to: "re:grandpa phil". I went to college at West Point which STRESSES ethics
and morality and the rule of LAW, not conjecture and innuendo. If you take the
time to actually READ the Supreme Court Brief and the Answers to the Petitions,
you will see that, in spite of all the public accusations CPS made against the
FLDS, they actually had NO EVIDENCE that any of those things actually occurred
there. They admitted in court that they knew of no abuse to any of the children
by either the mothers or the fathers. That is a fact of law now and no amount
of wailing and knashing of teeth by a bunch of Neo-Christian gainsayers is going
to change that. If you have evidence to the contray, name the 14 yr old girl
and name the uncle you referred to, otherwise, stand against the tidal surge and
wait for REAL evidence to come out before you point fingers and condemn. If and
when I see real evidence of such abuse, I will be standing in the front rank to
crucify the offender; until that happens, I WILL NOT be swayed by your or anyone
elses irrational and fanciful accusations.
don't they teach ethics and morality where you went to school?or do
you believe forcing 14 yr old girls to have sex with their uncles is ethically
and morally correct?
To: "the summarizer",, you hit the nail right on the head. This is about abuse
of government authority. We call it the exercise of unrighteous dominion and
CPS has honed it to a science. THIS CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO STAND. Let the courts
deal with the myriad of wild accusations flying about men abusing their
authority and abusing girls. If laws have been broken, CRUCIFY them!! But, let
the trials take place in the proper halls of justice and not in CPS Kangaroo
Courts or the even less credible courts of public opinion. In all my years (and
they are extensive) I have NEVER known any of you people to EVER get it right.
You re-elected the slimeball Bill Clinton to a second term; how DUMB is that?
Point made.In the meantime, return the children to where they
belong; at their mothers' side. NONE OF YOU has the SLIGHTEST right to judge
ANY of these women or their abilty to parent. I hear innuendo being thrown
about as facts and judgments based on hearsay and sensationalized media ploys
and have to hold back the scream of frustration in my head, "Don't they teach
COMMON SENSE in school any more"?
By the way "Finally", the word "religion" has never been typed by me in these
blogs. I have not commented on their religion; I have only commented on their
rights as parents - something near and dear to my heart as a father and
grandfather. I have experience the Gestapo tactics of CPS first-hand as a
foster parent and I can empathize with the FLDS families regarding how they are
being treated by the Texas authorities. The odds are stacked against them, not
so much because they have done anything wrong (evidence to that effect is
totally lacking at this point) but because they are being daily castigated in
the media by the likes of Nancy Grace and the fake experts she puts on the
witness stand in her Kangaroo Court. These children may not be raised the way
yours are (that might be a good thing, I don't know) but they need to be raised
by their own parents following the dictates of the law and common decensy. As
long as that is done, I don't care if they raise their kids to believe the sky
is orange. After raising 9 kids of my own; kids are not dumb.
To; "Finally", well, I haven't been called "Boy" in quite a while. I quite
being a "boy" when I had my first one in 1978. Even he is all grown up now with
two kids of his own. I am not so much "anti-CPS" as I am knowledgeable in who
they are and how they work. Perhaps familiarity does breed contempt in this
case but that is their doing, not mine. You have obviously never sat in a
Family Courtroom and had to fight the System in order to gain custody (or even
to maintain a relationship) with one of your children. I had to do that for my
third daughter in a custody battle with my second wife (at least I had them one
at a time). The entire custodial family law system is biased in favor of the
state, parental or familial rights be d*mned. As much as many of you would like
to believe different, Jeffs has NOTHING to do with any of those parents' rights
to the custody, nurturing, care, and maintenance of their children. CPS, in
violation of their own rules of privacy of a minor, threw those pictures in
there to prejudice the case.
Kit -- you're wrong when you say this is about pedophilia. That is part of it,
no doubt. However, when government abuses the civil rights of its citizens, the
hackles on the back of our necks should rise. The state of Texas' minions in
CPS have done something that would have left our founding fathers breathless.
John Adams and Thomas Jefferson would have been screaming their heads off at
this. Read the Declaration. This is government abuse on a scale that mad King
George could have appreciated.
That's actually pretty funny! This is a free country-- Maybe we should call CPS
a "religion" and then they can do whatever they want too...After all, only the
government has to respect people's rights. If you're abusing women and children
in the name of God, then anyone who questions you is persecuting you for your
religious beliefs and you don't have to answer to that, RIGHT?! WRONG...
