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FLDS official: No more underage marriages; reunifications begin with the children
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Sugar Momma | 5:40 p.m. June 2, 2008
One more thing.
I think that every member of YFZ needs to be shown the jailhouse video of Warren Jeffs - the one that HE begged his brother Nephi to show people - where he announces that he's the "wickedest man in this dispensation," and that he's, "not the prophet. Never was a prophet." And that he's sorry. And all that crap.
Tell me that would at least liberate the minds of the poor women and children who have been herded and treated like currency and cattle! Wouldn't it phase them?
I think that every member of YFZ needs to be shown the jailhouse video of Warren Jeffs - the one that HE begged his brother Nephi to show people - where he announces that he's the "wickedest man in this dispensation," and that he's, "not the prophet. Never was a prophet." And that he's sorry. And all that crap.
Tell me that would at least liberate the minds of the poor women and children who have been herded and treated like currency and cattle! Wouldn't it phase them?
zxcvbnm | 5:43 p.m. June 2, 2008
Re Gal50
You made your observation of the number of Utah residents posting on this site and their generaly pro FLDS stance raises a few questions.
Doesn't it figure that this paper will have a preponderance of Utah residents posting.
If the split of opinions is a bit pro-FLDs isn't it a bit natural considering the origin and religion of the residents considering the roots of their religion and culture, and the resulting persecution of their ancestors.
I for one am from Texas and have been reading this paper since the beginning of this mess....have posted very little.
The reason for me posting now is that the SanAngelo paper has suspended the comment section...so much for freedom of speech in Texas.
The pro-con split of Texas natives and Utah natives seems about equal between the two papers.
blogs. and I have noticed that noone on either site condones perversion...they just don't like the means used by Texas to achieve the ends.
Texas has a habit of bullying it's citizens in the court system and law enforcement in more than just this one instance....the Texas prison industry makes a profit off the bullying......Just the way it is.
Comments continue below
New Profit(phet) | 5:45 p.m. June 2, 2008
These women have choices? Really?
The early beatings, softening them up for the future...any choice there? The isolation and fear of the outside world as part of your entire life from birth...any choice there? The culling of the males from the herd, the arranged marriage, further beatings for non compliance. Choices? How about your adult right to self determination crippled by the fact that you will never see your children again? Your choice?
These people are running a perverted prison camp. Period. Supporting it is sick. Either we figure this out and draw the line, or I get to open a brothel, sorry I mean religious short term polygamist compound, here in Utah. With a Casino. God, through his prophet (me) says so. And we shall not engage in behaviour as depraved as the FLDS does, and I shall expect such unqualified support from the citizens of Utah for my religious freedom as I see here for the FLDS.
The early beatings, softening them up for the future...any choice there? The isolation and fear of the outside world as part of your entire life from birth...any choice there? The culling of the males from the herd, the arranged marriage, further beatings for non compliance. Choices? How about your adult right to self determination crippled by the fact that you will never see your children again? Your choice?
These people are running a perverted prison camp. Period. Supporting it is sick. Either we figure this out and draw the line, or I get to open a brothel, sorry I mean religious short term polygamist compound, here in Utah. With a Casino. God, through his prophet (me) says so. And we shall not engage in behaviour as depraved as the FLDS does, and I shall expect such unqualified support from the citizens of Utah for my religious freedom as I see here for the FLDS.
realitycheck | 5:53 p.m. June 2, 2008
re - who's the father?
What you fail (miserably) to discuss is that the two children of the mid-west teen will have every opportunity to complete high school, go to college if they want, get a (real) job, choose their spouse, see the world (as much as $ or time allow), choose their religion, choose their view of the world, choose...., choose...., choose... everything.
The children born to FLDS will have no future EVER and no coices EVER.
I'd rather be born into povery and die at 20 than live to be 100 and have every decision made for me. These kids are slaves. Welcome to religious freedom (it's no freedom at all.)
What you fail (miserably) to discuss is that the two children of the mid-west teen will have every opportunity to complete high school, go to college if they want, get a (real) job, choose their spouse, see the world (as much as $ or time allow), choose their religion, choose their view of the world, choose...., choose...., choose... everything.
The children born to FLDS will have no future EVER and no coices EVER.
I'd rather be born into povery and die at 20 than live to be 100 and have every decision made for me. These kids are slaves. Welcome to religious freedom (it's no freedom at all.)
Legal Parents Where? | 5:57 p.m. June 2, 2008
To Texas Mom: You are right on. No religion has the right to break the law and
get away with it. Abuse is very hard to prove. I too was abused physically
(sexually) and mentally. I kept it a secret til I was almost 30 yrs old. I
hoped if I didn't tell, they would love me. I covered up my fear and pain
in being an over achiever and a straigt A student. I put on a happy face for
fear someone would see something was wrong. I really believed I must be to
blame. But, All it really did is allow it to happen to my younger sister too
then. We just found out 25 yrs later. This is a horrible thing to recover from.
And as for the girls marrying young men. Can't happen, have they
forgotten the lost boys who are kick out and made to work in construction. This
sick abuse has everyone fooled. What a shame.
