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FLDS to quit underage marriages
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To reality check | 4:51 p.m. June 3, 2008
So only FLDS white girls will have futures stolen? Ah, I get it now Hispanic
girls have no futures so they don't count. Gotcha
To Props | 5:07 p.m. June 3, 2008
Keep up with the times:
*There was no welfare fraud in TX with 0 residents receiving aid.
*39 year old should not be considered legal minors and forced to prove such in court. This also applies to 29 year olds and other legal adults that provided drivers license and birth certificates.
*"Lost boys" are actually adults that failed to comply with house rules including smoking. I wouldn't allow it either.
*Every 10 hours a 14 year old gets pregnant in Texas, but according to RealityCheck their future isn't stolen since they aren't FLDS and only white girls are of value.
*There was no welfare fraud in TX with 0 residents receiving aid.
*39 year old should not be considered legal minors and forced to prove such in court. This also applies to 29 year olds and other legal adults that provided drivers license and birth certificates.
*"Lost boys" are actually adults that failed to comply with house rules including smoking. I wouldn't allow it either.
*Every 10 hours a 14 year old gets pregnant in Texas, but according to RealityCheck their future isn't stolen since they aren't FLDS and only white girls are of value.
Comments continue below
Bot | 5:10 p.m. June 3, 2008
It appears there may be one girl who conceived prior to age 16. That is the
only charge that might stick. Was it worth uprooting 436 children and their
parents to find those one or two girls? There's no welfare fraud (check
the county records). They paid more than their share of real estate tax, and
the FLDS home-school their children.
Tell me where the state's interests are being compromised. Prosecute the men who fathered children from girls 15 or less, and let the others return to the ranch where the children were loved, educated, and had extended family relationships.
If the state really wants to stop child abuse, the CPS should concentrate on inner-city Dallas or Houston girls who conceived at age 15 or less. Jail the twenty-something men who impregnated them and attach their wages so the welfare queens can be self-supporting (like the FLDS). Then prosecute the Planned Parenthood offices which refuse to identify the adult fathers who impregnate girls 15 or less. Those offices should be closed down.
Tell me where the state's interests are being compromised. Prosecute the men who fathered children from girls 15 or less, and let the others return to the ranch where the children were loved, educated, and had extended family relationships.
If the state really wants to stop child abuse, the CPS should concentrate on inner-city Dallas or Houston girls who conceived at age 15 or less. Jail the twenty-something men who impregnated them and attach their wages so the welfare queens can be self-supporting (like the FLDS). Then prosecute the Planned Parenthood offices which refuse to identify the adult fathers who impregnate girls 15 or less. Those offices should be closed down.
For reality check | 5:20 p.m. June 3, 2008
The institution that steals more future from US children than any other is
called High School.
Only a minority of the students will ever graduate from college yet the serious cirruculm is directed toward college prep.
Utah is much better than other states in providing some OPTIONAL HS vocational training. If you were a student in Chicago's inner city you would not fare so well.
These "strange" FLDS people teach their children how to survive in a direct relation to the environment. We teach our children to get a job and pay someone else to help them survive(like Walmart). While we don't want to return to this primitive level, the FLDS would fare better than we in a major disruption of shipping due to war or natural disaster such as earthquakes.
It should be a graduation requirement of High School to have an employable skill instead of "would you like fries with that?"
Even most college students will have to work their way through.
Only a minority of the students will ever graduate from college yet the serious cirruculm is directed toward college prep.
Utah is much better than other states in providing some OPTIONAL HS vocational training. If you were a student in Chicago's inner city you would not fare so well.
These "strange" FLDS people teach their children how to survive in a direct relation to the environment. We teach our children to get a job and pay someone else to help them survive(like Walmart). While we don't want to return to this primitive level, the FLDS would fare better than we in a major disruption of shipping due to war or natural disaster such as earthquakes.
It should be a graduation requirement of High School to have an employable skill instead of "would you like fries with that?"
Even most college students will have to work their way through.
wyogirl | 5:30 p.m. June 3, 2008
Thanks for the NPR tip Moniker - I'll look it up and have a listen.
Someone earlier posted that we should offer solutions - so I've been thinking.
Even though I would never enter a polygamous relationship I wouldn't care if other people did IF:
The girls and boys are all raised to adulthood, finish high school and are sent to college. If a child rebells ie. smokes, they are still supported - even if it is from a distance at military school - but the parents support that child financially until he/she is 21. It would be nice if they wouldn't shun them for life too. So, the kids go to college and become whatever they want. Or, if they are not the college type, they get a job, or whatever. They meet their spouse on their own and decide for themselves who to marry. If a woman enters a polygamous relationship as wife 2,3,4 etc. she still has rights (FLDS could push for rights - another topic) she can divorce and would be entitled to alimony/child support/equal share of property. Polygamist would support their children and wives with their own money - no welfare or medicaid. Good?
