Reader comments
Utah, Texas laws are similar; FLDS population isn't
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Thomas | 4:04 a.m. May 25, 2008
People should not be distracted by the issue of polygamy. The most shocking part
about this case was the lack of due procees. CPS made broad accustions about the
whole group and ignored invidual differences. Five girls who appeared to be
underage was insufficient to allow a mass round-up of kids. Individual parents
and children were not allowed their day in court.
Exactly! | 8:14 a.m. May 25, 2008
That's exactly it, Thomas. Any other crime, as Texas considers it, would
not have been handled this way. They are violating the rights of due process,
that are supposed to be aloud to everyone, regardless of their crime and
religion or race, etc. And the whole community is NOT one household. The charges
should be handled one family at a time, just like with ANY OTHER CRIME.
realitycheck | 11:17 a.m. May 25, 2008
so if you two first posters are so convinced that everything is fine on that
ranch, let me ask you...
would you send your 13 yr old daughter there for the summer? if not, you are hypocrites.
Texas did what any concerned parent would do - they pulled the kids until they could figure out what was going on. Otherwise every one of those children would be in Colorado City or Hilldale by now. You know it and I know it.
FLDS would have swooped those kids out as soon as Texas turned their backs. Don't you think these kids deserve every right to protection?
would you send your 13 yr old daughter there for the summer? if not, you are hypocrites.
Texas did what any concerned parent would do - they pulled the kids until they could figure out what was going on. Otherwise every one of those children would be in Colorado City or Hilldale by now. You know it and I know it.
FLDS would have swooped those kids out as soon as Texas turned their backs. Don't you think these kids deserve every right to protection?
Comments continue below
gal50 | 11:53 a.m. May 25, 2008
In examining the math of this problem, the smaller problem in Texas is landed
upon 24 million citizens whereas the larger problem in Utah is landed upon 2.6
million people, which is why the federal government may need to devote resources
to handling this problem in Utah.
These facts may give Shurtleff a practical explanation for not enforcing the law, but it has to be determined whether the law can and should be enforced. If so, it should be done now rather than later, because this population is increasing faster than the norm and the mess will only get larger and more out of hand.
Everyone agrees that the Texas compound was a result of Utah occasionally enforcing the law. The walls and the guards were created so that no one could get information that would allow the state to go after those who practiced illegal activity, namely statutory rape and polygamy.
As is now coming to light, there are a lot more polygamists than rapists. The bishop's list seemed to show that every mature family, save maybe one, practiced polygamy. The remaining families were too young. Most girls had not be subjected to statutory rape.
These facts may give Shurtleff a practical explanation for not enforcing the law, but it has to be determined whether the law can and should be enforced. If so, it should be done now rather than later, because this population is increasing faster than the norm and the mess will only get larger and more out of hand.
Everyone agrees that the Texas compound was a result of Utah occasionally enforcing the law. The walls and the guards were created so that no one could get information that would allow the state to go after those who practiced illegal activity, namely statutory rape and polygamy.
As is now coming to light, there are a lot more polygamists than rapists. The bishop's list seemed to show that every mature family, save maybe one, practiced polygamy. The remaining families were too young. Most girls had not be subjected to statutory rape.
SECULAR_SOLUTION | 12:23 p.m. May 25, 2008
=
BIGAMY: SECULAR SOLUTION
(WITH OR WITHOUT LEGISLATION)
REDEFINE/RECAST: "SPIRITUAL MARRIAGES" AS
"PRENUPTIAL AGREEMENTS"
WITH ALL INCIDENTS OF MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN,
YET ALL THE PARTIES ARE NOT BEING
OFFICIALLY MARRIED IN THE EYES OF THE COURT OR
IN THE EYES OF THE LAW."
LEGAL PRENUPTIAL CONTRACTS THAT PRECLUDE (A) PRESUMPTION OF MARRIAGES OR (B) AUTOMATIC MARRIAGES BY DEFAULT
PROBABLE SOLUTION FOR POLYGAMISTS TO WIN IN TEXAS (IN FULL OR IN PART)
SIGNED: RECKIPS
==
BIGAMY: SECULAR SOLUTION
(WITH OR WITHOUT LEGISLATION)
REDEFINE/RECAST: "SPIRITUAL MARRIAGES" AS
"PRENUPTIAL AGREEMENTS"
WITH ALL INCIDENTS OF MARRIAGE AND CHILDREN,
YET ALL THE PARTIES ARE NOT BEING
OFFICIALLY MARRIED IN THE EYES OF THE COURT OR
IN THE EYES OF THE LAW."
LEGAL PRENUPTIAL CONTRACTS THAT PRECLUDE (A) PRESUMPTION OF MARRIAGES OR (B) AUTOMATIC MARRIAGES BY DEFAULT
PROBABLE SOLUTION FOR POLYGAMISTS TO WIN IN TEXAS (IN FULL OR IN PART)
SIGNED: RECKIPS
==
unconvinced | 4:40 p.m. May 25, 2008
So if this is why Shurtleff hasn't acted against 10,000 polygamist what is
the reason he hasn't acted against any?