Anonymous | 6:00 p.m. June 2, 2008
Can you furnish a link to where it is proven they do not get welfare?
For crying out loud. | 3:13 p.m. June 2, 2008
For the last time people.
1) YFZ is not on welfare
For crying out loud. | 3:13 p.m. June 2, 2008
For the last time people.
1) YFZ is not on welfare
jr | 6:19 p.m. June 2, 2008
Anonymouse 1? YFZ is not on welfare - possibly they used the Utah welfare
money to buy the property because it is a known fact that they collect big time
here in Utah thanks to our AG. Yep the men cannot support all their spiritual
wives and bastard children - not even the wealthy Kingston - right in court
admitted he couldn't afford his 100 bastards and his wife Heidi was
collecting welfare
zxcvbnm | 6:23 p.m. June 2, 2008
It is about choice....chose to be FLDS and follow the rules, or chose to leave.
Many chose the rules .....others leave.
Some of those that leave chose to use the word "Escape". "Escape" sells more books, stirs up more people, and makes the author a celebrity. Not bad for a former topless dancer and teen mother.
Anna Nichol Smith milked her sympathy train pretty far and set a few examples.....Guess the jessop woman learned a thing or two and didn't have to marry a 90 year old millionaire to make a buck.
Yep...we all have choices....sometimes hard ones.....life changing choices....but we live with the consequences right or wrong.
Great Minds... | 6:29 p.m. June 2, 2008
"Parents and children should not be separated without the most compelling
of justifications," said Daniel Mach, director of litigation with the
organization's program on "Freedom of Religion and Belief. "
So this fellow thinks Cults are now religions and Churches...presiding over spiritual marriages are A ok and a bed in the Church for...hmmm is fine also? And now a girl will be 17 or 18 when she is dragged off to marry an old man, that's much better. Fine Job.
So this fellow thinks Cults are now religions and Churches...presiding over spiritual marriages are A ok and a bed in the Church for...hmmm is fine also? And now a girl will be 17 or 18 when she is dragged off to marry an old man, that's much better. Fine Job.
Sad, Sad Day | 6:28 p.m. June 2, 2008
This is truely a sad day in this country. All of these children are going to be
released into an enviroment that worships a registered sex offender, truely a
sad day. I agree with Sugar Momma, if CPS had done this any other way the rest
would have disappeared just as the fathers did when the raid started, Rod
Parkers own words mentioned many left the state for fear of prosecution. The
judge and CPS should be able to sleep at night knowing that they did everything
they could to try to save these children. Unfortunately, there are loop holes
in the law thus granting the FLDS access to these children again. Sad, sad day!
Re:Hypocrites? | 6:48 p.m. June 2, 2008
Polygamy may be against the law but prosecuting it is a different story. Unless
they are marrying underage girls, forcing women without their consent or
committing welfare fraud, there is not a lot the government can do with
consenting adults who wish to live a polygamous lifestyle. If polygamy is
illegal then adultery should also be a criminal offense, or do you see a
difference between them?
To Jr. | 7:04 p.m. June 2, 2008
Texas welfare against stated at the beginning of this mess that no FLDS were
receiving welfare. Now you want to believe they "possibly" derive
funds from Utah. Well possibly the Easter bunny gives them money as well, but
Occam's razor suggests they obtain their money through work just like
everybody else. I find it bizarre that so many that post don't bother with
facts preferring gossip when two courts in tx including their highest courts
state there is no evidence for the removal of all the children. Anything
outside of that is libel. Ah, but gossip makes you feel better about your own
pathetic life.
Anonymous | 7:09 p.m. June 2, 2008
Isn't it the supreme Court that said, "CPS, you haven't proven
your case, return every child home?" Is this judge Walthers in contempt of
court for making a condition before returning the children? As I understand it,
the supreme court didn't give stipulations for their return! I think judge
Walthers has overstepped her bounds, is that true? I'm very glad these
children are being returned home! I think that the way they did it was 100%
wrong! I am grateful to have seen the supreme court upholding our constitution!
As far as this one case, I think if the attorney has evidence of immediate
danger of abuse, then I agree to investigate it first.
10 hours | 7:20 p.m. June 2, 2008
Every 10 hours a 14 year old gets pregnant in Texas, but only if you are FLDS
will the court not let you keep your baby and take it home. Only if you are
FLDS will you be forced to stay at a Baptist "home" for children when
you only want to go home. Only if you are FLDS would you be considered a
"victim" otherwise you would be considered just another teen
statistic. The rate of underage marriage at the ranch was, per dshs, lower than
throughout ALL of TEXAS. But only if you are FLDS does Texas force itself to
legal standards. If you are Hispanic, which comprises 62% of those pregnancies
none will be brought before the court. Why the double standard?
Gal50 | 7:29 p.m. June 2, 2008
Willie Jessop's statement is a step in the right direction as no girl
should be forced to marry an old man. Had this statement been made when five
girls were found to be underage, it would have gone a long way toward
reunification. It doesn't hurt to say we're sorry, we made a mistake.
