FLDS cowing under pressure. | 11:26 p.m. June 2, 2008
Thank goodness the FLDS are going to try to stop underage marriages. The government got the LDS church to give up polygamy. Maybe with a little more pressure, the FLDS will give up this evil practice.
Interloper | 11:49 p.m. June 2, 2008
A clarification on the FLDS and public assistance is needed. There is no evidence FLDS residents at the YFZ Ranch received food stamps or Aid to Families with Dependent Children. But, a majority of families in the two-state Short Creek FLDS settlement do receive food stamps, AFDC and/or Medicaid. Investigators suspect that cash assistance may be funneled from the FLDS in Short Creek to other places, such as the YFZ Ranch.

Another way the ranch may benefit from FLDS members getting benefits elsewhere is that getting the state and federal aid frees up earned cash so that it can be sent to YFZ. If families do not have to pay earned cash for food in Hilldale, for example, the FLDS leadership can pass the money that would have been used for food there on to YFZ.

In summary, the FLDS leadership often uses devious practices to enrich itself. One has to look beyond the surface when considering what is going on.
realitycheck | 11:59 p.m. June 2, 2008
This is just a Texas witch hunt.

Quakers were hanged in the Boston Common in 1660.

Why? Because the Quakers didn't fit in.

The Quakers moved away real quick after "Mary Dyer Did Hang as a Flag."

This is just a Texas witch hunt.
Comments continue below
Natalie E. Malonis | 12:12 a.m. June 3, 2008
I am the attorney who filed the Emergency Motion to Stay Enforcement of the Order.

A couple of corrections -- first, I am an attorney ad litem and not a guardian ad litem. Second, my client is not a mother. At a previous hearing I had told the Court there was a suspicion the girl was a mother because that is what had been communicated to me by law enforcement. It has since been determined by law enforcement that they have nothing to indicate she is a mother.

Natalie E. Malonis | 12:13 a.m. June 3, 2008
continued ....

The agreed orders and injunction we plan to enter tomorrow will allow the girl to return to live with her mother, and I expect her them to be reunited tomorrow. She will not remain in custody for another 30 days -- that was one option that was hastily agreed to last week among CPS, the child's mother's attorney and me because we thought we had to present an agreed order that day. As it turns out, we had the weekend to come up with a better alternative that will allow the girl to return to her mother and still keep her safe. Our special order was not filed yet when the Judge entered her order this morning, so stay was necessary to keep the status quo until I get it signed and filed in the morning.
Spinazi | 12:16 a.m. June 3, 2008
The venom exhibited by the critics of the FLDS is astonishing to me, but then I have been reading what FLDS people have to say about themselves, their lives, their children, and their beliefs and have not read the book by Flora Jessop. I haven't read "Escape" because Flora's choices to become a topless dancer and cocaine addict didn't impress me as coming from a decent person.

On the other hand, when the FLDS girls left the foster facility in Midlands today the director gave her impression of the girls, "They could cook, bake, sew, and garden. They sang to us, and they have the voices of angels. We are very sorry to see them go. It is a sad day for us." (my paraphrasing)

The lady apparently did not detect any sign that these girls 11-17 had been imprisoned, beaten, sexually abused, or forced to do anything. They were educated, helpful, and respectful, but they were all happy and relieved to be going home.

The description would not have applied to Flora Jessop at sixteen, for she had kicked out of the traces at least two years before and was smoking, drinking, using drugs and having sex.
FightingForFreedom | 12:26 a.m. June 3, 2008
Punish all offenders and law-breakers. That includes judges, county sherriffs, CPS, etc - and yes, punish those who have violated the law in underage relationships, and those who encouraged it.

The POINT IS - THE HARM that has been done to the innocent should not go unpunished - PERIOD!

PUNISH those who provided false information, and made fraudulent claims. PUNISH those who intentionally misled the public.

PUNISH the guilty.

Leave the innocent and their children alone.

Anybody disagree?
bhparkman | 1:16 a.m. June 3, 2008
So, the Short Creek Raid ended with the FLDS winning in the public domain. Now the YFZ Raid ended with the FLDS winning in both the courts and the public domain.

Texas screwed it up like Arizona screwed it up in the 1950's. And again, I and the rest of us will have to pay politically, socially, and economically for this screw up, and the polygamists will still violate the laws!

