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Texas judge refuses to sign order to return FLDS children
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er Pico | 8:49 a.m. May 31, 2008
er supreme court
BobP | 8:52 a.m. May 31, 2008
Judge Walthey is taking a dog in the manger attitude to the appeal courts order.
We also know what gender of dog she is.
Sandy | 9:04 a.m. May 31, 2008
I am for Judge Walther. If the children are allow to go back, then the
investigation still needs to be done on all of the children. The FLDS needs to
comply with the law on this investigation. If they aren't guilty of
anything, then they shouldn't mind if the authorities continues to see if
all the children are in a safe environment. The purpose of taking the children
in the first place was to protect the children from any furthur abuse.
What's more disturbing to me, is the fact that practicing polygamy is
against the law. It was made a ruling by the groverment in the early
1900's. Why are these group of people allow to do this today (2008).
These men that run this camp are not prophets of God. The God I know would
never say this is right to marry young girls of 14. That is a man made law, not
God. I am also distrubed by all of those mothers that are allowing their
daughters to be married at such a young age. Shame on them. They are just as
guilty as Jessop and Jeffs. They should not be allow to have their children
back.
Comments continue below
Legal Age | 9:05 a.m. May 31, 2008
A few years ago it was legal for an adult to marry a 14 year old on the state of
Texas, with parental consent. As soon as the FLDS moved to Texas, they upped
the legal age to 16, with parental consent.
Since the FLDS cannot legally take on more than one wife, any of these young marriages default to statutory rape. Therefore, the only difference here is polygamy. A monogamous man can marry a 16 year old on the state of Texas, with parental consent. People keep saying it isn't about polygamy, but as more and more evidence is presented, it looks like it just might boil down to the issue of polygamy.
For those people who are going to state the obvious in response to this, here it is: The 13 year old is obviously illegal in both cases. Any 14 year olds after the law changed are also illegal. If the parents didn't consent, then that it is illegal. The whole brainwashed into marriage nonsense is no more then the women choosing to take the counsel of their leaders. A war draft is a better example of being forced into something.
Since the FLDS cannot legally take on more than one wife, any of these young marriages default to statutory rape. Therefore, the only difference here is polygamy. A monogamous man can marry a 16 year old on the state of Texas, with parental consent. People keep saying it isn't about polygamy, but as more and more evidence is presented, it looks like it just might boil down to the issue of polygamy.
For those people who are going to state the obvious in response to this, here it is: The 13 year old is obviously illegal in both cases. Any 14 year olds after the law changed are also illegal. If the parents didn't consent, then that it is illegal. The whole brainwashed into marriage nonsense is no more then the women choosing to take the counsel of their leaders. A war draft is a better example of being forced into something.
Barbara Walthers... | 9:09 a.m. May 31, 2008
...looks pretty vicious.
To: Chuck | 9:17 a.m. May 31, 2008
Then let the court go after each individual case. That is how it has worked
since this country began.
Same Judge | 9:22 a.m. May 31, 2008
Looks like this judge is behaving in the same manner she did when she authorized
the warrant in the first place.
Old Geezer in Vegas | 9:44 a.m. May 31, 2008
This Judge is way out of control but I really think that the higher courts will
iron out this part of the problem out early next week.
The real problem for Texas will be when they try to start the criminal proceedings. The initial military style raid was based on �hear say� evidence from a known adversary of the FLDS. The sheriff has made public statements to the effect that he�d been planning a raid like this for four years but didn�t have any proof. The �call� was all the proof he needed. He knew that the call was probably a hoax because he�d talked with Dale Barlow in Arizona before the raid but went ahead with it on the pretence of looking for Dale Barlow an the mythical Sara.
I feel sure that the judge again overstepped her authority by telling the raiding party to confiscate all the papers, computers and pictures they felt pertinent from every building including homes, school and their temple.
She then authorized the wholesale roundup of �All women and children� to be held for questioning and the confiscation of all their cell phones.
CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS FROM THE GET GO.
Valid Evidence?
