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Ruling: Some FLDS children must go back; dissent says teenage girls remain at risk
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Best for The Youth | 5:44 p.m. May 29, 2008
For 2 for the Children--- I agree I have been a member for 55 years, and yes We
ARE ALL CONVERTS... As we live and learn daily to be "Christ-Like" if
possible and no I am not perfect, and I sometimes feel like you, even though I
have been one ALL MY LIFE in the LDS CHURCH, We need to care for all and not
give up on anyone reguardless of our backgrounds. No matter where, who or what
religion/national status is. I was raised in a family and all my siblings
including myself were abused by my parents and nothing was ever done, and I want
to make sure it doesn't happen to others, I was raised for the last 4 years
of school in a foster home and I consider them as my parents also. And if that
is what is needed, I hope the children get it, so they are loved and can be
raised in America, and have a chance to be GREAT CITIZENS....
Learn the law | 5:45 p.m. May 29, 2008
Texas
If you are 14 to 17 years of age, you will need to show your birth certificate or some license, certificate or document issued by this state or another state, the U.S. or a foreign government.(Drivers license, military ID, passport or baptismal).
Both parties must be 18 years or older,(14-17 requires parental consent).
Both parties must provide their social security number or state they have one.
Both parties must provide all information as required on the application and as requested by the clerk.
Both parties must take the oath printed on the application and sign the application in the presence of the clerk.
14 year olds can marry in Texas with parental consent. I don't think that would be a problem. The FLDS should follow the law and when they decide to get another teen wife divorce the old one by the law and marry the new one. The spiritual marriage can continue with the first wife.
If you are 14 to 17 years of age, you will need to show your birth certificate or some license, certificate or document issued by this state or another state, the U.S. or a foreign government.(Drivers license, military ID, passport or baptismal).
Both parties must be 18 years or older,(14-17 requires parental consent).
Both parties must provide their social security number or state they have one.
Both parties must provide all information as required on the application and as requested by the clerk.
Both parties must take the oath printed on the application and sign the application in the presence of the clerk.
14 year olds can marry in Texas with parental consent. I don't think that would be a problem. The FLDS should follow the law and when they decide to get another teen wife divorce the old one by the law and marry the new one. The spiritual marriage can continue with the first wife.
? | 5:48 p.m. May 29, 2008
"What have they found 5 girls who were pregnant as teens? As a percentage
that is much much lower than the percentage of African American and Latino girls
who become pregnant as teens. I wonder if Texas is planning to take all of there
children."
Well let's see, when it's a 14 year-old impregnanted by a 40 year-old, or worse yet a cousin...do you see the problem?
Well let's see, when it's a 14 year-old impregnanted by a 40 year-old, or worse yet a cousin...do you see the problem?
Comments continue below
California | 5:48 p.m. May 29, 2008
Wow what a religion haven for a pedophile, have sex with kids and say god told
me to all in the name of Religion. Where is the Koolaid line? So if it is ok for
the FLDS men to have sex with both little boys and girls then the Catholic
priest should not have been prosecuted for having sex with young boys. Does this
not seem wrong to you? And these so called good parents kick out the young boys
because the elders will not have the pick of the little girls if there are to
many boys. They leave these boys on the side of the road, if the boy makes it
back to the gates and see's his mom, she will have nothing to do with him,
so ordered the profit, oh by the way the profit is a man wanting little girls.
Lovely Please god look over these children.
Air head | 5:52 p.m. May 29, 2008
re: anonymous 5: 21 PM
wear the shoe if it fits. It's a true fact.
Texas, Utah and Arizona and everywhere else these men may be, the authorties need find them and imprison all of the FLDS men, and get these deviates off the streets. It's time for a good 3 ring circus invasion.
wear the shoe if it fits. It's a true fact.
Texas, Utah and Arizona and everywhere else these men may be, the authorties need find them and imprison all of the FLDS men, and get these deviates off the streets. It's time for a good 3 ring circus invasion.
DEAR TEXAN RESIDENTS: | 5:56 p.m. May 29, 2008
Please give the FLDS everything they want so that they will stay out of Arizona.
I condone religious freedom (I myself have been persecuted), but not when the
fundamental beliefs of the group involve illegal activities (plural
marriages/sexual conduct with minors).Please don't hide illegal acts behind
a religious guise.
