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FLDS parents could pick up children this weekend
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realitycheck | 11:19 a.m. May 30, 2008
well, hopefully two things happen...
first, they will return all the little kids right away, and hopefully the parents have been shocked enough so now they won't even consider marriages under 18 yrs old. Hell, they might even let women pick their own husband. What a concept!
second, they will keep the teenage girls and boys, thereby protecting them from further abuse and providing them an opportunity that they would never have with their parents. The opportunity to determine their own future, not the future pre-determined by their parents and their "prophet". Again, what a concept!
If so, even though everyone is saying that Texas lost this battle, I would disagree. They will have saved numerous teenagers from the no-future fate of their parents, and they will have opened the eyes of the parents so they see and understand the meaning of abuse (since I firmly believe they had no clue before.)
And if we can put away Warren Jeffs for child rape (which should be a slam-dunk given all his child brides), then there may be hope for these people yet.
I still worry about the lack of future for the little kids, but you can't save everyone.
first, they will return all the little kids right away, and hopefully the parents have been shocked enough so now they won't even consider marriages under 18 yrs old. Hell, they might even let women pick their own husband. What a concept!
second, they will keep the teenage girls and boys, thereby protecting them from further abuse and providing them an opportunity that they would never have with their parents. The opportunity to determine their own future, not the future pre-determined by their parents and their "prophet". Again, what a concept!
If so, even though everyone is saying that Texas lost this battle, I would disagree. They will have saved numerous teenagers from the no-future fate of their parents, and they will have opened the eyes of the parents so they see and understand the meaning of abuse (since I firmly believe they had no clue before.)
And if we can put away Warren Jeffs for child rape (which should be a slam-dunk given all his child brides), then there may be hope for these people yet.
I still worry about the lack of future for the little kids, but you can't save everyone.
G | 11:20 a.m. May 30, 2008
Enjoy that crow.
Comments continue below
re - Bruce | 11:33 a.m. May 30, 2008
Better hope there is no "Sherrif Willie" since he's about as
psyco as they come....
American | 11:47 a.m. May 30, 2008
Walther and many others should be tried for genocide!
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or "religious group", as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and]
"forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or "religious group", as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and]
"forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
American | 11:57 a.m. May 30, 2008
Read the definition of genocide ... and decide if and to whom it applies AND who
should be tried FIRST.
Hint:
The legal definition inludes"
" imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Hint:
The legal definition inludes"
" imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Foulbystate | 11:58 a.m. May 30, 2008
OK, state can hold adults hostage by just saying they are under 18. State can
say wedding of 17 year old girl and 20 year old boy is not official due to it
being done in the church. BUT, a guy married to two woman by the church is
wrong? I see no difference between this and a married man or woman having
someone on the side. TX is way out of bounds on this one, and owes this group
billions. Start with $100,000,000 for each child, then followup with
$100,000,000 times the difference of actual age minus eighteen for each adult
held against their will.
Concerned Dad | 12:03 p.m. May 30, 2008
realitycheck said:
>second, they will keep the teenage girls and boys,
I think you are misinformed. The higher courts said to return ALL of the children to the parents.
I do agree with this:
>shocked enough so now they won't even consider marriages under 18 yrs old.
I am hopeful that YFZ Ranch and FLDS in general will toe the line on state law. That means 16 or older with parental consent for legal marriages and 17 or older for 'spiritual' marriages.
>second, they will keep the teenage girls and boys,
I think you are misinformed. The higher courts said to return ALL of the children to the parents.
I do agree with this:
>shocked enough so now they won't even consider marriages under 18 yrs old.
I am hopeful that YFZ Ranch and FLDS in general will toe the line on state law. That means 16 or older with parental consent for legal marriages and 17 or older for 'spiritual' marriages.
Re American | 12:06 p.m. May 30, 2008
I can understand how some may think it is Genocide but according to your own
stated definition it is not because the were not transfered to another group. If
they ALL had been transfered to a Catholic school for "reprogramming"
or to a Baptist boarding school etc. then you might be accurate.
They may have gone about it the wrong way but many of the FLDS children are at risk for sexual and other abuse/neglect. The continued investigation will show that the "leaders" of the FLDS are promoting child brides and abandoning boys on the side of the road for "dropping the F bomb".
