Deseret News | Reader comments: Texas judge refuses to sign order to return FLDS children

Reader comments
Texas judge refuses to sign order to return FLDS children

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chuck keilman | 12:33 a.m. May 31, 2008

The court is obviously wrong on this ruling. We have proof that some of the children between 13 an 17 have been or are pregnant. That is rape in anybodies definition. The government should not be allowed to interfere with religious practices unless those practices are in clear violation of the law and this sect is in clear violation.

That judge is crazy! | 1:13 a.m. May 31, 2008

This judge is going to destroy this case - and her actions are going to make it impossible to prosecute the guilty. I'm betting Monday morning, the mothers will be in Austin - and they'll get their ruling with no restrictions all thanks to Judge Walthers.

Not all families are the same - they should be treated individually - the appeals court already found that and this judge has an obligation to follow their ruling.

The parents of the girl in the picture kissing Jeffs should have greater restrictions than say that nice two parent EMT trained family.

A 17 year old boy probably doesn't need a medical exam, but instead would need his educational needs monitored. A 12 year-old girl may need to meet with an offsite CPS worker-but maybe not a infant.

What if they want to leave FLDS and go live with family in Utah? Why can't they do that?

El Mugroso | 1:30 a.m. May 31, 2008

This is abuse of power.

No evidence, just suppositions and prejudice.

Depriving people of liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, is plainly unconstitutional.

The parents should sue the judge and the authorities, for damages.

Also, the way the authorities approached the community with tanks, heavy weapons, and trigger ready people clearly put the kids in danger of harm, but they don't see that.

Blind people following the dark visions of their own delusional ideas of grandeur.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 1:37 a.m. May 31, 2008

chuck you are assuming facts not in evidence. Please don't believe everything CPS says.

Conejo | 3:40 a.m. May 31, 2008

I say take Judge Walthers into custody for contempt of court. She obviously has her own agenda and refuses to believe what she has done was not warranted. Even after 2 separate courts have ruled otherwise. She still wants to treat the families as if they are in danger even though they are NOT! Throw her in jail and get a judge to oversee the case which doesn't care what religion these people practice as long as no law is being broken.

True American Hero | 3:45 a.m. May 31, 2008

Than You Your Honor

MDC | 3:58 a.m. May 31, 2008

The Supreme Court let the Appeals Court decision stand. The Appeals Court said quite clearly that if Judge Walther didn't vacate her decision within 10 days, it was automatically vacated. To me, that means all the FLDS parents must do is wait 10 days, then drive to pick up the children wherever they are.

If the CPS wants to conduct an investigation and put restrictions on the parents, then they must follow the law in individual cases separate and apart from the matter of the children's immediate return.

Am I correct?

If there are children in danger, then conduct the investigation normally. Use the tools provided by the laws of Texas. It is as if the CPS and Judge Walther don't believe in the law. CPS and the Judge don't seem to believe the rule-of-law is the best course of action. Judge Walther wears the garments of the law, but has the expedient heart of a criminal.

Janadele LDS Australia | 4:10 a.m. May 31, 2008

The Texas Supreme Court did allow Walther to place restrictions on the families while Child Protective Services continues an abuse investigation. Walther told attorneys to work on an agreement and get it signed by the 38 mothers who appealed... specific addresses for everyone in a household, unlimited access to the YFZ Ranch for caseworkers, the ability to remove children for interviews and order psychological and medical tests, and to not allow anyone in the custody case from leaving Texas while the investigation is ongoing.
Considering the seriousness of identifying underaged mothers and their abusers, Judge Walthers requests are reasonable.

getreal | 4:13 a.m. May 31, 2008

The abusers are CPS and Judge Walther, they are the folks that should be monitored!

just thinking II | 4:27 a.m. May 31, 2008

it is clear now why this case has become what it has. this judge is on a witch hunt. they have no evidence. the two courts of appeal stated that. the flds need to get serious with civil action.

Robin Bishop | 4:54 a.m. May 31, 2008

It is so revealing how tv broadcasters and everyone else outside that camp are saying it is all happening to protect the kids and not destroy a religion. And this is happening while NY is putting together an agreement on same sex marriage. Our entire culture is deeply invested in Plural marriage. They are just doing it serially.

Please sombody show me the abused children in that compound. Where are they? Rush to judgement.

Shame on Texas | 5:00 a.m. May 31, 2008

Another black eye for Texas. First Waco, now this. I am NOT a sympathizer with the FLDS. I do not agree with their choice of religion or lifestyle. I believe it is sick to have old men marry young girls. Having said that But Chuck, you are dead wrong. If there are laws broken, then they are bound by law to investigate CASE BY CASE. They can't round up a whole "neighborhood" or "congregation" because they suspect something. Remember the initial call came from a verified insane woman from Colorado and it was completely contrived. This whole trial has been wrong from the beginning. If DCFS had done it right and done a true investigation case by case they wouldn't have been shot down by two higher courts. Shame on Texas. Shame on this Rogue Judge who's pride won't let her follow a higher court order. We are still in America and we still believe in freedom, right? If we wanted Socialist Government Tyranny there are a myriad of countries you could move to if you like this kind of treatment in all aspects of your life.

