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Young 'did not order massacre'
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Ken Baguley | 12:28 p.m. May 25, 2008
I will report again...My wife's Aunt Dorothy Brown was the daughter of
Frank J. Cannon...They had a housekeeper who was Brigham Young's
housekeeper when the rider from the South came to report the situation with the
wagon train. Brigham was heard to say, "You tell them to let those people
go and don't spare the horse flesh!" When Aunt Dot told us this story
she said, I'm telling you this as I believe you'd be the ones to know
the importance. We did not know how important this was...In 1970 she had just
had her 90th birthday, I believe.
jr | 12:41 p.m. May 25, 2008
I am leary of any group writing a book to right a wrong so long ago. The
question will always be in the minds of people as so much was done to avoid and
cover up in the earliest days of the misdeed. Time to move on because the truth
will never be known and someone of today digging up papers to suit their story
is not the answer but some will accept and some won't. Move forward it
happened and if there is a GOD then he knows
Comments continue below
Loyal LDS | 12:44 p.m. May 25, 2008
Well, Whatever, I believe Brigham Young would not want to be known as a coward,
or would he? This mess with the MMM was all done by Brigham Young's loyal
servants. So figure it it out on your own.
LDS in Mississippi | 1:51 p.m. May 25, 2008
To everyone, whatever camp of opinion you belong to:
GET OVER IT ALREADY.
GET OVER IT ALREADY.
Learn from History | 1:59 p.m. May 25, 2008
Yes, it's time to move on. But moving on does not mean taking away the
memory of this horrible event. It means learning from our mistakes. Although we
cannot go back and restore life to those who were murdered, we can remember them
and avoid the things that brought about this tragedy so that it never happens
again.
We would do well to re-read the bullet points in the article that warn us of attitudes that are dangerous.
Intolerance, self-righteousness, unrighteous dominion, blind obedience to religious authority, religion dictating civil leadership.
While religion has had a profoundly positive influence in our world, it is also the basis for some of the most horrific crimes against humanity. It works both ways.
While I am sad reading unjustified bashing of the LDS faith, I am also saddened by those who are so defensive of the church that they refuse to see that abuses of power and misuse of religion are very much a part of any faith, including the LDS church.
We cannot fight what we refuse to see.
We would do well to re-read the bullet points in the article that warn us of attitudes that are dangerous.
Intolerance, self-righteousness, unrighteous dominion, blind obedience to religious authority, religion dictating civil leadership.
While religion has had a profoundly positive influence in our world, it is also the basis for some of the most horrific crimes against humanity. It works both ways.
While I am sad reading unjustified bashing of the LDS faith, I am also saddened by those who are so defensive of the church that they refuse to see that abuses of power and misuse of religion are very much a part of any faith, including the LDS church.
We cannot fight what we refuse to see.
Fredd | 2:07 p.m. May 25, 2008
Article states, "Brigham met with Indians and they sais they were afraid to
fight Americans. No evidence Indians went south except for one who arrived
after MMM."
Okay, so what was Brigham meeting with the Indians about? Why did the Indians say they didn't want to fight Americans? Why was it significant no Indians went south?
here's one view.
Brigham met with the Indians to enlist their aid fighting Americans. If the Indians had gone south would that be evidence Brigham ordered MMM? If so what was said that makes Turley think he has to point out no one from the meeting went south? Is it because what was discussed is a smoking gun?
Okay, so what was Brigham meeting with the Indians about? Why did the Indians say they didn't want to fight Americans? Why was it significant no Indians went south?
here's one view.
Brigham met with the Indians to enlist their aid fighting Americans. If the Indians had gone south would that be evidence Brigham ordered MMM? If so what was said that makes Turley think he has to point out no one from the meeting went south? Is it because what was discussed is a smoking gun?
Vinny | 2:19 p.m. May 25, 2008
To LDS in Mississippi
Tell that to the ones who brought this Brigham Young, MMM subject up, and got everyones attention. Perhaps you should get over it, and know that people will post whatever they want on the MMM. That seems to be what the post is all about. That is why there is a post like this.... Blah Blah Blah.
My thoughts are, I see only one big word that says GUILTY!
