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MormonTimes.com: Raiders of the lost Book of Mormon DNA
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Patrol | 9:57 a.m. June 1, 2008
Just a couple of comments. For all of you who are insistant that Joseph Smith
is a fraud and the Book of Mormon is a hoax.... It is time to move on with your
life. If you don't believe it fine. Move On! Get a new hobby, and find
something you do believe in. I watched the video and thought it was very good,
and if nothing else made you think. Again if you have issue with any Mormon
docterine, remember your not required to believe it. You can study something
else.
A few points | 10:02 a.m. June 1, 2008
1. Thanks to all of you for sharing your different opinions.
2. No question that evidence can and does strengthen testimonies. It is very naive to think that BofM era writings mentioning BofM names or places would not strengthen testimonies or even bring back many who have fallen away. It is just that unfortunately there is literally no evidence that does not have to first be stretched or manipulated to even POSSIBLY fit the BofM claims or narrative.
3. The Church was very excited when the physical evidence of the Book of Abraham scrolls were discovered and given back to the Church. Here was physical evidence that could be translated to show JS did do what he said he did. But soon it was shown that these were very ordinary funerary texts written hundreds of years after the time of Abraham. Apologetic work now tries to say that maybe JS just looked at them for inspiration - contrary to the fact that he said he translated the actual words of Abraham. The point is that the Church wants and continues to look for physical evidence but at every turn it proves inadequate and only makes their claims more unbelievable.
2. No question that evidence can and does strengthen testimonies. It is very naive to think that BofM era writings mentioning BofM names or places would not strengthen testimonies or even bring back many who have fallen away. It is just that unfortunately there is literally no evidence that does not have to first be stretched or manipulated to even POSSIBLY fit the BofM claims or narrative.
3. The Church was very excited when the physical evidence of the Book of Abraham scrolls were discovered and given back to the Church. Here was physical evidence that could be translated to show JS did do what he said he did. But soon it was shown that these were very ordinary funerary texts written hundreds of years after the time of Abraham. Apologetic work now tries to say that maybe JS just looked at them for inspiration - contrary to the fact that he said he translated the actual words of Abraham. The point is that the Church wants and continues to look for physical evidence but at every turn it proves inadequate and only makes their claims more unbelievable.
To Someone Please Answer | 10:12 a.m. June 1, 2008
First of all, what's embarrassing about early LDS prophets saying that the
Garden of Eden was in North America? That's not something we stopped
teaching or never make reference to. The fact is, nobody's digging up
Jackson County, MO, looking for the Garden of Eden or other ancient
civilizations, are they? They're all busy digging up in Africa.
Also, if there was a worldwide flood, I'm pretty sure some of those remains could have shifted from their original locations, the way fossils often do. I once read that only an estimated 5% of remains are ever fossilized, because so many other factors contribute to physical remains being lost over time. Not to mention all the various earthquakes and other natural disasters this continent has seen over the years. Surely that had some effect.
There could be any number of reasons why you haven't found the proof you're hoping for. We don't have all the answers right now, but nobody's trying to hide from that doctrine. I still hear mention of it from time to time in my meetings. Eventually someday, we'll learn the truth of all things. Until then, we just have to make due the best we can.
Also, if there was a worldwide flood, I'm pretty sure some of those remains could have shifted from their original locations, the way fossils often do. I once read that only an estimated 5% of remains are ever fossilized, because so many other factors contribute to physical remains being lost over time. Not to mention all the various earthquakes and other natural disasters this continent has seen over the years. Surely that had some effect.
There could be any number of reasons why you haven't found the proof you're hoping for. We don't have all the answers right now, but nobody's trying to hide from that doctrine. I still hear mention of it from time to time in my meetings. Eventually someday, we'll learn the truth of all things. Until then, we just have to make due the best we can.
Comments continue below
The Gold Plates | 10:20 a.m. June 1, 2008
To "Brother Chuch Schroeder" and the other person who backed up his
questions, the thing is, those plates are sacred. They were only ever shown to a
small handful of people to begin with. The reason they're not on display in
the Church History Museum or something like that could be that the Lord asked us
not to cast our pearls before swine. Meaning, sacred evidences should not be
paraded before nonbelievers.
Sure, they could be used as missionary tools, but then you've got knowledge, not faith. Heavenly Father has been very clear, all throughout all of the standard works, that He tests the faith of His followers from time to time. Not having easy access to the plates is a test of faith. If we're willing to believe in Him without hard "proof", that's pleasing to Him. When we demand signs and evidence before we'll believe, He's less pleased with us. There are many examples of this in the Bible, since you don't believe in the BOM.
I'm sure you'll find fault with my replies, and I know it certainly won't change your mind about it, but there it is anyway.
Sure, they could be used as missionary tools, but then you've got knowledge, not faith. Heavenly Father has been very clear, all throughout all of the standard works, that He tests the faith of His followers from time to time. Not having easy access to the plates is a test of faith. If we're willing to believe in Him without hard "proof", that's pleasing to Him. When we demand signs and evidence before we'll believe, He's less pleased with us. There are many examples of this in the Bible, since you don't believe in the BOM.
I'm sure you'll find fault with my replies, and I know it certainly won't change your mind about it, but there it is anyway.
Just one thing... | 10:30 a.m. June 1, 2008
Science changes everyday, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't study it.
