Reader comments
Lawyers meet behind closed doors in FLDS case
84 comments | Read story
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
a mother of FLDS children | 12:01 a.m. June 2, 2008
If the truth is to PREVAIL you must know the truth. This judge does not know the
truth and does not want to know it. If she did she would LET THE CHILDREN GO!!!!
Archon | 1:03 a.m. June 2, 2008
TWO FACTS:
1: The phone call(s) that prompted the CPS raid were a hoax. The claim that authorities are continuing to 'investigate' that call are a lie, because they KNOW that it was a hoax -- but if they ADMIT it, the grounds for their raid are falsified.
2: NO EVIDENCE has been found of any 'abuse' taking place at the ranch. Teenaged girls being pregnant is NOT 'abuse' -- and if one wishes to pretend that it is, then there are literally hundreds of thousands of cases of such 'abuse' taking place all over this country that have absolutely nothing to do with the FLDS.
This isn't about 'abuse.' That's a LIE. It's about RELIGION.
If CPS can take the children away from these people for no other reason than their religion, then they can take YOUR children away too if you aren't a 'normal' mainstream Christian. How many neo-pagans (Wiccans and the like) would lose their children if CPS took a close look at their unorthodox lifestyles? How many Muslims would lose their children for the way they treat THEIR women?
1: The phone call(s) that prompted the CPS raid were a hoax. The claim that authorities are continuing to 'investigate' that call are a lie, because they KNOW that it was a hoax -- but if they ADMIT it, the grounds for their raid are falsified.
2: NO EVIDENCE has been found of any 'abuse' taking place at the ranch. Teenaged girls being pregnant is NOT 'abuse' -- and if one wishes to pretend that it is, then there are literally hundreds of thousands of cases of such 'abuse' taking place all over this country that have absolutely nothing to do with the FLDS.
This isn't about 'abuse.' That's a LIE. It's about RELIGION.
If CPS can take the children away from these people for no other reason than their religion, then they can take YOUR children away too if you aren't a 'normal' mainstream Christian. How many neo-pagans (Wiccans and the like) would lose their children if CPS took a close look at their unorthodox lifestyles? How many Muslims would lose their children for the way they treat THEIR women?
Comments continue below
Robert | 1:48 a.m. June 2, 2008
The appeals court gave 10-days for the children to be returned...It would appear
that Sunday, June 1, 2008 was the tenth day.....Why are the children not
returned to their mothers???
Jeanne | 4:54 a.m. June 2, 2008
I have one question. What is going to happen to the DNA testing procedures?
I agree with Plains Talk. Where is that line? No matter what the FLDS practices child molestation. It is sick and is sickest hidden under the cover of religious freedom. What person would protect child molestation under any circumstances? Children must be protected first no matter what -
I agree with Plains Talk. Where is that line? No matter what the FLDS practices child molestation. It is sick and is sickest hidden under the cover of religious freedom. What person would protect child molestation under any circumstances? Children must be protected first no matter what -
DidAnybodyThinkOfThis | 5:51 a.m. June 2, 2008
I am wondering, if the way to glory to heaven is earned by having multiple wives
then shouldn't the men have to win their hearts? I mean come on this glory
in heaven should be earned, right? My point is this...This is really no
religion/church it's a cult because the men "assign" the women to
men...modern day slavery and sexism. Thank God the children are still with their
rescuers.
Hosestly Curious | 5:58 a.m. June 2, 2008
Would those who feel strongly that the FLDS children should be separated from
teen parents explain why TEXAS should not prosecute the nearly 20,000 Tesas
teens who get pregnant annually. Should these teens and not also have these
children put in foster care also?
Common Sense | 6:00 a.m. June 2, 2008
Seems pretty simple to me, the Texas Supreme Court stated that CPS had no
evidence of child abuse, so why is every one contending there is based on their
opinion and not fact. Time for the Fascist judges to understand the is America
and we have a constitution that protects all of us from this type of intrusion.
Even those who are different from the main stream.
Deep in the Heart | 6:03 a.m. June 2, 2008
The Truth is an idiot. Wanting the children returned to their home is NOT being
in support of the FLDS, it's being in support of the law and the
Constitution of the United States. Wanting the children returned does NOT mean
wanting to stop the prosecution of anyone who can be convicted of raping a girl
at YFZ ranch or elsewhere. Remember, they seized the boys, not just the girls.