God Help America. She is Hurting.

Unreal | 5:42 a.m. May 31, 2008

I stand shocked beyond words as I read these stories each day about what CPS and their puppit courts are doing and continue to try to do in Texas. It sure isnt the same United Stats I grew up in. And then people ask me why i moved to Southeast Asia. I'd say that at least one of the reasons is plain to see. God help America before its too late!!!

Ray | 5:54 a.m. May 31, 2008

Walther is drunk with power. What a poor isgrace to Texas!

WOW JUDGE !! | 5:56 a.m. May 31, 2008

Itï¿½s obvious that CPS found the right judge when the original raid was ordered. This judge needs a choke collar.

Lets not forget that if the FLDS did not have this practice of underage marriage that we would't be going through all of this. THEY MUST STOP THIS PRACTICE

Momotaro | 6:46 a.m. May 31, 2008

Could the judge be concerned about the civil suits and maneuvering in an attempt to avoid them?

St. George | 6:50 a.m. May 31, 2008

Porter Rockwell

Power hungery judge | 6:49 a.m. May 31, 2008

Judge Walther is wrapped up in the power and control she has and is unwilling to let go. She can't seem to admit she was wrong--pride & power are dangerous characteristics.

One person commented a few days ago, that once the state gets control of the children, the parents would have a hard time getting the them returned. That seems to be true here. Control is the issue.

markus | 6:50 a.m. May 31, 2008

This case will just roll on and on. Get yourselves some liquid and solids and enjoy the show.

There will be more twists and turns... with the outcomes ...

Horrified | 6:57 a.m. May 31, 2008

The FLDS may not believe in law suits but they need to work with the ACLU on this. And we all need get involved with the ACLU. There is a reason that the ACLU organization exists. As far as I can see they try to watch out for hate groups taking over society and breaking the rights of our constitution. We are all different, we don't all believe or live the same as the other but we have a right to live as we may as long as we don't break the law and hurt someone else. One or two FLDS books on the market should not be enough to cause such a horrific reaction. There has to be more proof. Proof, proof, proof. Some of the people that write in the comments on these articles sound like they are suffering from hysterical anxiety disorders. Really.

Ron in Texas | 7:02 a.m. May 31, 2008

One wonders what part of obeying the law, in this case the Texas Court of Appeals and State Supreme Court, Judge Walther doesn't understand. This is an excellent case study in the importance of selecting good judges who respect the law, and who are not prone to take it into their own hands as she has. Deciding that she can impose virtual house arrest on these families for an undetermined period of time is a gross abuse of judicial authority. This is vindictiveness on her part, and a clear show of partiality in this case. This is apparently being done in order to stall for time and gather evidence for a criminal case; the rules of criminal law should apply. Unless and until there is evidence that will support a criminal indictment, apart from the fact that some teen-age mothers exist in this sect, I don't see how the law can constitutionally restrict their movements. Frankly, I would think Texas would just as soon the whole lot of them moved back to the Arizona-Utah border.

COSMO | 7:03 a.m. May 31, 2008

I told you so, this Fascist Judge should be arrested, and tried for crimes against humanity.
She has cut a deal with the Texas CPS,in an effort to use the children as political bargaining chips.
Her arrogance in violating the State Supreme Court speaks volumes as to her contempt for the law.

Citadel | 7:07 a.m. May 31, 2008

FBI was helping in this raid according to earlier news media reports. This sounds more like Federal governments attempt to gain access into the ranch and church to seize potential information on child exploitation and welfare fraud which could be interstate. Arizona and Utah havenï¿½t raided FLDS residents probably in the hopes of FBI acquirng evidence they can use to prosecute Warren Jeffs for misuse of pension funds.

And if Texas has to pay damages to the FLDS families it wonï¿½t surprise me if the Federal government doesnï¿½t bail them out and foot the bill with taxpayer dollars.

Clear abuse of authority | 7:15 a.m. May 31, 2008

The state doesn't have proof that anyone was abused OR rape. Young pregnant girls only count as evidence of rape if you can also prove the individual who impregnated them was over a certain age, and thus far, I have not seen any reports of such proof. Besides, more than half those girls turned out to be neither pregnant nor underage.

Ignorant comments on articles like this are the reason why the justice system doesn't work in our country. I can't believe anyone can actually justify taking away every. single. child in an entire community, including children from families just VISITING from Utah. But those FLDS, they sure are weird, aren't they? They probably deserve it, right?