What we do know is incredible compared to even a year ago. And nothing in
science contradicts the Book of Mormon. So they haven't found the markers
yet, big deal. We don't know exactly what sort of DNA marker they're
supposed to be looking for, anyway. Nobody knows what kind of DNA Lehi and his
family had, or the Mulekites, or the Zoramites, or the Ishmaelites, or the
Jaredites, or any of the other groups. In time, everybody will know the truth,
regardless of what that happens to be. Until then, here's something to keep
in mind:
"Ye cannot behold with your natural eyes, for the present time, the design of your God concerning those things..." - D&C 58:3.
For all eternity is a pretty long time. We don't need every single answer to every single question right this second. Be patient, and study what you can, and in time, the answers will come.
"Ye cannot behold with your natural eyes, for the present time, the design of your God concerning those things..." - D&C 58:3.
For all eternity is a pretty long time. We don't need every single answer to every single question right this second. Be patient, and study what you can, and in time, the answers will come.
To: The Gold Plates | 10:48 a.m. June 1, 2008
Cast your pearls before swine? Are gentiles and most of the LDS population who
would love to see the golden plates "swine"? Did you know that the
Churc spends several million dollars each year on archaelogical digs? Why are
they doing research if not for the sole purpose of finding proof? Please
respond.
To Gold Plates | 11:03 a.m. June 1, 2008
I am a member - not an anti. And I do understand your reasoning. The idea that
some things are too sacred to be left for evidence can help provide a rational
and comfort level for why there is so little physical evidence of certain LDS
claims.
And yet the egyptian papyra used by Joseph Smith to translate the BofA offers a very different perspective. JS claimed these scrolls contained the actual hand writing of the Patriarch Abraham. Were that to be true we would have possession of one of the greatest archeological and religious finds of all time. Certainly something that could fit into the category of highly sacred to be withheld from the view of man as evidence. And yet they showed up in the 1960's. There is little valid dispute that they were the scrolls JS claimed to use in creating the BofA. The Church was very excited to have this piece of 'evidence'. Even as a defender of the Church, I cannot deny that since that find the scrolls have proven to be a huge embarrassment and, without using all kinds of supernatural alternate explanations, show JS did not do what he claimed regarding the BofA.
And yet the egyptian papyra used by Joseph Smith to translate the BofA offers a very different perspective. JS claimed these scrolls contained the actual hand writing of the Patriarch Abraham. Were that to be true we would have possession of one of the greatest archeological and religious finds of all time. Certainly something that could fit into the category of highly sacred to be withheld from the view of man as evidence. And yet they showed up in the 1960's. There is little valid dispute that they were the scrolls JS claimed to use in creating the BofA. The Church was very excited to have this piece of 'evidence'. Even as a defender of the Church, I cannot deny that since that find the scrolls have proven to be a huge embarrassment and, without using all kinds of supernatural alternate explanations, show JS did not do what he claimed regarding the BofA.
Re: Comment at 10:48 | 11:11 a.m. June 1, 2008
"Are gentiles and most of the LDS population who would love to see the
golden plates "swine"?" That's not what I said, please
don't put words in my mouth. I would love to see the plates myself, but I
don't NEED to see them to have a testimony. I joined the church without
ever having seen them. It's great when you find evidences of things to
corrorborate your testimony, but if you can't have a testimony without that
proof, that's when problems can occur.
"Did you know that the Churc spends several million dollars each year on archaelogical digs? Why are they doing research if not for the sole purpose of finding proof?" Yes, I do know that. I used to be an archeology major for a while in college, because I wanted to go down to Central & South America and help search. Like I said, proof is great. But when you refuse to believe without proof, when you demand that evidence before you'll trust in the Lord, that's a very slippery slope to be on. Please remember the sermon that Alma gave to Korihor in Alma 30 - demanding signs is a very dangerous thing to do.
"Did you know that the Churc spends several million dollars each year on archaelogical digs? Why are they doing research if not for the sole purpose of finding proof?" Yes, I do know that. I used to be an archeology major for a while in college, because I wanted to go down to Central & South America and help search. Like I said, proof is great. But when you refuse to believe without proof, when you demand that evidence before you'll trust in the Lord, that's a very slippery slope to be on. Please remember the sermon that Alma gave to Korihor in Alma 30 - demanding signs is a very dangerous thing to do.
To: Commentor at 11:03 | 11:18 a.m. June 1, 2008
...do you not believe the PoGP is inspired scripture, then? You don't think
the BoA is true, regardless of how Joseph came to interpret it?
Because I don't care how he was able to do it, or from what sources the translation is from, those are very important scriptures to have, and I'm very grateful to my Heavenly Father for finding a way to provide them for us.
Because I don't care how he was able to do it, or from what sources the translation is from, those are very important scriptures to have, and I'm very grateful to my Heavenly Father for finding a way to provide them for us.
Shut down FARMS and others | 11:23 a.m. June 1, 2008
How long can members of the Church stand by and watch millions of our tithing
dollars funneled to the search for evidence. A search that has done literally
nothing but destroy testimonies (often those of the researchers themselves) and
make the Church look foolish. Religion is about faith and a spiritual path for
life. It is LONG past time for the Bretheren to stand up and proclaim that fact,
shut down embarrassing institutions like FARMS that are actually tied to BYU or
the Church and strongly encourage members to stop playing Indiana Jones. It is
time to close this period of trying to find "proof" and recognize that
is not what the restored gospel is all about. It may appear as a white flag to
some but to others, like me, it will be a relief and an end to spending tithing
dollars to hand ammunition to our detractors. I know FARMS has had and continues
to house a long list of LDS royalty but folks it is time to swallow a little
pride and stop the insanity. After watching the latest video presentation by
FARMS I was more than convinced that this is an absolute dead end. Enough
already!!!
