Reader comments
'I didn't bring this on FLDS,' sheriff says
106 comments | Read story
Gail | 5:41 a.m. June 4, 2008
This whole case would have been vastly different if the Fundamentalists had been
open and forthcomeing with information. When you have a group of people who are
being justly investigated and they refuse to give out correct names and family
relationships, the whole setup would be suspicious. What if CPS did NOT
investicate--then there would be an outcry of them not doing their job. They
could not just ignore the allegations. They had to do what they did. The
parents should have been honest with the police and CPS. They chose not to be
and then they did not like the results. Why would the law in Texas exclude them
from telling the truth.
Snipers and Armored | 5:43 a.m. June 4, 2008
Vehicles against the American People by the Texas Government.
We have a MAJOR PROBLEM here with Civil RIGHTS !
This very well could have been another Waco.
No Thanks to Law Enforcement.
We have to many people in place violating the CIVIL RIGHTS of the People
Problem with the Court is the need never to let go
with conditions
They have no good evidence
Time for America to stand up and shout
The Courts are out of control
We have a MAJOR PROBLEM here with Civil RIGHTS !
This very well could have been another Waco.
No Thanks to Law Enforcement.
We have to many people in place violating the CIVIL RIGHTS of the People
Problem with the Court is the need never to let go
with conditions
They have no good evidence
Time for America to stand up and shout
The Courts are out of control
Comments continue below
Christo | 5:45 a.m. June 4, 2008
�I didn�t bring this on
FLDS,� sheriff says
Yes sheriff, we believe you, we heard that before,
�It was EVE who made you do it.�
Yes sheriff, we believe you, we heard that before,
�It was EVE who made you do it.�
Now it becomes clear | 5:49 a.m. June 4, 2008
He is right - Sheriff Doran was an pawn and wasn't in control. The entire
thing was planned at the Governor's level.
If you're the Governor how do you stop Polygamy in your state while also putting a halter on an out of control social agency, CPS? You ask your agencies, particularly the AG, how can these objective be accomplished?
Advice:
1. Get the Legislature to change the laws on marriage consent, polygamy, and bigamy. Raise the age of consent to 16 and make it illegal to consent to an illegal(polygamy or bigamy) marriage until age of majority(18).
2. Put spies in place to report on the FLDS community until there are some apparent underage pregnancies.
3. Organize a plan of attack for the FLDS ranch.
4. Feed CPS the information necessary to get them to act or hopefully, constitutionally overact. Let CPS and Walther pull the trigger and force access to monitoring the FLDS.
5. The taxpayers vent their anger about the cost at CPS and Walther.
The state stops new polygamous marriages until the age of 18 and also gets a reform of CPS's bloated 9,000+ personnel and $1.5 Billion budget.
Whoever planned this is brilliant.
If you're the Governor how do you stop Polygamy in your state while also putting a halter on an out of control social agency, CPS? You ask your agencies, particularly the AG, how can these objective be accomplished?
Advice:
1. Get the Legislature to change the laws on marriage consent, polygamy, and bigamy. Raise the age of consent to 16 and make it illegal to consent to an illegal(polygamy or bigamy) marriage until age of majority(18).
2. Put spies in place to report on the FLDS community until there are some apparent underage pregnancies.
3. Organize a plan of attack for the FLDS ranch.
4. Feed CPS the information necessary to get them to act or hopefully, constitutionally overact. Let CPS and Walther pull the trigger and force access to monitoring the FLDS.
5. The taxpayers vent their anger about the cost at CPS and Walther.
The state stops new polygamous marriages until the age of 18 and also gets a reform of CPS's bloated 9,000+ personnel and $1.5 Billion budget.
Whoever planned this is brilliant.
how many more days.. | 5:51 a.m. June 4, 2008
are we going to see endless articles on the FLDS?? Who cares and why do you keep
writing this stuff?? I don't see this much attention in any other media
outlet, including Texas. I say drop it and cover some real news.