The real problem for Texas will be when they try to start the criminal proceedings. The initial military style raid was based on �hear say� evidence from a known adversary of the FLDS. The sheriff has made public statements to the effect that he�d been planning a raid like this for four years but didn�t have any proof. The �call� was all the proof he needed. He knew that the call was probably a hoax because he�d talked with Dale Barlow in Arizona before the raid but went ahead with it on the pretence of looking for Dale Barlow an the mythical Sara.
I feel sure that the judge again overstepped her authority by telling the raiding party to confiscate all the papers, computers and pictures they felt pertinent from every building including homes, school and their temple.
She then authorized the wholesale roundup of �All women and children� to be held for questioning and the confiscation of all their cell phones.
CIVIL RIGHTS VIOLATIONS FROM THE GET GO.
Valid Evidence?
Nutjob | 9:48 a.m. May 31, 2008
Walthers and CPS went into this with one objective: to break the FLDS
individually and as a community. Now they all have egg on their faces. At
least CPS had the sense to try to implement the TX Supreme Court's ruling.
Barbara Walthers seems to be a bit behind the times.
If the CPS -- the government entity that has the mandate to protect the kids -- has worked out a deal with the FLDS, why in heaven's name is Walthers throwing a temper tantrum about it? Does she think she knows better than the FLDS parents AND the CPS when it comes to these kids? Pride, arrogance, and ill temper -- who elected this woman? And WHY is she still on this case?
If the CPS -- the government entity that has the mandate to protect the kids -- has worked out a deal with the FLDS, why in heaven's name is Walthers throwing a temper tantrum about it? Does she think she knows better than the FLDS parents AND the CPS when it comes to these kids? Pride, arrogance, and ill temper -- who elected this woman? And WHY is she still on this case?
transplant | 9:53 a.m. May 31, 2008
Signed agreement or not without the DNA there is no proof of whose kids are
whose. I think Judge Walther is stalling until those reports are available. I
don't blame her for that. The kids are safe where they are for now.
The higher courts did not say it was in error to remove the children that were being abused. The underage mothers. Nor that they had to be returned. There is a criminal investigation being done regarding the source of their abuse. On the ranch.
I question why it has taken so long to get Jeff's DNA? It's always been known that there are children on the ranch with his last name. Did he refuse before the warrent? Lots of details still unknown.
The big disagreement in the courts was the one address argument. That's what CPS had to consider at the time. The courts said it didn't apply.
I don't see how the state can demand oversight for the children who have no known abuse records. For those girls,the alleged victims of a crime, absolutely.
The higher courts did not say it was in error to remove the children that were being abused. The underage mothers. Nor that they had to be returned. There is a criminal investigation being done regarding the source of their abuse. On the ranch.
I question why it has taken so long to get Jeff's DNA? It's always been known that there are children on the ranch with his last name. Did he refuse before the warrent? Lots of details still unknown.
The big disagreement in the courts was the one address argument. That's what CPS had to consider at the time. The courts said it didn't apply.
I don't see how the state can demand oversight for the children who have no known abuse records. For those girls,the alleged victims of a crime, absolutely.
re: transplant | 10:05 a.m. May 31, 2008
The kids are safe where they are now?! Are you for real. Do you know what
the track record for Texas CPS and kids in fosterage in Texas is? I suggest you
get some facts before you make such absurd statements. What does DNA have to do
with this. What does Jeffs have to do with this? he's in prison,
probalbly for life. Even the news stories that mention him in the same breath,
make clear one has nothing to do with the other.
Sokol | 10:08 a.m. May 31, 2008
In many instances, for violation of parental rights this judge needs to face
jail time. These inept, unqualified, black robed dictators, that are inflicting
duress, need to be punished.
Sorry Betty | 10:18 a.m. May 31, 2008
Judge Walther shows that she is not strong but an incompetent female judge
failing to apply the Supreme Court ruling.
Yes, I am female but remain embarrassed by her gross incompetence bordering on contempt of court.
Yes, I am female but remain embarrassed by her gross incompetence bordering on contempt of court.
Old Geezer in Vegas | 10:20 a.m. May 31, 2008
Mention was made of the FBI joining in the investigation. Did you notice that
they sort of piggybacked in on the raid using Judge
Walther�s warrant? They couldn�t get
this type of warrant from a federal judge!!! Constitutinal grounds
wouldn�t allow it!!