Tell that to the ones who brought this Brigham Young, MMM subject up, and got everyones attention. Perhaps you should get over it, and know that people will post whatever they want on the MMM. That seems to be what the post is all about. That is why there is a post like this.... Blah Blah Blah.
My thoughts are, I see only one big word that says GUILTY!
Billy Button | 2:38 p.m. May 25, 2008
Hey, Fredd, That is so true.
I smell a rat lurking around the MMM catastrophe. Someone is coving to make Brigham Young look like a saintly person. The Mormon people back then, none of them were perfect saints. Lets all get through all the deceptions, acts and acting skits. This is not someones idea of a good scrip for a play or anything like it. They are just trying to make the BY look better in the eyes of the world. That is all.
I smell a rat lurking around the MMM catastrophe. Someone is coving to make Brigham Young look like a saintly person. The Mormon people back then, none of them were perfect saints. Lets all get through all the deceptions, acts and acting skits. This is not someones idea of a good scrip for a play or anything like it. They are just trying to make the BY look better in the eyes of the world. That is all.
IF YOU ARE WISE | 3:31 p.m. May 25, 2008
Read the book and look for the historical evidence. Historians are wiser than
the majority of the comments.
Fredd | 4:17 p.m. May 25, 2008
I find it hard to believe the whole community acted as one without some guidance
from above. Maybe it wasn't specific to this wagon train but he created an
environment it could occur and then through his actions/inaction condoned it.
That's all I neeed to know.
THE REAL ANSWER TO THE AUTHOR'S | 5:11 p.m. May 25, 2008
It's very easy to conclude erroneously that Brigham did not massacre just
because there isn't enough evidence to lead to his guilt. WAY Too COLD of a
CASE this is.
HERE IS THE REAL ANSWER TO THE AUTHOR'S FINDINGS:
"There wasn't enough evidence to assure that Brigham Young was involved with the massacre, however, there is also not enough evidence to clear his name with absolute certainty.
At this time we can only conclude that there wasn't enough information that was gathered to warrant Young as being involved, and neither do we have warrant that would free him completely.
Further unobtainable documentations would be neccesary in order to pursue this matter to its ultimate indisputable mark of history, and the unanswerable questions that leaves both sides of the issue unsatisfied means that we cannot, with clean conscience label the massacre with any other means but that it's a sad and tragic part of Mormon history.
It's our obligation and duty to remember those who have perished in our hearts. For they are no less, the children of God, who we hope with earnest of heart, that they are taken into the arms of His love."
HERE IS THE REAL ANSWER TO THE AUTHOR'S FINDINGS:
"There wasn't enough evidence to assure that Brigham Young was involved with the massacre, however, there is also not enough evidence to clear his name with absolute certainty.
At this time we can only conclude that there wasn't enough information that was gathered to warrant Young as being involved, and neither do we have warrant that would free him completely.
Further unobtainable documentations would be neccesary in order to pursue this matter to its ultimate indisputable mark of history, and the unanswerable questions that leaves both sides of the issue unsatisfied means that we cannot, with clean conscience label the massacre with any other means but that it's a sad and tragic part of Mormon history.
It's our obligation and duty to remember those who have perished in our hearts. For they are no less, the children of God, who we hope with earnest of heart, that they are taken into the arms of His love."
Ernest T. Bass | 5:19 p.m. May 25, 2008
What did Brigham Young say when he visited the site of the massacre about a year
after the fact?
He may not have ordered the attack but he did not disagree with it or the mind-set that caused it.
He may not have ordered the attack but he did not disagree with it or the mind-set that caused it.
OK to be Dumb | 5:39 p.m. May 25, 2008
We all have the unalienable right to be just plain ignorant and closed minded.
No one is going to take that from you. Stand by your guns, I mean by your ideas
and prejudices. Don't allow anything to change you, especially if you are
truly in the unique position to have the inside track on such a difficult period
in Utah history.
But if you ever find yourself at a point where you can open that steel trap of a brain, you might let in a few nuances of color. Attend a Mormon meeting. Read a Mormon book. Discover for yourself that this Religion isn't about killing and revenge. Read what Blake said earlier about mid page 1 of these comments. If you want a defiant group, this isn't it. If you want a destructive group, not here. If you want love and forgiveness, THIS IS THE PLACE.