There are people digging out and starving in China, Iran is making nukes, there's a war in Iraq. The only other story getting more disproportionate coverage is the US election. If you want more drivel to divert your attention, did you know the Osmonds sold out Wembley last weekend??
There are people digging out and starving in China, Iran is making nukes, there's a war in Iraq. The only other story getting more disproportionate coverage is the US election. If you want more drivel to divert your attention, did you know the Osmonds sold out Wembley last weekend??
roger | 6:00 a.m. June 4, 2008
Phone traffic between Texas and Colorado law enforcement proves that Texas
officials knew that Rozita Swinton was the source of the hoax calls, and that
she had a multi-year history of making phony 911 calls BEFORE the initial
affidavit for search warrant was submitted to the judge (March 30 timeframe).
That is prima facie evidence of lying, on sworn affidavit before the court (April 3 timeframe).
Sheriff now tries to weasel out of the lie by pigeonholing the roles of CPS and law enforcement. "CPS acted in good faith; LE just responded." Oh, they didn't talk to each other?
Anyone with common sense can see through this ridiculous charade.
That is prima facie evidence of lying, on sworn affidavit before the court (April 3 timeframe).
Sheriff now tries to weasel out of the lie by pigeonholing the roles of CPS and law enforcement. "CPS acted in good faith; LE just responded." Oh, they didn't talk to each other?
Anyone with common sense can see through this ridiculous charade.
oh Really? | 5:59 a.m. June 4, 2008
7 million dollars and one fake phone call,that could easily have been discovered
by my caller I.D., later he calls he "didn't bring this on the FLDS.
Is this man trying to sell me a bridge in the desert?
well said | 6:01 a.m. June 4, 2008
An eye opening interview.
Leander Pearson | 6:28 a.m. June 4, 2008
His excuses are not good enough.
Law enforcement officers take an oath that include the clause "to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." At some point did the officer wonder if the constitutional rights of these citizen were being violated? Perhaps during their mass deportation out of their community to the "camp"?
Following "orders" in the form of search warrants is not good enough. This was the defense of many former German soldiers in the post World War II Nuremberg war crime trials. As with soldiers, law enforcement officers should always have the constitutional rights of the citizens that they are bound to serve and protect in the forefront of their minds. After all, any powers they have are derived from those people and their rights.
Perhaps this circus would have turned out different if just a few of those involved in this action asked a few questions instead of "just following orders".
Law enforcement officers take an oath that include the clause "to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States." At some point did the officer wonder if the constitutional rights of these citizen were being violated? Perhaps during their mass deportation out of their community to the "camp"?
Following "orders" in the form of search warrants is not good enough. This was the defense of many former German soldiers in the post World War II Nuremberg war crime trials. As with soldiers, law enforcement officers should always have the constitutional rights of the citizens that they are bound to serve and protect in the forefront of their minds. After all, any powers they have are derived from those people and their rights.
Perhaps this circus would have turned out different if just a few of those involved in this action asked a few questions instead of "just following orders".
Aware | 6:32 a.m. June 4, 2008
I know David Doran to be a good and honest man. But... he IS a politician too.
You can see it in the way he skirts questions. He has an election coming up, as
do the county commissioners, and you can bet they will all be
"friends" to the YFZ folks. They outnumber the "citizens"
(as they like to be called) by a great number, and they are concerned. Maybe the
state of TX will come up with a way to disavow their votes. Kind of like Clinton
and Gore when they tried to keep all active military from voting. Yep, this was
a cluster from the get-go, and they all know it.
so sad | 6:39 a.m. June 4, 2008
This guy doesn't live in reality. Doran said there are "a lot of
underage pregnant girls." CPS or the sheriffs department has yet to produce
them. All the law enforcement, armored tanks, etc. were there for backup. I
don't think he believes this garbage himself. This is another guy, along
with Walthers, who should be removed from office immediately. They caused enough
harm to the children, the very people they are trying to have us believe they
were "only" protecting.
zxcvbnm | 6:50 a.m. June 4, 2008
"Acted on good faith". Watch this phrase become the catch all phrase for all state of Texas agencies as the mess continues.