On walther | 10:19 a.m. May 31, 2008
Had this been a bunch of black inner city girls, Walther would have ignored the
case.
Anonymous | 10:24 a.m. May 31, 2008
"her own... version", which she said would apply to all the FLDS
children.
------------------
till now the courts have only addressed the appeal of 38 parents. Not ALL the parents. If the 38 signatures are forthcoming only their children will have to be released. All the rest of the parents will have to go thru the same process and sign an agreement is my thinking. Again this would likely allow for the time for the DNA results. Time is critical here.
To Pico: "foot-dragging, sand bagging" This is a tactic used by any good lawyer for the benefit of a client. If that is what she is doing, you and I agree about that, her motive is to maximize the protection of innocent kids. Look at your own finger pointing. One finger pointed at her three pointed back at yourself. Vendetta and disgrace are about you.
------------------
till now the courts have only addressed the appeal of 38 parents. Not ALL the parents. If the 38 signatures are forthcoming only their children will have to be released. All the rest of the parents will have to go thru the same process and sign an agreement is my thinking. Again this would likely allow for the time for the DNA results. Time is critical here.
To Pico: "foot-dragging, sand bagging" This is a tactic used by any good lawyer for the benefit of a client. If that is what she is doing, you and I agree about that, her motive is to maximize the protection of innocent kids. Look at your own finger pointing. One finger pointed at her three pointed back at yourself. Vendetta and disgrace are about you.
Supreme vote only 4-3 | 10:30 a.m. May 31, 2008
The Judge has been ordered by the Supreme Court to allow the CPS investigation
of rape to continue, so I applaud her for not taking her duty lightly.
Leave the ninety and nine to save the one child that may have been, or may be raped if this cult resumes operation.
Leave the ninety and nine to save the one child that may have been, or may be raped if this cult resumes operation.
Clare | 10:29 a.m. May 31, 2008
The people who should be held responsible are the evil men who do these things
to these young girls. Where are they? They are the ones who should be put in
jail if they are guilty.
My only concern with the children being sent back to their mothers is that there is a very high chance they will teach, allow, and encourage their young daughters to enter into these 'spiritual marriages.' They are totally taking away their agency to choose the life they want. These girls should be allowed to see the world and make their own judgements. If the children were required to go to public schools that would probably help with the issues I have raised above. If what they believe in is so good, why do they have to control these young peoples lives? They should have the right to choose, and at a reasonable age, they can certainly continue to practice to their religious lifestyle. I believe what they practice is wrong, but I also believe they have a right to choose their own destinies.
My only concern with the children being sent back to their mothers is that there is a very high chance they will teach, allow, and encourage their young daughters to enter into these 'spiritual marriages.' They are totally taking away their agency to choose the life they want. These girls should be allowed to see the world and make their own judgements. If the children were required to go to public schools that would probably help with the issues I have raised above. If what they believe in is so good, why do they have to control these young peoples lives? They should have the right to choose, and at a reasonable age, they can certainly continue to practice to their religious lifestyle. I believe what they practice is wrong, but I also believe they have a right to choose their own destinies.
Student | 10:30 a.m. May 31, 2008
Judge Walther is trying to have her cake and eat it too. On one hand she has
been commanded to vacate her original order, which means returning to square
one and being forced to use only lawful means to prosecute crimes.
But since she still actually has the children in captivity, and has coerced the parents to be scattered over hundreds of miles of Texas, she feels that she has one last chance to exact punishment on the families, knowing that she has them on the run, and that they can't easily regroup.
Even in San Angelo, Texas, opinions are mixed on these developments. I found these two opposing views on the web site of the local paper:
"Jesus Gonzalez said he wouldn't mind if the sect residents return to the ranch near the city. "As long as they don't bother me," Gonzalez said, "it's not a problem. It's a free country."
"I wonder how much you had to pay the Supreme Court to get your rulings.
You make me sick to my stomach."
But since she still actually has the children in captivity, and has coerced the parents to be scattered over hundreds of miles of Texas, she feels that she has one last chance to exact punishment on the families, knowing that she has them on the run, and that they can't easily regroup.
