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ACLU, child abuse attorney file supporting papers in FLDS case
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good move for ACLU | 9:40 a.m. May 29, 2008
they always favor abusers over children
Thank the ACLU this time | 9:57 a.m. May 29, 2008
We can thank the ACLU for stepping up to the plate on this one great day for
freedom for parents
ACLU | 10:02 a.m. May 29, 2008
Just finished reading the ACLU brief.
I want to thank the ACLU for submitting this brief to the Supreme court of Texas a little late but better late then never.
I want to thank the ACLU for submitting this brief to the Supreme court of Texas a little late but better late then never.
Comments continue below
Rich | 10:12 a.m. May 29, 2008
Well, it's about time, ACLU! Will you also fight for the right to take
part in polygamy (or polygyny as FLDS are wont to say) and polyandrous
relationships. If a mother says her leader who assigns 14-year-old girls to be
married to cousins is perfect and that she intends to follow his every command
with respect to her own children, she certainly should have that freedom. Until
she actually marries off her kiddies to Warren Jeffs' minions, she is not
committing a crime, and even then she can duck blame, letting the men take the
heat. So let the lady go. Let her marry according to the dictates of her own
conscience; let her and her children have sex how, where, or with whom they may.
GB | 10:22 a.m. May 29, 2008
I can't believe I'm saying this (I've never said it before), but
here goes: I agree with the ACLU. If there is evidence of rape, abuse, etc. by
all means investigate the specific cases/allegations and let the the
perpetrators get what they deserve (prison, take their kids away, etc.) But
with no evidence against a specific parent, don't punish them based on
group association, stereotypes, or abuses done by other people (such as Warren
Jeffs).
I realize polygamy itself is a crime, but I'm not convinced that depriving a parent of their children is the proper punishment for violating an anti-polygamy law is.
I realize polygamy itself is a crime, but I'm not convinced that depriving a parent of their children is the proper punishment for violating an anti-polygamy law is.
Sleuth | 10:26 a.m. May 29, 2008
Typically, I am not an ACLU supporter. However, in this case I believe their
involvement is warranted, especially for the hundreds of innocents currently
being abused by the state of Texas capriciously. I am confident that no one
wants "little girls raped" by anyone of any age or gender,
nevertheless, with the careful scrutiny forth coming from the ACLU, perhaps only
the guilty parties will be prosecuted and the innocents can escape the bigotry
we have see practiced against them thus far.
Pravda | 10:49 a.m. May 29, 2008
If Rich would just take time to read the INTRODUCTION AND SUMMARY OF ARGUMENT
contained in the ACLU brief, he would see how unfounded his comments are.
Please give it a read before commenting. Thanks
GAL50 | 10:52 a.m. May 29, 2008
While it's understandable where the ACLU is coming from, one needs to
recognize that, unlike any other CPS case, child abuse is a part of this
culture. CPS's goal must be to protect the female children from statutory
rape/grooming and the male children from abandonment/molestation. Since this is
such a unique and large problem, perhaps CPS has not come up with all of the
answers. There is no precedent to indicate whether it is abuse to make a child
sleep under the photo of a unrelated convicted sex offender.
As far as CPS knew at the ten day hearing, girls as young as 13 were affected. Now with the new photos, it appears that girls as young as 10,11 and 12 may be married or the subject of marriage discussions.
Looking at this from a practical view, it seems CPS would have to remove all girls from 10 upward and all boys from 12 upward along with all girls who have been victims of statutory rape and all of their siblings and all of the children in their husband's home. This can't be done without DNA samples and CPS failed miserably in collecting samples from those not in custody.
As far as CPS knew at the ten day hearing, girls as young as 13 were affected. Now with the new photos, it appears that girls as young as 10,11 and 12 may be married or the subject of marriage discussions.
Looking at this from a practical view, it seems CPS would have to remove all girls from 10 upward and all boys from 12 upward along with all girls who have been victims of statutory rape and all of their siblings and all of the children in their husband's home. This can't be done without DNA samples and CPS failed miserably in collecting samples from those not in custody.
wow | 11:04 a.m. May 29, 2008
didn't think my opinion of FLDS or ACLU could go any lower than it was but
when they team up the loathing meter goes off the chart.
way to go | 11:05 a.m. May 29, 2008
finger in air- check
ascertain way wind is blowing- check
ride in to hog some attention- check
ascertain way wind is blowing- check
ride in to hog some attention- check
TemplarReborn | 11:20 a.m. May 29, 2008
People need to review their beliefs concerning religious freedom and social
order. The constitution is specific about making laws that restrict the
practicing of religion. Anti polygamy laws as written and intended are
unconstitutional. Most laws dealing with morality are. Imposing ones beliefs on
others is the real crime. If your faith is strong it shouldn't make any
difference what others believe or practice. Define instead what is truly ABUSE
and enforce it. For centuries 14 year olds got married legally in Europe and
this country. Review your history and live with it. If society truly believes
that it has the right to impose its interpretation of morality on others, we are
in deep trouble until we all agree on what is right. Even the bible seems to
have passages that people can't agree on.
