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Texas can't hold 'em: Supreme court says state erred in taking children
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Rednael | 9:07 a.m. May 30, 2008
Good! The constitution is still supreme, even in Texas. Return the kids to their
mothers.
Now it's time to go after the actual child rapists in the FLDS group.
Now it's time to go after the actual child rapists in the FLDS group.
Brakes My Heart | 9:09 a.m. May 30, 2008
Southern Utah Resident...many people who REALLY care about these little ones,
are asking the same thing. Reading the posts of the people that are jumping for
joy, some of these children well be returned to this cult, makes me
wonder...WHY..., are they that cold hearted towards the safety of these little
children.I'm sure many of the authors of the posts are FLDS men...so thats
not hard to figure out why they want the little girls back, but those who are
not FLDS...I cant understand. Merrill Jessop and the other men who went into
hiding, can crawl out from under their rock now. Warren Jeffs needs to be put
out in the prison yard with the prisoners who dont look kindly on child
molesters.
Comments continue below
AMICRAZY | 9:10 a.m. May 30, 2008
I agree that all the children should not have been taken out of their
homes-however, this aritcle notes that evidence shows only 5 girls in custody
have been abused!! These girls should be protected. And we have others who have
testified that they were not given a choice in marriage at a very young age.
This is against any Christian religion. Marriage is fundemental in an
individuals salvation and therefore should be entered into with choice and love
and acceptance on both parties. And abuse of young children should be taken very
seriously.
COSMO | 9:14 a.m. May 30, 2008
I am concerned, that Texas CPS will intentionally drag out the process of
returning the children out of, revenge, and in the hopes of holding some of them
to be used as legal bargaining chips. All that potential adoption money is hard
to give up on.
On another note,the FLDS would be wise to make some
changes, such as marrying at the minimum age of 21.
Scrap the "Little House on the Prairie" look, and
ensure a proper education for all!
The ladies do not have to dress "Sex in the City",
but as it is now, you are drawing way too much unneeded attention to yourselves. May God heal you and your little ones. :-)
On another note,the FLDS would be wise to make some
changes, such as marrying at the minimum age of 21.
Scrap the "Little House on the Prairie" look, and
ensure a proper education for all!
The ladies do not have to dress "Sex in the City",
but as it is now, you are drawing way too much unneeded attention to yourselves. May God heal you and your little ones. :-)
FLDS Practices | 9:14 a.m. May 30, 2008
The constitution does not protect underage marriages to teenagers.
Texas went about it the wrong way, but their instincts to do something about the child rape, abuse and control IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
That big Texas pride got in the way - Texas CPS should have consulted Utah and Arizona AGs and other law enforcement.
The Courts have NOT endorsed the FLDS lifestyle or marriage practices.
Texas went about it the wrong way, but their instincts to do something about the child rape, abuse and control IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO.
That big Texas pride got in the way - Texas CPS should have consulted Utah and Arizona AGs and other law enforcement.
The Courts have NOT endorsed the FLDS lifestyle or marriage practices.
Billion | 9:14 a.m. May 30, 2008
For the Billionth time, there was NO welfare fraud in TEXAS according to TX
authorities. It is functioning on rumor over fact that made this debacle in the
first place.
AZBorderDude | 9:16 a.m. May 30, 2008
The FLDS brought much of this on. In alleged abuse cases, Texas can't
selectively remove any child until they know who can't be removed. To do
this they must ID the parents. The mothers and kids refused to give any
information about parentage. Faced with over 400 potential victims they had to
get it into a controlled environment. A major factor in the decision to remove
was FLDS moving children around to thwart the search.
Texas was unable to find the victim, which destroyed the case. But the removal was in good faith under the inital circumstances. Once parentage is determined most will be returned.
Before blaming Texas too much remember bigamy is illegal as is polygamy. So Federal and State laws were violated by FLDS. And, the claimed cooperation was not there.
The 1953 Arizona fiasco was about polygamy; this is about child abuse/rape. Big differences. CPS just hadn't enough time to get it together. I think the magnitude of the event was more than they expected.