Someone earlier posted that we should offer solutions - so I've been thinking.
Even though I would never enter a polygamous relationship I wouldn't care if other people did IF:
The girls and boys are all raised to adulthood, finish high school and are sent to college. If a child rebells ie. smokes, they are still supported - even if it is from a distance at military school - but the parents support that child financially until he/she is 21. It would be nice if they wouldn't shun them for life too. So, the kids go to college and become whatever they want. Or, if they are not the college type, they get a job, or whatever. They meet their spouse on their own and decide for themselves who to marry. If a woman enters a polygamous relationship as wife 2,3,4 etc. she still has rights (FLDS could push for rights - another topic) she can divorce and would be entitled to alimony/child support/equal share of property. Polygamist would support their children and wives with their own money - no welfare or medicaid. Good?
Anonymous | 5:33 p.m. June 3, 2008
Some cultures call sex with pre-teens and early teens an abomination.
Other cultures view it as an order from God.
Somebody is clearly in the dark on this.
re: Problem | 5:47 p.m. June 3, 2008
>>If they were to crack down on them for that they would have to lock up
1/2 of the population for sleeping around. Same idea.<<
Polygamy is not really the problem here - because as a society we tolerate all sorts of cohabitational weirdness as long as it involves consenting adults.
I would like to see a new law that would get to the heart of the abuse both here and in other cult-like settings: It should be illegal to bring "undue" marriage pressure to bear on anyone for ones own social or financial gain. That's the idea anyway. The specifics could use more work. The idea is that the "prophet" derives a great deal of social and financial benefit out of controlling who marries who. This is highly toxic to any community - and it is also a common element of cults.
The "prophet" could make recommendations - like any matchmaker - but could be sued or prosecuted if it could be shown that he used "undue pressure" to get his way. That pressure could include excommunication threats against bride or groom or their family members, withholding of housing or other benefits in retaliation for refusal, etc.
Polygamy is not really the problem here - because as a society we tolerate all sorts of cohabitational weirdness as long as it involves consenting adults.
I would like to see a new law that would get to the heart of the abuse both here and in other cult-like settings: It should be illegal to bring "undue" marriage pressure to bear on anyone for ones own social or financial gain. That's the idea anyway. The specifics could use more work. The idea is that the "prophet" derives a great deal of social and financial benefit out of controlling who marries who. This is highly toxic to any community - and it is also a common element of cults.
The "prophet" could make recommendations - like any matchmaker - but could be sued or prosecuted if it could be shown that he used "undue pressure" to get his way. That pressure could include excommunication threats against bride or groom or their family members, withholding of housing or other benefits in retaliation for refusal, etc.
realitycheck | 5:48 p.m. June 3, 2008
re - To realitycheck 4:51pm
who said anything about white girls? are you prejudiced? what makes you think Hispanic girls have no future? They are as capable as anyone else.
At least their parents don't hide them from the world, and they TRY to help them have a good future.
you on drugs? or can't read?
who said anything about white girls? are you prejudiced? what makes you think Hispanic girls have no future? They are as capable as anyone else.
At least their parents don't hide them from the world, and they TRY to help them have a good future.
you on drugs? or can't read?
realitycheck | 6:01 p.m. June 3, 2008
a girl getting pregnant has nothing to do with losing their future. And I never
mentioned white girls - only you did (twice, as two different names.)
you must be FLDS - lots of practice twisting words. Fortunately, the intelligent folks here see right through it.
The childrens futures are stolen because the parents hide the children from the world and because the parents make the children afraid of the world, instead of teaching them how to exist in it, and giving them the tools to excel in it.
Thats stealing their future, and has nothing to do with race. You are perhaps against persons of color? walks like FLDS, talks like FLDS - wow, perhaps you are FLDS...
you must be FLDS - lots of practice twisting words. Fortunately, the intelligent folks here see right through it.
The childrens futures are stolen because the parents hide the children from the world and because the parents make the children afraid of the world, instead of teaching them how to exist in it, and giving them the tools to excel in it.
Thats stealing their future, and has nothing to do with race. You are perhaps against persons of color? walks like FLDS, talks like FLDS - wow, perhaps you are FLDS...
Blind facts | 6:28 p.m. June 3, 2008
The Problem with FLDS is that they have NO respect for women other than the
bedroom aspect of things. The FLDS men respect their OWN needs and they believe
women were placed upon the earth for their amusement and to abused them sexually
at their own will. Then to top everything off, they use God for their filthy
dirty work. They brain wash the women into thinking this is all a revelation
from God and that this is how GOD would have everything.And of course, they are
all raised to believe this. The FLDS women have NO rights whatsoever! The FLDS
men teach them they are damned if they don't do as the men say.... SICK,
SICK, SICK!
To blind facts | 6:35 p.m. June 3, 2008
The problem is that all your information is blind and not based on facts.