Even if the FLDS teach marriage at age 12 is correct (which it is not), you can
only be prosecuted for actually committing the act, actually marrying or having
sex with an underage girl, not simply believing that's the way God wants
it. You cannot preemptively remove the children because of their parents'
beliefs, sorry, and still support the Constitution. CPS has far more cases right
under its nose where children are in imminent danger, many in their own system,
but they choose not to act and go after the weird religious sect instead.
TO wyogirl | 7:09 a.m. June 2, 2008
You might be surprised to find that rape, and child molestation is occurring in
your neighborhood even if you stick your head in the sand. Go to your state
website and look up sexual predators. I guarantee you that a few live within a
very short distance. You might also want to browse court records and you will
see those very crimes as a repeated pattern. It might shock you, but the rate
of abuse (based on 5 potential victims) is significantly less than in our world
with a 14 year old getting pregnant in TX every 10 hours.
reminds me | 7:11 a.m. June 2, 2008
I think every person should watch the movie, Minority Report. In it people are
killed because they might, some time in the future, perhaps commit a crime if
the timing is right and the stars are aligned.
to:did anyone think | 7:17 a.m. June 2, 2008
Why do you assume that these men didn't win the hearts of these women with
most marrying close to their own age based on records? You do realize that
there were FLDS dances, don't you? The kids also put on plays that were
attended by all.
To interloper | 7:21 a.m. June 2, 2008
Did you purposefully not read the court documents? There was NO EVIDENCE of
abuse based on the ruling of not one but two courts. I beg of you to get up to
date on facts rather than gossip. The latest news is that a 29 year old was
finally declared an adult. It seems CPS insisted on listing her as a minor.
How many lies does CPS have to tell you before you stop believing them? I had
enough when Carolyn and Flora Jessop were not deemed reliable enough to testify
as experts.
haralick | 7:23 a.m. June 2, 2008
I am very glad the children are soon going back to their parents where they
belong. The moral values at
the FLDS are generally higher than they are in the
general American population. They will need to make an explicit statement making it religiously incorrect for
underage girls to marry. CPS overstepped their
authority. Any problems with alleged child abuse
should have been handled on a one by one basis
and not en mass. Judge Walthers made a big mistake
in her going along CPS without sufficient evidence.
the FLDS are generally higher than they are in the
general American population. They will need to make an explicit statement making it religiously incorrect for
underage girls to marry. CPS overstepped their
authority. Any problems with alleged child abuse
should have been handled on a one by one basis
and not en mass. Judge Walthers made a big mistake
in her going along CPS without sufficient evidence.
zxcvbnm | 7:33 a.m. June 2, 2008
What we are seeing here is standard Texas injustice. Power used by the "good ole boy" network to control a group or individual.
Everyone speaks of law and order here in Texas but there is law for the poor...and law for the well connected or with enough money to buy the system.
Belong to the wrong church or the wrong family and life can be very difficult.
The FLDS were the outsiders from day one, and wanted to be. They fooled themselves in believing in the myth of "Texas rugged individualism" then stood out as not fitting in by standing back...and if they stood out they also lose.
Different can't win in Texas, it only loses in matters of degree.
Don | 7:44 a.m. June 2, 2008
Pam, I�m from NJ and I�m not a part of
a �Religious Sect� and CPS (DYFS) in
Jersey still behave like they did in Texas, but one child/family at a time.
CPS exists to enforce social behavior and not laws. When they showed up at my
door I refused to let them in unless they had an arrest warrant. I never saw
them again and my children are better for it. If my children where to have been
taken for any other reason there would have been no compromise and I would have
appeal and gone all the way to the Supreme Court of the land and I would have
attempted to put CPS out of business. This has nothing to do with who I support
other than the Law of this land.
Don | 7:46 a.m. June 2, 2008
Pam, I�m from NJ and I�m not a part of
a �Religious Sect� and CPS (DYFS) in
Jersey still behave like they did in Texas, but one child/family at a time.