Well, we kinda sorta thought that there might maybe be......based on rumors from a credible.....whoops..crazy caller.
Those pregnant teens.....ya know the 37, 26, 24, year old and all the other girls..uh women.
They had an arsenal....ya know 5 hunting rifles....and a bed with a hair......and a crematorium where they.......awe shucks forget that.
Yep......good faith, don't forget about the good faith, we have a lot of that good faith stuff just flowing thru our veins.
That pesky ole constitution just got in the way of ......ya know.......good faith.
We will watch as the bumbling bozos stumble over each other trying to extricate themselves from their self engineered travesty and put little faith in their claims of "good faith"
Dah | 6:52 a.m. June 4, 2008
Very interesting Doran relied on such informants as Caroline and Flora. Two very
anti FLDS activists. The FLDS are not even the same church as it originated from
before WArren Jeffs. No body knows what is happening in that compound except the
people who are there. Caroline had a rocky marriage with Merrill, maybe alot of
the nonsence she wrote about in that family actually took place but the whole
people cannot be measured by that ruler. Take a good look at the growth of that
place in Texas. The men and women must work 24/7 to accomplish what they have in
such a short period of time. Don't leave allot of time and energy for
people to be having s e x. C'mon really do we have to call them a sex cult?
COSMO | 6:57 a.m. June 4, 2008
Sounds like standard political damage control.
jr | 6:58 a.m. June 4, 2008
The FLDS brought it on themselves, one of their own elders said he thought that
the law was 14 for marriage, they hadn't paid attention to the change in
law. At the same time that said it all and he wasn't no 20 year old. Utah
has allowed polygamy to flourish for years and will continue to do so because
the AG has a relationship with the groups.
Gray Wolf | 7:21 a.m. June 4, 2008
Thanks Ben W. for the attempt to get some feedback from Schleicher County
Sheriff David Doran.
The law and law enforcement being what they are, I believe Sheriff Doran has a lot more to say but it won't come out in such a news format.
It is somewhat like asking federal security services how they planned to protect President Bush when he was recently in Salt Lake City. The only thing a news reporter would get is "pablum".
Sheriff Doran is the "point man" in Schleicher County that began the whole thing. Did he help to save lives and minimize property damage, probably so! Should he ever be trusted again by the FLDS, certainly not!
The law and law enforcement being what they are, I believe Sheriff Doran has a lot more to say but it won't come out in such a news format.
It is somewhat like asking federal security services how they planned to protect President Bush when he was recently in Salt Lake City. The only thing a news reporter would get is "pablum".
Sheriff Doran is the "point man" in Schleicher County that began the whole thing. Did he help to save lives and minimize property damage, probably so! Should he ever be trusted again by the FLDS, certainly not!
"at least we know underage | 7:32 a.m. June 4, 2008
children will be protected" what about all the other underage Texans who
are pregnant and mothers?
Teacher and Dad | 7:51 a.m. June 4, 2008
What else can the Sheriff say? He's got to cover his behind because
he'll be coming up for reelection. I think that he tried though, in his own
way, to be objective about the raid, but his obvious subtle biases against the
FLDS show through. He bought in to some of the misrepresentations (some people
call them lies) made up by the CPS. But I suppose that at the time, their
stories seemed credible, at least to him.
I think that its interesting that the FLDS actually put Dale Barlow on the phone to him to prove that Barlow wasn't actually in Texas molesting a young lady. It sounds as if the FLDS trusted the sheriff and his judgement to a large extent, and counted on him for some support while they were being unjustly accused. The sheriff, unfortunately, though, had to act like a middle man, and in order to preserve his job and friendships with townspeople, had to follow the course of least resistance and side with the CPS action..