What did hurt was the refusal of some members to admit there was something wrong
when everyone else could see that there was. It appeared that members were
living in denial and weren't willing to alter their illegal ways.
The state and the FLDS still need to develop an understanding because some of the laws are not clear. For example, let's say that a girl can monogamously marry with parental consent at 16. The FLDS may think that a parent can give consent to a forced polygamous marriage when a girl is 16 and that isn't true, because a parent can't consent to polygamous marriage.
Hopefully, the parenting class will be comprehensive and legally correct. It may be a good idea for both parties to audio tape the classes. Forced marriages of older teens are almost just as abusive as statutory rape, although not illegal.
The state and the FLDS still need to develop an understanding because some of the laws are not clear. For example, let's say that a girl can monogamously marry with parental consent at 16. The FLDS may think that a parent can give consent to a forced polygamous marriage when a girl is 16 and that isn't true, because a parent can't consent to polygamous marriage.
Hopefully, the parenting class will be comprehensive and legally correct. It may be a good idea for both parties to audio tape the classes. Forced marriages of older teens are almost just as abusive as statutory rape, although not illegal.
To anon | 7:30 p.m. June 2, 2008
The Supreme Court did give three very specific stipulations that could be
allowed for the return of the children. She wisely stuck to only those three.
She was though, outrageously unprofessional in walking out of the court room on
Friday and I have never seen nor heard of such. I remain curious as to why the
FLDS were chosen as sacrificial lamb, when TX has rates of underage pregnancy
that surpasses the FLDS instances by many standard deviations. It seems the
Baptists do hate the LDS mormons enough to kick a distant relative. As an
agnostic, I even find the actions appalling perhaps especially appalling since
clearly the desire was to inflict the baptist cult on these children of another
brand cult. Yes, I consider all religions cults. The evidence never surfaced
and there was 40+ days to produce such. The DNA should long have been returned.
Online you can get it back within a week. It's just a TX game of my
religion is better than yours though again underage pregnancy outside the
compound was actually higher statistically than the FLDS ranch. Why on earth
would they want to follow our example when numbers show we get it wrong.
Fathers | 7:33 p.m. June 2, 2008
Just because the media is not showing fathers means nothing. The media spoon
feeds you what you are stupid enough to believe and they get ratings which boost
their advertising budgets.
Focus on court records which two courts stated CPS and the lower court overstepped. Also stated was that there was no evidence to support the action. The list goes on but you need to do the research and not gossip falsehoods.
Focus on court records which two courts stated CPS and the lower court overstepped. Also stated was that there was no evidence to support the action. The list goes on but you need to do the research and not gossip falsehoods.
Utah Resident | 7:39 p.m. June 2, 2008
POLYGAMY IS STILL A FELONY and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
RAPE OF CHILDREN IS STILL A FELONY and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
ABANDONMENT OF YOUNG BOYS IS ILLEGAL and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
WELFARE FRAUD IS ILLEGAL and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
Utah desperately needs a NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL!
RAPE OF CHILDREN IS STILL A FELONY and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
ABANDONMENT OF YOUNG BOYS IS ILLEGAL and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
WELFARE FRAUD IS ILLEGAL and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
Utah desperately needs a NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL!
re: the "Judge" | 7:40 p.m. June 2, 2008
Ultimately, I think Walther showed herself the fool once again by unilaterally
issuing a ruling instead of accepting a deal between CPS the mothers. Some of
the requirements she made opened her up for another appeal--something that
wouldn't be possible with an agreement.
Oh, she is amusing.
Oh, she is amusing.
To Gal20 | 7:40 p.m. June 2, 2008
Parenting class consists of using Britney Spears, Lindsay Lohan, and Paris
Hilton as acceptable roles models. Then there is the acceptable clothing class
which highlights clothing from the above role models. Then there is the
"how precious is your body class" again listing the above roles models
as examples. Then there is the drug, and alcohol class in which kids are taught
to follow the fine examples of the above role models. Odd that you think the
FLDS are the ones with the problem. I think they have something going for them.
How many STD's were found in the FLDS girls v. the above? I would wager
there were fewer found in all the FLDS girls, even if they were adults listed as
children, than the three non-flds listed above.
As far as marriage, forced marriages are NEVER legal, but arranged marriages are acceptable.
Who is Billy Dan Carroll and why did he make the news? That is an example of someone CPS trusts.
As far as marriage, forced marriages are NEVER legal, but arranged marriages are acceptable.
Who is Billy Dan Carroll and why did he make the news? That is an example of someone CPS trusts.
John Lambert | 7:41 p.m. June 2, 2008
This is from the group that view the 1890 manifesto to have been a false front
to decieve the Federal Government and the Second Manifesto in 1904 to have been
more of the same.
I does however destroy Judge Walther's methods of removing the children.
I does however destroy Judge Walther's methods of removing the children.
New Mexico | 7:49 p.m. June 2, 2008
From all reports that I have read, pedophiles cannot not be cured, so what makes
the Texas Supreme Court think that they will change now? The travesty is that
these poor children are being sent back to the very men who abused them in the
first place. FLDS, your religion is flawed, and your thinking is just plain
wrong. May God forgive you for the sins you have committed against your
children.