They may have gone about it the wrong way but many of the FLDS children are at risk for sexual and other abuse/neglect. The continued investigation will show that the "leaders" of the FLDS are promoting child brides and abandoning boys on the side of the road for "dropping the F bomb".
@Foulbystate | 12:11 p.m. May 30, 2008
are you for real? I don't disagree that texas was out of line taking all
those kids, but 100 million per kid? thats extremly excessive and also
unrealistic, they don't even give prisioners that were inoccent that kind
of money for being locked up for 20 years.
realitycheck | 12:25 p.m. May 30, 2008
re - Concerned Dad
I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the order only applies to children that are not at current risk. I think even the appeals court ruled that adolecents(sp?) were in immediate danger, so they would be exempt from these rulings......
I may be wrong, but that's my understanding. And my hope...
And to American - you still don't get it. CPS didn't do what they did to cause harm. They may think too much of themselves, but I don't believe they did what they did with malice. And to get money (or anything else) from the state, it must be proven that the actions were done with malice . I don't think that's gonna happen.
I may be wrong, but my understanding is that the order only applies to children that are not at current risk. I think even the appeals court ruled that adolecents(sp?) were in immediate danger, so they would be exempt from these rulings......
I may be wrong, but that's my understanding. And my hope...
And to American - you still don't get it. CPS didn't do what they did to cause harm. They may think too much of themselves, but I don't believe they did what they did with malice. And to get money (or anything else) from the state, it must be proven that the actions were done with malice . I don't think that's gonna happen.
re Re American | 12:29 p.m. May 30, 2008
If CPS can call the whole ranch one household, then a genocide prosecutor should
be able to say that all of CPS is one group. Taking children from one group to
give to another group, is genocide. See?
Who is the local U.S. Attorney? How about a special procecutor?
Judges are 100% immune from civil liability for their rulings even if done in bad faith, but there is utterly no judicial immunity for criminal liability, and the Federal criminal code calls genocide a crime - punishable by up to 20 years in Federal prison!
Take THAT Judge Walther!
Who is the local U.S. Attorney? How about a special procecutor?
Judges are 100% immune from civil liability for their rulings even if done in bad faith, but there is utterly no judicial immunity for criminal liability, and the Federal criminal code calls genocide a crime - punishable by up to 20 years in Federal prison!
Take THAT Judge Walther!
Larissa | 12:34 p.m. May 30, 2008
I am so happy for the FLDS by the ruling of the Supreme Court. I cannot believe
the disaster that has been created by CPS, State Officials, and the Lower Court
who clearly violated our constitution. Adults who had committed no crimes were
held against their will. The sexual abuse of what turned out to be five girls
gave CPS the right to take over 400 children in this community, and hold them
hostage. Of course, the person, persons who commited these acts against these
five children should be held accountable. But, to uproot the whole community? To
force adult women to give birth while CPS watched over like hawks is horrible
for the two women who suffered through this. Many of these people are probably
going to need mental health help to recover from what has happened.Is the State
willing to help them with that. I am completely appalled at this situation of
true child abuse by CPS. These children have suffered so much. Constitutional
rights have been violated. I heard that many of the children are overjoyed at
the prospect of returning home. I hope these children will be returned as soon
as possible.
hmmmmm | 12:42 p.m. May 30, 2008
one thing you must realise if FDLS sue the state
in a civil lidigation they totally open themselves
to being questioned under oath and they can not take the 5th in a civil lidigation
they will all be questioned
in a civil lidigation they totally open themselves
to being questioned under oath and they can not take the 5th in a civil lidigation
they will all be questioned
Disgusted | 12:45 p.m. May 30, 2008
Genocide? Really, all of you using this term to describe the removal of the
children from a harmful living situation ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
This is not Nazi Germany of Darfur. You lose total credibility when you resort
to such extreme language. Do not insult the victims of true genocidal actions.
Sokol | 12:47 p.m. May 30, 2008
Hopefully this arrogant, provincial legal dictator
will abide by the higher courts mandate. In New Mexico, the lower courts seldom even follow the ruling of higher courts. These people act like
we are subservient to them. These judges own us.