Fortunately we have the court system to help you and CPS.
Blind Facts | 6:58 p.m. June 3, 2008
To the person 6:35 p.m. who doesn't have a posting name but seems to use
everyone else's names on these posts, and very deceitfully---You are wrong!
I have dealt with the perversions of the FLDS men and know exactly what they are
made of and what they are ALL about. You are no doubt an ignoramus to make such
a stupid statement, and no doubt a FLDS tongue waggler. Waggle away... no one
really cares!
To reality check | 7:15 p.m. June 3, 2008
Clearly I must be racist since I see this action as a racist action. I am
against inequality in the name of saving people that do not want saving and who
for the most part are ethical and principled. You stated one thing and are now
twisting your own words.
FLDS Children are not hidden, but protected. When was the last time you took your child to the Projects? How can your children have the tools to succeed if they only are exposed to white America and are "hidden" away in your suburbs? You are a hypocrite. You "protect" these girls to the tune of 7 million dollars cheering CPS which is notorious (see Billy Dan Carroll) while inner city kids go without adequate teachers because there are no state funds. Why these 5 alleged (they still aren't sure if all 5 are even) victims receive all that excessive protection while many more like them are throughout the state but not the shade you care about? The only time you might see a charge is if the girl is white and the "offender" looks like "Marcus Dixon." Actions like these are the very reason Texas requires the Innocence Project.
FLDS Children are not hidden, but protected. When was the last time you took your child to the Projects? How can your children have the tools to succeed if they only are exposed to white America and are "hidden" away in your suburbs? You are a hypocrite. You "protect" these girls to the tune of 7 million dollars cheering CPS which is notorious (see Billy Dan Carroll) while inner city kids go without adequate teachers because there are no state funds. Why these 5 alleged (they still aren't sure if all 5 are even) victims receive all that excessive protection while many more like them are throughout the state but not the shade you care about? The only time you might see a charge is if the girl is white and the "offender" looks like "Marcus Dixon." Actions like these are the very reason Texas requires the Innocence Project.
"Blind Facts" has it mostly | 7:21 p.m. June 3, 2008
Right. Of course, the FLDS would not define it this way. Religion has a way to
"sugar coat" things, but when a person gets down to the simple facts
it's sometimes hard to take. I'm sure the FLDS would say that they
have the utmost respect for womanhood (and they do in their minds). That is, if
you consider a woman's purpose in life as having children and honoring
priesthood men. It all depends on a person's view of life. And this
religion's view is quite different than most people in the USA. By these
standards, "Blind Facts" is correct. (And yes, I'm educated on
the subject from many years of studying this subject and living it in a lesser
form.)
TO realitycheck | 7:24 p.m. June 3, 2008
And no reality check, I am not FLDS, but think all religions idiotic and the
FLDS no more idiotic than any other. I do though, love the Constitution and
detest seeing one religion attempt to trample it because that group seeks to
destroy another and very different religion unpopular enough that nobody will
care...just like you. I find it sickening that so many base their words on
gossip over evidence. The fact remains that TX has a huge problem with underage
pregnancy and it is not unique to the FLDS where it is significantly lower.
Were girls likely molested? Yes, I didn't deny that but again at a rate
MUCH lower than the average population. So then, why pick on the whole group
when this action of underage pregnancy was not pervasive but an outliar? Again,
because they are different, don't want to live like us, have no need for
us, and we just don't like them. Those were the very excuses used to
target blacks. White Texas just found a new victim and you missed the boat.
Fortunately two courts did see it.
Oh and I married an attorney.
Oh and I married an attorney.
LOL! | 7:44 p.m. June 3, 2008
I'll tell you what, If all you BOZOS, who are FLDS supporters on here think
you favor the FLDS religion and need to join them, please by all means go TRY to
join them-lol! That ought to be a real hoot. However, it you have good Mormon
pioneer stalk in your veins, on both sides of your family, back to Joseph Smith,
you may have a slight chance of joining. ONLY though, if you are a very young
women. However, you will only be the biggest loser fool God ever sent to earth.
zoar | 8:18 p.m. June 3, 2008
John Lambert said:�The FLDS are not a threat to our
civilization. I have yet to see the FLDS recuit anyone in Michigan.
Personally, I doubt our civilization is threatened by small groups like the FLDS.�
That is so true, but if the FLDS take an interest in setting up colonies in Massachusetts and California, both which now allow gay marriage, then it becomes a new game. In fact, I think they should move there now. It would be interesting to see what would happen since they now allow gays to get married, how could they forbid polygamy?
Personally, I doubt our civilization is threatened by small groups like the FLDS.�
That is so true, but if the FLDS take an interest in setting up colonies in Massachusetts and California, both which now allow gay marriage, then it becomes a new game. In fact, I think they should move there now. It would be interesting to see what would happen since they now allow gays to get married, how could they forbid polygamy?