The true victims are the children and the way they are treated physically and emotionally. Pray they will be blessed to find truth and happiness.
Texas was unable to find the victim, which destroyed the case. But the removal was in good faith under the inital circumstances. Once parentage is determined most will be returned.
Before blaming Texas too much remember bigamy is illegal as is polygamy. So Federal and State laws were violated by FLDS. And, the claimed cooperation was not there.
The 1953 Arizona fiasco was about polygamy; this is about child abuse/rape. Big differences. CPS just hadn't enough time to get it together. I think the magnitude of the event was more than they expected.
The true victims are the children and the way they are treated physically and emotionally. Pray they will be blessed to find truth and happiness.
ugh | 9:32 a.m. May 30, 2008
The parents did not uniformly refuse to give information, which they were not
legally required to give. Many gave BOTH drivers licenses and birth
certificates and still labeled minor.
While bigamy is illegal, these people were spiritually married and not legally married, so your point is moot.
This was not about child abuse and rape since most children were not victim. Heck, they actually had fewer cases of underage pregnancy than most inner cities and even 'burbs. Why are these girls protected while inner city girls are not?
What surprises me most is the universal lack of knowledge regarding law. If one dares write anything regarding abiding by law, one is immediately termed "FLDS." It wouldn't matter what religious group this was, they are still afforded equal protection under the law, even if you don't like them.
While bigamy is illegal, these people were spiritually married and not legally married, so your point is moot.
This was not about child abuse and rape since most children were not victim. Heck, they actually had fewer cases of underage pregnancy than most inner cities and even 'burbs. Why are these girls protected while inner city girls are not?
What surprises me most is the universal lack of knowledge regarding law. If one dares write anything regarding abiding by law, one is immediately termed "FLDS." It wouldn't matter what religious group this was, they are still afforded equal protection under the law, even if you don't like them.
re: AZBorderDude | 9:45 a.m. May 30, 2008
There is no bigamy here. Texas doesn't acknowledge spiritual marriages.
At the most they can charge folks for adultry, but then they'd have to
prosecute a significant portion of the Texas population to insure they
weren't singling out a select group (which of course they were). Texas
didn't go into the Ranch because of Polygmy, they went and removed the
children for child abuse under false and fabricated prentenses. Are you having
trouble following this story?
Scared | 9:49 a.m. May 30, 2008
I know that this group is a little extreme, but it goes to show what the
government can do to us if they hold a prejudice. Everyone run for your lives.
J-man | 9:50 a.m. May 30, 2008
1. When will Merril Jessop come out of hiding?
2. Can Willie Jessop ever give a straight answer?
2. Can Willie Jessop ever give a straight answer?
Listen to Your Lawyer | 9:54 a.m. May 30, 2008
In a radio interview shortly after the Texas CPS took the children, Mark
Shurtleff stated that he had spoken to the Texas Attorney General. According to
Mr. Shurtleff, the Texas AG's office was not consulted or involved in the
decision to enter the YFZ Compound and take the children.
Here is at least one moral from this story: Listen to your lawyers. They are there for a reason. This whole fiasco may have been handled differently, and possibly better, if the Texas CPS had consulted with their legal experts.
Here is at least one moral from this story: Listen to your lawyers. They are there for a reason. This whole fiasco may have been handled differently, and possibly better, if the Texas CPS had consulted with their legal experts.
thanks AZBorder &GrampPhill | 9:57 a.m. May 30, 2008
Thanks for your comments. I guess people have their own ideas and keep bringing
up false claims from CPS without any proof. The children were kidnapped without
a lick of proof. I am glad they get to go home now, although I am sure Judge
Walthers is going to make it very difficult for them to actually sleep in their
own beds again any time soon.
confused | 10:00 a.m. May 30, 2008
I don't understand how certain agencies can use up all their energy on a
GROUP of children, the majority of which seem to be clean, well fed, loved, and
wanted, when there are at least that many children in any given school district
that are neglected, ignored, and poorly cared for. You can't just round up
a group of people and brand them all with a big X and say they are bad. Every
child should have been evaluated on an individual basis. Otherwise, what is to
stop those agencies from coming in with busses and doing the same thing to
another group of people? Focus on the Child, not the Children.