Grandpa Phil: Boy, you are so anti-CPS that you can't see the facts
objectively. Why would anyone AGREE to sign over sole custody of their children
to CPS if they weren't trying to prevent something from coming out in the
hearing? If they had nothing to hide (or no one to protect, rather), they would
never have done so and they would have gone on with the hearing. They were
doing what they were told to do--damn the children, save the prophet! And the
evidence is NOT irrelevant if CPS can show that this community is under the
direct control of Jeffs and the "elders" of the FLDS--everything in their lives
is directed by them from what pets to have to what to wear and how to comb their
hair, all the way down to how to raise their children. If Jeffs is guilty of
what he's been convicted of, then all of the children in that community are in
danger. And yes, their belief system is necessarily interwined in that because
of what it is--the "prophet" can never be wrong. It shows a pervasive mentality
of abuse. Just because you call it "religion" doesn't mean it should be
The solution is simple! Any one who has had sex with underage girls Lock-um up
and throw-away the key. The ones that are thinking about becoming a perp. will
have second thoughts. Photos/Books of Mormon/is not against the
law. Focus on those that have committed crimes and show those that have not what
the price will be.
re: religious persecution - CPS and others are accused of persecuting those at
the FLDS ranch. The laws of the land apply to everyone regardless of their
religious background.If I kept my children in a home with a rapist,
and other adults that believed rape was o.k. and taught my kids that they would
be raped someday or be a rapist and I worshiped Thor, the God of Thunder, would
that be o.k. They couldn't take my kids away because to do so would be
religious persecution? If that is the case, you couldn't take ANYONES kids away
for ANY reason. All they would have to say is "I'm a _(fill in the blank)_)"
and we would have to let them go??? Maybe some here think "yea, you can't take
somebody's kids away ever" but those kids have rights too - they are not
property.Also: The FLDS want to be "married" when it is good for
them (to avoid statutory rape charges) by claiming the young girls had parental
permission - but NOT married when it is good for them (to collect welfare or
avoid polygamy charges).
This is a free country and the Nazi Party should be allowed to practise their
powers throught the CPS in Texas.
This isn't about religion, it's about pedophilia. The talk about "freedom of
religion" is just a smoke screen to cover the real issue. All of
the children were taken away because they were all vulnerable to sexual
molestation - potentially by all of the men. Ask yourselves, what man would
live in that environment if he weren't a pedophile? The so called "marriage" of
very young girls to old men is just the tip of the iceberg. Pedophiles go after
children of any age and the women are and have always been compliant.The children were also taken away so that there would be a better chance of
getting truthful testimony. Left with their parents, they would have been
coached and threatened not to "tell". Pedophile specialize in keeping children
from "telling."Read the books.
So -- Warren Jeffs is a pedophile kingpin. The FLDS are kooks with bad hair-dos
and weird dresses. The Texas CPS are bumbling incompetents, and the judge is
also. It is not surprising that we can't stop pedophiles from abusing girls in
the US with our current "justice" system. Pimps do it in a much more egregious
way in every sizeable city. The more shocking crime here is what the government
of Texas did, in forcibly taking 400+ children away from their families with
inadequate justification. Mormons are glued to this story because of the
polygamy aspect. Did I miss anything?
There needs to be more daddy's like you here on this blog. I think that if
there were more daddy's like you out there, than there would be a lot less sex
abuse going on.
Hello "10 PM tonight on CBS". By your comment, "and shed some light on what we
are up against", you have identified yourself with CPS. That is the "we" being
referred to. Don't you people in CPS have something JOB related you SHOULD be
doing at this particular moment? Go find another family to grab their kids
from. I know..... come to my house and try to take mine..........PLEASE.
"Finally", I think you are wrong. Dan Jessop wasn't "afraid" of the testimony
of the children being brought in; he was trying to keep the testimony revelant
to the best interests of the infant in question. CPS was just trying to turn
the hearing into another Kangaroo Court by offering evidence irrelevant to the
case at hand. Such efforts at sensationalism are common in a case without
A Deal? For their own child? The Lindburgh baby kidnappers should have been in
Dallas Morning News"On Tuesday, the Jessops signed an agreement with
state lawyers, saying that the 12-year-old girl shown with Mr. Jeffs lived in
the same building with the couple at the sect's Yearning for Zion ranch in
Eldorado. Mr. Jessop acknowledged that the girl is his sister. Both
are children of Merrill Jessop, a high-ranking figure in the sect. CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said: "It's clearer than ever that children
were at significant risk of sexual abuse at the ranch. We were prepared to
present that evidence to the court today." Mr. Crimmins declined to
speculate on whether the couple backed off their demand for immediate release of
their infant son to avoid more revelations in open court."The FLDS
needs to remember one thing: The eyes of Texas are upon you All the live long day...Get used to it.