I think that its interesting that the FLDS actually put Dale Barlow on the phone to him to prove that Barlow wasn't actually in Texas molesting a young lady. It sounds as if the FLDS trusted the sheriff and his judgement to a large extent, and counted on him for some support while they were being unjustly accused. The sheriff, unfortunately, though, had to act like a middle man, and in order to preserve his job and friendships with townspeople, had to follow the course of least resistance and side with the CPS action..
Freedom Mann | 7:51 a.m. June 4, 2008
Gee, how nice it is to hear "I was only following orders!" in a nice,
Texas drawl.
But seriously, I think Sheriff Doran is basically a reasonable man doing the best he can in one very tough situation, much of it being way beyond his control and authority.
Additionally, like any good local politician (as opposed to his role as an agent of the LAW) Doran is also doing a fine job of wetting his finger and holding it up in the breeze.
Good work Sheriff Doran! You've got my vote! At least you're honest about it!
But seriously, I think Sheriff Doran is basically a reasonable man doing the best he can in one very tough situation, much of it being way beyond his control and authority.
Additionally, like any good local politician (as opposed to his role as an agent of the LAW) Doran is also doing a fine job of wetting his finger and holding it up in the breeze.
Good work Sheriff Doran! You've got my vote! At least you're honest about it!
Tejas1 | 8:13 a.m. June 4, 2008
In Texas a Sheriff can be removed by a write in candidate, you must reside in
the county 12 months prior to filing, filing deadline is 70 days before the
general election, voters must be registered 30 days prior to the election,
George H. Bush lived in Mass but has always voted in Texas, Case law supports domicile has where you intend to live for voting purposes, hmmm , I think I intend to live in Schleicher County, go online
Texas Secretary of State, Elections
George H. Bush lived in Mass but has always voted in Texas, Case law supports domicile has where you intend to live for voting purposes, hmmm , I think I intend to live in Schleicher County, go online
Texas Secretary of State, Elections
Disgusted | 8:31 a.m. June 4, 2008
I believe the Sheriff of Schleicher County!!Try reading the interview with an
open mind!!
ediddy | 8:31 a.m. June 4, 2008
With due respect to the need for confidentiality in an on going investigation,
this man is as evasive and "dodging" as CPS claims the FLDS to have
been. "We were searching for a victim on the property. She hasn't been
found yet." Because it has been conclusively determined that
"she" didn't exist! A hoax call from a hoax victim in Colorado.
Even from the text of his comments, this sherriff is trying to cover his butt
while still trying to look like a good guy with the FLDS people. The spin
doctoring on this mess is never going to end while Texas continues to harass
these people. Civil rights have been violated here by government agencies with
the assistance of local bigots, including one Judge Walther. Effectively
locating the real truth has been forever compromised, but that won't end
the witch hunt.
I reiterate that I am not FLDS, nor do I condone their religious point of view, but the continued stonewalling by Texas authorities is pathetic.
I reiterate that I am not FLDS, nor do I condone their religious point of view, but the continued stonewalling by Texas authorities is pathetic.
Clean hands says: | 8:51 a.m. June 4, 2008
He didn't bring it on the FLDS, but he sure nuf facilitated the thugs who
did. Kind of like holding the coat of the bully while he beats the skinny kid to
a pulp. Yup, "clean hands."
The man an Nuremberg said: | 9:02 a.m. June 4, 2008
"I was just following orders"
Sharon | 9:06 a.m. June 4, 2008
I am curious to know......why....it took 3 hours of waiting at the gate before
being let in the compound. What...or should I say WHO...were the FLDS trying to
hide. If as stated, the FLDS were told at the gate who the law and CPS were
looking for and why....its not to hard to figure out...there is no way...the
FLDS are going to let this girl be found on their property....there is always a
back exit !
Bruce | 9:13 a.m. June 4, 2008
"I didn't bring this on FLDS"
That sounds like the "I was just following orders" lame excuse that has been used in so many attocities. The good sheriff could have spoke up and opposed the illegal raid. He didn't when he was in a position to.
Through his inaction, he very much helped bring this on the FLDS.
I suppose he's to be excused as long as he keeps scwawking "good faith".