Most of the time their power has skewed their sense
of reasoning and insight. We need to have criminal
charges levied and enforced against CPS, the woman
who made the false allegation, and this judge.
Let them not hide under the hideous cloak of immunity.
will abide by the higher courts mandate. In New Mexico, the lower courts seldom even follow the ruling of higher courts. These people act like
we are subservient to them. These judges own us.
Most of the time their power has skewed their sense
of reasoning and insight. We need to have criminal
charges levied and enforced against CPS, the woman
who made the false allegation, and this judge.
Let them not hide under the hideous cloak of immunity.
Doubt the FLDS will sue | 1:08 p.m. May 30, 2008
I doubt the FLDS will sue the state.
1. They don't trust the courts.
2. They don't trust the state.
3. They don't want publicity.
4. They just don't work that way. They're still old-school. If they have a bone to pick with you they do it personally. They don't run to court and sue you. But maybe their learning to be more like us.
1. They don't trust the courts.
2. They don't trust the state.
3. They don't want publicity.
4. They just don't work that way. They're still old-school. If they have a bone to pick with you they do it personally. They don't run to court and sue you. But maybe their learning to be more like us.
To Disgusted | 1:08 p.m. May 30, 2008
The U.N. definition of genocide, read D and E:
...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
� Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2
...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
� Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2
Jim in Reno | 1:17 p.m. May 30, 2008
What about: Illegal search of person to obtain DNA?
Do we want any state to come into our:
exclusive "Gated Community" and, force us to give DNA because a neighbor may or, may not, have; in their role of "Grandpa and/or Grandma" possibly; caused/saw/et.al. "Abuse?"
I personally would like to see a return or, destruction of all DNA "Evidence" and, the Court "make whole" this Group. Also; the "Jessop Girls" should be sued for libel as the C.P.S found no proof of their Allegations. (Please read Nancy Grace's Bio and, almost disbarment)
"Judge" Walters should be removed as should the C.P.S's top officers. It goes without saying that the Texas Ranger Comander should be reassignsd and, if it is true that; Swinton made hoax calls she should be prosecuted; the Sheriff should also be removed. Then; the Governor should suffer the same fate. I hope that all have learned not to jump to conclusions and, trust the Law to investigate not,act: assume that a crime was committed. ( I've heard so many times that "there was/is irrefutable proof of abuse..."
But, that would only happen in a perfect world wouldn't it?
Do we want any state to come into our:
exclusive "Gated Community" and, force us to give DNA because a neighbor may or, may not, have; in their role of "Grandpa and/or Grandma" possibly; caused/saw/et.al. "Abuse?"
I personally would like to see a return or, destruction of all DNA "Evidence" and, the Court "make whole" this Group. Also; the "Jessop Girls" should be sued for libel as the C.P.S found no proof of their Allegations. (Please read Nancy Grace's Bio and, almost disbarment)
"Judge" Walters should be removed as should the C.P.S's top officers. It goes without saying that the Texas Ranger Comander should be reassignsd and, if it is true that; Swinton made hoax calls she should be prosecuted; the Sheriff should also be removed. Then; the Governor should suffer the same fate. I hope that all have learned not to jump to conclusions and, trust the Law to investigate not,act: assume that a crime was committed. ( I've heard so many times that "there was/is irrefutable proof of abuse..."
But, that would only happen in a perfect world wouldn't it?
Teacher and Dad | 1:17 p.m. May 30, 2008
I didn't think so at first, but now I believe that much of the actions of
the CPS were founded upon malice towards the residents of the ranch. If you
research local newspaper articles from the ranch area of Texas, you can find
anti-FLDS articles going back to 2004. There is already much talk in Texas of
confiscating the ranch itself to pay for CPS costs in the raid. There have been
complaints in the Texas government that the raid utilized Baptist busses at a
cost far higher than obtaining busses from other sources. The head of the CPS is
Baptist by coincidence.