The bottom line is that all of the 400+ children are suffering! The underage
brides were more than likely raised for just that and do not know better and to
make it even worse they now have children of their own. Victims having victims!
As a mother, my heart goes out to all of the children and all of the now adults
that were raised in the compound. They do not know any other way of life but
that does not make it okay. This is a messy situation and there will be no
winners, hopefully all can cope.
the video of uncle warren confessing to his brother that he is a liar and has
never been the prophet........was 'photoshopped' too.......please ....
two and a half million dollars in food stamps to hildale this year alone?plus they double dip by spending it at the church owned food town!it's
pretty easy to get rich when you don't pay tax and have slave labor.cut
off the welfare and hildale and colorado city would dry up and blow away
did ya see doughy willy squirm when he was asked to look at the bishops
list..... listing underage brides?yet he has no knowledge of any underage
marriages?what a jokelies
Tx CPS is a bunch of pupule knuckle-heads. Why are they rounding up women and
kids? Why aren't they rounding up the perverts forcing marriage on the women?
Gee, takes one kolohe Hawaiian to figure that one out!
YOU FLDS PEOPLE NEED TO GET A LIFE A ONE WIFE!!!
So,the Texas CPS claims Conservatorship, over a newborn child. What a bunch of
Vampire like Ghouls,hanging around as a mother endures the travail ofbirth, probably drooling,thinking about the moneythey can make, selling
the infant, on the market.Who, at CPS is the Father? This infant was in
nojeopardy, of being married off right away. Texas isusing a chain
saw to perform heart surgery, watchout for the splatter. :-)
I hate to burst your bubble, but Utah Mormon's are not in support of the
practice of plural marriage by this group. I will tell you why it bothers me,
first, I hate to always be mistaken for them. Second, it is against the law, we
as the LDS church opted to obey the laws of the land. Third, people giving
their 13-16 year old daughters to be married "spiritually" not legally, are sick
and demented. Fourth, these people drain the welfare system and are very poorly
educated. Fifth, I hate their cloned dresses, hair and voices, they are spooky.
On a personal note, I did work with some of the group in Southern Utah, some
were really weird, some were nice and I enjoyed what little contact I had with
them, but I didn't agree with them. I was happy when the Kinston group had to
answer to the law, I was happy when Tom Greene went to prison, I was happy that
Warren Jeff's went to prison and I will be happy to see these kids not have to
be forced to have sex at a young age.
Folks remember those parents including the fathers are not Warren Jeffs. You
are all judging them all like they are him. Just admit this action and process
was done completely wrong. These people including the kids have individual
rights. The kids are not safer in this foster care system. Look at the
statistics of it.
I can see that the Texas Attorney General's lawyers are not aimlessly bumbling
along. Their including in this "settlement" an admission that this alleged 12
year old girl lived in the same house with the parents is (i) a possible set up
for a perjury charge against Mrs. Jessop and (ii) forcing this couple into the
position of testifying against others who lived in their house. Long range criminal and CPS tactics, this is not a "win" for this couple or
the FLDS parents at large. "Jessop's attorney, Pat Matassarin, said
...CPS lawyers had come to court with documents several inches thick but she
had no idea what they would be talking about". The lawyers for the parents need
to get together, and focus on serving their own unified discovery demand on the
Texas Attorney General and CPS. Under Texas court procedural rules, lawyers are
not supposed to be blindsided by evidence they've never seen before. A very
aggressive demand for production of documents and witness statements needs to be
made. Otherwise, they will have malpracticed in representing their clients.
re - Brooke 6:27pmYou say it's their right to teach their children
to marry young and have lots of children. What about the child's rights? When
born in and forever confined to a compound like YFZ, the children can be taught
to do anything. A young girl wouldn't know right from wrong except what her
parents teach her. And these parents worship Warren Jeffs and teach
his word - that of a convicted sex offender. And that's ALL they teach. - the
parents really don't want the kids to know anything about the outside world.so - what about the child's rights? Don't you think the child deserves
Ok Steve,I could agree to remove all girls between the ages of 10
and 18 until the family situation of each is investigated to determine if that
specific girl is at risk.How ever, ripping babes from their mothers'
breast (literally) at age 12 months seems a little extreme.And
grabbing young children both male and female younger than 10 years old doesn't
seem justified in this case.The people of CPS seem to be giving a
little ground recently. They could go a long way towards gaining support if
they would apply a little more reason to their actions.