That sounds like the "I was just following orders" lame excuse that has been used in so many attocities. The good sheriff could have spoke up and opposed the illegal raid. He didn't when he was in a position to.
Through his inaction, he very much helped bring this on the FLDS.
I suppose he's to be excused as long as he keeps scwawking "good faith".
wyogirl | 9:21 a.m. June 4, 2008
The truth is beginning to come out.
Shocked - I'm shocked that these parents would protect their MEN over their children. They did everything they could to make it as difficult as possible for CPS. They held them up at the gate for hours, they refused to let them see the girls, they made the girls get up in the middle of the night. I can only imagine how frustrated the CPS workers must have been - the FLDS caused this "round-up" they gave CPS no other choice. How many of you would work so hard to keep a rapist IN your community?
These children were NOT taken at gunpoint - I'm glad that is obvious to everyone now.
Funny how the blame is being shifted to the Governor. I wonder if the FLDS and their supports will ever admit that the blame lies squarely on the FLDS shoulders?
Many credible calls for help were made - maybe a hoax call was made too - but calls for help should be answered.
Law Enforcement following orders to protect children is FAR better than FLDS member following orders to protect rapists.
They hid JEffs from the FBI, they can hide anyone.
Shocked - I'm shocked that these parents would protect their MEN over their children. They did everything they could to make it as difficult as possible for CPS. They held them up at the gate for hours, they refused to let them see the girls, they made the girls get up in the middle of the night. I can only imagine how frustrated the CPS workers must have been - the FLDS caused this "round-up" they gave CPS no other choice. How many of you would work so hard to keep a rapist IN your community?
These children were NOT taken at gunpoint - I'm glad that is obvious to everyone now.
Funny how the blame is being shifted to the Governor. I wonder if the FLDS and their supports will ever admit that the blame lies squarely on the FLDS shoulders?
Many credible calls for help were made - maybe a hoax call was made too - but calls for help should be answered.
Law Enforcement following orders to protect children is FAR better than FLDS member following orders to protect rapists.
They hid JEffs from the FBI, they can hide anyone.
zxcvbnm | 9:31 a.m. June 4, 2008
Yep Dale Barlow on the phone. The alleged abuser of "Sarah" and the father of the child Sarah.
With a man accused of fathering a child with a 16 year old that hasn't been in Texas for 30 years you would think that Law enforcement could figure out the mechanics of the sex act and realize that several hundred miles makes the act "virtual" at best. Even three feet isn't close enough to father a child.....geeze.
"Good faith" doesn't fly given the timing and distance involved.....do the math.
Whoops I forgot 14=37.....and blind justice remains blind as well as math challanged, even "good faith" doesn't add up.
FLDS are out in numbers | 9:46 a.m. June 4, 2008
Reading from the comments here is looks like the FLDS are all writing in.
Identify yourselves!
no accountability | 9:48 a.m. June 4, 2008
So begins the lack of any accountability for the latest disaster. Doran was a
major player here, he's vowed to drive this group out of his county. He is
liable and responsible, sorry Doran - backtraker, the buck stops somewhere and
your right in line.
Demand government accountability, Demand accountability. Oust Doran. He's just one twig on the way up the criminal ladder.
Demand government accountability, Demand accountability. Oust Doran. He's just one twig on the way up the criminal ladder.
demand accountability | 9:54 a.m. June 4, 2008
Sorry backtracker Doran.
We demand accountability. You are liable, have some small amount of guts. This is shameful, even for you.
We demand accountability. You are liable, have some small amount of guts. This is shameful, even for you.
To Gail 5:41 | 9:55 a.m. June 4, 2008
Are you really that naive? You can't even have a good faith open and honest
discussion with an officer who pulls you over for a traffic infraction. He will
use that conversation against you and plunder the fruit of your labor over a
technicality.