Even in San Angelo, Texas, opinions are mixed on these developments. I found these two opposing views on the web site of the local paper:
"Jesus Gonzalez said he wouldn't mind if the sect residents return to the ranch near the city. "As long as they don't bother me," Gonzalez said, "it's not a problem. It's a free country."
"I wonder how much you had to pay the Supreme Court to get your rulings.
You make me sick to my stomach."
Ray | 10:31 a.m. May 31, 2008
I still think someone should bring a Ouija Board into the courtroom to show this
plain idiot judge just how impossible it is to predict the future harm to
anybody!
Anonymous | 10:31 a.m. May 31, 2008
I think this is a very tough case.
1. There almost certainly are some women and teenagers who really WANT to leave the FLDS or YFZ. The mass nature of the hearings would be one reason the public does not know about them. Another would be that family court hearings, especially if there are abuse allegations are often closed to protect the privacy and safety of people involved. Our lovely young couple who are still monogamous with the 3 kids and the sister / sister-in-law who is Jeffs' bride get to be poster children, but HOPEFULLY other victims get more privacy.
2. The most dangerous part of an abusive relationship is often when someone tries to leave. It's dangerous for the people involved. It's dangerous for people trying to intervene. This is CPS experience in general, whether the FLDS, crankheads or MD's committing incest. This is probably one reason for the tank. Of course in the FLDS case there could be plenty of psychological abuse and it's not obvious the tank would help about that, but...
1. There almost certainly are some women and teenagers who really WANT to leave the FLDS or YFZ. The mass nature of the hearings would be one reason the public does not know about them. Another would be that family court hearings, especially if there are abuse allegations are often closed to protect the privacy and safety of people involved. Our lovely young couple who are still monogamous with the 3 kids and the sister / sister-in-law who is Jeffs' bride get to be poster children, but HOPEFULLY other victims get more privacy.
2. The most dangerous part of an abusive relationship is often when someone tries to leave. It's dangerous for the people involved. It's dangerous for people trying to intervene. This is CPS experience in general, whether the FLDS, crankheads or MD's committing incest. This is probably one reason for the tank. Of course in the FLDS case there could be plenty of psychological abuse and it's not obvious the tank would help about that, but...
Dave38 | 10:34 a.m. May 31, 2008
View this article's "Story Photos" for great photographs from San
Angelo taken by Deseret News photographer August Miller. See photos of Judge
Walther and other key participants.
No Justice | 10:36 a.m. May 31, 2008
We do not have a justice system, we only have a legal system.
No one is ever found innocent, only not guilty.
No one is ever found innocent, only not guilty.
Doug from Washington | 10:37 a.m. May 31, 2008
The persecution of the FLDS in Texas may have only just begun. I read elsewhere
that the FLDS have just picked up 300 voter registration forms. Since they live
in tiny county, the FLDS vote could easily swing the vote for or against
sheriffs, judges, and others. Voting could ignite a violent backlash that makes
the illegal raid look mild by comparison. The Texas government has already
shown their eagerness to break the law in order to bring about a desired
outcome. Many of the people have already shown their unconditional support of
Texas as long as they persecute an unpopular minority.
Rescuing the kids from polygamy was just a battle cry of politicians intended to foment populist bigotry against the FLDS and shift attention away from their own egregious abuses of power.
The story is far from over.
Rescuing the kids from polygamy was just a battle cry of politicians intended to foment populist bigotry against the FLDS and shift attention away from their own egregious abuses of power.
The story is far from over.
Anonymous | 10:39 a.m. May 31, 2008
Evidence?
--Remember the issue during the raid of some girls saying things like "Daddy what am I supposed to say?" What if "Daddy"is really the husband in some spiritual marriage? I have not reviewed the bishop's record, but I predict that the number by which the count of teenage girls exceeds teenage boys will turn out to be approximately the number of "spiritual marriages." These girls are not all pregnant or married to Warren Jeffs, but they are probably in spiritual marriages to other people or headed that way.