Not a supporter of the ACLU | 11:31 a.m. May 29, 2008
WOW! I agree with the ACLU on this one and for once I feel like they are doing
what they set out to do. Good job ACLU!
Healthy? | 11:47 a.m. May 29, 2008
I don't think it's emotionally or physically healthy for girls under
16 to be sexually active--married or single. But if they are going to be, is
single, multiple partners, casual party sex, prostitution, sex for drugs,etc.
any better? How are we going to stop the frequently older men from participating
in all this? It all goes back to a person's belief system--what they think
is okay behavior for themselves. It's a mess!
fr1nk | 12:22 p.m. May 29, 2008
The ACLU stands up for civil liberties. The fact that you only NOW agree with
them proves that you only care about civil liberties when your ox is the one
being gored.
J-man | 12:23 p.m. May 29, 2008
Go to work ACLU! Hurry and get those kids returned to the YFZ because Warren
Jeffs is all out of 12 & 13 y/o girls to marry.
Science Fiction? | 1:02 p.m. May 29, 2008
I thought it was just science fiction to attempt to predict the future and
presume people are guilty of "Future Crimes".
Didn't Tom Cruise make a movie base on that concept and even with all the fictional technology they had to predict the future crimes it all fell apart?
So how does Texas CPS presume to be able to pre-determine (on the spot) that all 450 children were either being abused or would be "future-abused"?
Even more suspicious... they claim they could make this pre-determination based solely on where you live (the Ranch) or what church you go to (even scarier to me).
I'm not FLDS nor do I ignore the actual cimes in this case. I'm just not with all you, "GO TEXAS", "End justifies the means", "If they're FLDS their Bad", "Constitution is just a piece of paper", folks.
Didn't Tom Cruise make a movie base on that concept and even with all the fictional technology they had to predict the future crimes it all fell apart?
So how does Texas CPS presume to be able to pre-determine (on the spot) that all 450 children were either being abused or would be "future-abused"?
Even more suspicious... they claim they could make this pre-determination based solely on where you live (the Ranch) or what church you go to (even scarier to me).
I'm not FLDS nor do I ignore the actual cimes in this case. I'm just not with all you, "GO TEXAS", "End justifies the means", "If they're FLDS their Bad", "Constitution is just a piece of paper", folks.
Ekim | 1:24 p.m. May 29, 2008
The aclu also support old men-young boy relationships (man-boy love).
Who should be surprised of them getting on this bandwagon?
Who should be surprised of them getting on this bandwagon?
Repent from afar ACLU | 1:30 p.m. May 29, 2008
Will the ACLU also fight for the fathers who have lost their children because
Warren Jeffs banished them from the community and randomly reassigned their
children to another man?
Will the ACLU fight for the rights of 14-year-old girls not to be forced to marry their grandfathers?
Will the ACLU fight for the rights of 14-year-old boys not to be kicked out of their families by a convicted rapist?
Didn't think so.
Will the ACLU fight for the rights of 14-year-old girls not to be forced to marry their grandfathers?
Will the ACLU fight for the rights of 14-year-old boys not to be kicked out of their families by a convicted rapist?
Didn't think so.
John Lambert | 1:34 p.m. May 29, 2008
I never thought I would say it, but I agree with the ACLU in this case. I
only wish they had made a filing earlier. I applaud them for doing this
though.
You can not deney people their civil rights just because you disagree with their beliefs. Even the Utah Supreme Court has ruled such. Even when the state constitution makes something a crime you can not unilaterally deney those who do such all civil rights.
You can not deney people their civil rights just because you disagree with their beliefs. Even the Utah Supreme Court has ruled such. Even when the state constitution makes something a crime you can not unilaterally deney those who do such all civil rights.
Thank You | 2:05 p.m. May 29, 2008
ACLU!!! Finally.
Re: TemplarReborn | 2:22 p.m. May 29, 2008
"If society truly believes that it has the right to impose its
interpretation of morality on others, we are in deep trouble until we all agree
on what is right."
My religion teaches that greed is immoral and I believe that no one should be allowed to consume more than their fair share of the world's limited resources. Therefore, I don't agree with any law that prevent me from sharing your excess resources -- extra cars, cash, laptops, televisions, rooms in your house, etc. I see these laws as nothing more than the tyranny of the haves over the have nots and a government restriction of my religious beliefs.