Law enforcement is not the same as it was decades ago when they were your neighbor and friend serving and protecting. Their new motto is "It's us against them," meaning you. Everyone is a possible suspect. Everyone has the propensity to commit a crime. For the most part their personality is cold and void of any human emotion. In other words you are guilty or soon will be guilty of something until proven otherwise.
Their forgotten oath is to protect and defend the inalienable rights guaranteed by the Constitution not to infringe upon them in the name of some government authority. The Constitution is the authority (specifically the Bill of Rights) not the CPS, the judge, the sheriff or any other person. They are subject to the Constitution not the other way around.
Law enforcement is not the same as it was decades ago when they were your neighbor and friend serving and protecting. Their new motto is "It's us against them," meaning you. Everyone is a possible suspect. Everyone has the propensity to commit a crime. For the most part their personality is cold and void of any human emotion. In other words you are guilty or soon will be guilty of something until proven otherwise.
Their forgotten oath is to protect and defend the inalienable rights guaranteed by the Constitution not to infringe upon them in the name of some government authority. The Constitution is the authority (specifically the Bill of Rights) not the CPS, the judge, the sheriff or any other person. They are subject to the Constitution not the other way around.
poor wyogirl | 9:56 a.m. June 4, 2008
I suspect you are ex FLDS with an ax to grind. You are entitled to your opinion,
but it is beginning to get threadbare. If the tables were turned and you were
receiving CPS "kindness", I strongly suspect yopur opinion would
alter.
SS | 9:58 a.m. June 4, 2008
Sounds like what the SS police said during the war crimes trial.. "I was
only following orders"
Marxism is alive and well.. Welcome US SS..
Marxism is alive and well.. Welcome US SS..
Granny | 10:03 a.m. June 4, 2008
Maybe some of the aftermath of the raid could have been avoided if, instead of
lying and denying there was a Sara(h) Barlow at the compound, the FLDS had
simply produced the Sara(h)s for LE to interview.
Matthew | 10:04 a.m. June 4, 2008
I noticed that he is still claiming that there were all these pregnant
under-aged girls. So far as I can tell that has been shown to be untrue. Just
36 year-old women that CPS thought were under-aged. What an incredible joke.
Come on Deseret News, when someone you interview makes outrageous claims, call them on it. Ask harder questions and keep digging when they dodge an answer.
I can't wait until the DNA results come back that everyone is so interrelated to everyone else that they can't make heads nor tails of the results. Or maybe they will claim that one of those kids really has 4 dads and 8 mothers!
Come on Deseret News, when someone you interview makes outrageous claims, call them on it. Ask harder questions and keep digging when they dodge an answer.
I can't wait until the DNA results come back that everyone is so interrelated to everyone else that they can't make heads nor tails of the results. Or maybe they will claim that one of those kids really has 4 dads and 8 mothers!
just me | 10:21 a.m. June 4, 2008
Funny how everyone wants the FLDS to identify themselves. Then when a person
with views that somewhat sympathize with the FLDS claims to not be FLDS he/she
is basically called a liar or worse. But that's because no one but the
FLDS would ever side with their evil/immoral practices (according to Carolyn and
Flora) right? By the way, not FLDS.
YAWN | 10:24 a.m. June 4, 2008
Maybe David Shurtleff should have done his job in the first place and then
things wouldnt be so out of control now. Atleast Texas attempted to save those
kids.
David | 10:24 a.m. June 4, 2008
If CPS knocked on your door, would you really show them in especially if you
experienced Short Creek? If you gladly showed them in, I would think you an
entire suit short in a deck. CPS has had prior issues that required visits to
the Supreme Court of Texas for overstepping. Yes, that was plural and that was
prior to the FLDS case. If you actually believe that the innocent have nothing
to hide, I would suggest you read about the Innocence Project.
Janet | 10:26 a.m. June 4, 2008
I forgive Sheriff Doran and leave judgement to God.