The FLDS has two victories over us!

I've had it! I've absolutely had it!
Spinazi | 2:13 a.m. June 3, 2008
bhparkman,

The lesson is that laws against polygamy are unenforceable, and it really isn't in the public interest to try to prosecute people who are minding there own business. We are constantly reminded to be tolerant of those different from outselves, but it would seem that home-grown difference is too much for people to bear.

Those who sanction the persecution of the FLDS are deeply afraid of the comparison of the FLDS with our mainstream cesspool. They want to believe that FLDS children are being abused because they know that their own children are barely afloat in a stinking cesspool.

The contrast between the default position of the mainstream and what separatists have demanded of themselves is very unsettling.
zxcvbnm | 6:21 a.m. June 3, 2008

There are now 18 inditements being considered by the grand jury.
Warrants will be issued and arrests will take place.
Will 18 warrants equate to 18 tanks? What will be the response by FLDS now that they know 18 people are being sought. How many law enforcement officers will it take to go on that ranch and how many frightened children will run.
How much of the information used to indite the 18 persons was collected as a result of the interrogation of children or from the results of the original warrant.
How many of the 18 are guilty? After this mess we can all wonder if 18 is really 18 or the CPS version of 18. We already know that CPS can't count and has terrible eyesight.
Oh brother......chapter two in this saga will never get over the bumbling reputation of the actors from chapter one.
Now the guilty may go free.....who believes CPS now.
Looks like they accomplished | 7:17 a.m. June 3, 2008
What needed to be accomplished. The world was astonished at what they heard and many wondered how could it be. I was astonished, but happy that people that brainwash and use innocence were finally getting what was coming to them. Yet, I was sad for the little children missing their mothers. And now, they are back, but those (espcially young girls) are warned. It's over...we will not stand for this anymore!
zxcvbnm | 7:49 a.m. June 3, 2008

Re Geezer: You want other cases where this has been done in the US.
The LDS history alone shows a minimum of three cases in three different states.
We have Texas and the Waco travesty..but the feds were largely responsible.
John | 7:59 a.m. June 3, 2008
I agree with the people, that say taking all the kids was BS.

But I also agree that the leaders need to be investigated. And I believe that abuses do exist there, from the top leaders of the church.

Don't know if this was mentioned or not, at least I have never heard it on the news. Is that as of 2005, Texas law ALLOWED 14yr old marriage! The age was changed in 2005, specifically because the FLDS was moving into Texas. The sponsor of the bill even admitted to the fact.
There is a big difference | 9:22 a.m. June 3, 2008
In the problems that people have in general society and the "brainwashing" that goes on in this religion. In society we have help for teenage pregnancy and so forth...these people do not. Two wrongs don't make a right and people shouldn't say things like "we have these problems in our society too, why should we care?"
Ray | 11:02 a.m. June 3, 2008
Thank you Ms Malonis for your refreshing update, especially regarding the lie you were told! I do hope the lying will just STOP sooner or later!
John Lambert | 1:34 p.m. June 3, 2008
No one has sent children back to Warren Jeffs. He is safely in jail in Arizona in the middle of a criminal case against him, and no matter how that turns out he will be sent back to prison in Utah.
Even if he gets aquitted in Arizona (which I doubt will happen, but people are innocent until proven guilty) he may also be sent to a jail in Texas to face charges there, and I can assure you that he will not be allowed to enter the YFZ ranch before 2012, barring a US Supreme Court overturning of his conviction in Utah. That is also the absolute earliest year he might be let out.
So don't worry too much about Jeffs. Also I think that the FLDS will at least live the letter of the law, if they do keep up underage marriages, they will go to places where such activities are clearly legal, most likely outside the US, so those of you who want to see them leave the USA might see your wishes granted.
John Lambert | 2:04 p.m. June 3, 2008
To Bilbo:
The only accusations of relations with a step relative I have seen that is connected with the FLDS are allegations that Warren Jeffs married some of his step-mothers. This is a practice in dynastic succession that was used by the Mongols. However, I am not sure anyone has conclusive evidence that Jeffs actually married his step mother.
There was a Pennsylvania case involving a man who seems to have proposed marriage to his step daughter, but she turned him down and his wife divorced him because she did not approve of polyugamy. However he was not FLDS.
John Lambert | 2:18 p.m. June 3, 2008
Actually there were convictions brought in Short Creek. Utah has had convictions based on polygamy upheld in the last decade.
The Lesson of Short Creek and YFZ is that you can not in the US change peoples behavior by mass governmental action. YFZ may be more devicive than Short Creek. For to many Americans this was seen as an attack on encoraging girls to be mothers and homemakers, an attack on home schooling and an attack on people who believe in following the advice of religious leaders.
This may be an unfair characterization of the battle, but to many it seems to be the first step on the march to forcing us all to accept that women should have careers, postpone child bearing, and that children should be educated in the state's school by people who believe that the only reference children should hear to Christianity is to be exposed to people ridiculing it.
It also seems odd to object to sex with 16-year-olds when Holywood people like Miss Jessica Lynn Spears are were pregnant at age 16 and books aimed at 8 to 12 year olds are basically how to guides on sex.
realitycheck | 2:40 p.m. June 3, 2008
I'm totally amused that an FLDS'er would post under the name I've been using since this started. Like I'm going to change my mind.... LOL.

