 a.m. June 9, 2008

You all are hilarious! I've never seen such a bunch of whiny teenagers in my life. First of all, the courts are the least democratic part of our government - I personally think they are vital to a successful democracy, but a lawsuit is not democratic, in any sense of the word, and resort to the courts in response to legislation is almost always because someone is sore about what the proper legislative channels achieved. I tend to hate most legislation that gets passed by the Utah Legislature, Congress, or any legislative body, but I don't go running to the courts like some spoiled toddler who didn't get their way. Too bad so many posters on this thread never got over the spoiled toddler phase of their lives.

As for the underlying issue (which is noticeably lacking in most of your posts), the Utah Constitution appears to prohibit lumping different subjects into the same bill, and thus prohibits omnibus bills, but when all of the bills are on the same subject (EDUCATION), then lumping them all together doesn't defeat the "single subject" requirement, because the subject is Education.

"Education" not a single subject | 9:44 a.m. June 9, 2008

You may try to argue that all bills had the single subject, "education." Such a position is difficult to swallow. Even the term "omnibus" means bringing different things together.

First, the term is so broad that it is effectively the same as asserting all bills have a single subject, "Utah government."

Even if I could conclude that a program providing pre-schoolers home computers is the same subject as how textbooks are evaluated for use in public schools, which is the same subject as extra pay for science and math teachers, that position fails the second constitutional requirement, that the subject be clearly expressed in the title. The title of the bill was "Minimum School Program Amendments." The MSP is defined in statute to be K-12 public schools. Clearly, a lobbyist-inspired program of giving software to pre-schoolers for use at home is not accurately reflected by the title. Other subjects included in SB2 were also not accurately represented by the bill's title.

Homer | 11:40 p.m. June 9, 2008

They can try to justify this crummy piece of legislation by saying it was for a good cause. But we need to put a check on this kind of legislative shenanigans.

I think they're testing the waters on this legislative technique for future "creative" compromises. Making our legislative process clear and transparent with fair procedures for debate and open politicking will help control the oligarchic tendencies of our ruling elitists.

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