But if you ever find yourself at a point where you can open that steel trap of a brain, you might let in a few nuances of color. Attend a Mormon meeting. Read a Mormon book. Discover for yourself that this Religion isn't about killing and revenge. Read what Blake said earlier about mid page 1 of these comments. If you want a defiant group, this isn't it. If you want a destructive group, not here. If you want love and forgiveness, THIS IS THE PLACE.
historyredux | 5:54 p.m. May 25, 2008
Why would Brigham Young University scholars come to the conclusion that Brigham
Young was innocent of giving the orders for the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
Well...flashback 2004..think Grant Palmer. ( might wanna Google that.) Memory and logic don't seem to fit in to the "always picking on us" mentality.
Well...flashback 2004..think Grant Palmer. ( might wanna Google that.) Memory and logic don't seem to fit in to the "always picking on us" mentality.
BRIGHAM & NEPHI & MOSES | 6:03 p.m. May 25, 2008
Your statement, "If anyone were to use their brains about this episode they
would realize that people who teach peace, who teach forgiveness and love, who
endure false and defamatory accusations, who are all about happiness and the
golden rule are not the ones who would be also taught to kill. Use your
brains."
I'm sorry, but you didn't used your brain did you?
Because if you did, you'd know that your logic doesn't work, because Nephi, who was supposedly, someone who teaches peace, forgiveness, and love, endured false and defamatory accusations, who are all about happiness, actually became a murderer himself. Yes, no matter how you look at it, Nephi killed with his bare hands a man who was drunk and defenseless.
Do you want another example?
MOSES!!
Nephi was told, it is better for a man to die for the purposes of God.
Why is it hard to believe that Brigham killed for the purposes of His God????
The man that was executed for his leadership on the massacre, said that, "To his grave he will never deny that Brigham was responsible for the massacre".
Pretty strong statement of a man who worshipped the prophet of God.
I'm sorry, but you didn't used your brain did you?
Because if you did, you'd know that your logic doesn't work, because Nephi, who was supposedly, someone who teaches peace, forgiveness, and love, endured false and defamatory accusations, who are all about happiness, actually became a murderer himself. Yes, no matter how you look at it, Nephi killed with his bare hands a man who was drunk and defenseless.
Do you want another example?
MOSES!!
Nephi was told, it is better for a man to die for the purposes of God.
Why is it hard to believe that Brigham killed for the purposes of His God????
The man that was executed for his leadership on the massacre, said that, "To his grave he will never deny that Brigham was responsible for the massacre".
Pretty strong statement of a man who worshipped the prophet of God.
RE: OK to be dumb | 6:06 p.m. May 25, 2008
"But if you ever find yourself at a point where you can open that steel
trap of a brain, you might let in a few nuances of color. Attend a Mormon
meeting. Read a Mormon book. Discover for yourself that this Religion isn't
about killing and revenge. Read what Blake said earlier about mid page 1 of
these comments. If you want a defiant group, this isn't it. If you want a
destructive group, not here. If you want love and forgiveness, THIS IS THE
PLACE."
This is what the FLDS believes. They use the Book of Mormon, attend the Mormon meeting, they don't kill, and don't seek revenge. They're also non-defiant, as they're willing to do what they're told to get their kids back.
You must be an FLDS member !!
This is what the FLDS believes. They use the Book of Mormon, attend the Mormon meeting, they don't kill, and don't seek revenge. They're also non-defiant, as they're willing to do what they're told to get their kids back.
You must be an FLDS member !!
To Fredd | 6:19 p.m. May 25, 2008
"The Americans" were always the approaching American army. Brigham was
tyring to ask the Indians for help when/if the army decided to attack. It did
not mean immigrant wagon trains, which were continually and frequently passing
through SLC.
It is significant that no Indians went south because the Bagley theory (unsupported by any other historian) is that after the meeting the Indians sped south with the message to attack the wagon train. The significance in Turley pointing this out is to refute the Bagley theory as both a logistical impossibility and as a misinterpretation of what "Americans" always meant.
As far as the whole community acting on its own, the historical documents show a growing paranoia from the locals the more interaction they had with the train the longer it stayed in the area. This is why the locals sent a courrier to SLC to ask for guidance.
And as to BY creating the environment, the whole territory was under martial law due to the advancing US Army. Take away the threat of an annhilation by the army, and there is no martial law and no increased paranoia.