Cassie1 | 6:01 p.m. May 29, 2008
The society in Colorado City has evolved to include many sick and illegal
practices. Carolyn Jessop is not the only one talking about child beatings to
keep mothers in line. Male child sexual abuse has long been talked about among
the "lost boys" as is the risk of them turning to male prostitution in
Las Vegas. Children (all males) kicked to the streets constitutes child
abandonment, endangerment and neglect. The mothers who allow these things to
happen are just as guilty as the men who demand the actions take place. Boys
kicked out and girls who escape are forbidden any contact with their families or
the families are made to suffer. Warren Jeff's brother was arrested with a
lost boy who'd become a male prostitute and was being paid $5,000 a month
to be his "companion." Children's rights to be free of physical
and sexual abuse, rape, abandonment, and neglect always trumps any
"constitutional rights" the sick parent have. Thanks goodness the
people in Texas at least tried to help the kids. We here in Utah just collect
the ragged few who are expelled or escape on their own.
Ummm, yeaahhhh?? | 6:05 p.m. May 29, 2008
"To all those that think marrying a 16 year old is wrong...clean your own
houses first..there are hundreds of girls younger having sex in your schools..i
suggest you stop that first and quite picking on others you see as easy
targets."
But they are not given to their older cousins and distant relatives for the marriage bed. Please take a closer look at the logic here.
But they are not given to their older cousins and distant relatives for the marriage bed. Please take a closer look at the logic here.
Sokol | 6:07 p.m. May 29, 2008
Most of the dissenters on this board all had grandmothers or great grandmothers
who married
at maybe age 14, 15, 16. My 95 year old grandmother
married my grandfather when she was 15. So,
according to some of you on this site, my
grandfather, bless his heart, would be considered
a pervert or sexual deviate. He was 22..
Oh, they were married for 75 years.
at maybe age 14, 15, 16. My 95 year old grandmother
married my grandfather when she was 15. So,
according to some of you on this site, my
grandfather, bless his heart, would be considered
a pervert or sexual deviate. He was 22..
Oh, they were married for 75 years.
John Lambert | 6:11 p.m. May 29, 2008
I have notice people thretening to leave the Church because it has not done
anything to help the FLDS and then other people thretening to leave the Church
if it does anything to help the FLDS.
What exactly do you feel the church should have done?
What exactly do you feel the church should have done?
John Lambert | 6:14 p.m. May 29, 2008
I will speak for me and other anti-depressant users. Using Prozac is not a
crime. We have a right to seek medication for our problems. I am tired of the
hearless attacks on me and my fellow sufferes from depression. What next, will
people start denouncing everyone who takes insulin? We need prozac and other
anti-depresants to function fully just as much as insulin users need insulin and
we are tired of being treated like flawed people because we have chemical
imbalances.
Using prozac is not criminal.
Using prozac is not criminal.
Anonymous | 6:15 p.m. May 29, 2008
To those who oppose "for the children" your true colors are showing,
for the children is concerned about the children, you are concerned about being
right and how folks see the lds, what light they are seen in...for the children
realized they did post and then thanked them I see....how many of you can say
you are christian as LDS not helping the flds???
worried about the Lds church's image rather than rejoicing the children will be coming home...I wonder how many of you are CPS???? LOL I noticed "for the children" didn't even come on board and defend the position, quit your ranting and raving cps that the scot struck the appelate court down, reallllll bad. Your responses to "For the children claiming the position he has against Utah and Idaho mormons was not CHRIST LIKE EITHER, HYPOCRITES, THAT IS WHY I AM NOT LDS, FLDS, NOTHING, JUST A HUMAN BEING. I believe in defending the truth and the under dog....you CPS haters sure are sore losers to pounce on "for the children' Utah women are almost 9O% on prozac from what I read, on DN and other media...let us rejoice for the children.
worried about the Lds church's image rather than rejoicing the children will be coming home...I wonder how many of you are CPS???? LOL I noticed "for the children" didn't even come on board and defend the position, quit your ranting and raving cps that the scot struck the appelate court down, reallllll bad. Your responses to "For the children claiming the position he has against Utah and Idaho mormons was not CHRIST LIKE EITHER, HYPOCRITES, THAT IS WHY I AM NOT LDS, FLDS, NOTHING, JUST A HUMAN BEING. I believe in defending the truth and the under dog....you CPS haters sure are sore losers to pounce on "for the children' Utah women are almost 9O% on prozac from what I read, on DN and other media...let us rejoice for the children.
Your argument doesn't Work | 6:16 p.m. May 29, 2008
" So,according to some of you on this site, my
grandfather, bless his heart, would be considered
a pervert or sexual deviate. He was 22..