GT | 10:01 a.m. May 30, 2008
Actually, the CPS or in Florida the DCF can remove children on a hint. They can
come to the school and take them out of the class and investigate an alleged
complaint. They do not tell the parents first they just take the children. Did
you know this? I am talking about little preschool and elementary white kids.
Here in Florida one false move against the black kids is cause for severe
reactions from ACLU and the likes of Sharpton. I think we had better pay
attention, until ACLU got involved in Texas nothing constitutionally correct
happened.
Re: DNA is yet to come | 10:02 a.m. May 30, 2008
The State needs to stand strong and continue to protect these children. As the
DNA comes in the real crimes will become quite obvious. No child should be
released until the true parents (both of them) are identified, and then they
should be closely monitored. The higher courts are demanding proof, and giving
CPS the chance to get it. The lies have made it difficult, but they need to
break up this cycle of abuse that is nothing more than white slavery. The
sooner this cult is broken up the better.
to J-man | 10:23 a.m. May 30, 2008
Merril Jessop isn't in hiding simply because you don't have his phone
number and do not know where he is at.
Robin | 10:37 a.m. May 30, 2008
Let's all live together in peace and love. Some of these comments are
hurtful. No children should be abused in any community. And as far as the books
go-- All should not be judged by what is in the books about some. Why did Ms.
Jessups daughter go back to the community of FLDS if it was so horrible there
for her? I like the posts by Mike who hired and worked with the FLDS men. I
think we all need to love each other and look for the good in each others lives.
Being judgemental isn't helpful to anyone.
Bessy | 10:43 a.m. May 30, 2008
I have watched the way the FLDS mother's walk and carry themselves. They
are not whimps. They seem strong and determined. It seem to live their life
style because they want to.
AnonOhio | 10:48 a.m. May 30, 2008
'Scuse me, but isn't polygomy illegal? What's with the total
victimization? Shouldn't the Jessups and other men could answer for
themselves why they don't pay child support for all their children? The
alleged initial phone call is beside the point. Withholding from kids who their
parents are is emotional abuse. Reassigning women & kids is sooooo wrong.
Not allowing women & kids freedom to choose between their community or
outside is mind control. Any healthy group is open to examination, and getting
rid of sexist & racist belittling. Clean house & open the gates. Evil
isn't the "outsiders" - we all are capable of it. The kids are
not going to be permanently harmed from this - c'mom - kids are adaptable.
spirtree | 10:52 a.m. May 30, 2008
Thank you to the high courts of Texas. Something is going right at one level at
least. This is of course a never ending action that will continue to play out
in the lives of the children and parents and even in the lives of the Texas
officials that got caught up in this wrong action for the right reasons (if
there was abuse?) Hopefully they can return the children as quickly as they took
them.
Appalled | 10:55 a.m. May 30, 2008
CPS may only have been able to identify 5 underage mothers, but DNA evidence
could yet reveal a persistent pattern of abuse.
If so, why rip the children away from their mothers - if it is the men who are committing the abuse? Anyone who has dealt with CPS in any state knows this: If a mother choses loyalty to her husband/partner over the safety of her children, she stands to lose the children.
Think about it: If a mother stands by and watches her partner abuse her children - she is pretty much useless as a parent. She is failing in her fundamental duty to ensure their well-being. She may love her children and want to be with them -but she loses the right to raise them when she fails to protect them.
She is an adult. She is expected to act like one and do what needs to be done to protect her children. If she claims she can't - she is not truly functioning as an adult and demonstrates she cannot protect her children and therefore cannot parent them. This is heartbreaking, but it is certainly not unique to the FLDS case.
If so, why rip the children away from their mothers - if it is the men who are committing the abuse? Anyone who has dealt with CPS in any state knows this: If a mother choses loyalty to her husband/partner over the safety of her children, she stands to lose the children.
Think about it: If a mother stands by and watches her partner abuse her children - she is pretty much useless as a parent. She is failing in her fundamental duty to ensure their well-being. She may love her children and want to be with them -but she loses the right to raise them when she fails to protect them.