The CPS supposedly had an informant at the ranch who didn't have the slightest idea how many children were actually living there. CPS was warned before the raid that they might encounter armed resistance. So who hated the FLDS enough to prompt a heavily armed excursion to kidnap innocent children in an obvious effort to destroy the community? This situation obviously goes far beyond the surface issue of child abuse. It involves money, religion, envy, and fear of a group of people who appear to be very different than average americans. "Child abuse" was the rallying cry.
The CPS supposedly had an informant at the ranch who didn't have the slightest idea how many children were actually living there. CPS was warned before the raid that they might encounter armed resistance. So who hated the FLDS enough to prompt a heavily armed excursion to kidnap innocent children in an obvious effort to destroy the community? This situation obviously goes far beyond the surface issue of child abuse. It involves money, religion, envy, and fear of a group of people who appear to be very different than average americans. "Child abuse" was the rallying cry.
Jim in Reno | 1:25 p.m. May 30, 2008
Editor: Please explain why my comments are being refused.
Thank You;
JG
Thank You;
JG
yes, Disgusted! | 1:26 p.m. May 30, 2008
Yes, the CPS really did pull out the Nazi tactics, could not have said it better
myself! Sieg Heil Judge Walther!
Let's see how many kids get to go home in an hour, eh? My bet is nobody comes home this weekend, anyway. Judge Walther is out of control, the appeals court will have to take charge.
Let's see how many kids get to go home in an hour, eh? My bet is nobody comes home this weekend, anyway. Judge Walther is out of control, the appeals court will have to take charge.
Thomas | 1:35 p.m. May 30, 2008
Maybe this dictator will have a heart and let the children go home.
COSMO | 1:37 p.m. May 30, 2008
Get ready, if Judge Walther does not free and return
these children now,then she and the Texas CPS, are up to some kind of legal scam. These power freaks do
not want to give this up. I smell a big fat Texas sized Rat, coming! Always remember to follow the money.
these children now,then she and the Texas CPS, are up to some kind of legal scam. These power freaks do
not want to give this up. I smell a big fat Texas sized Rat, coming! Always remember to follow the money.
phil | 1:39 p.m. May 30, 2008
I don't think the FLDS are afraid of the Bill of Rights. My biggest
complaint is all the AP articles saying that the third district appeals only
said the CPS proved that five were abused. That is completely a LIE, the
appeals said that the CPS proved nothing with respect to the five older girls.
for real | 1:39 p.m. May 30, 2008
For Real this was an intended Genocide and should be punished. The CPS even
threatened some of the young "mothers to be" with forced abortions if
they wouldn't answer their questions. Some of these mothers were adults.
I talked to a mother named Marie about this, and this may be brought up in a
future civil lawsuit.
For CPS to even give up one child put a hole in their hull.
For CPS to even give up one child put a hole in their hull.
r: reality check | 1:44 p.m. May 30, 2008
Yes you are wrong. Read the ruling it is very clear, no proof of anything was
presented by the CPS. All children must be returned, and hopefully the adults
falsely view as children also.
Not Baptist, Just Texan | 1:51 p.m. May 30, 2008
Just for the knowledge of those who don't live in Texas...The
ranches/shelters that these children were wisked away to were generally
faith-based organizations that believe FLDS to be cultists. We even here had the
Baptist Emergency Response Teams activated for this little endeavor...Does
anyone think that there was NO distrust or dislike for the FLDS involved? Hmmmm.
I don't think so. Emotions are running high on this issue and it appears to
be based on hearsay or false information being circulated.
Jen Shostak | 2:04 p.m. May 30, 2008
Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. So we've got Judge Walther, Marlie
Meisner and the woman Assistant DA who are REALLY ANGRY about what has occurred.
They will be looking for revenge.
However, I think Texas CPS coming in with conditions for release of the children consistent with the Texas Family Code, allowing Judge Walther to merely acquiesce in them, shows that Walther is going to wait to take hers.
Reading the conditions for return of the kids, I have a sense that "a new team" is running the show, and they are going to play the prosecution game smarter and more selectively. It is absolutely not a coincidence that Warren Jeffs DNA is being taken. I think Arizona is going to agree that Texas can go "next" in their prosecution of him. Conviction of Warren Jeffs of sex with underage girls in Texas will pretty well guarantee that Texas law enforcement can prosecute any adult who "lived under the same roof" with the 4 teen age Jeffs wives.