--I am still not sure all of these points justify the mass trauma of removing all the children under 5, but the FLDS are hoist on their own petard here. If the CPS workers were not confident of identities based on the behavior of people at the ranch, pure bureaucratic inertia would sweep everyone up and sort them out later.
--The judge and the lawyers haggling could lengthen the kids stay in custody. I support pretty strict conditions and litigating to reduce restrictions as this case progresses.
--Criminal cases might be one appropriate outcome, but sometimes focusing on that can be a barrier tousing other help appropriately
--Remember the issue during the raid of some girls saying things like "Daddy what am I supposed to say?" What if "Daddy"is really the husband in some spiritual marriage? I have not reviewed the bishop's record, but I predict that the number by which the count of teenage girls exceeds teenage boys will turn out to be approximately the number of "spiritual marriages." These girls are not all pregnant or married to Warren Jeffs, but they are probably in spiritual marriages to other people or headed that way.
--I am still not sure all of these points justify the mass trauma of removing all the children under 5, but the FLDS are hoist on their own petard here. If the CPS workers were not confident of identities based on the behavior of people at the ranch, pure bureaucratic inertia would sweep everyone up and sort them out later.
--The judge and the lawyers haggling could lengthen the kids stay in custody. I support pretty strict conditions and litigating to reduce restrictions as this case progresses.
--Criminal cases might be one appropriate outcome, but sometimes focusing on that can be a barrier tousing other help appropriately
COSMO | 10:51 a.m. May 31, 2008
Re:betty; did you say strong women,or incompetent twits, with 16 steamer trunks
of emotional baggage!
Re:Concerned;What proof? The State Supreme Court said Nadda! Do you have more factual data at your disposal, than they?
Re:Sandy; The FLDS shouldn't mind their lives being probed by a bunch of Nazis? May we probe your perfect life, I am quite sure that you won't mind being continually investigated, we all know that you
are guilty of something, untill you prove youself innocent. Oh wait, that is what is done in Marxist
and Fascist Nations. Maybe you should move there, you would be more happy!
Re:Concerned;What proof? The State Supreme Court said Nadda! Do you have more factual data at your disposal, than they?
Re:Sandy; The FLDS shouldn't mind their lives being probed by a bunch of Nazis? May we probe your perfect life, I am quite sure that you won't mind being continually investigated, we all know that you
are guilty of something, untill you prove youself innocent. Oh wait, that is what is done in Marxist
and Fascist Nations. Maybe you should move there, you would be more happy!
michaelh | 10:51 a.m. May 31, 2008
One Million dollars a day per child in punitive damages should motivate them.
Treat each family separately | 10:53 a.m. May 31, 2008
I agree each family should be treated as a separate family. Since they are all
related, they would be considered one family.
Therefore the judge did the right thing by taking all of the children. They are one family, treat them all the same.
I still want to see proof that the children are being abused by the judge & CPS.
The older kids will see their time away as a vacation. The younger ones will probably forget their mommy of the week. These kids will be better off in a home that doesnt promote sex with children.
Pro FLDS'ers, be prepared to eat crow. The truth will be told.
Judge Walther, you rock. Continue on as a pit bull for these kids. You got them, don't let go.
Therefore the judge did the right thing by taking all of the children. They are one family, treat them all the same.
I still want to see proof that the children are being abused by the judge & CPS.
The older kids will see their time away as a vacation. The younger ones will probably forget their mommy of the week. These kids will be better off in a home that doesnt promote sex with children.
Pro FLDS'ers, be prepared to eat crow. The truth will be told.
Judge Walther, you rock. Continue on as a pit bull for these kids. You got them, don't let go.
Anonymous | 10:54 a.m. May 31, 2008
Im glad the judge is dragging her feet.
Maybe those kids will have one more day of safety before they are returned to the nuts.
Come get to know some of these people, you will see that they aren't lily white.
Maybe those kids will have one more day of safety before they are returned to the nuts.
Come get to know some of these people, you will see that they aren't lily white.