She is an adult. She is expected to act like one and do what needs to be done to protect her children. If she claims she can't - she is not truly functioning as an adult and demonstrates she cannot protect her children and therefore cannot parent them. This is heartbreaking, but it is certainly not unique to the FLDS case.
wrz | 11:02 a.m. May 30, 2008
"Texas is going to pay dearly for violating these people's
Constitutional Rights...and rightly so! Never have I seen such abuses of power,
as what these people had to endure."
My bet is that these people will not sue anyone.* They are basically gentle people and just want to be left alone to do their thing.
I'd also bet that they will not be having sex with anyone under 16 from now on. They will, of course, continue to have sex.
*Although they should.
My bet is that these people will not sue anyone.* They are basically gentle people and just want to be left alone to do their thing.
I'd also bet that they will not be having sex with anyone under 16 from now on. They will, of course, continue to have sex.
*Although they should.
Jane | 11:01 a.m. May 30, 2008
To 10:02
I totally agree. The sooner the cult is broken up the better.
I totally agree. The sooner the cult is broken up the better.
Mother of boys | 11:11 a.m. May 30, 2008
I think there should be more emphasis on the abuse inherent in raising
under-educated boys to fear the outside world, and them dumping large numbers of
them to avoid competition for brides. If I were an FLDS mother, I'd fear
for the safety of my boys as much or more than that of my girls. Why were there
so few boys over the age of 12 at the ranch? Where are the boys???
wrz | 11:15 a.m. May 30, 2008
"When these children are safely home, the parents are going to grab their
gear and head for the nearest border out of Texas."
It's my understanding that the Court has, or will order them to not leave the area or leave the state. If they do, they will be committing a crime and will be arrested, prosecuted, and possibly jailed. They are still under investigation for child abuse.
I think the courts have a little too much power.
It's my understanding that the Court has, or will order them to not leave the area or leave the state. If they do, they will be committing a crime and will be arrested, prosecuted, and possibly jailed. They are still under investigation for child abuse.
I think the courts have a little too much power.
Warren didn't return the kids | 11:35 a.m. May 30, 2008
Arizona and Utah gave the children back in 1953. Texas gave them back in 2008.
There is due process and given time, justice generally prevails.
But Warren took wives from husbands and children away fathers. There was no due process. Unlike Utah, Arizona and Texas, he didn't give them back.
He has well over 70 wives (probably closer to 100), including ones he married at 12. That means 69+ boys won't get a wife in that community and are run out of town if they make the slightest deviation--like watching movies or questioning authority. These same mothers who fight to get their children back from Texas don't think twice about turning their backs on their own sons, shunning them and refusing to speak to them because Warren said they are "apostates." These are generally good, hard working boys who have had their fill of compulsion and false religion, but in turning their back on all religions lose their moral bearings.
Meanwhile, most continue supporting this self-proclaimed "wicked and deceitful man" as a prophet. Old men prop him up to get more wives. These are mostly wonderful people, but there is unmistakable evil among the leaders who control them.
But Warren took wives from husbands and children away fathers. There was no due process. Unlike Utah, Arizona and Texas, he didn't give them back.
He has well over 70 wives (probably closer to 100), including ones he married at 12. That means 69+ boys won't get a wife in that community and are run out of town if they make the slightest deviation--like watching movies or questioning authority. These same mothers who fight to get their children back from Texas don't think twice about turning their backs on their own sons, shunning them and refusing to speak to them because Warren said they are "apostates." These are generally good, hard working boys who have had their fill of compulsion and false religion, but in turning their back on all religions lose their moral bearings.
Meanwhile, most continue supporting this self-proclaimed "wicked and deceitful man" as a prophet. Old men prop him up to get more wives. These are mostly wonderful people, but there is unmistakable evil among the leaders who control them.
TO WRZ | 11:35 a.m. May 30, 2008
WRZ...you sound so much like Willie Jessop, Could one assume...you are one of a
kind?
The summarizer | 11:37 a.m. May 30, 2008
The abuse of government power has been restrained. Good. It restores my faith
in our system of government.