CPS exists to enforce social behavior and not laws. When they showed up at my
door I refused to let them in unless they had an arrest warrant. I never saw
them again and my children are better for it. If my children where to have been
taken for any other reason there would have been no compromise and I would have
appeal and gone all the way to the Supreme Court of the land and I would have
attempted to put CPS out of business. This has nothing to do with who I support
other than the Law of this land.
Kenny 3 | 7:49 a.m. June 2, 2008
My family had a run in with H.R.S. ( Home Reckin Service) in Florida in the late
1980's lost a child due to lies on the states side, now the child is 22 and
she hates Florida for ruining her childhood. She missed the birth of all of her
sibblins and cousins, the death of her Grandmother. SEND those babies back to
there famileys NOW. NO CONDITIONS!!!!!!!!!!
Pearl | 7:49 a.m. June 2, 2008
The children and the mothers are all in the news, and videos. Where are the
fathers to these families. We see nothing of them. Aren't they just as
culpable? Any man that is a man, in my estimation, would be out there protecting
his wife and kids, not hiding at YFZ ranch, or elsewhere.
court | 7:50 a.m. June 2, 2008
In fact, the Third Court of Appeals acknowledges only five underage mothers
among the roughly 450 children but says their existence doesn't prove Child
Protective Services' claims of a pattern of abuse and forced
"marriages."
Why does this not show a pattern? Because the rates outside the ranch are significantly higher.
Why does this not show a pattern? Because the rates outside the ranch are significantly higher.
TO Pearl | 7:59 a.m. June 2, 2008
Do you really not understand media manipulation? The men are busy working (an
income is still needed) and driving women to children often across the state and
can be made available. It doesn't make for a good newscast to show them
though. It also helps dissuade you, because you ignore the fact such as another
"minor" was listed as an adult. She is 29 years of age. I bet you
didn't see that because you were too distracted by the lack of men shown.
steve76 | 8:59 a.m. June 2, 2008
well CPS went to far this time. CPS, lies's, cheat's and steals to get
their way. What CPS was looking for was to climb up the ladder of success
utilizing a power they never should have been given. CPS can add it to their
resume. imagine being a lone PARENT in CPS's deceit, without money. there
would be no way to stop them. At least the LDS ha money. That my fellow
americans was the only thing that stopped this outragous tyranny.
put the CPS personnel involved in prison along with this so called judge. I am sick of the draconian excesses that americans have to put up with. it is time to revolt. Before it is to late.
put the CPS personnel involved in prison along with this so called judge. I am sick of the draconian excesses that americans have to put up with. it is time to revolt. Before it is to late.
Jacob | 9:06 a.m. June 2, 2008
Us Texans, are ashamed of Texas CPS. You can't go into a citizens home
with guns drawn and snatch kids, based on only a prank phone call. Not in this
country! I home the Fundamentalists sue the heck out of the CPS!
Sad for the Chldren | 9:06 a.m. June 2, 2008
What has this world come to that so many folks think it is perfectly proper and
normal to have children marry adults and have children while they are still
children. How sad that in all of this everyone is failing the most vulnerable
of all in our society, the helpless children. Allowing the brainwashing to
continue is a morally wrong. Why is this cazy behavior of thes FDLS people just
ignored? I don't understand how anyone would just let the children go
back to a life of abuse and horror.
John Barth | 9:11 a.m. June 2, 2008
What this judge did makes me so sick that my heart is ready to cry. It would be
better if a millstone were placed around her neck and she be cast into the sea
than it will be for her on judgement day.
Will the good folks in Texas please get this kidnapper off the bench asap? I hope so. In my eyes she is a total fool lacking in wisdom.
May God have mercy on these children. May God bless FLDS.
Will the good folks in Texas please get this kidnapper off the bench asap? I hope so. In my eyes she is a total fool lacking in wisdom.
May God have mercy on these children. May God bless FLDS.
Reality Check | 9:15 a.m. June 2, 2008
Interesting.
Attorneys for the FLDS mothers are negotiating on Sunday afternoon according to the Media ( the above article ).
Attorneys for the FLDS mothers are agreeing to more restrictions in the agreement on the conditions under which children will be temporarily returned according to the Media ( the above article ).
The changes being made are moving the agreement closer to what Judge W. wanted to see in it last Friday according to the media.
Apparently the FLDS's attorneys agree with the Texas Supreme Court opinion that this law suit for permanent custody of the children will continue even with temp custody with the mothers.