Response to 11:18 | 11:33 a.m. June 1, 2008
The difficulty - one that I wish did not exist - is that Joseph Smith very
specifically indicated how the PoGP came to be and from what source. Sadly,
physical evidence requires us to now make a 180 and offer our own personal
explanations for how it was done in absolute contradiction of what JS himself
said. That in a nutshell is the problem with insisting on "evidence."
If we as members should not insist on it for our testimonies (which I agree
ultimately we should not) then the Church should take the lead and stop as well.
When the Church spends all kind of resources on their search for evidence it is
tough to then criticize members when that evidence throws our beliefs for a loop
or requires us to create constant alternate explanations to sustain our beliefs.
To 11:33 | 12:00 p.m. June 1, 2008
I actually don't think the two are mutually exclusive. I believe that
Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and I don't believe that he lied about how
the PoGP was given to us, and I also believe that the books are inspired
scripture. We weren't sitting in that room with Joseph when it happened, so
we don't really know how it came to be. Maybe Heavenly Father wanted us to
have those scriptures so badly that Joseph saw what he was supposed to see,
rather than what was actually there. He was human, and he made some very human
mistakes in his life. Maybe one of those mistakes was misunderstanding exactly
what happened when he translated those documents. You don't have to choose
between having faith and the lack of evidence supporting that faith. Often
times, they don't contradict each other, they just don't always go
hand in hand, either. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
And I don't think looking for evidence of the past is a bad thing. It may not always work out that our theories are correct, but they ARE only theories. There are many things we don't fully understand yet.
And I don't think looking for evidence of the past is a bad thing. It may not always work out that our theories are correct, but they ARE only theories. There are many things we don't fully understand yet.
FARMS | 12:39 p.m. June 1, 2008
Newspaper accounts proclaimed several Egyptian scholars translation of the BofA
papyri (in contrast to the JS version) in the Metropolitan Museum back in 1912.
The papyri was later donated to the Church in the 1960�s
and Nibley made several attempts at having them re-translated before dragging
his feet. I �m not sure why some here have claimed that
the Church was excited to get it�s hands on the document as
it had already been compared to JS translation many years earlier. Over all
those years the issue was dropped and buried. I understand that it is hard
enough to keep faith in the face of the adversity of little evidence, but how
the Church handles these types of
�difficult� issues makes it even more
challenging. Precisely why there was a perceived need to create FARMS. I
respect all religious beliefs, but I do not support converting others on
�milk,� theory, and folklore. I would
respectfully caution against harboring any illusions and take FARMS for just
what it is.
dderF | 1:37 p.m. June 1, 2008
I think God had to hide the proof so only worthy people with faith would be part
of the Church. After all, only the best can be part of the Church.
To: dderF | 1:53 p.m. June 1, 2008
LOL!!!
To 12:00 pm | 2:47 p.m. June 1, 2008
I appreciate that you obviously have a very strong testimony. But with all due
respect, it is after having to make comments like the one you made in order to
try to justify certain things that I have finally stepped back and asked myself
if maybe everything didn't occur the way we have been taught for so many
years.
You said - "Maybe Heavenly Father wanted us to have those scriptures so badly that Joseph saw what he was supposed to see, rather than what was actually there. He was human and he made some very human mistakes in his life. Maybe one of those mistakes was misunderstanding exactly what happened when he translated those documents."
I appreciate that this kind of thinking helps reinforce your testimony. The problem for me is that I have had to use this line of reasoning on a multitude of things regarding Church history and doctrine. I'm afraid the "plain" part of "plain and precious" is very much a myth. FARMS was created to "explain" difficulties similar to the way you have done. For some, this way of reasoning and explaining is helpful. For others, it becomes a very frustrating struggle against reason.
You said - "Maybe Heavenly Father wanted us to have those scriptures so badly that Joseph saw what he was supposed to see, rather than what was actually there. He was human and he made some very human mistakes in his life. Maybe one of those mistakes was misunderstanding exactly what happened when he translated those documents."
I appreciate that this kind of thinking helps reinforce your testimony. The problem for me is that I have had to use this line of reasoning on a multitude of things regarding Church history and doctrine. I'm afraid the "plain" part of "plain and precious" is very much a myth. FARMS was created to "explain" difficulties similar to the way you have done. For some, this way of reasoning and explaining is helpful. For others, it becomes a very frustrating struggle against reason.
LOL Indeed! | 3:47 p.m. June 1, 2008
My goodness, people want so much to believe the fairy tales they've heard
all their lives, they would rather not listen to reason and common sense.
Sorry, most of the world is going to common sense. Why would "God"
hide things from anyone? I'm astonished. And, by the way, I do have other
beliefs and other hobbies; I just stop by every once in a while for a smile!
Anonymous | 4:54 p.m. June 1, 2008
A number of people here question why God would hide things from us.
That goes goes to the heart of the purpose of why we are here.
That purpose is to test us and see if we will do as he commands us.
This is a test of faith.
Sure he could give us all the evidence and information we could want but that would not accomplish HIS purpose.
He gives us what we need to accomplish this test of faith and accomplish HIS work.
Regarding the Book of abraham, only about a third of the fragments have been found, the actual book of abraham could be part the missing 2/3's.