Oh, they were married for 75 years."
Laws and times were different. Lifespans were significantly shorter. Children matured mentally at a significantly yonger age.
grandfather, bless his heart, would be considered
a pervert or sexual deviate. He was 22..
Oh, they were married for 75 years."
Laws and times were different. Lifespans were significantly shorter. Children matured mentally at a significantly yonger age.
John Lambert | 6:20 p.m. May 29, 2008
I think people who pass judgement on every person from Utah and Idaho are the
ones who are being judgemental and self-righteous.
I have to admit that at times I get frustrated with people from Utah and Idaho. This is mainly because I get tired of them bemoaning leaving the states, and insulting Michigan all the time. However I have to say that my favorite roommate at BYU was from Utah, as was my least favorite roommate. My most committed LDS co-worker at the Cannon Center was from Taylorsville, Utah while the person who had the least desire to attend stake conference was from California. I have learned that there are people of all kinds everywhere and we should be less judgemental.
I have to admit that at times I get frustrated with people from Utah and Idaho. This is mainly because I get tired of them bemoaning leaving the states, and insulting Michigan all the time. However I have to say that my favorite roommate at BYU was from Utah, as was my least favorite roommate. My most committed LDS co-worker at the Cannon Center was from Taylorsville, Utah while the person who had the least desire to attend stake conference was from California. I have learned that there are people of all kinds everywhere and we should be less judgemental.
I'm from CA, | 6:23 p.m. May 29, 2008
so maybe that's why I have never heard of the Idaho/Utah alliance? And how
did Michigan enter the equation?
John Lambert | 6:25 p.m. May 29, 2008
I have many Jehovah's Witnesses as relatives. I find it quite
objectionable for someone to claim that they abuse their children.
In what way to Jehovah's Witnesses committ endemic child abuse? I am sure their are child abusers among them, as there are among all faiths and those without faiths. If you doubt it, just read Elder Scott's talk and ask why he gave it in general conference.
However, to say Jehovah's Witnesses are guilty of endemic child abuse without evidence is groundless lible.
In what way to Jehovah's Witnesses committ endemic child abuse? I am sure their are child abusers among them, as there are among all faiths and those without faiths. If you doubt it, just read Elder Scott's talk and ask why he gave it in general conference.
However, to say Jehovah's Witnesses are guilty of endemic child abuse without evidence is groundless lible.
Gordon S | 6:24 p.m. May 29, 2008
Re; Cassie 1
I liked your post. The children should not be returned until the whole matter is investigated. How can they return them to the ranch when they do not know who the parents are. It is obvious that the court that wants to return the children has no idea about the danger the adults on the ranch are imposing on these children. This case has nothing to do with religion.
I liked your post. The children should not be returned until the whole matter is investigated. How can they return them to the ranch when they do not know who the parents are. It is obvious that the court that wants to return the children has no idea about the danger the adults on the ranch are imposing on these children. This case has nothing to do with religion.
Truth will trevail | 6:24 p.m. May 29, 2008
Halleluya. Praise be to the Lord. The children are coming back to their loving
homes. Unfortunately they have been abused by the CPS.
These statements about abused young girls (not the ones in Hollywood) need to be clarified. I don't think the suggested abuses are widespread.
Think about abuses in other parts of society also then you will realise your prejudices.
My prayers have been answered by the living God.
Why do I have to keep saying "not FLDS".
These statements about abused young girls (not the ones in Hollywood) need to be clarified. I don't think the suggested abuses are widespread.
Think about abuses in other parts of society also then you will realise your prejudices.
My prayers have been answered by the living God.
Why do I have to keep saying "not FLDS".
Plato | 6:28 p.m. May 29, 2008
Well . . . Now we know that there are six additional Judges in the state of
Texas who have read the Constitution--I wonder what happened to Judge Walther?
She certainly needs to retire from the bench after this keystone cop fiasco.
John Lambert | 6:41 p.m. May 29, 2008
Those who try to defend the FLDS by accusing the posters on this board of
being a bunch of adulterers probably should rethink their tactics. I would not
be surprised if no one on this board is guilty of adultery.
There are problems in this world, but just because we can not solve them all at once does not mean we should tolerate evils because we can not stop them all.
I am for the state prosecuting all overaged men that have sex with underage girls. Personally I would support a change in the laws to define sex between men over the age of 50 with girls under age 25 outside of marriage as statutory rape, especially when the man is also the girls boss. If you do not know what caused me to be outraged at such things, I am glad that you have maintained your innocence in our filthy culture.