Observer from GA | 7:52 p.m. June 2, 2008
Except for FLDS found guilty of a criminal offence,
CPS should be required to reimburse all FLDS travel costs, loss of income due to visiting children throughout the state, attorney fees, and pain and suffering for separating families for 2 months. Child welfare systems throughout the U.S. need to get the message that it is a crime to trample on parental rights.
CPS should be required to reimburse all FLDS travel costs, loss of income due to visiting children throughout the state, attorney fees, and pain and suffering for separating families for 2 months. Child welfare systems throughout the U.S. need to get the message that it is a crime to trample on parental rights.
Worried | 8:03 p.m. June 2, 2008
What's next? We all know that NY City, Detroit, Dallas, etc have more child
abuse, more unwed underage mothers than the FLDS group. So, I guess we all
better worry that the officials are going to raid all of our homes and remove
all of our children just because child abuse may be going on somewhere in our
cities. I hope we can all find attorneys that can get our children back that are
not trying to get their own children back. We must stop child abuse. The
officials must think that the best way to stop child abuse is to remove all
children from all homes in all cities throughout America. It just may stop child
abuse. Scary?
John Lambert | 8:04 p.m. June 2, 2008
To force people to view the jailhouse video of Warren Jeffs would violate
their free speech rights. People have to right to ignore speech.
Also, I do not think it would do much good. I believe it, because I know that the Prophet is Thomas S. Monson, and Jeffs is a fraud. However, I doubt many FLDS people will trust the authenticity of the jail house video.
Also, I do not think it would do much good. I believe it, because I know that the Prophet is Thomas S. Monson, and Jeffs is a fraud. However, I doubt many FLDS people will trust the authenticity of the jail house video.
John Lambert | 8:11 p.m. June 2, 2008
Few people here have advocated the rights of the FLDS on First Admendment
ground. The main complaints have been lodged on search and seizure from the 4th
Admendment and Due Process from the 14th Admendment. I have not seen more than
one of two people say "They should not prosecute people for sex with
minors" or "They should not prosecute people for polygamy".
Well, in fact a lot of the FLDS people suggest the latter. What people say is
"They should not take away children without evidence", "They
should not operate on a scam phone call", "They should not judge the
many on the actions of the few" and "They should not take away
children maerrily because of a belief of the parents".
You can not deny access to children merrily becuase of the beliefs of the parents. Look up Shepp Vs. Shepp. There may be only one p. It is a case decided by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court by drawing on federal jurisprudence that says teaching children that polygamy is good is not grounds for terminating a father's parental rights even when the mother odjects to it. I have issues with the ruling, but it is law.
You can not deny access to children merrily becuase of the beliefs of the parents. Look up Shepp Vs. Shepp. There may be only one p. It is a case decided by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court by drawing on federal jurisprudence that says teaching children that polygamy is good is not grounds for terminating a father's parental rights even when the mother odjects to it. I have issues with the ruling, but it is law.
John Lambert | 8:15 p.m. June 2, 2008
To anonymous at 6:00
No one has to prove they do not get welfare fraud. If you want to accuse them of such, give a reliable source of welfare fraud in Texas. I am beganing to wonder if "Bleeding the Beast" is a real thing or it is something Jon Krakauer made up along with the LDS Church opposing the marriage of white women and black men. Considering the one black guy on my stake's high council has a white wife, as does the black head of the BYU-Hawaii religion department and other black men in the church who hold such offices as Temple Sealer and Bishop, I think I have lots of proof that Kraukauer does not speak the truth.
No one has to prove they do not get welfare fraud. If you want to accuse them of such, give a reliable source of welfare fraud in Texas. I am beganing to wonder if "Bleeding the Beast" is a real thing or it is something Jon Krakauer made up along with the LDS Church opposing the marriage of white women and black men. Considering the one black guy on my stake's high council has a white wife, as does the black head of the BYU-Hawaii religion department and other black men in the church who hold such offices as Temple Sealer and Bishop, I think I have lots of proof that Kraukauer does not speak the truth.
John Lambert | 8:32 p.m. June 2, 2008
Well, there were only 283 people on Medicade and 203 recipients of food stamps
in the county where the YFZ ranch is. The county population was 2,800. There
were no people recieving government cash assistance. Between September 2005
and April 2008 which goes back to before many of the FLDS moved in the total
number of people in the county on medicade went up by 19. How ever this was an
increase of 22 children, thus a decrease of three adults, and the
Children's Health Insurance program in the county saw a decrease from 111
to 63 children covered. It is not possible fro this data to state that none of
the FLDS were recieving governement assistance. However, there is no conclusive
evidence that there was welfare fraud going on at the YFZ ranch either.
REPENT | 8:47 p.m. June 2, 2008
There comes a time when people need to stop the abuse. There is NO DOUBT to all
the abuse within the FLDS cult.