Now, the DNA evidence will determine whether Jeffs is really a pedophile. If he is we'll know soon.
If any other crime has been committed, the state of Texas will prosecute, because otherwise they will never recover from the uncooked chicken embryos smeared all over their faces by the appeals court decision.
If these FLDS people really behave as badly as they dress, and really are criminals (rather that just criminally bad dressers and hair stylists) they need to be convicted of those crimes. I didn't agree with snatching 450 children away from their parents, but I'm a big supporter of neutering pedophiles.
Now, the DNA evidence will determine whether Jeffs is really a pedophile. If he is we'll know soon.
If any other crime has been committed, the state of Texas will prosecute, because otherwise they will never recover from the uncooked chicken embryos smeared all over their faces by the appeals court decision.
If these FLDS people really behave as badly as they dress, and really are criminals (rather that just criminally bad dressers and hair stylists) they need to be convicted of those crimes. I didn't agree with snatching 450 children away from their parents, but I'm a big supporter of neutering pedophiles.
Sleuth | 11:46 a.m. May 30, 2008
The nation enjoyed a victory today for civil rights. Each person in the US can
continue to maintain a reasonable expectation of equal privileges ands
immunities and equal protection under the law, against unlawful state action.
It's unfortunate this case wasn't about child sexual abuse or oppressed mothers. But what can you expect? CPS violated so many laws and rights in their misplaced enthusiasm to annihilate a religion that they lost their legal standing. This fiasco amounts to an absurd loss of millions of tax payer's dollars expended to satisfy CPS's false sense of authority.
Ironically, in their fervor to protect the children and mothers, they harmed them irreparably. They will forever hate state authority. Now there's irony.
It's unfortunate this case wasn't about child sexual abuse or oppressed mothers. But what can you expect? CPS violated so many laws and rights in their misplaced enthusiasm to annihilate a religion that they lost their legal standing. This fiasco amounts to an absurd loss of millions of tax payer's dollars expended to satisfy CPS's false sense of authority.
Ironically, in their fervor to protect the children and mothers, they harmed them irreparably. They will forever hate state authority. Now there's irony.
realitycheck | 11:47 a.m. May 30, 2008
I still say these people are more Taliban than American and they should move to
Afganistan....
J-man | 12:09 p.m. May 30, 2008
Be honest, Merril Jessop has been laying low and hiding from day one of the
raid.
And the reason is to avoid providing DNA.
And the reason is to avoid providing DNA.
Better than them... | 12:16 p.m. May 30, 2008
Interesting that the best defense FLDS defenders can come up with for the abuses
that have been proven (the known underage "brides") is that worse
things happen in American inner cities. True, but CPS is active there too.
What makes this case unique is that the worst perpetrator is the spiritual leader of the community. If there were a few cases of abuse scattered among families and routinely condemned by the religious leadership when uncovered, there would be no story.
Inner cities also experience appallingly high rates of murder. If the members YFZ ranch stood accused of numerous incidents of that crime - with their spiritual head leading by example and exhortation - would anyone dare offer the "it happens outside the ranch too" defense?
What makes this case unique is that the worst perpetrator is the spiritual leader of the community. If there were a few cases of abuse scattered among families and routinely condemned by the religious leadership when uncovered, there would be no story.
Inner cities also experience appallingly high rates of murder. If the members YFZ ranch stood accused of numerous incidents of that crime - with their spiritual head leading by example and exhortation - would anyone dare offer the "it happens outside the ranch too" defense?
This is sickening | 12:15 p.m. May 30, 2008
You people are seriously twisted. You are celebrating the return of children to
a culture of sexual abuse. Did you not see the pictures of their Pedophile
prophet? Do you people live in a cave? Are you just ignorant or do you not care
that these little girls are being raped? Before you pop the cork on the apple
cider consider this. They have to match the DNA to the mom and dad which may
prove daunting since the baby daddies perverts have run as far as they could.
Looks like warren the worst is one of those baby daddies. I guess I should not
be surprised by your elation, you are after all kinfolk. Sick, sick sick
G | 12:49 p.m. May 30, 2008
"Inner cities also experience appallingly high rates of murder."