There are problems in this world, but just because we can not solve them all at once does not mean we should tolerate evils because we can not stop them all.
I am for the state prosecuting all overaged men that have sex with underage girls. Personally I would support a change in the laws to define sex between men over the age of 50 with girls under age 25 outside of marriage as statutory rape, especially when the man is also the girls boss. If you do not know what caused me to be outraged at such things, I am glad that you have maintained your innocence in our filthy culture.
ST. George | 6:41 p.m. May 29, 2008
There is a Constitution, and a court that knows it!
John Lambert | 6:47 p.m. May 29, 2008
If you think the FLDS are a prostitution ring than you obiosly do not know
anything about prostitution rings. The comparision has no standing at all.
I am not trying to say that what happens to women in the FLDS Church is all good, but it is definantly less destructive and demeaning than what happens in prostitution.
I am not trying to say that what happens to women in the FLDS Church is all good, but it is definantly less destructive and demeaning than what happens in prostitution.
Not from Utah | 6:49 p.m. May 29, 2008
Its interesting to read the comment sections in some of the Texas newspapers
which are also on the internet. I expected the majority of comments from Texas
to be supporting the CPS but found that the pro-constitution people are out in
force criticizing the CPS in a much stronger way than comments found here. Its
not so much that they have a pro-FLDS attitude, but rather that they stress the
danger from the CPS violating the US constitution.
The anti-FLDS comments are similar though, mostly hate speech, but a few of them seem to have actual concern for the children, even if it may be misguided.
I'm pleased that the Supreme Court enforced the existing laws in Texas and rightfully supported the lower court ruling that the children were taken improperly. That decision helps protect all americans from abuses of government agencies.
The anti-FLDS comments are similar though, mostly hate speech, but a few of them seem to have actual concern for the children, even if it may be misguided.
I'm pleased that the Supreme Court enforced the existing laws in Texas and rightfully supported the lower court ruling that the children were taken improperly. That decision helps protect all americans from abuses of government agencies.
From Texas | 6:49 p.m. May 29, 2008
This is good. The state should not have the right to punish the many for the
sins of the few. In the eyes of the law these men are adulterers because they
have never married more than one wife legally. If the Supreme had not smacked
this CPS raid down Texas trailer parks and tenements would have been subject to
CPS dragnets.
Gordon S | 6:51 p.m. May 29, 2008
Re: John Lambert
There is nothing wrong with taking Prozac if you need it. However, some people are raised in an enviornment that is out of touch with reality and need to take medication to cope. Society is not filthy, however your sense of reality may see it as such.
There is nothing wrong with taking Prozac if you need it. However, some people are raised in an enviornment that is out of touch with reality and need to take medication to cope. Society is not filthy, however your sense of reality may see it as such.
Sandy | 6:52 p.m. May 29, 2008
RE: Solko You are so wrong!!! I have looked at my family tree and genealogy, and
none of ancestors were married younger than 19teen. So you are day-dreaming. You
need to get your head out of the gutter.
John Lambert | 6:56 p.m. May 29, 2008
Again, to be on prozac is not a crime. I am tired of people attacking
legitimate medical treatments and treating those of us who get them like we are
sub-humans or morally deficent. I think I spelled the last word wrong, but that
is how it sounds. Well, anyway, taking prozac is in no way, shape, means or
form grounds for removing a child. I think it is outrageous that people would
suggest otherwise.
John Lambert | 7:07 p.m. May 29, 2008
I do not know why I bother. However, I am tired of people using terms that do
not apply to this case. The fact of the matter is that no one is accused of
pedophilia. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to pre-pubescent girls. The FLDS
in no case marry off pre-pubescent girls (or boys, but pre-bubescent in any
case). Physically these girls have entered puberty and thus attraction to them
is not pedophilia. Having different views of appropriate ages for marriage has
changed over time. When my grandmother got married females in California could
marry at age 16 without parental permission. She was 17, but that is not the
point. My grandfather was 22 and such a relationship without marriage would be
considered statutory rape in Texas. Of course they got married, but my
grandmother parents were opposed to the whole thing.
I am not saying I agree with the FLDS, I am just saying that what they are doing is not pedophilia.
I am not saying I agree with the FLDS, I am just saying that what they are doing is not pedophilia.
Anonymous | 7:07 p.m. May 29, 2008
I think this whole thing smells of religious persecution. HOWEVER, there are
also still a number of serious issues that need investigation and
intervention.