Apparently the FLDS's attorneys agree with the Texas Supreme Court's opinion that texas law allows Judge W. to place restrictions on the FLDS mothers, fathers and the children before, during, and after the kids are temporarily returned to the moms.
Apparently the FLDS's attorney's do not believe the ignorance and/or propaganda being put out by some folks on these boards.
Small children will be returned for now as I and many others wanted but the FLDS propaganda that this case was ended by the very limited appeals court decision is NOT THE TRUTH.
Attorneys for the FLDS mothers are negotiating on Sunday afternoon according to the Media ( the above article ).
Attorneys for the FLDS mothers are agreeing to more restrictions in the agreement on the conditions under which children will be temporarily returned according to the Media ( the above article ).
The changes being made are moving the agreement closer to what Judge W. wanted to see in it last Friday according to the media.
Apparently the FLDS's attorneys agree with the Texas Supreme Court opinion that this law suit for permanent custody of the children will continue even with temp custody with the mothers.
Apparently the FLDS's attorneys agree with the Texas Supreme Court's opinion that texas law allows Judge W. to place restrictions on the FLDS mothers, fathers and the children before, during, and after the kids are temporarily returned to the moms.
Apparently the FLDS's attorney's do not believe the ignorance and/or propaganda being put out by some folks on these boards.
Small children will be returned for now as I and many others wanted but the FLDS propaganda that this case was ended by the very limited appeals court decision is NOT THE TRUTH.
Concerned | 9:17 a.m. June 2, 2008
Wake up- restricting children access to the outside world and 'marrying
them off' to any sick old bat is not normal. Different??? What is going on
when a man takes a child, has sex an impregnates her?? In the 'real'
world it's called statutory rape. The state of Texas needs a wake up call.
Go right to the US Supreme court. To return children to the same people that
have abused them- the men for disgusting pedophilia and the women for
protecting the men. It seems like the FLDS has friends in high places.
This ain't little house on the prairie polygamy style.
PS- In NJ DYS does have the right to take children from a dangerous situation in the home. They don't needs an arrest warrant but can bring police to assist the removal of the child.
This ain't little house on the prairie polygamy style.
PS- In NJ DYS does have the right to take children from a dangerous situation in the home. They don't needs an arrest warrant but can bring police to assist the removal of the child.
To concerned | 9:25 a.m. June 2, 2008
There is no evidence that anybody is marrying "sick old bats." Even
if 5 girls, some of which are now adults, did become pregnant, the rate is
significantly lower than outside the ranch. Where are those statutory rape
charges? There is no evidence of abuse. Again there is no evidence and two
courts saw that clearly, even if you prefer gossip to facts.
To reality check | 9:32 a.m. June 2, 2008
The attorneys for the flds families, were not FLDS but from legal aid. They
wrote an agreement that the judge had no choice but to sign since those were the
only requirements she could negotiate based on the Supreme court ruling. Funny
that you write about propaganda when it is you that seems to only read the
gossip and ignore the legal documentation. You likely also ignored that a 29
year old was finally relisted as an adult. You seem to think it acceptable that
birth certificates and drivers licenses can be ignored by CPS.
Reality Check | 10:17 a.m. June 2, 2008
To: the individual using a false name to respond to "concerned" as
"TO concerned" ( almost certainly one of many false names this
individual is using to attack any argument they wish to discredit ).
Included in this response by "To concerned" was a statement tacked on at the end which is simply FALSE.
Apparently who ever is posting under the name "To concerned" is hoping if he/she repeats false statements often enough the public will believe it. This is an old propaganda trick.
-------------------
"To concerned" wrote at: | 9:25 a.m. June 2, 2008
...
There is no evidence of abuse. Again there is no evidence and two courts saw that clearly, even if you prefer gossip to facts.
------------------
The Appeals court did NOT find there was "NO EVIDENCE" of abuse in this case.
The Texas Supreme Court did NOT find there was "NO EVIDENCE" of abuse in this case.
The attorney's for the FLDS did NOT EVEN CLAIM there was not enough evidence of abuse for the lawsuit to determine permanent custody of the children to continue as the Supreme Court explained in it's opinion.
The appeal was narrow applying to a single court order. Propaganda!!!!!!!!!