As for tranlations goes, actually both Joseph and the egyptologists could both be correct.
These funery texts most probably came from and were copied from an older source.
Joseph gave the original source translation through revelation.
The Egyptologists gave the "currently" used corrupted handed down version of the egyptians.
For those whose choose to study up on this papyri conumdrum know there are many possible explaintions. These are mine.
Bottom line is you are free choose to believe what you want, however that does not make Joseph Smith wrong.
That goes goes to the heart of the purpose of why we are here.
That purpose is to test us and see if we will do as he commands us.
This is a test of faith.
Sure he could give us all the evidence and information we could want but that would not accomplish HIS purpose.
He gives us what we need to accomplish this test of faith and accomplish HIS work.
Regarding the Book of abraham, only about a third of the fragments have been found, the actual book of abraham could be part the missing 2/3's.
As for tranlations goes, actually both Joseph and the egyptologists could both be correct.
These funery texts most probably came from and were copied from an older source.
Joseph gave the original source translation through revelation.
The Egyptologists gave the "currently" used corrupted handed down version of the egyptians.
For those whose choose to study up on this papyri conumdrum know there are many possible explaintions. These are mine.
Bottom line is you are free choose to believe what you want, however that does not make Joseph Smith wrong.
"Molly Mormon" | 5:17 p.m. June 1, 2008
I'm a Mormon and I personally believe the Book Of Mormon to be the word of
God along with the Bible from personal experiences of my own. I don't
think we should base our testimonies of the book on genetics or scientific
proof. Faith is not a perfect knowledge. So why are we making this such a big
deal? If you believe in it, fine, and if you don't, fine, but can we stop
bashing on eachother?
Geneticist | 5:17 p.m. June 1, 2008
I can tell you that one group of people that totaly dismisses Rod Meldrum's
musings....professional geneticist. To be brutally honest, believing Meldrum
regarding genetic markers is akin to allowing a plumber to perform brain surgery
simply because he slept at a Holiday Inn Express the previous night. The
article states that Meldrum researches peer reviewed papers. That is a far cry
from having his work peer reviewed. And, for the record, professional
geneticists do not consider the LDS perspective on Native Americans. 99% of the
worlds geneticists haven't a clue about the LDS church. So please, lay off
the conspiracy theories and follow the peer reviewed science not amateur hour.
Sign Seekers | 5:22 p.m. June 1, 2008
signs follow those who believe
"Molly Mormon" | 5:24 p.m. June 1, 2008
To LOL Indeed!:
Why would God hide things from us?
Well, for one thing, what if he DID tell us everything? We wouldn't be tested. If we all were born with a perfect knowledge of God, there wouldn't really be any reason for us to come to earth.
I have a personal belief in God. There have been times in my life when things have happened that could not have possibly happened without someone watching over me. I know God loves us each individually, and I hope others can come to this knowledge as well, with out needing help from scientific proof.
Hope you stop by again for more "smiles"!
Why would God hide things from us?
Well, for one thing, what if he DID tell us everything? We wouldn't be tested. If we all were born with a perfect knowledge of God, there wouldn't really be any reason for us to come to earth.
I have a personal belief in God. There have been times in my life when things have happened that could not have possibly happened without someone watching over me. I know God loves us each individually, and I hope others can come to this knowledge as well, with out needing help from scientific proof.
Hope you stop by again for more "smiles"!
Not very humble | 6:07 p.m. June 1, 2008
Stop it with the 'anti', 'anti's' and
'non-member' assumptions and talk. It is exclusive thinking and makes
The Saints look, well.... just plain bigoted.
I am ashammed for the line of thinking and in my own wordly humble opinion, I would never address those whom have differing opinions in this manner.
Like so many have said before, the Utah Saints make us all look bad and it is a pretty bad cultural reflection on both the church and the culture of Zion in the comments that are submitted in these posts.
I am ashammed for the line of thinking and in my own wordly humble opinion, I would never address those whom have differing opinions in this manner.
Like so many have said before, the Utah Saints make us all look bad and it is a pretty bad cultural reflection on both the church and the culture of Zion in the comments that are submitted in these posts.
To: Anonymous|4:54 | 6:19 p.m. June 1, 2008
There are no test. JS told you exactly and pinpionted these percieved fact
through his devine revelation. Know that his devine revelation has fallen
through we are back to basing everything off of faith? It is not a question of
faith so much as an attempt to preserve the concept of mormonism as JS presented
and unfortunatley that time has passed.
Hardly Humble | 6:22 p.m. June 1, 2008
Hardly Humble blames the posts in this forum on Utah "Saints"! And
here I am living in New York thinking that the internet doesn't know state
and national boundries. I think it is more reasonable to blames the
"saints" period, not just the ones from Utah.
To: Anonymous 4:54 pm | 6:35 p.m. June 1, 2008
Again, you like so many apologists over the years, are straining to find any
plausible explanation. The real scrolls are lost or JS looked at the scrolls and
was inspired to write the PoGP, or the explanation you gave. But all are large
stretches aimed at avoiding the most obvious explanation - that JS did not
accurately translate the scrolls.
Perhaps the most obvious proof of this is found in your PoGP. We all have seen the interesting looking egyptian drawings labeled Facsimile 1,2, and 3. Each are very common among egyptian scrolls and 2 and 3 have actual egyptian writing that Joseph Smith interpreted or explained. Unfortunately, his explanations were completely innacurate. Hence, the many different attempts to explain how he could get it so wrong while maintaining the belief that the PoGP is inspired scripture.