I'm annoyed that some keep claiming that the Texas Court of Appeals found no
evidence of abuse.Not so. They acknowledged sufficient evidence to
take away all girls in puberty.What they also stated was that they
weren't seeing evidence that younger girls and boys were in immediate danger.That is a big, big difference. Supporters of the FLDS obscure this
point.The question is whether the Tezas Supreme Court will uphold
that decision or reverse it. But, still, teenage girls should remain under CPS
The phenomenal support in Utah for this outfit has given me an idea. More of a
prophecy, really. Somewhere in the valley I need to build a compound.
Religious, of course, temple and other necessary trappings. Maybe a casino. In
keeping with the locally well supported religious freedom, I should imagine the
prophet (me) would call for polygamy to be practised. Doesn't hurt anyone, does
it? Everyone would have to be of legal age, and children would not be allowed.
However, there would be a twist. It would be much more short term, and would
involve some compensation, a specified tithe, to practise the religious belief
of polygamy. The men of the church could return and 'marry' again for a short
term, again for payment of the tithe. It really isn't far fetched, in
terms of what we whole heartedly support in the FLDS. If you want scriptural
support, wait until I'm finished writing it.
Everyday, CPS removes babies from homes where one or both parents are drug
addicts. Don't these parents love their children? Yes. Has it been proven
that they are endangering their children? Well, obviously they are making bad
decisions and usually they hang out with law breakers. So, their babies are
taken away.Well, parents living on this compound have made bad decisions.
They have photos of their supreme leader, a convicted felon in almost every
room. The Jessops listen to false prophets and most certainly hang out with
some folks that break the law. (Even though their friends aren't convicted yet.)
So, innocent children shouldn't be exposed to religions run by convicted felons
and their unindicted co-conspirators. Makes sense to me.
Let's see, Jeffs kissing a young girl - very bad. But isn't Jeffs in prison for
the last several years? So how is that evidence for emergency removal of the
children from all the mothers? Jeffs is in prison, not at "the ranch", return
the children.Shouldn't FLDS create a panel of elders to provide
guidance to the "prophet"? Maybe this panel of elders could provide a marriage
policy that would keep the group out of trouble with he exterior community.In the meantime, the children should be returned to their parents
(fathers and mothers) immediately. Any cases of child abuse should be
prosecuted in a court of law within the normal rules of evidence.The
CPS personnel should be chastised severely for their actions in this case. They
should only remove children in true emergencies.
CPS pulls stuff like this in CA all the time! Their usual stunt is to tell
parents that if they insist on a trial to fight the abuse allegations then they
will not be permitted to see or speak with their children until after the trial,
which would be in about 6-9 months or more. The other option is to waive your
right to trial and go along with CPS and you can see or speak to your child
later that same day. Now, when you are dealing with an infant, which would you
choose?? I think this TX case and the agreement is similar. The mother wanted
to stay with her infant and was willing to do whatever was necessary to ensure
that would happen, regardless of her legal rights or how it may affect her legal
In my opinion, the Poligamy Laws are unconstitutional.. Look down your block
and see how many people live together without being married. I don't like the
deterioration of the family unit any more than anyone else but no one prosecutes
unwed mothers or those who cause them. What go on in behind closed doors is not
my business. If for religious reasons, the FLDS chose to raise their children
to believe that marrying young and having lots of children and teaching them
that Poligamy is God's Plan I say it 's their right.
Is some perv. kissing a kid. Ok. Jeffs is presently in Jail. You know where he
is BRING CHARGES AGAINST HIM. But return the children to their
rightful parents. Prosecute abuse. But don't be the abuser yourself, state of
Utah. FYI. If this was really such a 'bombshell', why did the
state let the mom and dad (who is the brother of the girl in the photo), to have
their kids back - even if they are still wards of the state? The parents have
the kids in their physical custody. In my book, that tells me their 'evidence'
is pretty week.