I also have trouble taking a judge seriously when she actually says "y'all" on the bench, and then storms off in a hissy.

Pat | 7:20 a.m. May 31, 2008

Trying to protect offspring of a group of ADULTS who do not want "protection" is a nightmare for this or any other judge!
This "group" has perfected secrecy and their behavior down to a science for DECACES in order to carry on unlawful practices under the noses of the rest of society.
Noone should care what they believe, nor how they carry on their beliefs UNLESS it involves illegality, which it DOES.
Part of their "beliefs" involve impregnating very young girls and the state HAS to care about that.
Utah does NOT care. Texas does. The battle is on!
Daily heartbreak is frontpage as we see this battle rage involving these children and parents , who are WONDERFUL parents in every aspect except the one involving the underage girl expected to carry on the child-production at the whim of this male dominated sect.
Pray for a good outcome. Only God-led decisions will work!

SLIPPERY-SLOPE | 7:23 a.m. May 31, 2008

==

NOT off topic,
NOT misrepresentative
NOT bashing
NOT defamatory,
NOT obscene,
NOT abusive,
NOT threatening or
NOT an invasion of privacy.

TEXAS SUPREME COURT DECISION WITH A THINLY VEILED

POLYGAMY SLIPPERY-SLOPE ARGUMENT IS A FALLACY.

SLIPPERY-SLOPE ARGUMENT: DEFINITIONS

GREATLY EXAGERATES RISKS OF EMINENT DANGER: UMBEARABLE RISK

THE DANGEROUS SLIPPERY-SLOPE ARGUMENT OF

inevitable, unintended, and unforeseen consequences, suggesting

wrongful steps in the wrong direction will result in a disastrous, outrageous

or otherwise undesirable outcome.

SLIPPERY-SLOPE ARGUMENT IS A FALLACY.

SLIPPERY-SLOPE: SERIES OF UNFORTUNATE EVENTS

SLIPPERY-SLOPE FALLACY MIXED WITH OTHER FALLACIES

* DISCLAIMER: Continuation of my literary work/efforts...fact/fiction...

quasi-fact/quasi-fiction...draft...outline...etc.

Authorship/Moral Rights: LSAT STUDENT OF FALLACIES, Debater or

FALLACY HUNTER

SIGNED: RECKIPS

==

bs | 7:29 a.m. May 31, 2008

CPS is obviously going to continue to terrorize these INNOCENT people no matter what. They had no right to even set foot in there to begin with.
This stupid judge should be disbarred

Stunned | 7:30 a.m. May 31, 2008

This Judge needs to be disbarred. She has a problem with people who are different than she is. I do not agree with the style of life of the FLDS, but to go against the order of the appeals court and the Texas Supreme court is out of line. This truly reminds me of the removal of the Native American children... because they wanted to make them the same as "we" are. I thought we learned not to do that. Obviously not.

Judge??? | 7:35 a.m. May 31, 2008

The judge's ego has been injured because it was made clear she didn't even understand the Constitution and when ego and pride are involved, things get ugly. What a sad thing to have her in Texas.

re:chuck | 7:40 a.m. May 31, 2008

You're talking some, not hundreds. Walther has no right/authority to control or punish the hundreds of children. This judge is corrupt and has placed herself above the law. The children all have mothers to go too. The law should be going after the fathers! In addtion this judge has crossed the line because she is making decisions based on their beliefs. Thats never been permissable in law, ever.

Thomas | 7:41 a.m. May 31, 2008

This judge is incompetant

Student | 7:43 a.m. May 31, 2008

I grudgingly have to admire Judge Walther for pluck in thumbing her nose at the Supreme Court. Its too bad that she's on the wrong side of the fence. Her attitude is greatly adding to the irreparable harm that the children are suffering from the CPS. She is also damaging Texas's own case against the FLDS.

I'm glad I don't live in TX | 7:43 a.m. May 31, 2008

I'm so glad that I don't live there in the lone star state. Can you imagine what all of this is going to cost? This judge is absolutely nuts!! She is really power hungry! Wants to over rule the Supreme Court and just play the Supreme Ruler on this one! This really should be done on a case by case basis. Warren Jeffs is a evil person and by right should be in jail and stay there permanently and to never have children with in his reach. But that doesn't mean the next person is the same way. The State's Supreme Court was wrong to put things back into her courtroom. I hope the people of TX vote better who they allow to stay on the bench.

This judge is out of her mind! | 7:53 a.m. May 31, 2008

From what I read here in this article this judge in her proposal wants to make the state of Texas a prison and not allow anyone to leave! Well I would be willing to say that now when these lawyers head back to the State's Supreme Court these mothers of these kids won't want any restrictions this time around, like "That judge is Crazy" said. And I agree. She blew the deal big time!

betty | 7:56 a.m. May 31, 2008

texas has a history of strong women and hooray for this judge who has just shown she is another one of them.
this flds group has shown over and over that they will lie when it suits them. strong legal order to enter the concentration camp they run will be needed to protect these children.