NOW, can everyone see what happens when people don't listen to a true prophet? The FLDS apostate group refused over a 100 years ago to listen to a "true" prophet, who was Wilford Woodruff, who commanded that the practice of polygamy STOP. The FLDS are damned now for not taking heed to the prophets voice and stopping the practice when the revelation was given to a true prophet. This goes for all of you who are supporters of the FLDS. LISTEN TO THE PROPHET WILFORD WOODRUFF or be damned.
NOW, can everyone see what happens when people don't listen to a true prophet? The FLDS apostate group refused over a 100 years ago to listen to a "true" prophet, who was Wilford Woodruff, who commanded that the practice of polygamy STOP. The FLDS are damned now for not taking heed to the prophets voice and stopping the practice when the revelation was given to a true prophet. This goes for all of you who are supporters of the FLDS. LISTEN TO THE PROPHET WILFORD WOODRUFF or be damned.
Realty Check? | 8:47 p.m. June 2, 2008
I'm not saying that forced anything is right--I'm saying that there
are other cultures in America today that support things that are terribly
unhealthy for children--and I'd like to see that changed, too.
I was making the point that the FLDS children aren't by far the only children in America who don't know who their fathers are.
As for the girl with the two babies, do you seriously think this girl, daughter of a mother in the same type situation, and with 2 kids already at barely sixteen, is going to raise her children in some other culture--one that values education, commitment, and making wise choices--NO--she will raise another generation on welfare. "Drawing" is a way of life that we have fostered in this country for several generations now, and if you haven't seen it, I wonder which reality you live in.
I worked with hundreds of adult probation volunteers, and let me tell you, I saw it all the time. When I did jail visits, I saw the (multiple) girlfriends with children visiting--sometimes several different girlfriends with children the same ages--the same prisoner. Reality!
I was making the point that the FLDS children aren't by far the only children in America who don't know who their fathers are.
As for the girl with the two babies, do you seriously think this girl, daughter of a mother in the same type situation, and with 2 kids already at barely sixteen, is going to raise her children in some other culture--one that values education, commitment, and making wise choices--NO--she will raise another generation on welfare. "Drawing" is a way of life that we have fostered in this country for several generations now, and if you haven't seen it, I wonder which reality you live in.
I worked with hundreds of adult probation volunteers, and let me tell you, I saw it all the time. When I did jail visits, I saw the (multiple) girlfriends with children visiting--sometimes several different girlfriends with children the same ages--the same prisoner. Reality!
Oregonian | 9:04 p.m. June 2, 2008
to John Lambert:
Good posts but some of these people exhibit such pervasive ignorance it is a waste of time to offer correct information. The obvious, however, is that if they were receiving state assistance of some kind, CPS would have access to their names and ages. The FLDS built that community, including an impressive Temple in less that 4 years with their own money.
CPS has fed the press outrageous stories about this community to advance their own illegal behavior and some of these bloggers keep repeating what they hear because they're too lazy to research the truth. Or they're just full of hatred.
Good posts but some of these people exhibit such pervasive ignorance it is a waste of time to offer correct information. The obvious, however, is that if they were receiving state assistance of some kind, CPS would have access to their names and ages. The FLDS built that community, including an impressive Temple in less that 4 years with their own money.
CPS has fed the press outrageous stories about this community to advance their own illegal behavior and some of these bloggers keep repeating what they hear because they're too lazy to research the truth. Or they're just full of hatred.
Emma in Illinois | 9:05 p.m. June 2, 2008
So happy to see the children returned to their mothers today. You could see the
anguish, and happiness on both of their faces. Almost like they have lived
through this long hard journey. It is hard to watch this from so far away, and
be able to do absolutly nothing. Also, what is WRONG with Texas. First they take
400+ children for really no good reason, most were babies, causing great
distress, and breaking the Constitution, then, you are sending back the five
abused girls, without checking out the men involved first, I cannot understand
this. What a mess. I'ts also not very fair that the government took these
children away, put them through a nightmare,then, expect the mothers to travel
the whole state of Texas to pick them up. Anyway, glad to see the children go
home, and, Texas, you are making the rest of us look bad. What's happened
to America?
Anonymous | 9:10 p.m. June 2, 2008
I don't know what to think about all of this. I would have been fine with
the kids going back to their parents had I not seen the pictures of Warren Jeffs
making out with a little girl, and then seen how the FLDS men bloggers defended
those pictures as if they were fabricated. It's like they didn't see
anything wrong with that. i don't trust them with the children.
To the person that wonders | 9:11 p.m. June 2, 2008
What the difference between polygamy and adultery is: One is
"glorified" and the other is not. But, as we can see, the
"glorified" one has severe legal problems. Also, the person involved
in polygamy tries to justify it by saying it's their "religion"
or "God tells them to do it". Adulterous relationships knows that
they are wrong and they usually end up trying to make amends. At least there is
hope that they will change their ways! I think that anyone comparing the two
tells a lot about both of them! (Both are wrong and hurtful).
cmk | 9:20 p.m. June 2, 2008
Utah Resident said:
POLYGAMY IS STILL A FELONY and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
RAPE OF CHILDREN IS STILL A FELONY and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
ABANDONMENT OF YOUNG BOYS IS ILLEGAL and ...........and on and on
Tell me Utah Resident...What church do you belong to, and tell me how you feel about gay parenting...and abortion, and 12 year old girls having condoms handed out to them , and tattoo artists being able to physically disfigure young girls with markings that last for life, and body piercing etc....