My religion teaches that greed is immoral and I believe that no one should be allowed to consume more than their fair share of the world's limited resources. Therefore, I don't agree with any law that prevent me from sharing your excess resources -- extra cars, cash, laptops, televisions, rooms in your house, etc. I see these laws as nothing more than the tyranny of the haves over the have nots and a government restriction of my religious beliefs.
Thank you Elias-Perciful | 2:56 p.m. May 29, 2008
Finally, an attorney has stated what needs to be said which basically is that
the parents have joined a culture where one person, who is sitting in jail on
child abuse charges, calls the shots. The fact that there are 20 potential
statutory rape cases somehow has passed under the appellate court radar.
Polygamy marriage to a girl under age 16, is a first degree felony punishable by
up to life in prison. The men have fled the compound. Why in the world would a
judge return children to an environment such as this?
Returning children to parents who have not committed abuse and are willing to live outside the compound was the right choice for these children. And, that has now been halted along with the district court hearings.
Returning children to parents who have not committed abuse and are willing to live outside the compound was the right choice for these children. And, that has now been halted along with the district court hearings.
realitycheck | 3:07 p.m. May 29, 2008
so now the ACLU has officially crossed over to the dark side. They'll be
petitioning for the early release of Charles Manson next week.....
Wild Bill | 3:08 p.m. May 29, 2008
The ACLU has choosen the winner in this case.
The FLDS Church however flawed is still a Church.
There belief system does not differ much from some
other cultures. Many cultures around the world still
have forced marriage.
The Children in this case are worse off in the foster homes. The FLDS compound was a place of
safety from todays real criminals the CPS.
How can the supporters of this CPS wholesale
theft of children live with themselves.
The FLDS has every right to teach there children
what they want. I am appalled at the stupidity
of the general public.
Many supporters now can eat crow, as the Texas
supreme court has up heald the lower court mandate,
return the children now.
The FLDS Church however flawed is still a Church.
There belief system does not differ much from some
other cultures. Many cultures around the world still
have forced marriage.
The Children in this case are worse off in the foster homes. The FLDS compound was a place of
safety from todays real criminals the CPS.
How can the supporters of this CPS wholesale
theft of children live with themselves.
The FLDS has every right to teach there children
what they want. I am appalled at the stupidity
of the general public.
Many supporters now can eat crow, as the Texas
supreme court has up heald the lower court mandate,
return the children now.
realitycheck | 3:11 p.m. May 29, 2008
it's no small matter that the parents have different attorneys than the
children, and the children's attorneys don't want the kids to go
back.
yet the ACLU sides with the parents instead of the children. sad.
yet the ACLU sides with the parents instead of the children. sad.
realitycheck | 3:19 p.m. May 29, 2008
so - based on the court rulings, all adolecent girls need to be remanded - all
teenage boys need to be remanded - any other children in their household needs
to be remanded.
since they're all related, it makes sense that they took all the kids. I guess if they had checked very carefully they may have left one or two children but thats about it.
maybe if they hadn't been doing their nieces and cousins for so long they wouldn't have this problem....
since they're all related, it makes sense that they took all the kids. I guess if they had checked very carefully they may have left one or two children but thats about it.
maybe if they hadn't been doing their nieces and cousins for so long they wouldn't have this problem....
Thomas | 3:22 p.m. May 29, 2008
This child abuse attorney fails to understand the basic facts of the case. She
needs to learn the facts of the case before understanding the facts of the case.
Johnny come lately ACLU | 3:53 p.m. May 29, 2008
At least the Texas Supreme Court made their decision before the ACLU started
generating headlines about their support of child abusing parent, er,
parents' rights.
beanie | 4:35 p.m. May 29, 2008
It's about time for the ACLU to challenge CPS... no, wait, this is the ACLU
getting publicity. They haven't helped us, nor anyone we know in this
situation, why should they start now?
CommonSenseForUtah | 4:53 p.m. May 29, 2008
The attorney is just looking to get on TV tonight by saying something stupid and
inflammatory. She should be a shoo-in to get on Fox News.
John Lambert | 6:01 p.m. May 29, 2008
Actually, to be fair I do support the ACLU some of the time. However I
totally disagree with their anti-life and anti-marriage campaigns.
However I do feel that all peope deserve rights. I also feel that at times the government oversteps its bounds. This is definantly the case. For those of you who say that the ACLU is being pro-child abuse, I guess you also think the ACLU is pro-Nazi and pro-murder etc. since it defends the civil rights of such people. The ACLU believes in the due process of law, and I feel this is a generally good position. It is when this is used to try and destroy long-standing well thoughout laws that I have issues. I also have issues with some of their definitions of free speech.