I hope if there are any kids, boys or girls of any age who truly do NOT want to go back or who have serious issues with their parents that CPS and the court will take that into account.
I may be a total cynic, but I would not be planning parties yet. I half expect CPS to go to court tomorrow and claim the ruling applies ONLY to the mothers who filed it so instead CPS still needs to keep the other children or keep doing status hearings one family at a time.
I am also curious whether the paternity test of other records are going to show a lot of teenagers trucked in from out of state. I predict the circus ain;t even begun!
I hope if there are any kids, boys or girls of any age who truly do NOT want to go back or who have serious issues with their parents that CPS and the court will take that into account.
I may be a total cynic, but I would not be planning parties yet. I half expect CPS to go to court tomorrow and claim the ruling applies ONLY to the mothers who filed it so instead CPS still needs to keep the other children or keep doing status hearings one family at a time.
I am also curious whether the paternity test of other records are going to show a lot of teenagers trucked in from out of state. I predict the circus ain;t even begun!
CMK | 7:19 p.m. May 29, 2008
For those of you who cant figure out how the CPS can return the children to the
ranch because they don't know who their parents are...Let's think a
little.
Perhaps if they took them back where the kidnapped them from, the people at the ranch (who live there) will be able to sort them all out..Ya Think!@?
Perhaps if they took them back where the kidnapped them from, the people at the ranch (who live there) will be able to sort them all out..Ya Think!@?
Sandy & Family | 7:26 p.m. May 29, 2008
You people are talking out of your heads. Some of you need to look at your own
communities and societies then tell me which one is worse. I am thanking God
that the ruling came down as it did. Before you condemn those fathers of abuse
and say they are guilty why don't you see the proof that has not been given
by the state. Just because your state authorities say something and the media
reports it does not make it true. The state went to ex-members who hate the
FLDS lifestyle because they would rather live in our backwards society where
girls uncover and underage sex is rampant as a source of information. I would
really hope no one went to one of my enemies for an opinion on me. Common sense
tells you that was stupid to begin with. You people were given common sense and
logic,use it and think about what you were willing to believe from liars.
Cheers | 7:29 p.m. May 29, 2008
I think everyone one of those children should be returned. I also think every
individual in this country should be treated equally under the law. If anyone
has broken the law then they should be punished according to the crime. However,
we live in a corrupt society where rich and famous can pay their way out of
trouble while the poor and powerless are slung up the flag pole. We should be
indignant about the abuse of power at hand in our United States of America.
Interloper | 7:32 p.m. May 29, 2008
This is a sad outcome because some children will be delivered right back into
the hands of their abusers. The FLDS will whisk others off to even more
isolated 'houses of hiding,' and guard the girls closely while waiting
for them to turn at least 11 and become 'ready to marry.' Abandonment
of adolescent boys make occur at a faster pace now that the FLDS has been forced
to spend money on travel and housing of members involved in the case.
I am not altogether surprised that the Supreme Court of Texas chose political expediency over justice. Texas courts have a high level of reversal in federal courts because the judges are more likely to be electable than good jurists.
I am not altogether surprised that the Supreme Court of Texas chose political expediency over justice. Texas courts have a high level of reversal in federal courts because the judges are more likely to be electable than good jurists.
Richard | 7:49 p.m. May 29, 2008
This is not a victory for FDLS. It is a victory for Legal Aid-- Texas Rural
Legal Aid ,in large part, and Legal Aid of NorthWest Texas, who, despite the
politican feeding frenzie, kept clear focus on what Texas law required. And
while I am disappointed that Justices O'Neil and Johnson chose to ignore
that the evidence presented by CPS was largely inadmissable garbage i.e it
would never been admitted before a jury in a normal (non religious and political
charged atmosphere), the Texas Supreme Court ultimately made a decision based on
the law and not CPS fantasy. I am once again proud to be a Texan. Thank you
Supremes and third circuit.
Jeny | 8:16 p.m. May 29, 2008
My parents were born in 1938 and in 1943. They were married in 1959, and remain
married to this day. October 1959 makes 50 years of happy marriage.
An older sibling of mine was born in 1960. I was born in 1962. Next baby 1964. Next baby 1973.
Do the math. Yes, that's right. 16 and 21 when they got married. Mom was 17 19 21 and 30 when her children were born.
We are Irish/Roman Catholics. Are we members of a "cult"? Is my Dad a "pervert"? Was my mother "brainwashed"?
Should CPS have come for *us* and taken us away from our loving parents and our siblings and scattered us to the 4 winds?