Just curious Utah Resident...Look around - child abuse comes in many forms
in many societies. Look at your own world & clean it up.
POLYGAMY IS STILL A FELONY and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
RAPE OF CHILDREN IS STILL A FELONY and SHOULD BE PROSECUTED!
ABANDONMENT OF YOUNG BOYS IS ILLEGAL and ...........and on and on
Tell me Utah Resident...What church do you belong to, and tell me how you feel about gay parenting...and abortion, and 12 year old girls having condoms handed out to them , and tattoo artists being able to physically disfigure young girls with markings that last for life, and body piercing etc....
Just curious Utah Resident...Look around - child abuse comes in many forms
in many societies. Look at your own world & clean it up.
musings | 9:32 p.m. June 2, 2008
All allegations of sexual abuse of minors should have been handled on a
case-by-case basis. Whoever comes between a minor child and a parent had better
have a compelling safety reason which overrides the harm to the child when he
thinks he will never see his parent again. This cannot be done in a dragnet,
collectively. It can only be done because there is clear and convincing evidence
of harm to a child, after a thorough investigation.
Hundreds of children were taken from their parents based on a tip from an imposter.
It could have happened to Catholics in a parish with a pedophile priest -- but it didn't. Why? Political power (hard-won) of Catholics. In earlier days, many attempts to separate kids from parents collectively (Native Americans)
I haved noticed that so many of these child-snatchings never result in prosecutions. The standard of proof is lower. To convict, it is "beyond reasonable doubt."
I hope the children (who appear loved) are feeling safe back with their obviously relieved and loving mothers.
Hundreds of children were taken from their parents based on a tip from an imposter.
It could have happened to Catholics in a parish with a pedophile priest -- but it didn't. Why? Political power (hard-won) of Catholics. In earlier days, many attempts to separate kids from parents collectively (Native Americans)
I haved noticed that so many of these child-snatchings never result in prosecutions. The standard of proof is lower. To convict, it is "beyond reasonable doubt."
I hope the children (who appear loved) are feeling safe back with their obviously relieved and loving mothers.
cmk | 9:43 p.m. June 2, 2008
Anonymous said:
"had I not seen the pictures of Warren Jeffs making out with a little girl,"
I would be very suspect of that picture turning up, - only after CPS had lost the first round in the higher courts...Why wasn't it put out at first?
I think it was a desperation move on the part of CPS...the face being blurred out (conveniently) so you couldn't determine age. As far as height, she was short, but so am I. Jeffs is very tall.
As far as that x-LDS woman who has been responsible for all the salacious scandalizing of the Ranch and it's inhabitants, I have about as much faith in her 'testimony' as I would in Satan himself. I will trust none of the testimony of any of the children (on child molestation) after the state and CPS psychologists get their hands on them for the �programing� they are so adept at...Why else do you think they want to take them �off the ranch� when they do their psychology on them. They have a bias, and really �need� these kids to have been abused
So they won�t look like the Keystone Nazi Brigade they actually are.
"had I not seen the pictures of Warren Jeffs making out with a little girl,"
I would be very suspect of that picture turning up, - only after CPS had lost the first round in the higher courts...Why wasn't it put out at first?
I think it was a desperation move on the part of CPS...the face being blurred out (conveniently) so you couldn't determine age. As far as height, she was short, but so am I. Jeffs is very tall.
As far as that x-LDS woman who has been responsible for all the salacious scandalizing of the Ranch and it's inhabitants, I have about as much faith in her 'testimony' as I would in Satan himself. I will trust none of the testimony of any of the children (on child molestation) after the state and CPS psychologists get their hands on them for the �programing� they are so adept at...Why else do you think they want to take them �off the ranch� when they do their psychology on them. They have a bias, and really �need� these kids to have been abused
So they won�t look like the Keystone Nazi Brigade they actually are.
Stephen | 9:46 p.m. June 2, 2008
God bless the Texas CPS folks for trying to stop this horror. The FLDS people
are trained to lie. That is what they do. I best they come out and say they are
giving up on underage marriage next...
pligchild | 9:50 p.m. June 2, 2008
"still investigating whether it was a hoax"
What? Still investigating? Are they waiting for Rozita Swintons DNA?
What? Still investigating? Are they waiting for Rozita Swintons DNA?
cmk | 10:01 p.m. June 2, 2008
It irks me for people from Texas to attempt to equate the people of Utah &
Idaho and other western states 'who still believe in the Constituton, rule
of law, & it's protections' to be determened to be
'soft' of child abuse.
What causes child abuse is the kind of hysteria, and witch-hunting that just raised it's ugly head in TEXAS and horrifically abused over 400 women and children to a degree they have never suffered in their lives.