However I do feel that all peope deserve rights. I also feel that at times the government oversteps its bounds. This is definantly the case. For those of you who say that the ACLU is being pro-child abuse, I guess you also think the ACLU is pro-Nazi and pro-murder etc. since it defends the civil rights of such people. The ACLU believes in the due process of law, and I feel this is a generally good position. It is when this is used to try and destroy long-standing well thoughout laws that I have issues. I also have issues with some of their definitions of free speech.
An Attorney | 11:44 p.m. May 29, 2008
Texas lost my support when I read in the Deseret News that a Texas legislator
specifically targeted the FLDS when they moved to Texas by proposing and passing
legilation raising the legal age for a girl to marry. If it has been okay for
Texas girls to marry at age 14 for as long as Texas has been a state then why is
it suddenly illegal for FLDS girls to marry at that age?
This new legislation was an expresion of religious bigotry rather than about protecting children. That said, I do not beleive anyone of any age should be forced to marry someone they do not want to marry.
It seems clear that today's courts which strike down laws prohibiting gay marraige as unconstitutional would also reverse old court decisions that upheld anti-polygamy laws.
This new legislation was an expresion of religious bigotry rather than about protecting children. That said, I do not beleive anyone of any age should be forced to marry someone they do not want to marry.
It seems clear that today's courts which strike down laws prohibiting gay marraige as unconstitutional would also reverse old court decisions that upheld anti-polygamy laws.
ed | 12:20 a.m. May 30, 2008
GAL50
Child abuse is part of this culture? Do you have evidence that Texas CPS apparently lacks? You ought to give CPS a call and let them know! As with CPS, so it is with you...you have heard that child abuse is a part of this culture and so you make the accusation, as if it were true, without evidence.
Adultery is part of the larger U.S. culture...as is, fornication, drug and alcohol abuse, spousal and child abuse, statutory rape (witness the number of teenage pregnancies across this culture...including among professing Christians). Why is it that a large segment of the U.S. population remains free while a small religious sect is targeted, as a whole, by the state, not based on any actual evidence, but solely on accusation, suspicion, and innuendo?
Child abuse is part of this culture? Do you have evidence that Texas CPS apparently lacks? You ought to give CPS a call and let them know! As with CPS, so it is with you...you have heard that child abuse is a part of this culture and so you make the accusation, as if it were true, without evidence.
Adultery is part of the larger U.S. culture...as is, fornication, drug and alcohol abuse, spousal and child abuse, statutory rape (witness the number of teenage pregnancies across this culture...including among professing Christians). Why is it that a large segment of the U.S. population remains free while a small religious sect is targeted, as a whole, by the state, not based on any actual evidence, but solely on accusation, suspicion, and innuendo?
ed | 12:20 a.m. May 30, 2008
GAL50...part two
As far a CPS believed (not knew) there was abuse going on, merely because that is what CPS gathered from what they heard of the FLDS beliefs and teachings. So they, like you, supposed that abuse was going on. The only problem was that CPS, like you, had no real evidence...only preconceived notions and prejudices, which they relied on to abuse the law and violate the civil and constitutional rights of these people.
Looking at this from a practical POV, it seems that CPS should not have acted until it had actual evidence. Also, the reason you cannot take DNA samples from those not in custody, without their consent, has to do with search and seizure laws under the constitution. Remember the constitution?
As far a CPS believed (not knew) there was abuse going on, merely because that is what CPS gathered from what they heard of the FLDS beliefs and teachings. So they, like you, supposed that abuse was going on. The only problem was that CPS, like you, had no real evidence...only preconceived notions and prejudices, which they relied on to abuse the law and violate the civil and constitutional rights of these people.
Looking at this from a practical POV, it seems that CPS should not have acted until it had actual evidence. Also, the reason you cannot take DNA samples from those not in custody, without their consent, has to do with search and seizure laws under the constitution. Remember the constitution?
Rene Howitt | 7:53 a.m. May 31, 2008
Once again the courts rule for the parents. Child Protective Services is suppose
to be about child protection not parental rights. What about a child's
right not to be abused? If the legal authorities had enforced the polygamy laws
would we even be in this mess? Guess who will be the fall guy when these
children go back and are again abused? CPS. Let's try to remember though it
is the courts that are sending the children back into the line of fire. Wait
until the entire cult moves during the night and CPS has no way of tracking them
because we can't get a national data bank up and running. If you want to
see how this happens read "Whose Best Interest".
www.whosebestinterest.com
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