MemorytoDisk | 11:14 a.m. May 31, 2008
I commented once that most of the Utah Mormons commenting here are lurking
believers of plural marriage because church founder, Joseph Smith, introduced
and practiced plural marriage. The off-shoot FLDS branch is just a continuation
of what church founder Joseph Smith started which has finally come full circle
to a calamitous event of Texas shouldering much damage & loss because of
Utah & AZ sloughing over the issue for decades. I agree with Pat's
comment above. FLDS is a Brainwashed & Secretive Society which needs
undercover work to break through the stealthy withdrawn society who condones
underage girls to marry older men. The picture of Warren Jeff kissing his very
young bride is Sickening...
Southern Utah Resident | 11:23 a.m. May 31, 2008
This case is far from over. Now that the perversion in the FLDS community led by
the convicted felon and confirmed PERVERT WARREN JEFFS is out in the open public
scrutiny will NOT allow this to continue.
Where is the justice for the young girls that are raped by the old men?
Where is the justice for the young boys that are abandoned in the streets?
Where is the justice for blatant welfare fraud that takes place in this community?
Where is the justice for the young girls that are raped by the old men?
Where is the justice for the young boys that are abandoned in the streets?
Where is the justice for blatant welfare fraud that takes place in this community?
Babies having babies | 11:27 a.m. May 31, 2008
This Judge is doing her best to comply with the Supreme Court.
Rape just doen't happen overnight, the baby must be raised and taught that she will give her life away in sexual servitude.
Rape just doen't happen overnight, the baby must be raised and taught that she will give her life away in sexual servitude.
about legal age | 11:27 a.m. May 31, 2008
The problem with your assumption rests on the fact that cps repeatedly ignored
legal documents. Believing a girl to be 12 when she is actually 15 still
remains an issue. That has not changed.
sorry memorytodisc | 11:30 a.m. May 31, 2008
I am posting an am ex-lds, anti-mormon and agnostic. I still believe Judge
Walther to be grossly incompetent.
Danny | 11:38 a.m. May 31, 2008
Important reminder to walther, not "your honor".:
"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". Brace up little children that want their mommies, this judge is in for the long haul.
"Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned". Brace up little children that want their mommies, this judge is in for the long haul.
Bruce | 11:49 a.m. May 31, 2008
As an inactive LDS and an ex-Texan, I know well the ugly things that are said
about anyone who is "different" behind doors in rural Texas towns.
This judge is a member of the good-old-boy mentality down there.
It may be that she is intentionally delaying..hoping the DNA results will somehow vindicate her earlier decisions. It won't, of course, but she has embarrassed CPS, the governor, and herself and will do anything to try and save face at this point.
Ain't gonna happen...
This judge is a member of the good-old-boy mentality down there.
It may be that she is intentionally delaying..hoping the DNA results will somehow vindicate her earlier decisions. It won't, of course, but she has embarrassed CPS, the governor, and herself and will do anything to try and save face at this point.
Ain't gonna happen...
Old Geezer in Vegas | 11:53 a.m. May 31, 2008
One of the main problems I see on these comment boards is that a large amount of
people are basing their views on
�evidence� they saw on 48 Hrs, Nancy
Grace, etc. That mostly consists of interviews with ex-FLDS people like Flora
Jessop, Carolyn Jessop and Elissa Wall who are making big bucks from not only
the interviews but from the increased sales of their books.
transplant | 11:58 a.m. May 31, 2008
To Pico: from the sltrib; "Walther declined, saying the state still had to
work out logistics of how to hand the children back to their parents.
"The last thing any of us wants is for a child to get misplaced in any of this," Walther said
---------
She wants it done right. It's not a situation where a quicky solution is appropriate.
"The last thing any of us wants is for a child to get misplaced in any of this," Walther said
---------
She wants it done right. It's not a situation where a quicky solution is appropriate.
re: Legal Age | 11:59 a.m. May 31, 2008
The 14-year-old marriage age is a left-over from an earlier era. The original
intent of that law was to provide families an option if a young girl got
pregnant or wanted to marry earlier than usual. No doubt abuse occurred, but
the law was designed to help families help their girls.
The FLDS case is different. In this case you have an entire community that tacitly supports child-rape. Young girls are assigned to be married to old men. Even if the numbers are relatively small, everyone in the community knows it is occurring and *no one* is speaking out to protect the young girls. The legal guilt belongs to a few. The moral guilt belongs to all.