The appellate court ruled that there were five examples of teenage girls that were abused. CPS took 450 kids. (It was also noted that there were a number of less invasive alternatives CPS could of used to protect children at risk.)
That's a 1.1% rate of abuse amongst the kids seized.
What percentage would you consider "appalling high rates" of abuse?
What percentage of kids in the general Texas population do you think were abused?
The appellate court ruled that there were five examples of teenage girls that were abused. CPS took 450 kids. (It was also noted that there were a number of less invasive alternatives CPS could of used to protect children at risk.)
That's a 1.1% rate of abuse amongst the kids seized.
What percentage would you consider "appalling high rates" of abuse?
What percentage of kids in the general Texas population do you think were abused?
Too "Anonymous | 9:02 a.m." | 1:21 p.m. May 30, 2008
What happend to your gracious "Live and let live" society you claim to
bask in down there in California? I've noticed you don't share much
of your "Live and let live" philosophy when it comes to the FLDS.
I wonder if your "Live and let live" sun only shine on SOME who are different and/or oppressed?
I wonder if your "Live and let live" sun only shine on SOME who are different and/or oppressed?
Hey mother of boys | 1:55 p.m. May 30, 2008
The "lost boys" are not necessarily minors, nor were they kicked out.
It seems many just left because they didn't like the lifestyle, not that I
can blame them. Some if not many of the "boys" were in their
20's. Go to gosanangelo and look around that paper. After reading that
and the fact that the "lost boys" settled for money (again even though
they were legal when they left) over verdict, I failed to trust their claims.
Art | 1:55 p.m. May 30, 2008
I am reminded of a few Marxist goals:
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. (CPS)
40. Discredit the family as an institution.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents.
A Google search: Marxist goals 1963, will show many more!
38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. (CPS)
40. Discredit the family as an institution.
41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents.
A Google search: Marxist goals 1963, will show many more!
On CPS | 1:58 p.m. May 30, 2008
The problem is that CPS isn't active with other cases. TX was motivated
to get rid of these "freaks" and tried to use a kangaroo court to do
so. Fortunately, the Court of Appeals and the Supreme Court still honor the
Constitution, even for unsavories.
Hey AnonOhio | 2:05 p.m. May 30, 2008
Willie Jessop doesn't pay child support because he is active in the raising
of his children. One, after living outside the community for 5 years and the
daughter of Caroline Jessop, returned when she turned 18.
Polygamy is illegal, but they do not legally marry so technically they are just shacking up.
The kids will be harmed especially if one of the many many homes they were sent to contained abusers as can be found in the recent arrest of a man that CPS determined "safe." In the "care" of CPS it is possible that some were abused especially when discussing over 400 children, but probable and the very reason the courts believe the family should remain intact if at all possible.
The law allows for removing ALL the MEN but CPS refused that option. Even the court wondered why.
Polygamy is illegal, but they do not legally marry so technically they are just shacking up.
The kids will be harmed especially if one of the many many homes they were sent to contained abusers as can be found in the recent arrest of a man that CPS determined "safe." In the "care" of CPS it is possible that some were abused especially when discussing over 400 children, but probable and the very reason the courts believe the family should remain intact if at all possible.
The law allows for removing ALL the MEN but CPS refused that option. Even the court wondered why.
Bob | 2:33 p.m. May 30, 2008
The ACLU really showed their true colors on this one. No one will ever believe
that they aren't just pursuing a liberal agenda now. Trudy, I doubt the
school cared about losing the "A" student. They were just doing their
due diligence. It is not like they get extra money because you had an
"A" student.
BeeCareful | 4:09 p.m. May 30, 2008
The court decided to follow the law. How could the attorneys at the CPS have
thought it would turn out differently? They must have been asleep in their
constitutional law classes.
One can only hope that an equitable agreement can be arranged to allow reunification that will protect the minor girls from sexual predation without trampling all over their constitutional and religious rights. When the girls are adults, they should be allowed to live however they wish as long as they are not violating the law.
Bigamy should remain against the law. It is fraud.