This prosecution is going to be played out slowly and carefully by people who have their brains engaged and their egos in check.
However, I think Texas CPS coming in with conditions for release of the children consistent with the Texas Family Code, allowing Judge Walther to merely acquiesce in them, shows that Walther is going to wait to take hers.
Reading the conditions for return of the kids, I have a sense that "a new team" is running the show, and they are going to play the prosecution game smarter and more selectively. It is absolutely not a coincidence that Warren Jeffs DNA is being taken. I think Arizona is going to agree that Texas can go "next" in their prosecution of him. Conviction of Warren Jeffs of sex with underage girls in Texas will pretty well guarantee that Texas law enforcement can prosecute any adult who "lived under the same roof" with the 4 teen age Jeffs wives.
This prosecution is going to be played out slowly and carefully by people who have their brains engaged and their egos in check.
Anon E Mouse | 2:16 p.m. May 30, 2008
I seriously doubt the FLDS will go along with whatever plan the court orders.
Especially the staying in Texas part. I bet they will head into hiding or into
Canada.
Steve - Great news! | 2:19 p.m. May 30, 2008
This is great news, seriously. I'm glad all courts agreed that the wrong
thing was done and that the families are going to be reunited as they should be.
Unless they knew for a fact that a child was being forced to do things they didn't want to then they shouldn't have removed them from their home (or at least had stronger evidence of it to support the suspicions). You don't just rip every child in an entire town out of their homes because a few in the same church were being abused... just because they may or may not have been being abused doesn't mean everyone else in their church were too.
As far as the polygamy issue in general, what harm is being done if its what all involved really want to do (meaning nobody is being forced)?
Unless they knew for a fact that a child was being forced to do things they didn't want to then they shouldn't have removed them from their home (or at least had stronger evidence of it to support the suspicions). You don't just rip every child in an entire town out of their homes because a few in the same church were being abused... just because they may or may not have been being abused doesn't mean everyone else in their church were too.
As far as the polygamy issue in general, what harm is being done if its what all involved really want to do (meaning nobody is being forced)?
Heidi in Montana | 2:23 p.m. May 30, 2008
These children should be returned as soon as can be! There is no reason to
hold them. CPS went way too far on this one. Removal of so many children, even
nursing babies, right out of their mother's arms, holding adults, known to
be adults, just to get their little babies. Flashlights shoved in sleeping
women's faces at night in the Colosium, causing them and their children to
get no sleep. Pulling out specific women who were of age, and saying, " You
need to come with us, because you lied about your age", in the middle of
the night. Acually ripping innocent women and children apart, causing stress for
both parents and children. It sounds like CPS had NO compassion for these
people. I would think that someone in that line of work should at least be able
to show an ounce of compassion.It does sound like these people have been
targeted. The cases of child abuse should have been investigated individually. I
am amazed at how barbaric this whole ordeal was. Someone should be held
accountable for these people's anguish.
Ray | 2:24 p.m. May 30, 2008
"The court thinks this ruling would be the same for each and every
child"
AAAARGH! CPS just won't give up will they? These are not mindless cattle we're dealing with, each child is a unique and precious individual person!
How can CPS to this moment keep refusing to treat them like INDIVIDUALS!!!
AAAARGH! CPS just won't give up will they? These are not mindless cattle we're dealing with, each child is a unique and precious individual person!
How can CPS to this moment keep refusing to treat them like INDIVIDUALS!!!
Think!!!!! | 2:26 p.m. May 30, 2008
HOW WONDERFUL THAT THE CHILDREN GET TO BE WITH THEIR PARENTS. THOSE PARENTS
DON'T EVEN CARE WERE THE STATE MAKES THEM LIVE, THEY ARE JUST HAPPY THEY
ARE GOING TO HAVE THEIR CHILDREN. BUT IS THIS AMERICA IF THEY CAN HAVE THEIR
CHILDREN "IF" THEY DON'T GO BACK TO THE RANCH? NOTHING WAS PROVED
AND THEY SHOULD GET A RED CARPET LAID OUT ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE RANCH. THAT
IS HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT.