The only question is on BY's post-MMM actions, not pre.
It is significant that no Indians went south because the Bagley theory (unsupported by any other historian) is that after the meeting the Indians sped south with the message to attack the wagon train. The significance in Turley pointing this out is to refute the Bagley theory as both a logistical impossibility and as a misinterpretation of what "Americans" always meant.
As far as the whole community acting on its own, the historical documents show a growing paranoia from the locals the more interaction they had with the train the longer it stayed in the area. This is why the locals sent a courrier to SLC to ask for guidance.
And as to BY creating the environment, the whole territory was under martial law due to the advancing US Army. Take away the threat of an annhilation by the army, and there is no martial law and no increased paranoia.
The only question is on BY's post-MMM actions, not pre.
Anonymous | 6:48 p.m. May 25, 2008
EVERYONE NEEDS TO GET LIVES AND TRY TO LIVE LIKE CHRIST!!!!!!! I AM SO SICK OF
DEBATES ON SUBJECTS THAT WE MAY POSSIBLY HAVE NO ANSWER TOO. MOVE ON AND TRY TO
LIVE GOOD LIVES TODAY!
Anonymous | 6:56 p.m. May 25, 2008
I found it odd why this was being brought up agian and then it hit me; the spin
machine is in full order prior to the dvd release of September Dawn. Funny how
this works.
My take | 7:01 p.m. May 25, 2008
No one can approve of this horrible tragedy. I have often wondered how I (or
anyone) might have over-reacted after mob after mob had driven me and my loved
ones out of several homes. If I had to bury family members along the way only to
move over 1000 miles (the hard way)and now to be threatened again? Maybe they
had enough! Doesn't excuse what they did but honestly, what might you or I
have done? I would like to think I would not have been involved but who can say
that unless you had been there?
How Calloused Can You Be??? | 7:24 p.m. May 25, 2008
To LDS in Mississippi. Your statement: "To everyone, whatever camp of
opinion you belong to:
GET OVER IT ALREADY."
It's sad that so many LDS that includes people like you take massacres with such a light attitude, no matter how long ago it happened.
Let me tell you, your prophet Joe Smith, why doesn't the church get over that story already??
Why doesn't the Mormon church stop preaching like a broken record of their pioneer's sufferings and prosecutions.
Get Over It Already !!!
And yes, thank you again for letting us know of your beliefs by your actions.
You and many others here who have commented to get over it, well....
Thank you for letting us see your hearts that takes the huge amount of murdered women, men and children as something that we should just eat and forget.
How calloused in their hearts the Mormons really are. I knew this before, but it's even clearler than ever now.
If this is what you've and other Mormons have becomed from your faith, then I am so extremely grateful that I am not a Mormon.
Oh, man, I don't know how to tell you as to how grateful I am.
GET OVER IT ALREADY."
It's sad that so many LDS that includes people like you take massacres with such a light attitude, no matter how long ago it happened.
Let me tell you, your prophet Joe Smith, why doesn't the church get over that story already??
Why doesn't the Mormon church stop preaching like a broken record of their pioneer's sufferings and prosecutions.
Get Over It Already !!!
And yes, thank you again for letting us know of your beliefs by your actions.
You and many others here who have commented to get over it, well....
Thank you for letting us see your hearts that takes the huge amount of murdered women, men and children as something that we should just eat and forget.
How calloused in their hearts the Mormons really are. I knew this before, but it's even clearler than ever now.
If this is what you've and other Mormons have becomed from your faith, then I am so extremely grateful that I am not a Mormon.
Oh, man, I don't know how to tell you as to how grateful I am.
Mel | 7:30 p.m. May 25, 2008
To: OK to be dumb
What makes you think everyone who posts on here and says Brigham Young had something to do with the Mountain Meadows Massacre, is Not LDS? There are Many LDS, who I know, who think Brigham Young instigated the whole massacre frenzy-- and It's no big deal.
And to: Anonymous, 6:48 pm
The movie September dumb was a bomb! It was not historically correct. It was a Hollywood version of Arkansas people trying to pose as Mormons. We know who the true hillbillies are--DUH!
What makes you think everyone who posts on here and says Brigham Young had something to do with the Mountain Meadows Massacre, is Not LDS? There are Many LDS, who I know, who think Brigham Young instigated the whole massacre frenzy-- and It's no big deal.