You people who would give unfettered control to the state to determine your neighbor and his children's life are hypocrites and are the first ones to cry foul and run to attorneys when you feel 'your' rights are being infringed upon. You dig out the Constitution then, don't you?
Texas has a bad name for being a brutal regime....and it's getting worse. Texas hangs them, and has their trials later.
And a little torture on the way...Nice guys!
Dubya started a war in Iraq, why don't all you Texas cowboys/girls with your tanks and guns go there and fight. Show us how brave you are then - leave the FLDS women and children alone.
What causes child abuse is the kind of hysteria, and witch-hunting that just raised it's ugly head in TEXAS and horrifically abused over 400 women and children to a degree they have never suffered in their lives.
You people who would give unfettered control to the state to determine your neighbor and his children's life are hypocrites and are the first ones to cry foul and run to attorneys when you feel 'your' rights are being infringed upon. You dig out the Constitution then, don't you?
Texas has a bad name for being a brutal regime....and it's getting worse. Texas hangs them, and has their trials later.
And a little torture on the way...Nice guys!
Dubya started a war in Iraq, why don't all you Texas cowboys/girls with your tanks and guns go there and fight. Show us how brave you are then - leave the FLDS women and children alone.
bilbo | 10:03 p.m. June 2, 2008
Reply to deliberate twists: Men who have sex with underage girls, even if they
do not father children, are molestors and perverts.
I NEVER said, nor intimated, these fahers were molesting their own children.
But, these FATHERS are molesting underage neices, step daughters, cousins and anything else that bthey can get "spiritual" with.
I have posted on EVERY FLDS news item about my support of children being with family...BUT, Adult men who have sex with, and father children with, underage girls having MY contempt poured all over them.
Trashy men have sex with underage girls.... These men actually deserve the death penalty, IMHO.
Stop acting like you men are victims here.
You are trash. You can't hide behind the Constitution like the women and children rightfully did.
You ran off into the brush; hiding from authorities, If you had stepped forward like REAL men, instead of trashy bottomdwellers, you perhaps could have ended this sooner.
You men are sorry trash dwellers.
from an LDS who has a good moral compass.
I NEVER said, nor intimated, these fahers were molesting their own children.
But, these FATHERS are molesting underage neices, step daughters, cousins and anything else that bthey can get "spiritual" with.
I have posted on EVERY FLDS news item about my support of children being with family...BUT, Adult men who have sex with, and father children with, underage girls having MY contempt poured all over them.
Trashy men have sex with underage girls.... These men actually deserve the death penalty, IMHO.
Stop acting like you men are victims here.
You are trash. You can't hide behind the Constitution like the women and children rightfully did.
You ran off into the brush; hiding from authorities, If you had stepped forward like REAL men, instead of trashy bottomdwellers, you perhaps could have ended this sooner.
You men are sorry trash dwellers.
from an LDS who has a good moral compass.
Interloper | 10:08 p.m. June 2, 2008
I am glad that the plaintiffs' attorneys stopped trying to bully Judge
Walther and agreed to the final order the court imposed, conditions and all.
They should have been more cooperative previously.
I look forward to learning which FLDS members the grand jury that sat today indicted.
I look forward to learning which FLDS members the grand jury that sat today indicted.
Anonymous | 10:19 p.m. June 2, 2008
Are they saying they are going to stop LEGAL or SPIRTUAL marriages?
Is Willie in trouble, is he one of the cases for the grand jury today?
Why did he change his mind so quickly?
Is Willie in trouble, is he one of the cases for the grand jury today?
Why did he change his mind so quickly?
Robert H. | 10:28 p.m. June 2, 2008
I am happy that Warren Jeffs a true false prophet is behind bars. All this stuff
is what happens when people are led by an evil man into a sinful life style.
Hopefully the abuse of the young FLDS girls will stop. And as well, that all the
perpetrators, sex offenders will soon be caught and will join Warren Jeffs.
It's time to clean up America.
RE: zxcvbnm | 10:30 p.m. June 2, 2008
I'm an Iowan and would like to add my voice to yours. Not all posting
here are Utahns. Not everyone posting here are FLDS or support the perversion
of Warren Jeffs. But like you I'm disgusted by the way CPS and Texas
handled this whole thing. It shows an ugly face of thinly veiled bigotry and
contempt for someone different than them. Not all folks from Texas fit this
mold. I have to applaud the courageous acts of the legal aid society, the
appeals court and the Texas supreme court, and ordinary folks (and not a
few)such as yourself who aren't afraid to call tryanny a tryanny.
For those who continue to lable everyone who won't go along with your lynch mob mentality as FLDS or as someone somehow aiding perversion, I ask you to honestly look at the facts in this case, sort out the sensationlism and hysteria created by the media circus and look to your own prejudices.
For those who continue to lable everyone who won't go along with your lynch mob mentality as FLDS or as someone somehow aiding perversion, I ask you to honestly look at the facts in this case, sort out the sensationlism and hysteria created by the media circus and look to your own prejudices.