Pahleeze! Give it up...
CPS was DEAD WRONG on this and I am grateful that the Appeals court and Texas Supreme Court saw fit to rule according to THE LAW, not their emotions or anti-religious bias(ses).
Well done, Texas Supremes! Well done.
An older sibling of mine was born in 1960. I was born in 1962. Next baby 1964. Next baby 1973.
Do the math. Yes, that's right. 16 and 21 when they got married. Mom was 17 19 21 and 30 when her children were born.
We are Irish/Roman Catholics. Are we members of a "cult"? Is my Dad a "pervert"? Was my mother "brainwashed"?
Should CPS have come for *us* and taken us away from our loving parents and our siblings and scattered us to the 4 winds?
Pahleeze! Give it up...
CPS was DEAD WRONG on this and I am grateful that the Appeals court and Texas Supreme Court saw fit to rule according to THE LAW, not their emotions or anti-religious bias(ses).
Well done, Texas Supremes! Well done.
Ronald A. Young | 8:31 p.m. May 29, 2008
A Sad Day for America, a sad day for Texas, and a sad day for the VICTIMS, of
the Rape and Abuse. The Criminal Cases must move forward even faster.
Atlman | 8:33 p.m. May 29, 2008
to: John Lambert
I usually disagree with everything you say. I certainly part paths with you on the seemingly support of the FLDS. But I do want to say this and am very sincere. I think you are absolutely right in defending the use of Prozac. It is , as you say, a valid medication for a specific health disorder. If statistics, and they can be interpreted many ways, do show Utah use higher than nationwide, SO WHAT? Perhaps the rigors of a strict religous culture, perhaps..perhaps..forget the perhaps. No one should be ostracized for seeking and getting valid medical help. ( John, I will continue to oppose your views, but as Voltaire said " I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it. )
I usually disagree with everything you say. I certainly part paths with you on the seemingly support of the FLDS. But I do want to say this and am very sincere. I think you are absolutely right in defending the use of Prozac. It is , as you say, a valid medication for a specific health disorder. If statistics, and they can be interpreted many ways, do show Utah use higher than nationwide, SO WHAT? Perhaps the rigors of a strict religous culture, perhaps..perhaps..forget the perhaps. No one should be ostracized for seeking and getting valid medical help. ( John, I will continue to oppose your views, but as Voltaire said " I may not agree with what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it. )
Stevo | 8:43 p.m. May 29, 2008
These people �marry� and rape girls.
Their religion supports this. It is well documented not just in this case but
in, of all things, two New York Times bestsellers, convictions of the prophet,
and years of investigation. It�s real simple. You support
the FLDS and you support child exploitation, the subjegation of women, threats,
fraud, etc.
�The court did the right thing� you say. If the courts cannot protect children, what are they for? If a government agency cannot act heroically without being blasted by knee jerk reaction conspiracy theorists, then don�t complain about FEMA type failures.
�The court did the right thing� you say. If the courts cannot protect children, what are they for? If a government agency cannot act heroically without being blasted by knee jerk reaction conspiracy theorists, then don�t complain about FEMA type failures.
Anonymous | 8:51 p.m. May 29, 2008
I have never been more sickened and disturbed by a story in our own country in
my life. The complete degradation of women and disrespect of the sanctity of
"family" as we know it and respect it in our beautiful country- these
are at the core of the recent Texas court rulings. It belies logic to assert
that these young, trusting girls are not at risk when their systemic rape and
submission is at the heart of the belief system at that ranch and others like
it. Jeffs pictures hang in every home in a place of honor, and look at his
pedophilic behavior. He truly is a modern day Hitler and this time we should
answer correctly - with a resounding NO, THESE MENTAL, PHYSICAL AND EMOTIONAL
ABUSES WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. The Texas courts failed us miserably.
bilbo...an LDS member | 9:20 p.m. May 29, 2008
I am so happy the Texas Supreme Court recognized and upheld the U.S.
Constitution today.
I am grateful the children are being released to their mothers and siblings.
I hope all innocent fathers are joined, also.
NOW, we need to see the Adult men who had spiritual...and physical... marriage with underage girls (whether conception occurred or not) are arrested, convicted by evidence (not by emotion...this is how Texas got here, after all) and sent to the Big House in the brush....for a long time.
Do it RIGHT...do it CONSTITUTIONALLY!
I am grateful the children are being released to their mothers and siblings.
I hope all innocent fathers are joined, also.