Bruce | 2:42 p.m. May 30, 2008
Well, the kids start returning home Monday.
I hope this is a wakeup call to the nation regarding child "protection" services nationwide. They really need to be restructured. We need child protection but we can't have gestapo.
I hope also that this is a wakeup call to the FLDS. You have to be more responsible regarding marriage age. (I think they will)
I hope this is a wakeup call to the nation regarding child "protection" services nationwide. They really need to be restructured. We need child protection but we can't have gestapo.
I hope also that this is a wakeup call to the FLDS. You have to be more responsible regarding marriage age. (I think they will)
Cal | 2:44 p.m. May 30, 2008
Wow women fought for freedom and the FLDS men took that right from them. The
FLDS prison is a pedophiles dream come true, all the kids you want as long as
you are an elder. The FLDS members let their little girls get raped all on the
word of god or should we say Jeffs. The outstanding Parents turn their boys out
on the road if to many boys are at the prison. Lord forbid if the Old men have
to compete for a little girl. They turn the boys out on the road baring them
from the only home they know, to walk to someplace for help in Nevada. The kids
are not taught to have their own voice, they are taught to submit since they
were babies.
Anonymous | 3:00 p.m. May 30, 2008
I say NO WAY!
I hope the attorneys deny this 'agreement.'
What grounds does Walthers/CPS have to do ANY OF THIS...OH...Salt Lake Tribune reports that state says FLDS must have photos taken---too!!!!
What...MUG SHOTS!!!!
I hope the attorneys deny this 'agreement.'
What grounds does Walthers/CPS have to do ANY OF THIS...OH...Salt Lake Tribune reports that state says FLDS must have photos taken---too!!!!
What...MUG SHOTS!!!!
Sokol | 3:05 p.m. May 30, 2008
Set the children free...Another aspect of this...just
suppose there was evidence of sexual abuse by males.
Why then did the mothers and children have their relationship obliterated by CPS? I am no genious,
but even their so called intervention for the safety
of the children makes no sense. They were in essence
punished. I think the FLDS ought to bankrupt Texas for their crimes against humanity.
suppose there was evidence of sexual abuse by males.
Why then did the mothers and children have their relationship obliterated by CPS? I am no genious,
but even their so called intervention for the safety
of the children makes no sense. They were in essence
punished. I think the FLDS ought to bankrupt Texas for their crimes against humanity.
well!!!!!!! | 3:18 p.m. May 30, 2008
they will have a hard time running to canada without a passport and or a
original birth certifcate I am quite sure authories at border will be all over
that
realitycheck | 3:33 p.m. May 30, 2008
Listen - we all know that there was abuse going on in FLDS. Way too many people
have come forward with the exact same complaints about them. They didn't
all make them up, and if you think they did, then you are in denial.
If nothing else, this should have shaken the upper mgmt of FLDS enough that they stop abusing children - stop underage "marriages" and kicking out teenage boys.
And if Texas can prosecute/imprison a number of the leaders and mothers for the crimes committed against their children, then Texas will have done as much as they can to modify the cult's behavior towards a more moral and ethical avenue.
was it worth it? time will tell, and we may never know. But if just one little 13 yr old girl is saved from marrying her uncle, then yes - I believe it was well worth it.
If nothing else, this should have shaken the upper mgmt of FLDS enough that they stop abusing children - stop underage "marriages" and kicking out teenage boys.
And if Texas can prosecute/imprison a number of the leaders and mothers for the crimes committed against their children, then Texas will have done as much as they can to modify the cult's behavior towards a more moral and ethical avenue.
was it worth it? time will tell, and we may never know. But if just one little 13 yr old girl is saved from marrying her uncle, then yes - I believe it was well worth it.
Steve | 3:43 p.m. May 30, 2008
People are way overplaying this decision.
The Texas Supreme Court decided that the remedy applied by CPS (removal of the children) wasn't justified. They didn't say that oversight by CPS was unjustified.
This was not a constitutional issue. It was one of whether the Texas CPS statute was being met.