Gretzky | 8:42 p.m. June 3, 2008
yeah, whatever...and i promise to never eat ice cream again...yeah, right...good
one.
Veritas | 8:47 p.m. June 3, 2008
Sillie Willie Jessop was lying, just like his group outright lied when they
swore to Texas officials that they were building a hunting lodge on their
property. He lied the other day when he said to the cameras that they do not
perform underage marriages. (Hmm, so who was Uncle Warren smooching with in
that nauseating photo? ICK!) Also, his exact wording regarding future marriages
was, "we will not preside." Who exactly are "we" and what
does "preside" mean? Wills said EXACTLY what he needed to say to
circumvent the law and get the children back. These men are pedophiles. They
are wicked. They are a law unto themselves. They will do exactly as they want.
Don't be fooled.
The Real Ignoramus | 8:47 p.m. June 3, 2008
This might make me sound really stupid, but are the FLDS allowed to have
Internet access? With Warren Jeffs in charge, it sounded as though any kind of
pipeline to the outside world was a big no-no.
I hate to say "the end justifies the means," but the FLDS Church wasn't going to change its ways (even if it's just lip service) unless and until the state of Texas stepped in. Yes, it would have been nice if the children hadn't been ripped out of their mothers' arms, but really, who are we kidding? These people are hardcore obedient. Only an upheaval like the one this spring could make the FLDS leadership rethink old traditions.
Does Warren Jeffs have much of a future as the FLDS Church's prophet? He's confessed to some pretty disgusting stuff. I'd be really surprised if they let him back in the door... but stranger things have happened.
When the YFZ Ranch was invaded, including its temple, all I could think was, "I wonder how many armed guards my temple has."
I hate to say "the end justifies the means," but the FLDS Church wasn't going to change its ways (even if it's just lip service) unless and until the state of Texas stepped in. Yes, it would have been nice if the children hadn't been ripped out of their mothers' arms, but really, who are we kidding? These people are hardcore obedient. Only an upheaval like the one this spring could make the FLDS leadership rethink old traditions.
Does Warren Jeffs have much of a future as the FLDS Church's prophet? He's confessed to some pretty disgusting stuff. I'd be really surprised if they let him back in the door... but stranger things have happened.
When the YFZ Ranch was invaded, including its temple, all I could think was, "I wonder how many armed guards my temple has."
ed | 9:09 p.m. June 3, 2008
VA Girl brings up a good point: is another group, perhaps Catholics, next on the
state hit list?
Maybe CPS will take into state custody all Catholic children who partake the eucharist because the Church teaches that it is the very body and blood of Christ! Can't have children being forced into cannibalism!
It may seem to be an absurd notion, but given the abuses and seeming contempt which these state tyrannical agencies have for the constitution it may not be as far fetched as it sounds.
Maybe CPS will take into state custody all Catholic children who partake the eucharist because the Church teaches that it is the very body and blood of Christ! Can't have children being forced into cannibalism!
It may seem to be an absurd notion, but given the abuses and seeming contempt which these state tyrannical agencies have for the constitution it may not be as far fetched as it sounds.
seeking honesty | 9:16 p.m. June 3, 2008
And we're suppose to believe anything Willie Jessop says? Count me out on
that one.
ed | 9:19 p.m. June 3, 2008
to Southern Utah Resident: And with what have you been brainwashed? Let me
examine all your beliefs one-by-one and punish you for any one of them which
does not match my own.
The constitution is in place to protect the minority, who may hold beliefs substantially different from the majority, from people like you, who would punish and persecute a minority person or population for their non-conformist views.
I say, let the FLDS alone if there is no evidence of their actually violating existing law. Let them have their beliefs, while speaking against them. It is the coward and elitist tyrant who seeks to destroy an opinion or suppress an expression of belief through persecution because he is discomforted by such belief or expression.
Absent a violation of law, there is nothing to be done.Leave them alone with their beliefs and I will leave you alone with yours.
The constitution is in place to protect the minority, who may hold beliefs substantially different from the majority, from people like you, who would punish and persecute a minority person or population for their non-conformist views.
I say, let the FLDS alone if there is no evidence of their actually violating existing law. Let them have their beliefs, while speaking against them. It is the coward and elitist tyrant who seeks to destroy an opinion or suppress an expression of belief through persecution because he is discomforted by such belief or expression.
Absent a violation of law, there is nothing to be done.Leave them alone with their beliefs and I will leave you alone with yours.
GOD-GIVEN- RIGHT | 9:28 p.m. June 3, 2008
I don't think anyone has to worry about anyone joining the FLDS, because
they DO NOT want to pollute their precious FLDS-Mormon pioneer blood with
gentile outsiders. Their is a reason for their inbreeding... Kind of like the
Royal families but even worse! The FLDS people believe they are a superior
people above all others races and people. And this gives them the right to
impregnate their own nieces and half sisters. It's their GOD GIVEN
RIGHT.