I agree with others - It was the Jessop's lawyer who didn't want the state
evidence shown. I'm sure her lawyer explained what it would take to get the
kids back - they knew it would be extremely hard. They risked it to protect
Warren Jeffs and others like him.CPS and Judge Walthers allowing
this woman to be with her children does not prove that they caved, it shows that
they are not the heartless Nazi's that some have accused them of being.Hypothetical: If Charles Manson had a commune with a bunch of his relatives
and friends living there together, raising each others children, teaching them
that Manson is "perfect" and teaching them to accept the fact that they will
either become like him one day, or become one of his victims would we want the
state to protect those kids or give them back to their mothers? I know that
these FLDS were not accused of murder, but child rape isn't far from it in my
mind. They testified that Jeffs is "perfect" in their minds. They
We need to hang on here---we still do not know all the evidence that was found
in their temple.From what I understand there was alot of damming evidence and if
the court is allowed to continue I feel quite sure that it will be hair-raising
to the ones that say they don't believe that there is any proof of abuse. Oh
bythe way YA'LL is the TEXAS way!!Live with it.
The Jessops were given a sop. All three of Lori's children can stay with her at
a shelter. The only difference between her and other mothers is that she is
getting to live with her children over the age of one. The state maintains
actual custody of all of the children. Dan's situation is more interesting. He
is supposedly party to the sop but doesn't actually have possession of the
children at all. Furthermore, his DNA is doubtlessly being cross-referenced to
see if he has other children among the young girls. (Yes, I know that the
Jessops say they are monogamous, but that doesn't mean it is true.)
Typical CPS tactic bad cop good cop routine; Round-up all the children then
later use these children as leverage. CPS knows parents will do almost anything
to get their children back. This so called good deal is nothing more than
blackmail. Dont think for one minute any government agency that collectively
kidnaps children under false pretense - sensational events that they imagine
might happen in the future - is your friend. Alleged perpetrators should be
prosecuted individually. CPS has a job but this know all do all agency wears
blinders doing it.
This whole mess has me stunned. I am so saddened for the children in this whole
situation. I am also amazed that laws and rights are being trampled on. The
first law that is being ignored is the practice of polygamy. Why aren't these
men all arrested? Why are the children being arrested instead--their rights are
completely neglected? I believe Texas, Utah, Canada, etc. should make a clean
sweep and arrest all polygamous men, rather than trying to work with them to
find out if they are abusing their families. If our society has these laws on
the books they should be enforced. This enormous child abuse case/cases should
have little to do with religious freedom, but rather with obeying the laws of
the land.P.S. I too, thought the pictures of Warren Jeffs with a
young girl was outrageous. That picture alone explains why we have laws against
polygamy and underage marriage.
I saw the picture as well - very creepy. I don't care if they practice polygamy
but I care very much when they marry underaged girls. GO Texas. I hope they
don't rush into returning the children, at least the adolesant girls, because in
my mind everyone of them is in danger and both parents are to blame.
to HD If I ever catch someone kissing my kid like warren Jeffs did
that young girl, I can guarantee you folks, that it would be his last kiss, as
well as his last day on earth.
I'm sure the FLDS doesn't want you to, but you all may want to watch the 48
Hours show on tonight. It will explore FLDS and shed some light on what we are
up against.By the way, I find it appropriate that the Utah Attorney
General calls FLDS the "American Taliban".
3rd Court of Appeals not only said NO EVIDENCE, but they said NO EVIDENCE 5
times. On one page.NO EVIDENCE.NO EVIDENCE.NO EVIDENCE.NO EVIDENCE.NO EVIDENCE.
Regarding the photographs introduced into evidence last week that showed a
12-year-old girl kissing Jeffs in a manner that lawyers for CPS described as
"how a husband kisses a wife", this is very relevant to the entire situation as
this is one more piece of evidence of what is happening.Rod Parker,
the Salt Lake City attorney acting as a spokesman for the FLDS Church, should be
sensored by the court for his comment that this picture has nothing to do with
the current case. Have any of you ever seen an adult hold a 12 yr old girl and
kiss her in this fashion. While I support legal representation for the FLDS, Rod
Parker does not or cannot see the truth of what is going on. If we are looking
for the truth then Rod Parker should step up and call these things what they are
and represent his clients with class and dignity. He makes this situation look
worse with his slant on the facts.
those of you that think this is a great win for FLDS, you couldn't be more
wrong. You really thinl Texas wants to take care of all these kids? No way.
But they don't want them to go back to that compound full of sex predators.