Raymond Takashi Swenson | 10:32 a.m. June 4, 2008
The Deseret News reported weeks ago that the 35 year old woman in Colorado made
the phone calls to Texas as well as other calls to authorities in Colorado and
to anti-polygamy suport groups using the same name, "Sarah", and
story. Her phone records showed she made the calls. If the woman's
shelter in Texas lacked caller ID (which seems a very odd situation for an
organization that is supposedly dealing with woman at risk on a daily basis),
the Texas Rangers could still get the origin phone number from the phone company
and determine the call was coming from Colorado, not Texas. The notion that
they were still looking for the caller at the ranch over a week later is a
simple lie. My forecast is that Texas law enforcement will be shown to have
acted in bad faith when they asked for the warrant, and that all evidence that
they collected based on the warrant will be thrown out of any criminal trial,
which has to have higher standards than the circus run by Judge Walther.
So when is Texas going to prosecute the boyfriends of pregnant teens in Houston and San Antonio?
So when is Texas going to prosecute the boyfriends of pregnant teens in Houston and San Antonio?
David | 10:35 a.m. June 4, 2008
I am not FLDS, but an agnostic. I believe this action was based on an attempt
to take a group that was universally despised and get rid of them. But,
dreadful people like me, believe the Constitution a beautiful document that
should be followed and protected, even when we don't like the people it
protects.
Two higher level courts ruled there was no evidence for the removal of ALL children. The CPS could have removed ALL the men. CPS didn't remove the men, but chose the option most damaging to the family and more importantly more damaging and even dangerous for the children. It would not be even remotely surprising if we worsened their fundamentalism. Look at the dress of the women and children before the Short Creek raid. It was all time frame appropriate. It wasn't until AFTER the raid that their style of clothing because more extreme. This is a typical human response.
In all of my discussion, I have yet to meet anyone that understands the law, that agrees with the YFZ raid. As for me, I almost exclusively associate with attorneys. Your belief regarding posters being FLDS is entirely wrong based on my experience.
Two higher level courts ruled there was no evidence for the removal of ALL children. The CPS could have removed ALL the men. CPS didn't remove the men, but chose the option most damaging to the family and more importantly more damaging and even dangerous for the children. It would not be even remotely surprising if we worsened their fundamentalism. Look at the dress of the women and children before the Short Creek raid. It was all time frame appropriate. It wasn't until AFTER the raid that their style of clothing because more extreme. This is a typical human response.
In all of my discussion, I have yet to meet anyone that understands the law, that agrees with the YFZ raid. As for me, I almost exclusively associate with attorneys. Your belief regarding posters being FLDS is entirely wrong based on my experience.
Emma | 10:37 a.m. June 4, 2008
I have but one question: If Flora and Carolyn Jessop were such reliable
witnesses that should be trusted, why weren't they used as expert
witnesses? It makes me think that even CPS and all those involved know them
unreliable or bad witnesses. If they can't trust them, why should I?
Gray Wolf | 10:44 a.m. June 4, 2008
To: FLDS are out in numbers | 9:46 a.m. June 4, 2008
Just so everyone knows:
Why "Gray Wolf"?
As a child in the Rockies I often recall the howling of the wolves. Sometimes I thought the noise frightening, other times I thought of the animal as being quite powerful and mystical. It has always been an animal name that I easily remember.
Gray Wolf is not FLDS.
Gray Wolf can relate to the FLDS on many levels.
Gray Wolf knows something of the history of the LDS and FLDS.
I always wondered about polygamy, indeed, from its very beginning in the LDS Church. Now I know the fruits are questionable.
Just so everyone knows:
Why "Gray Wolf"?
As a child in the Rockies I often recall the howling of the wolves. Sometimes I thought the noise frightening, other times I thought of the animal as being quite powerful and mystical. It has always been an animal name that I easily remember.
Gray Wolf is not FLDS.
Gray Wolf can relate to the FLDS on many levels.
Gray Wolf knows something of the history of the LDS and FLDS.
I always wondered about polygamy, indeed, from its very beginning in the LDS Church. Now I know the fruits are questionable.
realitycheck | 10:46 a.m. June 4, 2008
this place was/is a prison camp for children. Their civil rights are being
violated on a daily basis, and they are having their futures stolen. It's
a sad day in Texas that this will continue.