Wassup | 7:57 a.m. May 31, 2008

Why don't the courts in DC mandate that all the people in Washington DC get parental counseling? If 70% of children are being born out of wedlock there, talk about child abuse!

Whatever | 8:07 a.m. May 31, 2008

That would be considered running. Which is what most of these people will do. I hope something happens and the children dont go back.

Concerned | 8:11 a.m. May 31, 2008

The judge is totally correct in her decision. There is proof that these children have been abused! There needs to be tight restrictions for the benefit of each child, so that the abuse does not continue.

Anonymous | 8:18 a.m. May 31, 2008

That judge should be removed! Either we believe in the rule of law or not.

Rich | 8:19 a.m. May 31, 2008

This is such a sad case. I am LDS and I ashamed at the church not standing up and helping them. Have we forgotten that the government did to us when the church was growing. This tells us that we do not live in a free country. The individual man how is marrying the 13-16 yrs old should be arrested and be held accountable for what he has done, but don't blame the whole church.

Stop Here | 8:23 a.m. May 31, 2008

Whatever is necessary to close down the flds prison compound permanently must be done. As we sit arguing over whom and how many are underage and pregnant, essentiall rape victims, we forget that they all lived in that environment. These kids, all of them, are denied themselves and their future in this outfit, for the girls a life of servitude and reproduction awaits. For the competetive males, they get punted.
Shut 'em down.

Andrea Eaton | 8:24 a.m. May 31, 2008

This judge is on a power trip and she's going to have her way no matter who gets hurt. And Chuck, if you have proof of abuse then bring it on don't just spout off about it. These children belong with their mother's and each case should be investigated individually.

Alex | 8:28 a.m. May 31, 2008

My father used to tell me, "Pigs get fat, but hogs get slaughtered." The judge has 5 rock solid cases that can be prosecuted without jeopardizing the entire investigation. She should take them and run. If she goes for more than she can chew, she is likely to lose all of them.

What are we seeing here? | 8:30 a.m. May 31, 2008

I see Walthers abusing her position as a Judge. If they want to make a case against Warren Jeffs, I think they have it by now, however why persecute an entire group of people over his actions. I want to see specific charges and testimony against indivuals for all they say these people are doing? Donï¿½t just lump them together because they follow the same faith. Once again I donï¿½t see a Guyana nor a Waco here! But perhaps we should still call in the Feds and enforce the law and remove Walthers from the bench.

Doug | 8:33 a.m. May 31, 2008

Judge Walther is just not with it. I believe she is just trying to save face and really does not have the interest of the children in mind. She is opening up Texas for huge lawsuits. Does GESTAPO ring any bells, or SS? Get out your checkbook Texas. All cannot be guilty in the FLDS community. This broad treatment is totally out of line and unreasonable.

She is just trying to imprison them all to get at a few. They need to be investigated individually to find the guilty parties. She will end up hampering attempts to find the guilty in the long run because of her stupidity. If she wants broad treatment, go put the men in jail. They are the ones that did any actual crime, not the children.

veedub | 8:35 a.m. May 31, 2008

Why do I suspect that the judge is a Southern Baptist? The way this whole thing was handled, it's obviously more about desire to destroy a whole religion than to find who's guilty of child abuse. The ham-handed way this has taken place, and now the idiot judge's refusal to abide by the Supreme Court's ruling is going to get the guilty set free and the innocent harmed, possibly for life.

Anonymous | 8:44 a.m. May 31, 2008

This is one of the best arguments I've seen for not electing judges. Obviously, some campaign contributor has been talking to Walther to get her to break the law. If a normal citizen ignored a court order, he'd be found in contempt and be in jail in a heartbeat. But things are different in Texas. The law belongs to the guy holding the checkbook.

the Judge | 8:45 a.m. May 31, 2008

I wish the Supreme Court of Texas would simply file contempt charges against Judge Walther.

Lost Boys | 8:46 a.m. May 31, 2008

I find it particularly amusing that so many people buy into the Lost Boys. After a simple check at gosanangelo, the local Texas newspaper, I found the "boys" to be often in their 20's.

Pico | 8:48 a.m. May 31, 2008

This is going much as I thought it would, foot-dragging, sand-bagging. This judge is on a personal vendetta and and a disgrace to the position she holds. She should be removed form theese proceedings and from her position.
The Texas suprime court was pretty clear in their assessment that the proof of abuse was close to non existant and the judge had no right to remove these kids from the ranch.
Do the right thing Texas!

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