Does Utah not have the resources to protect even one polygamy abuse victim?
Sad.
Does Utah not have the resources to protect even one polygamy abuse victim?
Sad.
Doug Forbes | 5:09 p.m. May 25, 2008
"every adult man and woman in a plural marriage � was
committing a second-degree felony for which they can go to prison for 20
years"
Balony
Whatever the law says about bigamy, there are no effective laws against polyamorous relationships in Texas or any other state and if there were and they were in forces, most of the population would be criminalized.
Balony
Whatever the law says about bigamy, there are no effective laws against polyamorous relationships in Texas or any other state and if there were and they were in forces, most of the population would be criminalized.
Stewart | 5:20 p.m. May 25, 2008
Just because you can't catch all of the drug dealers is no reason for not
enforcing the laws. Just because you can't stop all of the child abusers
FLDS or not, is no reason for not enforcing the laws. The only difference here
is that if you throw a little religion into the mix, child sexual abuse seems to
be permitted (constitutional).
Stewart | 7:24 p.m. May 25, 2008
Another bold statement by you.
These are not drug dealers.
Enforceing the laws is what the CPS should have done rather than run them over like a bulldozer.
There is not one bit of evidence that any girl boy or
animal was abused sexual or otherwise.
It's your mind working overtime to justify an opinion
that is out of touch with reality.
The reality is these peole have committed no crime.
If they had why are they not charged?
The FLDS although they may have some issues to deal with have a very clean lifestyle, no tv, alcohol home schooling. How does that compare with the inner cities?.
The FLDS are living there beliefs, are you ?
Child sexual abuse does exist and has been around forever, it is not right. You may want to check out your own family for this aspect.
Why does the FLDS issue bring out the stupid in the
supporters of the CPS over common sense and fundmental rights that have been overlooked by
the CPS.
The Catholic child abuse issues seem to be much more widspread and we do not see all the children being
stolen away.
These are not drug dealers.
Enforceing the laws is what the CPS should have done rather than run them over like a bulldozer.
There is not one bit of evidence that any girl boy or
animal was abused sexual or otherwise.
It's your mind working overtime to justify an opinion
that is out of touch with reality.
The reality is these peole have committed no crime.
If they had why are they not charged?
The FLDS although they may have some issues to deal with have a very clean lifestyle, no tv, alcohol home schooling. How does that compare with the inner cities?.
The FLDS are living there beliefs, are you ?
Child sexual abuse does exist and has been around forever, it is not right. You may want to check out your own family for this aspect.
Why does the FLDS issue bring out the stupid in the
supporters of the CPS over common sense and fundmental rights that have been overlooked by
the CPS.
The Catholic child abuse issues seem to be much more widspread and we do not see all the children being
stolen away.
Re: Reality Check | 10:40 p.m. May 25, 2008
Yes Mr. Reality Check I would send my daughter to the Texas Compound. I would
let them know she not to be married until she is 18 and is free to marry any one
of her choice.
Better with the FLDS than with the public schools system, or in foster homes. The Foster homes that
most of these children are in are 100 times more
abusive than the FLDS could ever be.
I grew up in foster homes. Most every body that
is supportive of the CPS has overlooked the foster home issue. The Foster homes produce teenage pregnancy at 3 X the FLDS. Drug abuse is rampant with some foster parents being the dealers useing the children as pushers (yes it's true) check out the CPS case files.
So I guess you would rather have the State raise your children huh?
The FLDS are much better parents than any foster home would be.
I am sure the FLDS people realize that if they were to contenue with underage marriages and forced marriages they would be guilty of crimes.
Till now however where is the proof that a crime has been committed.
Wake up Texas and let them free.
Better with the FLDS than with the public schools system, or in foster homes. The Foster homes that
most of these children are in are 100 times more
abusive than the FLDS could ever be.
I grew up in foster homes. Most every body that
is supportive of the CPS has overlooked the foster home issue. The Foster homes produce teenage pregnancy at 3 X the FLDS. Drug abuse is rampant with some foster parents being the dealers useing the children as pushers (yes it's true) check out the CPS case files.
So I guess you would rather have the State raise your children huh?
The FLDS are much better parents than any foster home would be.
I am sure the FLDS people realize that if they were to contenue with underage marriages and forced marriages they would be guilty of crimes.
Till now however where is the proof that a crime has been committed.
Wake up Texas and let them free.
Interloper | 2:36 a.m. May 26, 2008
The appeals court that decided in favor of the FLDS consists of three
ulltraconservatives. Their decision was poorly reasoned and did not give enough
deference to the trial court. I am hoping the Texas Supreme Court is less
politically biased and will reach a result that prevents most of the children
being returned to the secretive confines of YFZ Ranch.