And to: Anonymous, 6:48 pm
The movie September dumb was a bomb! It was not historically correct. It was a Hollywood version of Arkansas people trying to pose as Mormons. We know who the true hillbillies are--DUH!
Fair and balanced | 7:57 p.m. May 25, 2008
A fair and balanced view of the massacre is NOT likely to come from the
conclusion of the historian for the LDS church (and I am a member). It would
mean his termination if he came to the alternative conclusion. Other
historians, unaffiliated with our church, have reached "mixed"
conclusions on Young's involvement. We need to realize that this act was
covered up by church leaders after the massacre. Any "evidence", if
there was any, implicating Young, is simply gone now. To make a conclusion that
he was or was not involved is simply not possible to do now. The church would
do best to simply not comment further on this matter. The apology issued last
year was sufficient, based upon the little we do know for sure.
TO EVERYONE | 8:17 p.m. May 25, 2008
1. Confusius say that man with chip on shoulder always think with irrational
and closed mind.
2. Confusius say that antimormon, and/or "intellectual" ex-mormon who lie to self long enough, eventually start to believe it.
3/4 of the people posting here have not even read the article. It's comical!
2. Confusius say that antimormon, and/or "intellectual" ex-mormon who lie to self long enough, eventually start to believe it.
3/4 of the people posting here have not even read the article. It's comical!
Rock throwing | 8:30 p.m. May 25, 2008
It sounds to me like the blame game is going on, on this blog. You were NOT
there and no one else was there including me, so please don't cry me a
stream and tell me you are the only one with a story and an opinion to tell
about the MMM. You are whining about stuff you personally know nothing about. So
take your cry baby story somewhere else. I have heard of your kind before.
People come whining on these blogs like the massacre happened last Friday
afternoon. There is way too much rock throwing going on, on this silly blog.
Desert Rat | 8:35 p.m. May 25, 2008
Oh, so Brigham created the atmosphere that led to the Mountain Meadows Massacre?
How about a few others, namely Martin Van Buren, Jim Bridger, the Sacramento
Bee, etc. etc. etc. Why are so many so intent on discrediting Brigham Young? I
think they all know the answer.
question | 8:37 p.m. May 25, 2008
Given the extermination order was still in place by Mo., and the US Government
was sending troops to fight the "morman rebellion", it has always
puzzled me why every "american" wagon train was not destroyed????
To Cottontop and Good Idea | 8:38 p.m. May 25, 2008
Great comments, both of you. Something I've not read in any of these posts
is any comment about the methods of communication in those days. How would
Brigham Young know that a wagon train from Arkansas was heading toward the Cedar
City area? No one could pick up a phone and tell him, or send him a text
message. And how would he send a message back telling them to attack and kill
the people for no apparent reason? When we are reading and discussion,
conjecturing or whatever, we have to try to see the situation through the eyes
of those who lived it, not through our own eyes of experience. I've not
read much about the MMM, and I would like to read this new book when it comes
out. But I hope the lesson learned by all is to find a way to never repeat such
a thing, however it happened, but to develop love and tolerance instead. When we
fight over religious things, we play right into Satan's hand in his efforts
to keep hatred and discontent growing.
DFINIVINS | 8:43 p.m. May 25, 2008
I am a convert to the LDS church. I am 65 years old and I have seen a little bit
of human history in my day. If any of you know anything about christans, you
should understand that they do not condone murder. You should also remember that
judgement is the lords province. I do not know if BY ordered it or not. But my
gut instincts and knowledge of the church indicates to me that it is unlikely
that a righteous leader of the church would have ordered a murder. There have
been other men that had followers that lead them to suicide and worse. Brigham
Young was NOT one of these. I pray for all those that are quick to judge and are
so positive that BY did this. I hope that the Lord will bless you with the same
love and understanding that you show to someone that lived before you were born.
confession | 9:22 p.m. May 25, 2008
It just so happens that I was the one that ordered the massacre. Now everyone
can get off of Brigham Young's case and move on.
Mark | 9:37 p.m. May 25, 2008
Brigham Young didn't order the massacre, Joseph Smith did. He did it right
after he jumped out of a window of the Salt Lake temple into the Great Salt Lake
and rode the white buffalo to warn the Indians.