You can call that religion, but the rest of the world calls it rape. We are a democracy. Pedophiles have been over-ruled through a democratic process. Child rape is against the law. Let's be clear about that.
The fact that sometimes young girls choose to get marry young does not excuse the practice of "assigning" a under-age girl to be the 50th wife of an old man. The latter is morally disgusting for all the wide-eyed claims of purity at the ranch.
The FLDS case is different. In this case you have an entire community that tacitly supports child-rape. Young girls are assigned to be married to old men. Even if the numbers are relatively small, everyone in the community knows it is occurring and *no one* is speaking out to protect the young girls. The legal guilt belongs to a few. The moral guilt belongs to all.
You can call that religion, but the rest of the world calls it rape. We are a democracy. Pedophiles have been over-ruled through a democratic process. Child rape is against the law. Let's be clear about that.
The fact that sometimes young girls choose to get marry young does not excuse the practice of "assigning" a under-age girl to be the 50th wife of an old man. The latter is morally disgusting for all the wide-eyed claims of purity at the ranch.
West Texan | 12:07 p.m. May 31, 2008
Go Judge Walther.
Thank heaven, someone has the guts to bring down these child abusers.
Thank heaven, someone has the guts to bring down these child abusers.
wrz | 12:06 p.m. May 31, 2008
Arrest Judge Walther and throw her in jail for thumbing her nose at a court
order.
She is in violation of a lawful requirement just as much if not more than any resident of the FLDS Ranch.
She is in violation of a lawful requirement just as much if not more than any resident of the FLDS Ranch.
Anonymous | 12:12 p.m. May 31, 2008
Now that's a telling example of Texas style legalities.
Obviously, this judge and President Bush have much in common, right down to how they handle business...
Make a decision, stand stubbornly by it, when it all goes to hell-in-a-handbasket, get more stubborn, and finally, when consensus goes against you (in this case an appellate court rules otherwise), simply throw a tizzy fit (which Bush is known to do quite often) and walk away from the deal believing that somehow, it will take care of itself.
This judge should be impeached, just like the president (and the vice president) should have been long ago.
Obviously, this judge and President Bush have much in common, right down to how they handle business...
Make a decision, stand stubbornly by it, when it all goes to hell-in-a-handbasket, get more stubborn, and finally, when consensus goes against you (in this case an appellate court rules otherwise), simply throw a tizzy fit (which Bush is known to do quite often) and walk away from the deal believing that somehow, it will take care of itself.
This judge should be impeached, just like the president (and the vice president) should have been long ago.
Not about polygamy | 12:17 p.m. May 31, 2008
This is not about polygamy. Mainstream society tolerates all sorts of
co-habitational weirdness. This is also not about religious tolerance.
This is about calling an entire community on the practice of pushing young girls into sexual relationships with old men. That they attempt to give it the aura of legitimacy by calling it "spiritual marriage" is irrelevant. It is still community-sponsored pedophilia with parents willingly offering up their daughters and on-lookers standing by silently to let it happen.
It reminds me of a scene in the book "Watership Down". The rabbits find a lovely haven with clean, well-kept living spaces, plenty of food, even a stimulating cultural life. The catch? Everyone tacitly agreed to ignore the fact that a few rabbits would "disappear" onto the farmer's table from time to time. Speaking out about the horror brought a violent response and eventual expulsion from the community.
All is lovely at the ranch. You just hope you aren't called to sacrifice your own child. If you do, you can count on the community to ignore the abuse as fervently as ever you ignored the abuse against the children of others. Statements like "It's only a small number" are chilling.
This is about calling an entire community on the practice of pushing young girls into sexual relationships with old men. That they attempt to give it the aura of legitimacy by calling it "spiritual marriage" is irrelevant. It is still community-sponsored pedophilia with parents willingly offering up their daughters and on-lookers standing by silently to let it happen.
It reminds me of a scene in the book "Watership Down". The rabbits find a lovely haven with clean, well-kept living spaces, plenty of food, even a stimulating cultural life. The catch? Everyone tacitly agreed to ignore the fact that a few rabbits would "disappear" onto the farmer's table from time to time. Speaking out about the horror brought a violent response and eventual expulsion from the community.