Included in this response by "To concerned" was a statement tacked on at the end which is simply FALSE.
Apparently who ever is posting under the name "To concerned" is hoping if he/she repeats false statements often enough the public will believe it. This is an old propaganda trick.
-------------------
"To concerned" wrote at: | 9:25 a.m. June 2, 2008
...
There is no evidence of abuse. Again there is no evidence and two courts saw that clearly, even if you prefer gossip to facts.
------------------
The Appeals court did NOT find there was "NO EVIDENCE" of abuse in this case.
The Texas Supreme Court did NOT find there was "NO EVIDENCE" of abuse in this case.
The attorney's for the FLDS did NOT EVEN CLAIM there was not enough evidence of abuse for the lawsuit to determine permanent custody of the children to continue as the Supreme Court explained in it's opinion.
The appeal was narrow applying to a single court order. Propaganda!!!!!!!!!
Reality Check | 10:53 a.m. June 2, 2008
To: the individual using a temporary false name to respond to "Reality
Check" as "TO reality check" ( almost certainly one of many false
names this individual is using to attack any argument they wish to discredit
).
Included in this response by "To reality check" was a statement at the begining which is apperently intended to confuse readers.
-------------
"To reality check" wrote at: | 9:32 a.m. June 2, 2008
...
The attorneys for the flds families, were not FLDS but from legal aid.
---------------
The attorneys represented the FLDS mothers.
The media does not identify the regligious affiliation of each attorney in the meetings and it does not matter.
They represent the FLDS mother.
The opinion of the Texas Supreme Court does not change based upon the religion practiced by the reader.
The meaning of the laws of the State of Texas does not change based upon the religion practiced by the reader.
This is either a smoke screen, or perhaps the individual posting under the temporary false name of "To reality check" believes only a TRUE BELIEVER of his/her own faith can negotiate on behalf of the FLDS mothers.
Included in this response by "To reality check" was a statement at the begining which is apperently intended to confuse readers.
-------------
"To reality check" wrote at: | 9:32 a.m. June 2, 2008
...
The attorneys for the flds families, were not FLDS but from legal aid.
---------------
The attorneys represented the FLDS mothers.
The media does not identify the regligious affiliation of each attorney in the meetings and it does not matter.
They represent the FLDS mother.
The opinion of the Texas Supreme Court does not change based upon the religion practiced by the reader.
The meaning of the laws of the State of Texas does not change based upon the religion practiced by the reader.
This is either a smoke screen, or perhaps the individual posting under the temporary false name of "To reality check" believes only a TRUE BELIEVER of his/her own faith can negotiate on behalf of the FLDS mothers.
Archon | 11:21 a.m. June 2, 2008
To 'Reality Check':
Both the Third Court of Appeals and the Texas Supreme Court ruled that the state failed to show that any more than five of the teenaged girls from the ranch had been 'abused.'
First of all, calling teen pregnancy 'abuse' is patently absurd. The CPS have no idea what the circumstances of those pregnancies were � and neither do YOU. If merely having a pregnant teenaged daughter constitutes 'abuse,' then 30-40% of the families in America are 'abusing' their daughters every year � because that's the percentage of 'underage' American girls who get pregnant.
Secondly, they found ONLY FIVE examples of such so-called 'abuse,' out of over 450 children � which is LOWER than the normal national rate for teen pregnancy, by the way � and yet they seized ALL the children. That's comparable to seizing the 90 nearest children from your neighborhood just because they find out YOUR teenaged daughter is pregnant.
Actually, it's more like doing so just because they FEEL LIKE IT, because Texas CPS seized all those children BEFORE they even proved that any teenagers were pregnant � and all on the basis of a BOGUS phone call.
Both the Third Court of Appeals and the Texas Supreme Court ruled that the state failed to show that any more than five of the teenaged girls from the ranch had been 'abused.'
First of all, calling teen pregnancy 'abuse' is patently absurd. The CPS have no idea what the circumstances of those pregnancies were � and neither do YOU. If merely having a pregnant teenaged daughter constitutes 'abuse,' then 30-40% of the families in America are 'abusing' their daughters every year � because that's the percentage of 'underage' American girls who get pregnant.