NOW, we need to see the Adult men who had spiritual...and physical... marriage with underage girls (whether conception occurred or not) are arrested, convicted by evidence (not by emotion...this is how Texas got here, after all) and sent to the Big House in the brush....for a long time.
Do it RIGHT...do it CONSTITUTIONALLY!
Well.... | 9:22 p.m. May 29, 2008
Maybe our ancestors married younger than we do, but that is not what this issue
is about. Maybe we have sixteen year olds having sex in general society, but
that is not what this is about either. It is about older men telling young
girls that they must submit to them to get to heaven! This is wrong on so many
levels!
Red | 9:56 p.m. May 29, 2008
"A child psychologist testified that ... children ages ... 15 or 16 are
'not sufficiently mature to enter a healthy consensual sexual relationship
or "marriage."'"
Until a couple of years ago, the Great State of Texas disagreed with this professional's opinion. The minimum marriageable age (with parent/court consent) was fourteen.
Until a couple of years ago, the Great State of Texas disagreed with this professional's opinion. The minimum marriageable age (with parent/court consent) was fourteen.
Red | 10:07 p.m. May 29, 2008
This week, the Constitution hung by a thread. That thread was two Texas Supreme
Court Justices. Had they been willing -- like three of their colleagues -- to
disregard Texas law, the decision would have been 5-4 that there was no
effective limit to State power.
At any time, a 26-year-old woman could be abducted by masked men armed with automatic weapons and held indefinitely in a juvenile detention facility.
Children could be scattered to the winds on no more "evidence" than their parents' unpopular opinions or "weird" clothing.
We'd be very close to a domestic Guantanamo or Gulag.
This is too close a call. No rational, non-mainstream American should move to, or remain in, Texas.
At any time, a 26-year-old woman could be abducted by masked men armed with automatic weapons and held indefinitely in a juvenile detention facility.
Children could be scattered to the winds on no more "evidence" than their parents' unpopular opinions or "weird" clothing.
We'd be very close to a domestic Guantanamo or Gulag.
This is too close a call. No rational, non-mainstream American should move to, or remain in, Texas.
Ing | 10:17 p.m. May 29, 2008
Anonymous 8:51, the Texas CPS is responsible for the failure. I have never been
more sickened and disturbed by a government agency's abuse of power and
disregard for the law. They failed to follow the law, and the courts are
recognizing that.
Now whatever underage marriage is going on there needs to be stopped, and if they have a system that perpetuates it, that needs to be addressed too. But as Bilbo 9:20 says, it has to be done ethically, using actual evidence, not just hysteria and emotion.
Now whatever underage marriage is going on there needs to be stopped, and if they have a system that perpetuates it, that needs to be addressed too. But as Bilbo 9:20 says, it has to be done ethically, using actual evidence, not just hysteria and emotion.
A sad day in the USA | 10:45 p.m. May 29, 2008
What more can be said.
I beleive I have heard the mouthpiece (silly willy) for the FLDS say that they did not beleive in marrying the young girls off to older men.
If that is the case then why does everybody say that this is about religious persecution. If their religion does not beleive in forced marriage of young girls to older men, then why does so many of you say that this is about religous persecution?
The FLDS mouthpiece said it was not a religous practice of theirs, so it is not a religious issue.
It is just a bunch of perverted old men raping young girls and chasing off the young boys.
Now we need to say the prayers for the children who are sent back to this abuse.
And be prepared to eat crow when the DNA tests are in. They will prove that the girls were minors when raped.
I beleive I have heard the mouthpiece (silly willy) for the FLDS say that they did not beleive in marrying the young girls off to older men.
If that is the case then why does everybody say that this is about religious persecution. If their religion does not beleive in forced marriage of young girls to older men, then why does so many of you say that this is about religous persecution?
The FLDS mouthpiece said it was not a religous practice of theirs, so it is not a religious issue.
It is just a bunch of perverted old men raping young girls and chasing off the young boys.
Now we need to say the prayers for the children who are sent back to this abuse.
And be prepared to eat crow when the DNA tests are in. They will prove that the girls were minors when raped.
Matthew | 11:03 p.m. May 29, 2008
Hey Sad Day...,
The reason they are persecuting them is polygamy, the Book of Mormon, old fashioned clothing etc., not underage girls marrying old men.
So it is a religous issue and not a child protection issue. That's the whole point all the rational posters have been making. Nobody will have to eat crow. They could have collected DNA without removing all 450+ children. That is the whole point here, that most have been making all along. Find criminal conduct with evidence and then act appropriately. Don't just try and commit genocide because you are offended by their religion.