They would have pulled the men if they could have, but the law doesn't work like
that. (If they had pulled the men in, do you really think less people would be
screaming about civil rights?)The state just wants the kids to be
safe. If they could negotiate that all kids go back to the mothers but away from
the fathers, they would do it in a second.
My respect for Judge Walther has gone to zero. Any judge who uses "y'all" in
a statement made from the bench should be inpeached.
re - Thomas 12:01pmI have no clue how you could say that. Dan
Jessop lives in the same BUILDING as a number of these children, yet he has no
problem with his 12 yr old sister being married to a convicted sex offender. He
said as much.And you don't think that's grounds for pulling the
children?Let's hope the Supreme Court is not as naive as you.
Stop the inbreeding--NOW!
I am finding that my own pagan community is watching this case very closely to -
in response to the person saying only UTAH was watching it.Pagans
have had CPS take their children just for their religion, and also put in plans
that the children could not be taught their parents religion. I do not know of
any form of neopaganism with illegal tenets, however.So I think,
IMO, that people USED to religious persecution - that see it for what it is -
are perhaps all more interested in this case, mainly because the children were
taken from THE GROUP as a group action, and the initital hearing was for the
entire group - and because CPS alleges it is THE RELIGION that causes the abuse,
and that the religion MUST NOT BE PRACTICED.Just my opinion. I'm
sure the FLDS are guilty in pockets, but I hate to see innocent individuals
trampled on and prejudged.
Re; JUSTHEFACWHATEVER, NOW PAY ATTENTION,....this couple does not comprehend
how hard it will be to ever regain full custody of their children. Now they will
have to challenge the state of Texas, and prove in court that, "it's in the best
interest of the child" to transfer full custody to the parents in a court of
law. This will only be allowed to be heard after the parents can prove that
there has been a signifacant change in their circumstances, such as to care for
the children in a safe envirement, support, home studies, schyco eval., ect.
Before, the state may have just returned them after the Supreme Court ruling, no
questions asked. The evidence must have startled their attorney!
You need to put this into perspective. You said [I think the
truth will begin to come out little by little and this image that the FLDS would
have us believe--that they're just law abiding citizens exercising their
religion, will be seen for what it is--hogwash].Whether their
beliefs are "Hogwash" or not is irrelevant. This is a legal proceeding. It
isn't about whether their church is true or not. That SHOULD be irrelivant is
far as the legal matter goes. We should NOT try to use the legal system to
prove/disprove someone elses belief system. The court needs to limit itself to
"Legal" issues, not deciding if a person's religious beliefs are Hogwash or
not.Texas also needs to try to get beyond their religious
motivations in this case... or the whole thing is eventually going to backfire
on them and EVERYONE involved is going to be worse off because a few people in
CPS lost persepctive and turned this abuse case into a religion motivated
Did you guys notice the caveat emptor - the agreement depends upon the State
Supreme Court decision? If the State rejects the stays and appeal, then the
kids are going home (unless the State says a portion have to remain in custody
such as the young teenage, unmarried women.
You need to get your facts straight--either that or you're purposely twisting
them. Are you FLDS by chance? The evidentiary hearing had not yet been
conducted. By agreeing to this, the Jessops said they do not challenge the
state's sole custody so that there would not be a hearing--that's a huge
difference from what you're saying. Yes, they got temporary possession, but
only the mother gets to stay with the children at the shelter--it's not like
they let them all go back to the ranch together. It's interesting to me that
many folks keep saying there are no facts or evidence presented, but the second
they try to produce some, it's deal making time. The story also says that it
was the Jessops' attorney's motion to continue the hearing. I'm speculating a
bit here, but my guess is because she didn't want to risk CPS's introducing
evidence that would be damning to her clients. CPS caved because they didn't
want to risk the evidence being excluded. So they made a deal that they could
all live with.
Hey, what ever happened to the polygamy law? It seems to me that the law alone
would be enough to start in helping protect these children -- so why "no
enforcement" attitude? At least Texas is trying.By the way, if the lawmen
came into the Zion compound and went case by case as suggested with questions
first, etc. after the first family was being interviewed, all the rest would
flee. So there you are, back to square one. This seems like an obvious result
to me. Why not you?I know a polygamist who told me of a mother who
listened to her 14 year old daughter just screaming being (raped) by a much much
older man in the next room and she did nothing. What a dilemma these little
ones are in. One can't tell me this is OK in the name of religion.I
will bet many who have posted here who are against Texas are FLDS. So sad for these little ones who are the victims -- and many not even knowing
it because they are born into this practice and being groomed. Who is to help
them if everyone turns a blind eye?