This really is no different than if someone who does not speak or read english found something with english writing that said "hello, my name is Bill" and "translated" it for his religious followers as "The idolatrous god of Elkenah" only to have those followers invent every explanation years later as to why he somehow in some spiritual way really got it right.
Perhaps the most obvious proof of this is found in your PoGP. We all have seen the interesting looking egyptian drawings labeled Facsimile 1,2, and 3. Each are very common among egyptian scrolls and 2 and 3 have actual egyptian writing that Joseph Smith interpreted or explained. Unfortunately, his explanations were completely innacurate. Hence, the many different attempts to explain how he could get it so wrong while maintaining the belief that the PoGP is inspired scripture.
This really is no different than if someone who does not speak or read english found something with english writing that said "hello, my name is Bill" and "translated" it for his religious followers as "The idolatrous god of Elkenah" only to have those followers invent every explanation years later as to why he somehow in some spiritual way really got it right.
Rancor | 7:13 p.m. June 1, 2008
A postulate:
Practically everyone considers himself/herself open-minded. Yet it's so easy for the rest of you to in fact be close-minded! (humor intended)
Some ideas:
1) A main message of the BOM is humility. I believe that it requires humility to accept the likelihood of the story of the BOM, and I think that JS proclaimed that to be the case.
Those who profess the BOM should show humility towards God, and reflect that to their fellow beings. It's hard over an anonymous board sometimes, but please try harder.
2) Another main message of the BOM: God has worked amongst all nations in accordance to the level He is enabled to by their agency. He works not to condemn the world, but to redeem it; but we usually don't let him. (The latter is also a very Biblical doctrine.)
I have felt the Holy Spirit bearing witness that Christ is the Lord of the whole Earth. One day all mankind will know it. The Lord has scattered Israel far wider than Palestine, and has worked amongst other nations than Israel.
There will be evidence of this. But evidence as a replacement of faith is not a Biblical doctrine either.
Practically everyone considers himself/herself open-minded. Yet it's so easy for the rest of you to in fact be close-minded! (humor intended)
Some ideas:
1) A main message of the BOM is humility. I believe that it requires humility to accept the likelihood of the story of the BOM, and I think that JS proclaimed that to be the case.
Those who profess the BOM should show humility towards God, and reflect that to their fellow beings. It's hard over an anonymous board sometimes, but please try harder.
2) Another main message of the BOM: God has worked amongst all nations in accordance to the level He is enabled to by their agency. He works not to condemn the world, but to redeem it; but we usually don't let him. (The latter is also a very Biblical doctrine.)
I have felt the Holy Spirit bearing witness that Christ is the Lord of the whole Earth. One day all mankind will know it. The Lord has scattered Israel far wider than Palestine, and has worked amongst other nations than Israel.
There will be evidence of this. But evidence as a replacement of faith is not a Biblical doctrine either.
Anonymous | 7:18 p.m. June 1, 2008
Thanks for sharing everyone; but now it is time to crawl back under the bridge.
I am impressed though, that there are so many anti's out there. The caravan
moves on and people are clearly aware of the presence of the church!
Jessica | 7:25 p.m. June 1, 2008
How does the Kinderhook Plates fit into whether the Lamanites and Nephites lived
in North America? These plates where found in North America I believe.
re: Jessica | 8:17 p.m. June 1, 2008
The Kinderhook Plates fit nowhere into the Nephite/Lamanite legend. The plates
were a 19th century forgery designed by a group of men to trick Joseph Smith
into translating them. It is disputed whether or not he actually did or took
them seriously, although at the time the supposed
�finding� created a stir in Nauvoo.
The only account that states that he did was by his scribe, Wm Clayton, who
indicated that Smith translated a portion of the plates and they contained
information of the descendants of Ham. This was incorporated into the History
of the Church. It was sometime in the 1980�s that the
Church examined the evidence and acknowledged as others had, that the plates
were fraudulent.
Playa | 8:24 p.m. June 1, 2008
Tests? God is giving us Tests? And the gist of the tests are that he hides truth
from us, gives us every reason NOT to believe something, and then the test is
whether or not we believe in the unbelievable, against all reason and knowledge
and sensibility (that he supposedly ALSO gave us)??
What kind of a fool is this God you believe in? That is not a test. That is playing games with human beings, in the same way the ancient Roman gods sat in their heavens and stirred up human events like a child stirs up an ant pile.
Well, if your God is such a juvenile delinquent who has nothing better to do that tease the human race, I want no part of him or his "Church". That is just a completely immoral, insane, and silly theophany!
What kind of a fool is this God you believe in? That is not a test. That is playing games with human beings, in the same way the ancient Roman gods sat in their heavens and stirred up human events like a child stirs up an ant pile.
Well, if your God is such a juvenile delinquent who has nothing better to do that tease the human race, I want no part of him or his "Church". That is just a completely immoral, insane, and silly theophany!
To Jessica | 8:25 p.m. June 1, 2008
The kinderhook Plates were forged by three men who pretended as if they found
them buried in an indian mound. They were taken to JS and JS claimed to
translate them. They have since been proven to be fake with symbols that mean
absolutely nothing. Just another embarrassing and impossible to explain piece of
the not-so-plain-and-precious-truths. Believe me, I wish LDS history and
doctrine was not so full of so many strange, embarrassing and difficult issues.