Fact is, the FLDS lifestyle and teachings are abusive to children. They get bad information from their parents and guardians, minimal grade school teaching, and no freedoms. I find it to be a travesty of America. They are called the American Taliban for a reason. Once born into it, it is all they will even know.

The parents say they are "protecting" the children from the evils of the outside world, but the fact is they are propagating an isolation that is nearly impossible to break free from.

Boys can go out and work construction, but they are afraid of everyone because they have no interpersonal skills and an 8th grade education.

By the time girls realize just how intolerably confined they are, they have already had several children and are locked in to the system.

Now it's the mom saying "I had to go through it, so you will too." It never ends. I firmly believe the FLDS robs the future from children - and that in itself is morally wrong (but legal!)
realitycheck - re:John Lambert | 2:54 p.m. June 3, 2008
you, sir, are missing the entire point. It's not that we think women should have careers instead of being a homemaker. Far from it. That isn't even what the Women's Rights movement was about.

It was, and is, about people having choices. The greatest thing about America is that you can choose to do anything (legal) and you can accopmlish it with enough work (as long as you are given the tools).

The FLDS not only does not provide the tools necessary to survive in the real world, they propogate an environment that makes it 10 times as difficult. If you had someone in for a job interview and had a fossil on your desk and the topic came up, are you going to hire someone that says that dinosaurs never existed? You (and I) would think... "what an idiot - don't want him/her".

And that's like the most minor example. How can someone get a job or do college when they have never interfaced with anyone outside of their "clan"?

And stop with 16 yr olds in the city or Hollywood. We all teach our children to abstain and we hope they listen, but again IT'S THEIR CHOICE.
HOPE | 4:29 p.m. June 3, 2008
Put the children 1st above all else!
realitycheck | 4:43 p.m. June 3, 2008
I agree, Hope. If only the FLDS would stop STEALING the childrens future, and provide them tools to made informed CHOICES, then we could rest a lot easier...
John Lambert | 9:49 p.m. June 4, 2008
I am not missing the point. The testimony specifically attacked the FLDS because they taught their children that they should want to grow up and become mothers.
Also, do not tell me that stay at home Mom's are respected in this society. My mom has delt with salespeople who were stupid enough to say that since she did not leave the home on a regular basis she did not work. I have also listened to people mock the work of homemakers at city council meetings. All I know if the work of raising children is mock by liberals, and those who teach their children they should want to be mothers are considered to be instilling negative doctrines in their children. Words speak loauder than pre-arranged propaganda.
Also, if you don't want someone to steal your name use a real one. However if someone posts under my name who is not named John Lambert they are a liar and so whatever they say has no validity. On the other hand there are other John Lamberts out there who may totally disagree with me. We shall see.
To: John Lambert | 12:27 a.m. June 5, 2008
Perhaps you have experienced liberals who have mocked the work of mothers, but please refrain from making sweeping generalizations. I am a liberal woman, and though I will work outside the home even after I have children, I am very appreciative of what my own stay-at-home mother did for me as well as those who choose to do that. I don't object to anyone wanting to be a mother. My objection is when it becomes a you SHOULD want to do this, rather than this is an important role you may CHOOSE to assume or this is an important role you may CHOOSE to assume in addition to another role that is important to you. There is not a one-size-fits-all model for women. When it becomes a one-size-fits-all issue, that's when I object.
Emma | 9:28 a.m. June 6, 2008
I am a stay-at-home mom. We have three children. I have a Master's Degree in Human Resource Development (Personnel Administration.) Now that our children are almost all grown, I asked my husband if he would like me to get an outside job. He said, "Don't you think that you deserve to retire?" Ultimately the decision is up to me, lowly stay-at-home mom. It seems some men respect motherhood more than the likes of RealityCheck.