All is lovely at the ranch. You just hope you aren't called to sacrifice your own child. If you do, you can count on the community to ignore the abuse as fervently as ever you ignored the abuse against the children of others. Statements like "It's only a small number" are chilling.
wrz | 12:17 p.m. May 31, 2008
"I question why it has taken so long to get Jeff's DNA?"
Jeffs should not have to give DNA... which, in my view, would tantamount to requiring Jeffs to testifying against himself. Which is a violation US Constitution's bill of Rights.
But the court doesn't seem to let that worry them, since they illegally took the children from their homes in the first place.
What's going on in Texas?
Jeffs should not have to give DNA... which, in my view, would tantamount to requiring Jeffs to testifying against himself. Which is a violation US Constitution's bill of Rights.
But the court doesn't seem to let that worry them, since they illegally took the children from their homes in the first place.
What's going on in Texas?
MidwestGal | 12:19 p.m. May 31, 2008
This is a HUGE lawsuit waiting to happen. Something similar (though not to this
degree by any means) happened at Heartland Christian Ranch in MO a few years
ago. Over 100 children were removed due to abuse allegations. While the children
were returned a couple of days later, the director of the juvenile office along
with some other officers were sued. Heartland won over $8,000,000. Now Pastor
Charles Sharp, owner of the ranch, along with some parents of these children is
suing some state workers. Before Texas raided the FLDS ranch was raided,
officials should have done some research. All Texas will end up doing is
shooting themselves in the foot. I'm not saying I have all of the answers,
but they should have done things differently.
FALLACY-HUNTER | 12:21 p.m. May 31, 2008
==
NEW LIGHT (MY CLARITY OF MIND):
THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT DID NOT UPHELD THE TEXAS CPS RAID [cost of $ 10,000.00 ten million dollars or more], BUT
BASED ON HEARSAY EVIDENCE, THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT DID UPHELD THE LOWER COURT: "POLYGAMY SLIPPERY-SLOPE ARGUMENT AND DECISION."
* DISCLAIMER: Continuation of my literary work/efforts...fact/fiction...
quasi-fact/quasi-fiction...draft...outline...etc.
Authorship/Moral Rights: LSAT STUDENT OF FALLACIES, Debater or
FALLACY HUNTER
SIGNED: RECKIPS
==
NEW LIGHT (MY CLARITY OF MIND):
THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT DID NOT UPHELD THE TEXAS CPS RAID [cost of $ 10,000.00 ten million dollars or more], BUT
BASED ON HEARSAY EVIDENCE, THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT DID UPHELD THE LOWER COURT: "POLYGAMY SLIPPERY-SLOPE ARGUMENT AND DECISION."
* DISCLAIMER: Continuation of my literary work/efforts...fact/fiction...
quasi-fact/quasi-fiction...draft...outline...etc.
Authorship/Moral Rights: LSAT STUDENT OF FALLACIES, Debater or
FALLACY HUNTER
SIGNED: RECKIPS
==
The satanic judge | 12:22 p.m. May 31, 2008
What part of the Texas Supreme Court decision does Barbara Walthers not
understand. She should be arrested for contempt of court immediately. Unlike her
trumped up case we have concrete evidence against her for contempt of court. De
Judge now becomes de convict. It has happened many times before were the judge
ends up behind bars.
Texas needs to act immediately on this.
Texas needs to act immediately on this.
Utah is where it's at. | 12:28 p.m. May 31, 2008
What about the 30,000 polygamist that live right here in Utah. You would think
that polygamy started in Texas. They are transpalants from Utah. Warren Jeffs
went to Jordan High School.
Duke Lacrosse | 12:31 p.m. May 31, 2008
This is starting to look like the Duke case, this judge should have learned from
the prosecuting DA. You cannot create what isn't there.
annonymouse | 12:31 p.m. May 31, 2008
Don't y'all find it ironic that the governer of
Texas hasn't taken this case in hand. When he said cps was doing a good job, he was in over his head! Another thing, is anyone besides me curious as to why the great president of the United States of America has been silent in this matter? Great leadership! LOL!
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