Secondly, they found ONLY FIVE examples of such so-called 'abuse,' out of over 450 children � which is LOWER than the normal national rate for teen pregnancy, by the way � and yet they seized ALL the children. That's comparable to seizing the 90 nearest children from your neighborhood just because they find out YOUR teenaged daughter is pregnant.
Actually, it's more like doing so just because they FEEL LIKE IT, because Texas CPS seized all those children BEFORE they even proved that any teenagers were pregnant � and all on the basis of a BOGUS phone call.
Freedom 2008 | 11:35 a.m. June 2, 2008
The way things are going by this action and the prison without trial in
Cuba(can't spell Guatanamo)and then the invasion of a foreign country.
Where will it end?
Interloper | 8:22 p.m. June 4, 2008
Disinformation won't do. So, let's correct it.
� At least 20 girls were impregnated as children. Most of them are now adults, with some having turned 18 recently. But, it is their age at the time of sexual abuse that matters.
� The appeals court ruled there was not sufficient evidence to remove all the children from YFZ Ranch. It did not say there was no evidence of child abuse at all.
� There is evidence in support of the existtence of both 'Sarah' and her alleged abuser.
The investigations continue. We wiill know more, including who is charged, in coming weeks.
� At least 20 girls were impregnated as children. Most of them are now adults, with some having turned 18 recently. But, it is their age at the time of sexual abuse that matters.
� The appeals court ruled there was not sufficient evidence to remove all the children from YFZ Ranch. It did not say there was no evidence of child abuse at all.
� There is evidence in support of the existtence of both 'Sarah' and her alleged abuser.
The investigations continue. We wiill know more, including who is charged, in coming weeks.
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Jimmy Stewart, a lawyer representing two FLDS mothers, talks to the media after leaving a closed door meeting in San Angelo, Texas, today, to discuss how to return children taken from the FLDS YFZ Ranch.
- House gives Real honor 5:53 p.m.
- Church museum has Latin exhibits 5:52 p.m.
- Streetcars could pump life into city 5:51 p.m.
- Sources: Josh Powell hires attorney 5:35 p.m.
- Gray dances away with dignity 5:17 p.m.
- Parlor games to enliven parties 5:17 p.m.
- Eco-friendly holiday packaging 5:17 p.m.
- Providing care for aging parents 5:17 p.m.
- Balance omega-6 acids 5:17 p.m.
- Share time, talents with others 5:09 p.m.
- Wet spot found in Powell's home
- Sources: Josh Powell hires attorney
- Y. opponent nearly smelled roses
- D-Will treats military families to party
- MWC looks better in basketball
- Maynor amazed by L.A. fans
- Pace happy not to be noticed
- High school football: All-region teams
- Jazz Extra: Starting 5
- Fun, easy gifts for the neighbors
- Palin signs books, chats with fans
178 - Nude bathers cited for lewdness151
- Gay-friendly curriculum phased out140
- LDS to emphasize helping needy125
- Jazz fall apart late at L.A.110
- Unga might enter NFL draft106
- BYU to wear royal blue uniforms100
- Disappearance called 'suspicious'96
- TV mom gives birth to 19th child95
- Sources: Josh Powell hires attorney84
David Rankin, one of Utah's youngest and ablest astrophotographers has...
There was a time when free shipping was rare. This holiday season, you...
First of all, to "20/20," how can you read newspapers and not understand...
Latest comments
BSU is inferior simply because they play in the WAC. They don't play anybody...
I find it silly to sit here & pass judgement on a man based upon your own...
"If CO2 is a green house gas and keeping in or trapping the radiant heat from...
This is all very suspicious.
Go Utes! That is awesome for your Seniors. I think you should have no problem...
read my lips: NO NEW TAXES OR THROW THEM OUT ! !!! They can deal with...
Korver is more than just a 3 point shooter. If you are playing the Jazz with...
Look to see who is on the floor at the END of the next three games. Tonight...
I think this was such a great program to implement in this community at...
Not the best intro. Please stop with the Max Hall stuff. He said...
Advertisements
You are so right!It is hard to believe that people are actually wanting to send these precious little children back out to the compound so they can be molested by these dirty old men hiding behind their "religion".I didn't realize that being a pervert was called a religion now.The men keep saying this is not a compound,but when it is behind high fences and is patroled by men on 4 wheelers/with rifles---it ain't no ranch!