It's too bad the future of these children consist of milking cows and watering flowers. They could do great things out in the real world.
America is the land of opportunity, yet the parents of these children do everything in their power to ensure the children will never get to experience it. That's not freedom - that's slavery.
It's too bad the future of these children consist of milking cows and watering flowers. They could do great things out in the real world.
America is the land of opportunity, yet the parents of these children do everything in their power to ensure the children will never get to experience it. That's not freedom - that's slavery.
David | 10:53 a.m. June 4, 2008
It is without question these children were put in a "prison camp for
children." I also agree that it is sad that this has been allowed to
continue especially given that there was no legal justification for such an
action in the first place.
Odd that you went from understanding that children were prisoners to writing about them doing chores typical of many children across the U.S. Those are real world activities and you would starve without such. Do you despise all farmers or just FLDS farmers?
You then seemed to forget that the FLDS children were better educated than their TX counterparts. You might also want to look up the definition of slavery as you seemed grossly confused.
Odd that you went from understanding that children were prisoners to writing about them doing chores typical of many children across the U.S. Those are real world activities and you would starve without such. Do you despise all farmers or just FLDS farmers?
You then seemed to forget that the FLDS children were better educated than their TX counterparts. You might also want to look up the definition of slavery as you seemed grossly confused.
same old story | 10:54 a.m. June 4, 2008
Why does this remind me of the trial of Adolph Eichman ?
Oh I was just following orders that I thought were lawful.
It is not my fault they were Jewish.
What kind of dim wit does someone need to be to understand that arresting hundreds of people without a warrant is WRONG ?
It was HIS responsibility to verify that the "distress call from Sarah" came from inside the ranch. Sheriffs do have access to phone records and the call was made long before that raid so there was plenty of time to verify it.
Why didn't he find it odd that someone who was fearing for her life would call a hotline and blabber for hours instead of calling 911 ?
Oh I was just following orders that I thought were lawful.
It is not my fault they were Jewish.
What kind of dim wit does someone need to be to understand that arresting hundreds of people without a warrant is WRONG ?
It was HIS responsibility to verify that the "distress call from Sarah" came from inside the ranch. Sheriffs do have access to phone records and the call was made long before that raid so there was plenty of time to verify it.
Why didn't he find it odd that someone who was fearing for her life would call a hotline and blabber for hours instead of calling 911 ?
TO....zxcvbmn | 10:54 a.m. June 4, 2008
How do you know Dale Barlow was not in Texas?...where you with him 7/24 over the
years up untill April 3, 2008? Did he check in with his PO, in person every
day?...or did he just call in...so his PO would think he was where he was
suppose to be? There is a reason the investigation into Dale Barlow's
whereabouts is still on going !
Justthefactsmaam | 11:04 a.m. June 4, 2008
In other words,
TOOK YOU FIVE DAYS TO SAVE THE 'DAMSEL IN DISTRESS'!
EVEN IF WE BELIEVE YOU, WE SHOULD FIRE YOU FOR TAKING 5 DAYS TO RESPOND TO AN ALLEGED CRIME VICTIM!
So if we believe you, you're fired
If we don't believe you, you're fired.
No matter how you slice it, you're fired!
TOOK YOU FIVE DAYS TO SAVE THE 'DAMSEL IN DISTRESS'!
EVEN IF WE BELIEVE YOU, WE SHOULD FIRE YOU FOR TAKING 5 DAYS TO RESPOND TO AN ALLEGED CRIME VICTIM!
So if we believe you, you're fired
If we don't believe you, you're fired.
No matter how you slice it, you're fired!
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Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran cultivated a relationship with FLDS in past.
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When will the civil law suits against Texas start? I'm no fan of the FLDS or what they were *accused* of, but I do have a respect for people's rights and demand government be held accountable when those rights are violated.
The CPS thugs and many of those involved should do time for this crime.