FROM-Someone from the inside--but cast out!
FROM-Someone from the inside--but cast out!
Southern Utah Resident | 9:37 p.m. June 3, 2008
A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS....
WARREN JEFFS FRENCH KISSING THE 12 YEAR OLD.... SAYS IT ALL ABOUT THE FLDS!
YOU SPEAK OF THE CONSTITUTION, YET YOU ARE VERY SELECTIVE ABOUT WHICH LAWS YOU WISH TO ABIDE BY.
WARREN JEFFS FRENCH KISSING THE 12 YEAR OLD.... SAYS IT ALL ABOUT THE FLDS!
YOU SPEAK OF THE CONSTITUTION, YET YOU ARE VERY SELECTIVE ABOUT WHICH LAWS YOU WISH TO ABIDE BY.
ed | 9:43 p.m. June 3, 2008
Anonymous, in summation:
WHEREAS, on October 27, 1838, the Governor of the State of Missouri, Lilburn W. Boggs, signed an order calling for the extermination or expulsion of Mormons from the State of Missouri; and...
WHEREAS, Governor Boggs' order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and
Now, THEREFORE, I, CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Governor of the State of Missouri...
Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering which was caused by the 1838 order, I hereby rescind Executive Order Number 44, dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs.
In witness I have hereunto set my hand and caused to be affixed the great seal of the State of Missouri, in the city of Jefferson, on this 25 day of June, 1976.
(Signed) Christopher S. Bond, Governor.
The reason that Texas failed with the FLDS persecution is because they acted just as Missouri did in 1838. Only it didn't take over a century for Texas to admit the wrongs done the FLDS, as it did Missouri to Mormons.
WHEREAS, on October 27, 1838, the Governor of the State of Missouri, Lilburn W. Boggs, signed an order calling for the extermination or expulsion of Mormons from the State of Missouri; and...
WHEREAS, Governor Boggs' order clearly contravened the rights to life, liberty, property and religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, as well as the Constitution of the State of Missouri; and
Now, THEREFORE, I, CHRISTOPHER S. BOND, Governor of the State of Missouri...
Expressing on behalf of all Missourians our deep regret for the injustice and undue suffering which was caused by the 1838 order, I hereby rescind Executive Order Number 44, dated October 27, 1838, issued by Governor W. Boggs.
In witness I have hereunto set my hand and caused to be affixed the great seal of the State of Missouri, in the city of Jefferson, on this 25 day of June, 1976.
(Signed) Christopher S. Bond, Governor.
The reason that Texas failed with the FLDS persecution is because they acted just as Missouri did in 1838. Only it didn't take over a century for Texas to admit the wrongs done the FLDS, as it did Missouri to Mormons.
ed | 9:55 p.m. June 3, 2008
To Roscoe,you wrote, "Some people are saying 'it could be you
next.' That's ridiculous."
It is ridiculous!? Why is it ridiculous?
Yours is the kind of statement which seems to come from one who closes his eyes and refuses to recognize this fact...the state has acted in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens in the past and right before your very eyes in the present. Religious and ethnic groups in these very united states have been victims of intolerance, persecution, and injustice not just in the past, but right here and now!
Yet, in the face of a history of past and actual present state-sponsored bigotry and persecution of a minority you dare to say it couldn't happen to some other person or group who hold an unpopular and minority belief? Now, that is truly ridiculous!
It is ridiculous!? Why is it ridiculous?
Yours is the kind of statement which seems to come from one who closes his eyes and refuses to recognize this fact...the state has acted in violation of the constitutional rights of citizens in the past and right before your very eyes in the present. Religious and ethnic groups in these very united states have been victims of intolerance, persecution, and injustice not just in the past, but right here and now!
Yet, in the face of a history of past and actual present state-sponsored bigotry and persecution of a minority you dare to say it couldn't happen to some other person or group who hold an unpopular and minority belief? Now, that is truly ridiculous!
ed | 10:09 p.m. June 3, 2008
to St. George Resident: You ask, "How can they look at the picture of
Warren Jeffs molesting a young girl, then let these children go back to their
parents when they know that their parents follow every example given to them by
Jeffs."
The reason is that under our laws and constitution, a picture of Jeffs allegedly molesting a 12 year old girl certainly opens Jeffs himself up to investigation and prosecution (he had already been convicted in criminal court in one state and is to be tried in another) but a picture of Jeffs kissing the girl does not make every man in the FLDS community criminally liable for Jeffs' actions.
Next, the state does not know that FLDS parents follow "every example given them by Jeffs." And even if the state actually believes this to be the case, absent evidence of actual abuse, the state cannot act in the way you would like it to.
I find your notion of guilt by association to be very troubling.