Sexual abuse of minor girls should likewise be against the law. It is despicable and indefensible.
Polygamy among consenting adults, which is nothing more than cohabitation (and is practiced commonly all over this nation) should not be illegal as long as no 2nd civil marriage is contracted. It may not be the behavior choice most of us would make, but among consenting adults, there really is no way to prevent it, and there hasn't been in all of recorded human history.
One can only hope that an equitable agreement can be arranged to allow reunification that will protect the minor girls from sexual predation without trampling all over their constitutional and religious rights. When the girls are adults, they should be allowed to live however they wish as long as they are not violating the law.
Bigamy should remain against the law. It is fraud.
Sexual abuse of minor girls should likewise be against the law. It is despicable and indefensible.
Polygamy among consenting adults, which is nothing more than cohabitation (and is practiced commonly all over this nation) should not be illegal as long as no 2nd civil marriage is contracted. It may not be the behavior choice most of us would make, but among consenting adults, there really is no way to prevent it, and there hasn't been in all of recorded human history.
G | 4:16 p.m. May 30, 2008
"The ACLU really showed their true colors on this one. No one will ever
believe that they aren't just pursuing a liberal agenda now."
Actually they're opposing liberalism. People that believe the government should kick in doors and seize hundreds of children are liberals, NOT true conservatives, even if they are motivated by the bigotry commonly and misleadingly referred to as "social conservatism".
CPS and similar departments are an inherently socialist invention that arose from ideals like those behind the New Deal and the Great Society , not the libertarian ideals the founding fathers had in mind.
This is not to say that CPS is incapable of doing some good here and there. Even the Soviet Union could do that.
Actually they're opposing liberalism. People that believe the government should kick in doors and seize hundreds of children are liberals, NOT true conservatives, even if they are motivated by the bigotry commonly and misleadingly referred to as "social conservatism".
CPS and similar departments are an inherently socialist invention that arose from ideals like those behind the New Deal and the Great Society , not the libertarian ideals the founding fathers had in mind.
This is not to say that CPS is incapable of doing some good here and there. Even the Soviet Union could do that.
re: G | 4:23 p.m. May 30, 2008
>>That's a 1.1% rate of abuse amongst the kids seized.
What percentage would you consider "appalling high rates" of abuse? <<
We don't know what the rate is at this point. Are you suggesting that a 1.1% abuse rate is acceptable? In fact, only 1.1 % is currently proven based on the number of pregnant underage girls (the only scenario that does not require a DNA test). That percentage could go up substantially once DNA results come in. Boys and pre-pubescent girls can't become pregnant - so their numbers don't count in the stats either - though they may be in the process of being groomed for future abuse. If the culture promotes abuse, they are at risk. Your argument is highly deceptive, but I assume that is the intent.
The "other people do worse things" argument has never held much weight in court - or in terms of a moral argument. Sexual abuse of young girls is unacceptable and the state has a responsibility to do what they can to stop it.
What percentage would you consider "appalling high rates" of abuse? <<
We don't know what the rate is at this point. Are you suggesting that a 1.1% abuse rate is acceptable? In fact, only 1.1 % is currently proven based on the number of pregnant underage girls (the only scenario that does not require a DNA test). That percentage could go up substantially once DNA results come in. Boys and pre-pubescent girls can't become pregnant - so their numbers don't count in the stats either - though they may be in the process of being groomed for future abuse. If the culture promotes abuse, they are at risk. Your argument is highly deceptive, but I assume that is the intent.
The "other people do worse things" argument has never held much weight in court - or in terms of a moral argument. Sexual abuse of young girls is unacceptable and the state has a responsibility to do what they can to stop it.
Interloper | 4:45 p.m. May 30, 2008
The five girls who are known to have been impregnated while under 16 are those
currently minors. Add adult women who were impregnated as young teens and those
girls and women who were 'married' but did not give birth and the
number of those sexually exploited who have lived for a time at YFZ Ranch is
likely 40 or 50. Based on the new charges, Warren Jeffs alone may have
'married' or impregnated five or more young girls. It is unfortunate
that the misleading figure of 'only five' was not examined more
closely by the courts.