The upcoming issues are critical:
* The DNA tests. Who fathered whom? This will likely establish all kinds of interesting facts like how widespread the underage marriages are, incest, and how widely Mr. Jeffs and his compatriots have spread their seed. Be prepared for more "Ewwwwwhhh" moments.
* Criminal charges. It is fair to assume that some of the FLDS patriarchs will be charged. How many? There is a fair probability that much of the leadership will be serving time.
People have focused on the removal of the kids. But, this one is still in the early acts of what will be a long, involved play.
The Texas Supreme Court decided that the remedy applied by CPS (removal of the children) wasn't justified. They didn't say that oversight by CPS was unjustified.
This was not a constitutional issue. It was one of whether the Texas CPS statute was being met.
The upcoming issues are critical:
* The DNA tests. Who fathered whom? This will likely establish all kinds of interesting facts like how widespread the underage marriages are, incest, and how widely Mr. Jeffs and his compatriots have spread their seed. Be prepared for more "Ewwwwwhhh" moments.
* Criminal charges. It is fair to assume that some of the FLDS patriarchs will be charged. How many? There is a fair probability that much of the leadership will be serving time.
People have focused on the removal of the kids. But, this one is still in the early acts of what will be a long, involved play.
Veronica | 3:47 p.m. May 30, 2008
Do the right thing, and send those suffering children home. It's so sad
what they have been put through. No one has even been charged with anything. CPS
is trying to keep those children anyway they can. They know the children are
unhappy now. Any cases of abuse should be, or should have been investigated from
their home, without tearing the place apart to get anything they want. It is not
child abuse for them to live on the ranch. What about every American city
throughout the nation, every ghetto? Those children are at risk of anything!
Mabey CPS would like to go and round those children up too? No, this was an easy
one for them, get 400 with one BIG sweep. Probably a lot of healthy infants
ready for adoption, oh, CPS would have loved that. This is one of the cruelest
things I have EVER seen happen.
Anonymous | 3:54 p.m. May 30, 2008
Okay, CPS screwed up big time but they are still using their children as a
"dangling carrot" to sign papers to go to classes and have
restrictions outside of investigative reasons. More reasons to collect money off
of this. They are still being brush stroked with these conditions and CPS will
use any signed paper to label them "designated perpetrator"... They
are still being punished for CPS's actions...sick.. The calls and petitions
for CPS to get their hands off the cases without actual and real evidence needs
to ensue. They are still being punished for Texas's Unconsitutional Raid.
It will take a long time for the guns and flashlights and sights of their
weeping mothers being held at gun point to go away.
Re: Realitycheck | 3:55 p.m. May 30, 2008
IT was most certainly not worth breaking the consitution and tramatizing another
450 children for life. That 13 year old you claim we saved could have been saved
using consitutional methods. You have a communistic mentality and that is why we
have the Consitution. That is Gestopo methods you mention.
GRANDMA | 3:56 p.m. May 30, 2008
FOLKS, ITS TIME TO SEND THOSE KIDS BACK HOME. THE LITTLE ONES SHOULD NEVER HAVE
HAD TO LEAVE THERE MOMMAS LIKE THAT. I AGREE THE PICTURES OF THE SO CALLED
PROHET WERE BAD. BUT HE IS IN JAIL NOW. MAKE SURE OF NO CHILD ABUSE BUT DONT
TAKE THE KIDS. THATS WHAT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE.WHAT HAS THIS WORLD CAME TO?
MAKES ME WORRY ABOUT MY TWO PRECIOUS GRANDSONS.THE GOVERMENT SHOULNT BE ABLE TO
GET AWAY WITH THIS.THE FLDS OUTTA HIT THEM WITH A BIG LAWSUIT.
Jeff D | 4:04 p.m. May 30, 2008
Veronica,
Did your husband ask you to draft that message --- or was it one of your sister wives??
Did your husband ask you to draft that message --- or was it one of your sister wives??
BeeCareful | 4:10 p.m. May 30, 2008
The court decided to follow the law. How could the attorneys at the CPS have
thought it would turn out differently? They must have been asleep in their
constitutional law classes.
One can only hope that an equitable agreement can be arranged to allow reunification that will protect the minor girls from sexual predation without trampling all over their constitutional and religious rights. When the girls are adults, they should be allowed to live however they wish as long as they are not violating the law.