I also take it Reality hasn't been to St. George or he would have had opportunity to actually talk to "polygs" and come to the knowledge that they aren't "afraid." Ah, but bigotry is alive and well with some pretending it's "in the interest of the children" when it is actually only affirmation of self.
realitycheck | 2:31 p.m. June 6, 2008
ah - Emma - how can you get it so wrong? You have a masters - great! How many of the kids at YFZ "ranch" were/are going to get one? None.

You seem to mistake what I am saying about YFZ as applying to the entire FLDS. We're talking about the mini-prison the FLDS built in Texas, where they sent girls from out of state and were miles from the nearest cross-street. With big Willy Jessop guarding the gate. There was no escape from that. You know it and I know it.

Not that the regular FLDS is a lot better, but at least there you can just walk away. (Of course, you will have few skills and a 8th grade education and no money and you can never return...) But I left home when I was 14 so I imagine they could too.

Don't confuse YFZ with Hilldale or Colorado City. Two totally different environments. One you can escape from with a good amount of effort. The other would make a good Steve McQueen movie...
Emma | 3:31 p.m. June 6, 2008
Get it wrong? What are you basing your "facts?" You wrongly assume that no women or children are permitted education when in fact even CPS admits superior educational levels.

You call YFZ a "mini-prison", yet you miss the FLDS were justified in doing so since TX seems incapable of understanding the law with Constitutional Law completely escaping them. You also contradict yourself since you state "it's a mini prison" but then "girls come from out of state." You seem to also forget that there was an attempted second raid that was thwarted because those at the gate demanded a warrant which could not be provided. Why the desire for a second raid? Because all the children were not at the ranch at the time. It seems children do leave the ranch and that it isn't a prison. It is especially amusing to see you write that CC is so vastly different. Again, what are you basing your information? That's the problem with liars, they can't keep their stories straight.

FLDS teen | 4:17 p.m. June 6, 2008
reply to: realitycheck | 2:40 p.m. June 3, 2008

You are sadly mistaken. Either you are an ex-member or you are a very uninspired and demoralized individual. What you have posted is not true, and I will thank you to keep your poison to yourself.

Be careful of the words you speak, keep them soft and sweet, you never know from day to day which ones you'll have to eat.
FLDS teen | 4:22 p.m. June 6, 2008
Thank you John Lambert, after reading so much slime your comments are refreshing.
IsupportFLDSwomenandchildren | 7:44 p.m. Sept. 24, 2008
I read the book stolen innocence. I feel that it was outright lies. Your pregnancy rate in the USA along is higher than at the FLDS ranch. The problem is that society is raising children to be children and not adults. So when a young man and young woman wants to get married at the age of 14 or so then its horrible, aweful!! So they go and be romantic perhaps the young lady will find herself in a mother way and then have an abortion?! Why not let people get married if they want to?! You can still go to school, work, get educated etc. Frankly the dress of the FLDS women are much nicer than daisy duke shorts and high thigh boots! I would much rather see young girls not looking like whores! Leave the FLDS people alone. I am not an FLDS person but I respect them, their faith and their practices. To bad the rest of USA doesn't! If one doesn't fit into the norm of the USA and end up on Jerry Sringer then you must have something wrong with you..I challenge you differently? FLDS Folks I have high respect for you.God Bless

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Nancy Dockstader, left, a member of the FLDS Church, embraces her daughter Amy, 9, after they were reunited at the Baptist Children's Home Ministries Youth Camp near Lulling, Texas, Monday.

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