The DNA tests are not yet finished. But, there will be reason enough to end the FLDS' celebration when they are.
The DNA tests are not yet finished. But, there will be reason enough to end the FLDS' celebration when they are.
FLDS girl | 4:51 p.m. May 30, 2008
Just because they don't | 8:38 a.m. May 30, 2008
Know anything else, doesn't mean that they would not want other things! There are plenty of news reports showing girls that leave this type of community when they get the chance,
I'd leave right now if I wanted to--just walk up to my dad and say I want to leave. Do you know what would happen? He'd propbably cry,I know it would break his heart but he would help me find somewhere to live, give me some money and wish me the best. It happens all the time but those who do it don't have a big horrific story to splash, interesting huh. It's a free country and it's my belief that we FLDS people are the freest on earth- no I'm not brain washed or uneducated.
Know anything else, doesn't mean that they would not want other things! There are plenty of news reports showing girls that leave this type of community when they get the chance,
I'd leave right now if I wanted to--just walk up to my dad and say I want to leave. Do you know what would happen? He'd propbably cry,I know it would break his heart but he would help me find somewhere to live, give me some money and wish me the best. It happens all the time but those who do it don't have a big horrific story to splash, interesting huh. It's a free country and it's my belief that we FLDS people are the freest on earth- no I'm not brain washed or uneducated.
Anonymous | 4:55 p.m. May 30, 2008
re: AZBorderDude | 9:16 a.m. May 30, 2008
They didn't refuse to give information they were told that their information was false. Go figure.
They didn't refuse to give information they were told that their information was false. Go figure.
Mother of boys-2 | 4:57 p.m. May 30, 2008
>>The "lost boys" are not necessarily minors, nor were they
kicked out.
Oh please. The percentage of girls and boys is roughly equal at birth. In order for this system to work, you *have* to expel excess boys. How can some men have 20 to 70 wives, while still maintaining a place in the community for every boy born into it?
It is mathematically impossible. If I were an FLDS member, I would be very afraid for my boys. You can call it personal choice, but the math suggests differently.
That side of polygamy doesn't get enough attention, IMO.
There is convincing evidence that these two practices are rampant in the FLDS:
1) Pushing girls into marriage as young as possible. From the outside, it sure looks as though the FLDS is afraid they might opt out if allowed to mature. If the girls don't comply, there is no FLDS.
2) Forcing unwanted (and under-educated) boys out because there are not enough brides.
Both practices are abusive and calling the FLDS on them is not persecution. It is indefensible to use religion as a cover for abuse -even if the perpetrators are sincere. The 9/11 hijackers were sincere too.
Oh please. The percentage of girls and boys is roughly equal at birth. In order for this system to work, you *have* to expel excess boys. How can some men have 20 to 70 wives, while still maintaining a place in the community for every boy born into it?
It is mathematically impossible. If I were an FLDS member, I would be very afraid for my boys. You can call it personal choice, but the math suggests differently.
That side of polygamy doesn't get enough attention, IMO.
There is convincing evidence that these two practices are rampant in the FLDS:
1) Pushing girls into marriage as young as possible. From the outside, it sure looks as though the FLDS is afraid they might opt out if allowed to mature. If the girls don't comply, there is no FLDS.
2) Forcing unwanted (and under-educated) boys out because there are not enough brides.
Both practices are abusive and calling the FLDS on them is not persecution. It is indefensible to use religion as a cover for abuse -even if the perpetrators are sincere. The 9/11 hijackers were sincere too.
G | 5:19 p.m. May 30, 2008
"We don't know what the rate is at this point."
That is the only number CPS has managed to produce to justify their action so far.
If anything higher than a 1% rate justifies mass seizure, maybe CPS should hit your neighborhood next. After all, just ONE instance of abuse is unacceptable, wouldn't you agree?
That is the only number CPS has managed to produce to justify their action so far.
If anything higher than a 1% rate justifies mass seizure, maybe CPS should hit your neighborhood next. After all, just ONE instance of abuse is unacceptable, wouldn't you agree?
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