You may believe that young girls will be raped, but you certainly do not know that.
The reason is that under our laws and constitution, a picture of Jeffs allegedly molesting a 12 year old girl certainly opens Jeffs himself up to investigation and prosecution (he had already been convicted in criminal court in one state and is to be tried in another) but a picture of Jeffs kissing the girl does not make every man in the FLDS community criminally liable for Jeffs' actions.
Next, the state does not know that FLDS parents follow "every example given them by Jeffs." And even if the state actually believes this to be the case, absent evidence of actual abuse, the state cannot act in the way you would like it to.
I find your notion of guilt by association to be very troubling.
You may believe that young girls will be raped, but you certainly do not know that.
Lynn | 10:30 p.m. June 3, 2008
from Anonymous:"I meant that they had the right to do what was necessary to
end a pernicious way of life that threatened their very existence. It was not
genocide. It was an attempt to end the sort of practices that we see in FLDS
colonies. I will never understand the Mormon persecution complex."
I will tell you why we have what you call a "Mormon persecution complex"! It's from bigots like you that think Missouri was right, even in signing a declaration of Extermination, which, by the way, wasn't revoked until well into the 20th century, I think, 1976. That means it was still on the books, and Mormons were still fair game for some trigger-happy idiot who hated Mormons. It's also from bigots like you that preach anti-Mormonism and teach it in their church classes, as I know they do here in the Southern Bible Belt. It's because ignorant people like you attack us every chance you get, on the Internet and elsewhere. It's because of protesters at our Conferences, outside our Temples, and even at Mormon military funerals.
Now do you understand? Have I made myself clear?
I will tell you why we have what you call a "Mormon persecution complex"! It's from bigots like you that think Missouri was right, even in signing a declaration of Extermination, which, by the way, wasn't revoked until well into the 20th century, I think, 1976. That means it was still on the books, and Mormons were still fair game for some trigger-happy idiot who hated Mormons. It's also from bigots like you that preach anti-Mormonism and teach it in their church classes, as I know they do here in the Southern Bible Belt. It's because ignorant people like you attack us every chance you get, on the Internet and elsewhere. It's because of protesters at our Conferences, outside our Temples, and even at Mormon military funerals.
Now do you understand? Have I made myself clear?
K | 10:32 p.m. June 3, 2008
So will they all travel to a state that allows a 14 year old to get married with
parental permission.
All states should be 18. For marriage and consexual sex.
All states should be 18. For marriage and consexual sex.
Two wrongs don't make a | 10:34 p.m. June 3, 2008
Right! No matter what ratio the state of Texas (or any state has) of teen
pregancy problems does not excuse others! Teens in the general population of
the USA can get access to help for their problems, but not the FLDS girls
(unless they escape or leave their community). There are now getting to be many
stories and books about this. Our country tries to give help to people needing
it. There have now been many that have asked for help and although not perfect,
the various departments are trying to give that help.
To Reality Check | 10:41 p.m. June 3, 2008
The reason why this group can be investigated is because their group promotes
older men "marrying" young girls! They tell these girls that they
need to do this in order to get to heaven! This is wrong on so many levels. It
doesn't make abuse in the general population right, but it does make it
worse to "brian wash" people.
John Lambert | 11:06 p.m. June 3, 2008
I am not sure why I was asked why the FLDS were picked on. I would say it
sounds like religious persecution the more I read.
John Lambert | 11:17 p.m. June 3, 2008
To Veritas:
The FLDS never swore to Texas officials they were building a hunting lodge. Also, how do you know they were not going to build a hunting lodge but then changed their plans when prosecutions picked up in Utah and Arizona.
Just because someone does different then their initially plan does not mean they are a liar.
The FLDS never swore to Texas officials they were building a hunting lodge. Also, how do you know they were not going to build a hunting lodge but then changed their plans when prosecutions picked up in Utah and Arizona.
Just because someone does different then their initially plan does not mean they are a liar.
ed | 11:46 p.m. June 3, 2008
Southern Utah Resident: "A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS....
WARREN JEFFS FRENCH KISSING THE 12 YEAR OLD.... SAYS IT ALL ABOUT THE FLDS!
YOU SPEAK OF THE CONSTITUTION, YET YOU ARE VERY SELECTIVE ABOUT WHICH LAWS YOU WISH TO ABIDE BY."
I'll assume your screaming, ranting reply is directed to me.
First, Jeffs has been tried and convicted of a crime in one state and is facing trial in another state, although the charges are not based on the picture of alleged abuse you write about. There is a reason, that you apparently cannot understand, why that when Jeffs was tried and convicted that all of the men of the FLDS community were not charged, tried, and convicted for the crimes HE committed, as well. I'd ask you to think about the reason why, but I suspect that you really don't care.
Next, I did write about the constitution, but nowhere did I discuss the actual laws in question or which laws, either specific or in general, I felt should or should not be enforced. So, how you could come to such an unfounded conclusion about my views about law enforcement is beyond me.