Bigamy should remain against the law. It is fraud.
Sexual abuse of minor girls should likewise be against the law. It is despicable and indefensible.
Polygamy among consenting adults, which is nothing more than cohabitation (and is practiced commonly all over this nation) should not be illegal as long as no 2nd civil marriage is contracted. It may not be the behavior choice most of us would make, but among consenting adults, there really is no way to prevent it, and there hasn't been in all of recorded human history.
One can only hope that an equitable agreement can be arranged to allow reunification that will protect the minor girls from sexual predation without trampling all over their constitutional and religious rights. When the girls are adults, they should be allowed to live however they wish as long as they are not violating the law.
Bigamy should remain against the law. It is fraud.
Sexual abuse of minor girls should likewise be against the law. It is despicable and indefensible.
Polygamy among consenting adults, which is nothing more than cohabitation (and is practiced commonly all over this nation) should not be illegal as long as no 2nd civil marriage is contracted. It may not be the behavior choice most of us would make, but among consenting adults, there really is no way to prevent it, and there hasn't been in all of recorded human history.
realitycheck | 4:22 p.m. May 30, 2008
re - re:realitycheck 3:55pm
I wholeheartedly disagree. You want to wait until it happens. Sorry - it's too late by then.
If it was your 13 yr old daughter, I think you would agree with me. Matter of fact, if it was your daughter, I am fairly certain you wouldn't care about civil rights or the constitution, and people would probably end up bleeding. (They would if it was my daughter, too - so don't feel bad.)
If you don't feel that way, then you are either not a parent, or you are Willie Jessop. So which is it?
I wholeheartedly disagree. You want to wait until it happens. Sorry - it's too late by then.
If it was your 13 yr old daughter, I think you would agree with me. Matter of fact, if it was your daughter, I am fairly certain you wouldn't care about civil rights or the constitution, and people would probably end up bleeding. (They would if it was my daughter, too - so don't feel bad.)
If you don't feel that way, then you are either not a parent, or you are Willie Jessop. So which is it?
The Bigger Problem | 4:31 p.m. May 30, 2008
Two high court rulings against CPS suggest an abusive problem with this agency.
What prevents someone from kidnapping when they only have to return the child if
found guilty? What prevents future abuse if no punishment is affixed? Guilty
actions by individuals are criminal but guilty actions by CPS are only
considered unjustified. Why? Is CPS offered this protection under the pretense
that it can�t do its job if there is fear of retribution?
No wonder CPS has a vivid imagination that over generalizes, sensationalizes,
fabricates, and distorts facts.
Mix in �no accountability� with blinder wearing CPS investigators who ignore certain facts; over-loaded case workers too busy to care or young case workers that have a degree, a job, but no real life experience; a judge �wannabe� guardian ad litem engaging in a high profile case; a psycho-babbling mumbo-jumbo therapist whose living depends on CPS cases; a familiar judge; and you have a recipe for child confiscations and adults accused of trumped up charges in a juvenile court system.
Alleged criminals need to be prosecuted on evidence of facts in a fair legal system; not by over-zealots who act illegally. How unprofessional. How pathetic. Heaven help us.
Mix in �no accountability� with blinder wearing CPS investigators who ignore certain facts; over-loaded case workers too busy to care or young case workers that have a degree, a job, but no real life experience; a judge �wannabe� guardian ad litem engaging in a high profile case; a psycho-babbling mumbo-jumbo therapist whose living depends on CPS cases; a familiar judge; and you have a recipe for child confiscations and adults accused of trumped up charges in a juvenile court system.
Alleged criminals need to be prosecuted on evidence of facts in a fair legal system; not by over-zealots who act illegally. How unprofessional. How pathetic. Heaven help us.
desnews yes man | 4:34 p.m. May 30, 2008
realitycheck sure knows a lot, not. Yea, we all know, when you hear 'here
say' a thousands times, it still does not make it true. Like the 13 and 14
year olds who were found pregnant. Turned out to be one 16 year old and four 17
year olds.
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And where is CPS going to get the money that was going to come from adopting out all those young children?