Perhaps you need to go back and re-read everything about this case frm the very
beginning. CPS *already had* sole conservatorship. Prior
to today the Jessop's didn't have anything. Not even temporary possession.Now they do have temporary possession. Who won? Who lost?
Who caved?CPS caved. CPS lost. CPS has less than what they had
before. Jessops have more than what they had before.Pay attention. I
know it's hard for you. ;)
You are correct--the parents signed over SOLE CONSERVATORSHIP to Texas, and they
are just TEMPORARY POSSESSORS. Folks, that means these parents AGREED to let
CPS have legal custody of their kids, as long as the kids could, at least for
now, stay with the mom at the shelter AND, not insignificantly, there would not
be a hearing with testimony which would have involved Jeffs and his "alleged"
child bride. They were trying to avoid the testimony that would be given during
Just to respond to some of the comments here, the state did verify abuse by
finding underage girls married to older men and with children which indicates
statutory rape. The adults on the compound were not able to accurately identify
the family members of the girls and so all of the children were taken until it
could be determined which families were involved in abuse. The children were of
no help determining abuse as they couldn't identify their biological mothers and
fathers.Some people erroneously compare this situation to one
household on a block committing abuse, followed by CPS removing all of the
children living on the block. Families on a block are not ruled by a fascist
leader whereas it seems these FLDS families may be. We need to look at the
dictates of Warren Jeffs and see what percentage of adults conform. Did anyone
wear red on the compound? Were there any pets, toys or non-religious books?
According to the bishop's report, all of the mature families save maybe one,
practiced polygamy, so it seems that the families are very conformist and that
their daughters are all at risk for underage marriage.
Defenders,.....You need to go back and read the entire story, not just the
headline! What part did you not get?.....They just signed over, legal custody to
the state, as temp. poss. is almost nothing in terms of custody. Their attorney
must have really feared the evidence about to be brought, and grasped at the
best deal they could get. The headline should read,- FLDS COUPLE ACCEPTS DEAL
I don't think the people who seem pro-FLDS support polygamy. Religious persecution is something that a lot of people in Utah identify with.
Utah was founded by people who were driven out of the settled parts of the US
for their religious beliefs, and that history is as much a part of the state
mindset as the Alamo is for Texas. Add to that the fact that people
still associate Mormonism with polygamy even though the religion disavowed the
practice more than a hundred years ago and will instantly excommunicate anyone
who goes that direction, and the Utah interest is understandable.I
think the Utah interest in this is not really sympathy for the FLDS--every
Mormon person I know thinks they're crackpot heretics--it's a reaction to seeing
an entire religious community's children taken by a government agency that seems
to have the attitude that it doesn't have to justify itself to anyone.I say stop the polygamy, but don't punish the children. A lot of people think
the FLDS don't deserve to keep their children...but maybe the children don't
deserve to lose their parents. I think the state of Texas can do better than
victimizing hundreds of innocent children.
The fact is that CPS should be verifying abuse and then taking the children, not
the other way around. You don't pull all the children and place them in foster
care and then figure out whose in harm's way. To me, this article just supports
that not all 450(?) kids were/are/will be abused.I'm sure the Texas
Supreme Court will find similar cause and support the Appeals Court.
I agree that the state of Texas must involve itself if the FLDS are indeed
violating the state's laws against marriage (and sexual relations with) 14 y/o
girls. That said, it is quite alarming that any government can trample all over
citizens' due process rights, which the FLDS case involved--it calls into
question the legitimacy of state action. In addition, I do not agree that the
state has any right to interfere in the contractual/marital arrangements amongs
consenting adults unless they can prove that the state has a compelling
interest--for example, it might be proven that incestuous relationships can
promulgate genetic problems. I don't even agree that the state should license
marriages at all, lest the state interfere in private relationships, with the
I have to agree with Justthefactsmaam. If CPS had anything on this couple they
would have kept the two kids. They would not have bent one inch. As far as it being his little sister that married Warren Jeffs, being related
to idiots or criminals does not make you one. If Warren Jeffs is the nightmare
that he is made out to be then there is very little this man could have done to
prevent his sister from marrying Jeffs. So not much of an argument there. We don't take the children away from the mom if the dad is charged with
child abuse of children outside his own. So I don't see how Warren Jeff's
marriage has anything to do with this baby. I know many disagree but that is my
opinion and I don't live in Utah and am not FLDS.