WARREN JEFFS FRENCH KISSING THE 12 YEAR OLD.... SAYS IT ALL ABOUT THE FLDS!
YOU SPEAK OF THE CONSTITUTION, YET YOU ARE VERY SELECTIVE ABOUT WHICH LAWS YOU WISH TO ABIDE BY."
I'll assume your screaming, ranting reply is directed to me.
First, Jeffs has been tried and convicted of a crime in one state and is facing trial in another state, although the charges are not based on the picture of alleged abuse you write about. There is a reason, that you apparently cannot understand, why that when Jeffs was tried and convicted that all of the men of the FLDS community were not charged, tried, and convicted for the crimes HE committed, as well. I'd ask you to think about the reason why, but I suspect that you really don't care.
Next, I did write about the constitution, but nowhere did I discuss the actual laws in question or which laws, either specific or in general, I felt should or should not be enforced. So, how you could come to such an unfounded conclusion about my views about law enforcement is beyond me.
ed | 12:04 a.m. June 4, 2008
To Reality Check wrote: "They tell these girls that they need to do this in
order to get to heaven! This is wrong on so many levels. It doesn't make
abuse in the general population right, but it does make it worse to "brian
wash" people."
Can I then examine your religious or non-religious views and ask the state to take your children from you if, IMO , what you teach them is "wrong on so many levels" and constitutes brain-washing?
Why should the things you teach your kids, or that any one of us teach our kids, be considered anything less than brain-washing? You believe in Christ and that He is the only way to salvation...you brainwash your kids with that belief. You don't believe in religion and teach your kids not to believe, you brainwash them. Now, I as a Christian come along and ask the state to take your kids because you are endangering their eternal souls with your errant teaching.
We do not counter opinions and beliefs which seem strange or wrong to us by sicking the state on people who hold those beliefs. We counter those beliefs with other beliefs and with reason.
Can I then examine your religious or non-religious views and ask the state to take your children from you if, IMO , what you teach them is "wrong on so many levels" and constitutes brain-washing?
Why should the things you teach your kids, or that any one of us teach our kids, be considered anything less than brain-washing? You believe in Christ and that He is the only way to salvation...you brainwash your kids with that belief. You don't believe in religion and teach your kids not to believe, you brainwash them. Now, I as a Christian come along and ask the state to take your kids because you are endangering their eternal souls with your errant teaching.
We do not counter opinions and beliefs which seem strange or wrong to us by sicking the state on people who hold those beliefs. We counter those beliefs with other beliefs and with reason.
Proms? | 12:06 a.m. June 4, 2008
Well, I guess I'm odd in today's world, but when our neighboring high
school recently had its prom, they handed a little bag to each student,
containing, among other things, a condom. Now I think the whole world is going
nuts!
And, while it's true that "teens in the general population can get help with their problems" I wonder whether abortions without parents even being informed is such great help. Or whether the liberal (I'm not talking politics here) attitude toward drug and alcohol use is really helping teens with their problems. What do you call teaching kindergarteners that the gay lifestyle is just an alternate lifestyle and perfectly normal but an attempt for one group to indoctrinate children? Are we so sure that this world we think our kids should be involved in is really safe or healthy or even sane?
And, while it's true that "teens in the general population can get help with their problems" I wonder whether abortions without parents even being informed is such great help. Or whether the liberal (I'm not talking politics here) attitude toward drug and alcohol use is really helping teens with their problems. What do you call teaching kindergarteners that the gay lifestyle is just an alternate lifestyle and perfectly normal but an attempt for one group to indoctrinate children? Are we so sure that this world we think our kids should be involved in is really safe or healthy or even sane?
we should be ashamed | 12:44 a.m. June 4, 2008
It just amazes me that society can be so accepting of abortions. Parents forcing
there daughters to kill an unborn child. Who even seems to keep track, a school
nurse can take them and not even tell the parent. But if you grow up in a
society where you "get married" or union or what ever at 16 and have
the child and raise it is rape. Then it is aweful for society. That seems
hypocritical to me.
How many parents think it is so cute that their teenager is in a relationship and they know they are sleeping together. Just as long as they use protection. That is alright?
It seems to make it worse if it is connected to a religious belief. Then people get so outraged that they want them wiped off the face of the earth.
Government can not save us from ourselves. Political Correctness will not save us either.
Wrong is wrong no matter if it is legal.
How about living a higher LAW
Morality seems to be old fashioned. Religion seems to be out dated. But those 10 little commandments might be the key to a solid individual, community, Nation, and world.
How many parents think it is so cute that their teenager is in a relationship and they know they are sleeping together. Just as long as they use protection. That is alright?
It seems to make it worse if it is connected to a religious belief. Then people get so outraged that they want them wiped off the face of the earth.