Teacher and Dad | 10:51 p.m. June 2, 2008
regarding welfare -
"The Houston Chronicle has reported that not one of the nearly 3,000 residents of Schleicher County, where the Yearning for Zion Ranch is located, is receiving state assistance."
also, from the Dallas News:
Here are the recent findings of the Texas special Senate Finance Committee by head of Social Services himself, Albert Hawkins. Child Protective Services falls under Social Services, so it's in his best interest to try to claim the FLDS have received public assistance, even if minimal, but he says they have received none:
"Do sect members in Texas get on welfare or obtain other forms of public assistance, asked Sen. Jane Nelson, R-Flower Mound. State social services czar Albert Hawkins said a state review showed that sect members haven't sought public assistance."
"The Houston Chronicle has reported that not one of the nearly 3,000 residents of Schleicher County, where the Yearning for Zion Ranch is located, is receiving state assistance."
also, from the Dallas News:
Here are the recent findings of the Texas special Senate Finance Committee by head of Social Services himself, Albert Hawkins. Child Protective Services falls under Social Services, so it's in his best interest to try to claim the FLDS have received public assistance, even if minimal, but he says they have received none:
"Do sect members in Texas get on welfare or obtain other forms of public assistance, asked Sen. Jane Nelson, R-Flower Mound. State social services czar Albert Hawkins said a state review showed that sect members haven't sought public assistance."
Freedom Mann | 10:51 p.m. June 2, 2008
FYI, the land where the YFZ ranch is was purchased by PRIVATE money from an FLDS
member who makes airplane parts.
This was revealed when Warren Jeffs was arrested; there was an examination into the funds he controlled.
Indeed, if this had turned out to be true, then the YFZ ranch could have been taken away! But it's not true; repeat; THE RANCH LAND FOR THE RANCH WAS PURCHASED BY THE PRIVATE WEALTH OF AN FLDS MEMBER WHO MAKES AIRPLANE PARTS; he even has a military contract! (I can now see all these "good Christians" going absolutely bonkers over this and trying to find out who he is and ways to end his contract.)
Also, I'm sick-and-tired of too many people making the claim that only other LDS-types are supportive of the FLDS. That is not so. Indeed, I am what Michael Savage freely calls a "Red Diaper Doper Baby." I'm an Atheistic Jew from NEW YORK CITY that has a very fine appreciation of Witch Hunts conducted by various levels of government, of which this is very clearly one of them.
Yes, the FLDS are weird. That said, the US Constitution applies to them, too.
This was revealed when Warren Jeffs was arrested; there was an examination into the funds he controlled.
Indeed, if this had turned out to be true, then the YFZ ranch could have been taken away! But it's not true; repeat; THE RANCH LAND FOR THE RANCH WAS PURCHASED BY THE PRIVATE WEALTH OF AN FLDS MEMBER WHO MAKES AIRPLANE PARTS; he even has a military contract! (I can now see all these "good Christians" going absolutely bonkers over this and trying to find out who he is and ways to end his contract.)
Also, I'm sick-and-tired of too many people making the claim that only other LDS-types are supportive of the FLDS. That is not so. Indeed, I am what Michael Savage freely calls a "Red Diaper Doper Baby." I'm an Atheistic Jew from NEW YORK CITY that has a very fine appreciation of Witch Hunts conducted by various levels of government, of which this is very clearly one of them.
Yes, the FLDS are weird. That said, the US Constitution applies to them, too.
Interesting | 10:56 p.m. June 2, 2008
I AGREE WITH BILBO,
The FLDS bully, Willie Jessop is nervous now, i saw that in his speech today. He says they will have no more under age marriages...WOWSERS he even admitted it-- NO MORE UNDER AGE MARRIAGES...lol! I wonder if the FLDS gals can now pick and choose their own man, and fall in love and marry to whom they please? Of course, when they are of a proper age to do so.
The FLDS bully, Willie Jessop is nervous now, i saw that in his speech today. He says they will have no more under age marriages...WOWSERS he even admitted it-- NO MORE UNDER AGE MARRIAGES...lol! I wonder if the FLDS gals can now pick and choose their own man, and fall in love and marry to whom they please? Of course, when they are of a proper age to do so.
Anonymous | 10:58 p.m. June 2, 2008
The woman in the picture looks like she might be the age to be a grandmother to
this little girl.
Are they sure Nancy Dockstade is her mother.
Are they sure Nancy Dockstade is her mother.
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Nancy Dockstader, left, a member of the FLDS Church, embraces her daughter Amy, 9, after they were reunited at the Baptist Children's Home Ministries Youth Camp near Lulling, Texas, Monday.
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Think about it. If CPS had started trying individual cases from the get-go instead of gathering them all up, then half of that YFZ ranch would have disappeared before even being identified, and the culture would have continued in its secrecy.
Now that their identities are pinned down, they'll become recognized felons if they try to escape Texas. Good luck holding onto their kids if THAT happens.
Walther has her hands tied, but I commend her bravery. I'm glad the kids are back, and I'm glad the parents have to go to counseling. I'm glad the investigations are continuing.