But I am at a point where I just am not spiritually limber enough anymore to
stretch logic into anymore pretzels in order to make it all seem ok. Google
Kinderhook Plates and you will see what I mean.
Anonymous | 9:19 p.m. June 1, 2008
The church will be proved true in its own time when Father in Heaven feels we
are ready. Most people around the world already acknowledge the truth of the
church through faith and the few of you haters out there are really making fools
of yoursleves with the almost comical assertions that are brought against the
church and truth it has attempted to offer to you.
Anonymous Are You on Something? | 10:28 p.m. June 1, 2008
Did you actually say "most people around the world already acknowledge the
truth of the church through faith?" Prepare yourself as this may come as a
shock but recent finds have shown that the "world" consists of
substantially more than Utah, southern Idaho, eastern Colorado, and some suburbs
of Las Vegas and Phoenix. A second shock may be that best estimates place actual
active LDS membership at 6.5 million. That rolling stone has hit a large
"lack of evidence" snag that has things stalled and starting to roll
backward.
Rancor | 11:07 p.m. June 1, 2008
To Playa: Saying that Mormon beliefs are simply nonsensical is an easy
assertion, but an incorrect one. Your time would be better spent doing
something other than reading Mormon-related blogs. I mean that sincerely, and
not offensively.
Although incredible, faith in the God of Israel is not irrational. But it can seem so to the wisdom of man. God designs it this way to test our humility. A test of this sort is not cruel, but it is life-altering. Not many believed in the Son of God when He was here on the Earth. Why would God allow that? In truth, He has to allow it, because all have their agency.
Irrefutable proofs of the Lord's ancient works are not in store for now. Evidence is present in so many forms, but only occasionally scientific.
I found the ideas of Mr. Meldrum to be enlightening. There are many more possibilities than usually considered. We need humility to accept the fact that we know little about the ancient past--even the most academic of us. Yet academics are not always the most humble by nature. Even though the adage "I know how much there is I don't know" rings true to them.
Although incredible, faith in the God of Israel is not irrational. But it can seem so to the wisdom of man. God designs it this way to test our humility. A test of this sort is not cruel, but it is life-altering. Not many believed in the Son of God when He was here on the Earth. Why would God allow that? In truth, He has to allow it, because all have their agency.
Irrefutable proofs of the Lord's ancient works are not in store for now. Evidence is present in so many forms, but only occasionally scientific.
I found the ideas of Mr. Meldrum to be enlightening. There are many more possibilities than usually considered. We need humility to accept the fact that we know little about the ancient past--even the most academic of us. Yet academics are not always the most humble by nature. Even though the adage "I know how much there is I don't know" rings true to them.
Testimony Evidence | 12:50 a.m. June 2, 2008
It does seem strange to me when people criticize Mormons for their
�lack of evidence� and then proudly
state they believe the bible for its
�historicity�. Most modern scholars
reject the reality of Moses, Adam, Jesus, which might be enough, but also find
no evidence of David, Solomon, etc. either (they are especially problematic
because outside the Bible, no other country�s records refer
them for commerce much less traveling to seek their wisdom as is the case for
Solomon). Muslim scholars have found no evidence of a temple in Jerusalem and
even the reality of Jericho and other such cities have been called into
question. Yes, the names have existed, but do the names refer to mythical places
and were simply adopted as people built cities in similar locations. In fact, of
the �Scriptures� of any group, the
Muslims have the greatest claim for historicity as their scriptures are not only
the most recent and so mention places that have been steadily occupied since the
Koran was written, but also have the most evidence of the occurrence of their
events as well as the existence of the people mentioned in it.
Part 2 | 12:51 a.m. June 2, 2008
Will most of you who base your faith on
�evidence� become Muslims if they have
more historical evidence? It is a question worth pondering as you criticize the
faith of others.
Offering My Respect | 8:26 a.m. June 2, 2008
I personally struggle with much about Church history and doctrine. I truly wish
there was not so much to potentially stumble over. But I also want to
acknowledge those of you who have exhibited your great faith through your
comments. While I personally cannot just set aside all the concerns I have I do
respect, admire and at times even envy your faith even in the face of probably
knowing many if not all of the same "problems" that have cause me to
doubt. Hopefully in the end the Lord will respect that my questions were as
sincere as your faith.
wake up and smell the pablum | 8:37 a.m. June 2, 2008
If Jews migrated to this hemisphere thousands of years ago, we would find ample
evidence of it. When people migrate (in a cultural,
archaeological/anthropological sense), they bring with them their culture and
their technology. Therefore, we should find many examples of Jewish culture and
technology among the rich corpus of artifacts that have been found in both North
and South America (and Mesoamerica); however, they just don't exist. In
fact, there is nothing in any cultures in this hemisphere that is
'Jewish', especially Mesoamerica. Unless FARMS has found a way to spin
torture, ritual mutilation, niche/cave/underworld worship, human sacrifice,
beheading-power transfer ritual, etc etc etc.
Talk to non-LDS archaelogists/anthropologists about the claims that FARMS and its ilk make and I'm afraid you'll get a very quick education...not about your faith, but about the same brand of 'science' and 'evidence' practiced in tabloids.
Talk to non-LDS archaelogists/anthropologists about the claims that FARMS and its ilk make and I'm afraid you'll get a very quick education...not about your faith, but about the same brand of 'science' and 'evidence' practiced in tabloids.