Government can not save us from ourselves. Political Correctness will not save us either.
Wrong is wrong no matter if it is legal.
How about living a higher LAW
Morality seems to be old fashioned. Religion seems to be out dated. But those 10 little commandments might be the key to a solid individual, community, Nation, and world.
Sharon | 9:24 a.m. June 4, 2008
J-Man......do you think Merrill Jessop or any of the other old geezers will come
out of hiding now ? Personally, I dont think they will.
Mike LV | 11:35 a.m. June 4, 2008
Not in favor of the FLDS actions and done right some men would go to prison. God
bless and protect the little children, but, at least this time the Texas nuts
(authorities) didn't kill anyone in their zeal to exterminate those who are
different.
Don't believe them! | 11:41 a.m. June 4, 2008
You can't believe these monsters as far as you can throw them! As soon as
their sexual appetities have ceased the be whetted enough, they'll be after
the 14 year-olds again!
I don't agree.... | 1:36 p.m. June 4, 2008
I think this is the beginning of a realization...(not revelation, lol). But I
think now it's getting to be so much "out in the open" that these
people will think twice (hope three times) before doing these things again.
As far as those that compare gay marriage to this: It is not the same at all! Gay marriage is more like marriage between a man and a woman involving TWO people (not multiples or underage). The issues involved are quite different.
As far as those that compare gay marriage to this: It is not the same at all! Gay marriage is more like marriage between a man and a woman involving TWO people (not multiples or underage). The issues involved are quite different.
G | 12:04 p.m. June 5, 2008
"As far as those that compare gay marriage to this: It is not the same at
all! Gay marriage is more like marriage between a man and a woman involving TWO
people (not multiples or underage). The issues involved are quite
different."
No they're not different, and in your lifetime you will probably see legal recognition of both.
No they're not different, and in your lifetime you will probably see legal recognition of both.
Anonymous | 1:28 p.m. June 6, 2008
That is so smart, make polygamy legal. Why didn't congress think of that?
What, they did? Over a hundred years ago. The polygamists get around the law by
not marrying the women civily. You could make laws to break polygamy, but then
you would have to arrest every person that commits adultry. The prisons would
then be full of congressmen and ex-presidents.
Anonymous | 1:47 p.m. June 6, 2008
The FLDS had their rights trampled on. I do not agree with polygamy but they
should sue Texas with a vengance so this atrocity and the Branch Davidians
tragedy will never happen in the future. Whether we agree with them or not,
freedom of religion is gauranteed in the Constitution. Congress shall pass no
laws with regard to religion.
realitycheck | 2:40 p.m. June 6, 2008
I for one am glad Texas did what they did. Most of the mothers and children
haven't gone back to that compound, and with luck they will stay away
forever. Then maybe their kids can have a future of their own choosing, instead
of being swept up into the cult environment where everyone's a clone.
Problem is FLDS doesn't want to lose any followers. If ANY of theri people realize there's an actual world outside, they may be in big trouble as far as maintaining a decent population. (But I gues they only need 2 and they can just pump out the babies for awhile...)
Problem is FLDS doesn't want to lose any followers. If ANY of theri people realize there's an actual world outside, they may be in big trouble as far as maintaining a decent population. (But I gues they only need 2 and they can just pump out the babies for awhile...)
Southern Utah Resident | 4:01 p.m. June 6, 2008
I've met many of these people and I know them to be decent and honest. I am
so grateful to see them reunited with their children.
To "Ed" | 6:48 p.m. June 7, 2008
Actually, my personal beliefs are none of what you mention, but if they were
they would not be considered a problem as long as I did not push them on others.
The problem comes in when others are made to practice certain beliefs when they
are not an adult! People can teach whatever they want in this country, but not
force. There is ample evidence that the FLDS lifestyle has been forced on these
young people. Some say they should just leave...and some do. However, many
have not place to go and they don't have the mental maturity to do it on
their own; some have needed help and they are now getting it.
To "G" | 6:55 p.m. June 7, 2008
Yeah, in my lifetime I'm seeing gay people starting to succeed at being
able to commit. But, I'm seeing polygamy going down the tube (as it
should).
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NPR had an interview today with a Texas Judge in which he accidently explained why Texas CPS and Judge Walther accepted the return of the children as long as they had access to monitor the community.
He said that the laws on Polygamy and Bigamy had been revised(on behalf of the FLDS) without drawing a distinction between the two. They now include liability for parents who approve marriage into polygamy(or any unlawful marriage) for ages 16 to short of 18(texas age of majority).
So an FLDS parent, unlike a regular parent giving permission for a monogamous marriage, cannot approve of their son or daughter between 16 and 18(short of 18) to marry into polygamy without being prosecuted for a class 2 felony.
Texas has effectively stopped new polygamous marriages beyond the age of parental consent until age of majority.
Sly old Texas, eh??