It is important that the courts not ignore the FLDS' raison d'etre is polygamy. Absent the belief that polygamy brings exhaltation to men, the mistreatment of children and women the FLDS is involved in would not be occuring.
It is important that the courts not ignore the FLDS' raison d'etre is polygamy. Absent the belief that polygamy brings exhaltation to men, the mistreatment of children and women the FLDS is involved in would not be occuring.
Ray | 5:30 a.m. May 26, 2008
When the custody hearing for Dan Jessop's baby boy starts again Tuesday
morning, I'd love to see Dan's lawyer bring a Ouija board into the
courtroom, and put up his Ouija board against CPS's Ouija board.
I mean, if that is not how CPS is getting its view of the future, then what are they doing? How is anthing CPS can do, better at predicting the baby's future out 40 years from now?
Let's see the CPS Ouija board vs. Dan's Ouija board!
I mean, if that is not how CPS is getting its view of the future, then what are they doing? How is anthing CPS can do, better at predicting the baby's future out 40 years from now?
Let's see the CPS Ouija board vs. Dan's Ouija board!
Constitution | 9:21 a.m. May 26, 2008
Amendment #1 of the Constitution of The United States: "Congress shall make
no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise
thereof"
What right do you have to tell these people how they can worship God?
What right do you have to tell these people how they can worship God?
No age too young? | 9:54 a.m. May 26, 2008
"Voss said, adding that a teenager told investigators she believed there
was "no age too young to be spiritually" united with a man."
I find this very disturbing. If a young girl sees no age as too young the FLDS need to be stopped, and taking all the children was the only option. Texas will have to prosecute the men and women who allow underage marriage. I am sure that CPS is giving the Supreme Court much more information than we have through the media.
Does this quote bother anyone else?
I find this very disturbing. If a young girl sees no age as too young the FLDS need to be stopped, and taking all the children was the only option. Texas will have to prosecute the men and women who allow underage marriage. I am sure that CPS is giving the Supreme Court much more information than we have through the media.
Does this quote bother anyone else?
Anonymous | 3:34 p.m. May 26, 2008
It's an interesting exercise to put oneself in the minds of CPS. CPS
probably thinks everyone they come into contact with, not just FLDS, lies so why
should they believe things like birth certificates.
For instance, Dan Jessop has 45 half-siblings on the ranch so presto by the CPS sibling rule, all of those under 18 are eligible to be taken into custody. Then there is the matter of reassigning wives and whether teenagers are sisters or sister-wives. The only way CPS is going to be satisfied about anything in that realm is the paternity testing. It will be interesting to see what happens with that.
I can say from family experience that having religiously closed-minded parents CAN make kids more vulnerable to the depravity of people who prey on kids like that. The problem is NOT necessarily the religion; other people of faith have a different perspective and DO learn coping or other skills to protect them. I have VERY serious concerns about abuse dynamics in this community. I also want to see more information about the circumstance under which CPS has obtained their evidence.
HOWEVER, I DO NOT think CPS custody is an improvement over the YFZ ranch.
For instance, Dan Jessop has 45 half-siblings on the ranch so presto by the CPS sibling rule, all of those under 18 are eligible to be taken into custody. Then there is the matter of reassigning wives and whether teenagers are sisters or sister-wives. The only way CPS is going to be satisfied about anything in that realm is the paternity testing. It will be interesting to see what happens with that.
I can say from family experience that having religiously closed-minded parents CAN make kids more vulnerable to the depravity of people who prey on kids like that. The problem is NOT necessarily the religion; other people of faith have a different perspective and DO learn coping or other skills to protect them. I have VERY serious concerns about abuse dynamics in this community. I also want to see more information about the circumstance under which CPS has obtained their evidence.
HOWEVER, I DO NOT think CPS custody is an improvement over the YFZ ranch.
Jonathan Wurst | 8:54 p.m. May 26, 2008
"No age too young? | 9:54 a.m. May 26, 2008
"Voss said, adding that a teenager told investigators she believed there was "no age too young to be spiritually" united with a man."
"I find this very disturbing. If a young girl sees no age as too young the FLDS need to be stopped, and taking all the children was the only option. Texas will have to prosecute the men and women who allow underage marriage. I am sure that CPS is giving the Supreme Court much more information than we have through the media."
Jonathan: I'm sure it would bother most people since most people are completely IGNORANT of what the scriptures/Bible teaches on the subject. NO AGE has EVER been mentioned in the Bible. Therefore, just what "age" is too young? It is simple, marriage age, according to the Bible, is not a numerical figure, but the ONSET OF PUBERTY! Period.
Does anyone here know at what age young men and women were allowed to be married in almost all of the States of the Union in the 1800's and the first half of the 1900's? 12 for young women, and 14 for young men.
to all FLDS | 12:49 a.m. May 27, 2008
pay property tax(including back taxes) and stop taking welfare in colorado city
and hildale, and i'll listen to what you have to say about the child bride
issue.
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