Why so literal? | 8:40 a.m. June 2, 2008
Christians started to acknowledge that many stories in the Bible are not literal
and that we can think of them as stories with a message.
The same is true of the BOM. You are not going to find the evidence, but you can get joy from the message in the stories.
It's time to come into the 21st century.
The same is true of the BOM. You are not going to find the evidence, but you can get joy from the message in the stories.
It's time to come into the 21st century.
Anon123 | 8:56 a.m. June 2, 2008
The biggest problem with religious claims by the LDS is their fear of
controversy. If you discuss things that might be "offensive" to a
member of the LDS Church, you are immediately branded "anti" and
dismissed out of hand.
"Contention is of the devil" they chant!
Even in the comments here, there is an implicit (and sometimes explicit) rule: if you can't say something 'nice' about the LDS Church, don't say anything at all"! [or if you do say something they don't like, they tell you to JUST LEAVE -- leave Utah, leave the Church, etc.]
Unless the LDS Church has NOTHING BUT GOOD in it, that is irrational. The TRUTH is that the Church has much to be ashamed of. Arrogance, pride, elitism, condemnation of others, dishonesty, violence, exploitation, misrepresentation, etc., to name a few.
To believe in the BOM, they say, requires "faith" in the unseen or unbelievable, and they combine that requirement with a requirement for your MONEY! In short, they ALL TAKE YOUR MONEY BASED ON SOME UNBELIEVABLE OR UNSEEN story! --like an MLM!
The best way to counteract that chronic,fraudulent aspect of theChurch is make the same evidentiary demands in religion we make in science.
"Contention is of the devil" they chant!
Even in the comments here, there is an implicit (and sometimes explicit) rule: if you can't say something 'nice' about the LDS Church, don't say anything at all"! [or if you do say something they don't like, they tell you to JUST LEAVE -- leave Utah, leave the Church, etc.]
Unless the LDS Church has NOTHING BUT GOOD in it, that is irrational. The TRUTH is that the Church has much to be ashamed of. Arrogance, pride, elitism, condemnation of others, dishonesty, violence, exploitation, misrepresentation, etc., to name a few.
To believe in the BOM, they say, requires "faith" in the unseen or unbelievable, and they combine that requirement with a requirement for your MONEY! In short, they ALL TAKE YOUR MONEY BASED ON SOME UNBELIEVABLE OR UNSEEN story! --like an MLM!
The best way to counteract that chronic,fraudulent aspect of theChurch is make the same evidentiary demands in religion we make in science.
To: Comment from 6:35 pm | 8:57 a.m. June 2, 2008
...I'm not "straining" to find anything. The first time I ever
even thought about the question was when I was replying to the questions posed
by the person I was talking to. You know why? Because to me, it doesn't
matter. It doesn't effect my testimony of the PoGP in any possible way, and
it doesn't even register on my radar. I realize that for some others, this
presents a big crisis of faith, but to me, it doesn't mean a thing. We
don't have all the answers yet, and there is a lot we don't fully
understand. We don't know how Joseph got the PoGP, but that doesn't
mean it's any less valid. We all have things we struggle with, but for me,
this isn't one of them. My testimony isn't built on this subject, and
so it's not affected by these speculations. I'm not looking everywhere
for an explanation, because really, it doesn't matter at all to me.
I'll find out what really happened in that room one day, and until then,
I'm content to wait.
To Anon123 | 9:04 a.m. June 2, 2008
Um. You have it backwards. The Church doesn't take our money, we give it to
the Church. And do you know why? Because we're showing our gratitude to our
Savior. He gave us that money in the first place, and because we're
grateful to Him for that, and for all of our other very many blessings, we
freely give some of that money back.
Proof | 9:23 a.m. June 2, 2008
Unfortunately for RodMeldrum and the LDSChurch, philosophers-of-science have
shown for centuries that any claim can be falsified by one single contradictory
piece of evidence. But "supporting" or "proving" claims is
only possible if ALL evidence is considered--that is, if-and-ONLY-if we are
omniscient/omnipotent in our investigation. As such, it takes little to show
that LDS claims are false, but it is nigh impossible to show they are true.
Hence, LDS"scholars" are wasting their time in some false hope they can present "faith-promoting"evidences. Meanwhile, science continues to tear away at the edifice of faith. Galileo's heliocentric science overturned religious ideas which religious authorities "knew by faith." It is time we admitted, from kings and prophets on down, there is no evidence any of our sacred books was authored by the Creator. The�scriptures� were the work of sand-strewn people who thought the earth was flat and for whom a wheelbarrow would have been a breathtaking technology. The greatest problem confronting civilization is not merely religious extremism; rather, it is the larger set of cultural and intellectual accommodations we have made to irrational faith itself. If Mormons look to science for validation of their �truth,� then who needs the prophets? Certainly not me.
Hence, LDS"scholars" are wasting their time in some false hope they can present "faith-promoting"evidences. Meanwhile, science continues to tear away at the edifice of faith. Galileo's heliocentric science overturned religious ideas which religious authorities "knew by faith." It is time we admitted, from kings and prophets on down, there is no evidence any of our sacred books was authored by the Creator. The�scriptures� were the work of sand-strewn people who thought the earth was flat and for whom a wheelbarrow would have been a breathtaking technology. The greatest problem confronting civilization is not merely religious extremism; rather, it is the larger set of cultural and intellectual accommodations we have made to irrational faith itself. If Mormons look to science for validation of their �truth,� then who needs the prophets? Certainly not me.