The reason they are persecuting them is polygamy, the Book of Mormon, old fashioned clothing etc., not underage girls marrying old men.
So it is a religous issue and not a child protection issue. That's the whole point all the rational posters have been making. Nobody will have to eat crow. They could have collected DNA without removing all 450+ children. That is the whole point here, that most have been making all along. Find criminal conduct with evidence and then act appropriately. Don't just try and commit genocide because you are offended by their religion.
wrz | 11:09 p.m. May 29, 2008
"I don't think these kids should be brainwashed and forced to marry
before they are of age."
Everyone is brainwashed in one way or another. These people place high importance on having children. So that's what they teach. Call that brainwashing if you wish. Perhaps they get it from the Old Testament... Psalms 127:3&5: "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord, and the fruit of the womb is his reward... Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them."
Having said that, these people should obey the law of the land. If the law says no marriage (civil) before 16 that's what they should follow. And that's what they should teach.
But if their religion teaches "spiritual marriage" then the hands of the state are tied. The state cannot prohibit that religious practice because there is no law against it.
There are laws about sexual intercourse and age. If these people are having sex with the underaged they should be prosecuted. How do they get around this? Wait until age 16... or use artificial insemination (gasp).
Texas has a big problem on their hands. They shoulda asked Utah and Arizona how to handle it.
Everyone is brainwashed in one way or another. These people place high importance on having children. So that's what they teach. Call that brainwashing if you wish. Perhaps they get it from the Old Testament... Psalms 127:3&5: "Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord, and the fruit of the womb is his reward... Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them."
Having said that, these people should obey the law of the land. If the law says no marriage (civil) before 16 that's what they should follow. And that's what they should teach.
But if their religion teaches "spiritual marriage" then the hands of the state are tied. The state cannot prohibit that religious practice because there is no law against it.
There are laws about sexual intercourse and age. If these people are having sex with the underaged they should be prosecuted. How do they get around this? Wait until age 16... or use artificial insemination (gasp).
Texas has a big problem on their hands. They shoulda asked Utah and Arizona how to handle it.
Vinny | 11:12 p.m. May 29, 2008
I hope somehow they can find away to protect the FLDS children from marring the
old FLDS men. Slavery like this is abominable.
wrz | 11:34 p.m. May 29, 2008
"The FLDS should follow the law and when they decide to get another teen
wife divorce the old one by the law and marry the new one. The spiritual
marriage can continue with the first wife."
There's no reason why all FLDS marriages can't be spiritual only. (Free advice)
Age and sexual intercourse is another story. And although under age sex is illegal, sex without marriage (civil) is not illegal.
There's no reason why all FLDS marriages can't be spiritual only. (Free advice)
Age and sexual intercourse is another story. And although under age sex is illegal, sex without marriage (civil) is not illegal.
ed | 11:40 p.m. May 29, 2008
The Texas Supreme Court ruled: that Judge Walther abused her judicial
discretion; that there was insufficient evidence of abuse to justify CPS'
actions; that CPS immediately took the most severe and unreasonable actions
against these families without exhausting less restrictive and more reasonable
options.
Abuse of judicial discretion? Acting without sufficient evidence and in the most severe way possible from the start? It is obvious, at least to me, that the reason for this outrageous state action outside of evidence and law was based on the long-standing prejudices and animosity that state authorities held against a relgious sect, whose teachings, not actions, the state wished to crush.
In other words, this whole fiasco was a state persecution of a religious organization, based in suspicion and dislike of the sect rather than in law and justice. The hoax phone call was the excuse the state used to act, but even that one call, naming one man as an abuser, was no justification for the state to act against and entire community and to, in effect, kidnap adults and children. The state attempted to punish and destroy this sect, not for what it was actually doing, but merely for what it believes.
Abuse of judicial discretion? Acting without sufficient evidence and in the most severe way possible from the start? It is obvious, at least to me, that the reason for this outrageous state action outside of evidence and law was based on the long-standing prejudices and animosity that state authorities held against a relgious sect, whose teachings, not actions, the state wished to crush.
In other words, this whole fiasco was a state persecution of a religious organization, based in suspicion and dislike of the sect rather than in law and justice. The hoax phone call was the excuse the state used to act, but even that one call, naming one man as an abuser, was no justification for the state to act against and entire community and to, in effect, kidnap adults and children. The state attempted to punish and destroy this sect, not for what it was actually doing, but merely for what it believes.
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