How much is all this costing the taxpayers?
the thing is that there is no proof that all or even any of the children have
been abused at this point. It kind of is like if your neighbor down the street
abused his kids the state came and took all of the kids from the neighborhood
because they must be abused too.
This is a very difficult case.My great grandfather had 3 wives (but only
two mother-in-laws as he married sisters) and went on a mission to the southern
states to avoid prosecution on polygamy charges. One of his companions was
Heber J. Grant.The US Supreme court ruled that we have the right to
believe what we want, just not practice polygamy.The first amendment
reads; "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion nor
prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."So much for the free
exercise part.Forced marriages; however, do not constitute free
exercise of religion.We have seen laws changed (changing the
marriage age from 14 to 16) an apparent hoax phone call that started the whole
thing, a mass kidnapping of over 450 children just because they thought some
kids were being abused and there was a suspected religious theme.Oh
well, I am pleased I am not dealing with this...
Thanks, good comment!
Hey, watch your government: When one person's children are abused while the
government looks the other way, it puts all our children at risk. I guess we
should just all shrug our shoulders and say it's OK in the name of freedome of
"When one persons rights are denied, everyone's rights are endangered."Tell that to the FLDS children, hypocrit!
I find it fascinating that very little of this makes its way to the major Texas
papers, such as the Houston Chronicle. People in utah seem to be much more
concerned with the day to day events unfolding in this case. And just reading
the comments here, it appears that many Utahns have already made up their minds
that the FLDS is in the right--not all but certainly quite a few. HMMMMM Maybe
Utah needs to finally cut itself loose from polygamy and the culture that it
breeds. I am not LDS, but if you honestly believe God doesn't condone polygamy
anymore, stop defending it and stop defending its results. And yes--kicking out
boys and marrying young girls off to older men ARE results of a culture of
polygamy. At least Texas has the guts to stand up to this.
==TO AVOID THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT IS TO AVOID CIVIL LIBERTIES
ARGUMENTS QUOTE: Glen Lavy says that the California Supreme Court?s
legal reasoning could be applied to polygamous marriages and [FLDS]
POLYGAMIST CUSTODY CASES. [A week earlier, I used the same reasoning AGAINST
the Texas CPS arguments: the polygamist childrens slippery slope argument.]
QUOTE LOS ANGELES TIMES with my comment added. ==
Dan jessop is one step closer to getting his family back. Not the other way
around. If CPS had a real case, you think they would have allowed
the children to go to Mom? No way. CPS in Texas is losing their
shirts, skirts and anything else the wind has blown up.
My a) above, of course, is referring to the credibility of the 'so-called parade
of witnesses.'If that parade was worth a plug nickel, wild horses
wouldn't have kept Texas CPS from NOT CAVING and NOT handing those kids over to
the mother. Instead, they would have GLEEFULLY gone into court and put on their
PARADE. Only an idiot thinks they have won when they have LOST their
primary objective; full control of the children and a MASSIVE LOST of the degree
of previous control that they had previously exerted.What MOTIVATION
could have caused Texas CPS to ACCEPT SO MUCH LESS than what they already had IF
they had such a great 'parade of witnesses.'Only logical answer is
that they were afraid the parade of witnesses would BLOW UP IN THEIR FACES just
like everything else has for them in this fiasco.
When one persons rights are denied, everyone's rights are endangered.
I agree with "realitycheck"--Dan Jessop must have really been scared of the
potential testimony in order to make a deal with CPS about anything. This thing
is looking more and more like a mafia ring rather than a religion...I think the
truth will begin to come out little by little and this image that the FLDS would
have us believe--that they're just law abiding citizens exercising their
religion, will be seen for what it is--hogwash.
A "deal" from any Government is a "no deal".One of the biggest lies
- "I'm from the Government & I'm here to help you!"
Reality you are unreal. This is grounds for an investigation. It presents no
grounds for the standard of eminent danger of abuse. It does not justify the
legalized kidnapping of over 400 children.
wow - Dan Jessop really didn't want his 13 yr old sister to testify that she is
married to Warren Jeffs. Guess he finally figured out that if he'll let his
sister marry at 12 then he's not as good a parent as he suggests.
This case will end in the US Supreme Court asking for that court ruling on
freedom of religion.
Hmmm... Testifying 12 year old sisters married to your "perfect prophet" and
living in the same residence are a bit scary, huh?So much for "No
proof! Send the kids home!"