C. Mordain | 9:29 a.m. June 2, 2008
Nobody can take the Book of Mormon as serious historical fact. Everybody is
forced to be moderate in their claims about the BOM. The reason everyone is
forced to be "moderate" in matters of faith is that we have
assimilated some of the fruits of the last two thousand years of human thought
(democratic politics, scientific advancement, human rights, and an end to
cultural and geographic isolation).
The doors leading out of faith-based scriptural literalism and fanaticism do not open from the inside. The moderation we see among nonfundamentalists (those who are NOT FLDS) is not some sign that faith itself has evolved; it is, rather, the product of the many hammer blows of modernity that have exposed certain tenets of faith to doubt.
In the general population, religious moderation springs from the fact that even the least educated among us simply knows more about how the universe really works than anyone did two thousand years ago - and much of this knowledge is incompatible with scripture/faith.
The doors leading out of faith-based scriptural literalism and fanaticism do not open from the inside. The moderation we see among nonfundamentalists (those who are NOT FLDS) is not some sign that faith itself has evolved; it is, rather, the product of the many hammer blows of modernity that have exposed certain tenets of faith to doubt.
In the general population, religious moderation springs from the fact that even the least educated among us simply knows more about how the universe really works than anyone did two thousand years ago - and much of this knowledge is incompatible with scripture/faith.
re: Testimony Evidence | 12:21 p.m. June 2, 2008
It's much simpler than you indicate.
�Evidence� (used loosely) in this
case, amounts to a mutually supportive condition: Archeological evidence
combined with written record. Over half of the places mentioned in the Bible
have been identified, and there has yet to be a discovery that definitively
refutes the historicity of the Bible. Additionally, we have found numerous
independent ancient writings, some of which support biblical passages
word-for-word (ex. inscriptions of Numbers 6 on artifacts/DS scrolls). Some
inscriptions support the existence of biblical characters (Pilate and Caiaphas)
who were previously thought to be mythological.
Now, none of this means that all the biblical characters actually lived or all the biblical events actually occurred. No one knows if the walls of Jericho fell as the bible described. However it is agreed that there is plenty of archeological/textual support for the historicity of the bible.
The BOM fails miserably on both conditions. To date, no New World archeological evidence has been discovered, but not for lack of trying. In addition, for a people who obviously felt it important to keep records, there have been no other records found and no inscriptions that can be linked to these great Nephite/Lamanite civilizations.
Now, none of this means that all the biblical characters actually lived or all the biblical events actually occurred. No one knows if the walls of Jericho fell as the bible described. However it is agreed that there is plenty of archeological/textual support for the historicity of the bible.
The BOM fails miserably on both conditions. To date, no New World archeological evidence has been discovered, but not for lack of trying. In addition, for a people who obviously felt it important to keep records, there have been no other records found and no inscriptions that can be linked to these great Nephite/Lamanite civilizations.
True believer | 1:34 p.m. June 2, 2008
For those of us who understand science and the string theory we know that the
BOM people are extant in a paralle universe that relates to many of the prophet
JS revelations.
re: True believer | 2:32 p.m. June 2, 2008
LOL!
By far the most probable explanation I've heard yet!
By far the most probable explanation I've heard yet!
Rancor | 7:04 a.m. June 3, 2008
Still fascinating how so many are interested in trying to refute the faith of
others...
but seem to know less about what they're dismissing than they should. How many times have you read the BOM? Those that read it most, love it best. The voices inside it are unique, and seem as real as all of you. You can think that there were authors circa 1830 for this if you like. I find the ancient case much more compelling. Yes, it is an exercise of faith to believe it's historicity--but it is a real text, with incredible features unmatched by any other book. Hugh Nibley was right--you can't damage the BOM--the most you can do is to blind those unwilling to read and lend faith to it. (You ought to admit, that why you try is an interesting phenomenon.)
Its message is the pure doctrine of Christ, and packs a solid spiritual punch, straight from the Heavans above. The spiritual knowlege that this provides is of a different kind than the tangible plates that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris, and 8 others handled. But the testimonies of hundreds of thousands, even millions, say it is real.
but seem to know less about what they're dismissing than they should. How many times have you read the BOM? Those that read it most, love it best. The voices inside it are unique, and seem as real as all of you. You can think that there were authors circa 1830 for this if you like. I find the ancient case much more compelling. Yes, it is an exercise of faith to believe it's historicity--but it is a real text, with incredible features unmatched by any other book. Hugh Nibley was right--you can't damage the BOM--the most you can do is to blind those unwilling to read and lend faith to it. (You ought to admit, that why you try is an interesting phenomenon.)
Its message is the pure doctrine of Christ, and packs a solid spiritual punch, straight from the Heavans above. The spiritual knowlege that this provides is of a different kind than the tangible plates that Joseph Smith, Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris, and 8 others handled. But the testimonies of hundreds of thousands, even millions, say it is real.
I did stop by again and yes | 7:12 a.m. June 3, 2008
I got more smiles! Long ago people thought that they had to "appease"
God with sacrifices and such. This belief continued over into us being
"tested". I'm sure that the higher power that is out there stops
by and I'm sure gets a smile too. There are billions of people on this
planet...many of them believing different things. A loving "God"
wouldn't require them to do all the same thing to get to
"heaven". And further, a loving God would not send those who
didn't to "hell", the lowest kingdom or "outer
darkness". Scripture was written by men thousands of years ago. We are
the writers of many things for the future.
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