The exalted no it all's | 10:14 p.m. May 25, 2008
To everyone,
What makes you so sure that some may not have read the article? I read it a few times just to make sure I had my facts straight before commenting. May I ask you, who are you to make such strong judgments of everyone?
I have to agree completely with-- "Fair and balanced"
What makes you so sure that some may not have read the article? I read it a few times just to make sure I had my facts straight before commenting. May I ask you, who are you to make such strong judgments of everyone?
I have to agree completely with-- "Fair and balanced"
john b | 10:28 p.m. May 25, 2008
I don't know one way or the other but I think that if A mormon and an
antimorman both told you that $1.00 was 100cents you would say no its not its
paper with cloth fiber in it Or in other words you would not agree if you knew
the other was right
Ex | 10:28 p.m. May 25, 2008
Of course Brigham Young ordered it. Nice attempt at rewriting history though.
Vegas Ed | 10:51 p.m. May 25, 2008
Come on people, we ALL know whose fault it is. It's George Bush's
fault. Everything is.
Anonymous | 11:10 p.m. May 25, 2008
It is a sad thing when people today are being judged and having to apoligize for
what someone did 165 years ago. I know they say it's because the LDS people
follow a murderer, etc. Does anyone who says that realize just how many people
throughout time have died for the sake of religion? The fact is, none of us were
there. They can read all the archives they want, and it doesn't really give
us the truth. He may or may not have been involved. We don't know. If he
was may he pay for it by a much higher power than us, if he didn't then so
be it. What I do know, is none of us living today had anything to do with it.
Nothing. I suppose all white people should apologize for the rest of their lives
to the black people, for what happened to their ancestors which was also an
abomination against mankind. All the Germans should apologize to the Jews, for
the rest of their lives. It happened, get over it. We can't change a thing.
Let's worry about Bin Laden folks. MMM should not have happened!
to Brigham Nephi Moses | 11:10 p.m. May 25, 2008
It takes a little more time than some are willing to invest to understand the
why of a Nephi or a Moses, but one needs to understand those events clearly
before one can see why they have a totally different context from our current
topic. Without a solid, correctly quoted point of reference we are comparing
apples to tomatoes, and simply sharing a color doesn't make them the same.
We are left where Joseph Smith was forced to begin, in a strife of words and a
contest about opinions. We deserve better.
Evidence | 11:11 p.m. May 25, 2008
I find it interesting that those here saying BY ordered the massacre do so by
simple assertion, while at least a few of those who think he likely did not
offer evidence to back it up with known historical evidence.
The more debatable question surrounds the possible post-massacre obstruction of justice.
In Jacob Hamblin's biography, he notes that after Governer Cumming was installed in 1858, he (Hamblin) and BY went to Cumming to lay out what they knew about the massacre (which was JD Lee's version, ie, still inaccurate). Cumming had instituted widespread amnesty for any Mormon offenses, real or imagined, and had no interest in hearing details of the massacre. He wanted a fresh start. I wonder what effect this had on BY's attitude toward resolving the massacre and bringing the perpetrators to justice? It seems he was all too willing to comply with Cummings' wishes, and when the massacre was brought up later by Cradelbaugh and others, dug his heels in.
The more debatable question surrounds the possible post-massacre obstruction of justice.
In Jacob Hamblin's biography, he notes that after Governer Cumming was installed in 1858, he (Hamblin) and BY went to Cumming to lay out what they knew about the massacre (which was JD Lee's version, ie, still inaccurate). Cumming had instituted widespread amnesty for any Mormon offenses, real or imagined, and had no interest in hearing details of the massacre. He wanted a fresh start. I wonder what effect this had on BY's attitude toward resolving the massacre and bringing the perpetrators to justice? It seems he was all too willing to comply with Cummings' wishes, and when the massacre was brought up later by Cradelbaugh and others, dug his heels in.
KB | 12:01 a.m. May 26, 2008
A-men to GOOD IDEA. Let us learn what we can and move on. Let us try to be
better and more Christlike
Kyle from AZ | 12:03 a.m. May 26, 2008
Time to move on, you don't hear the mormons going back and trying to lynch
those who committed multitudes of atrocities against their people. Seems the
ones holding the grudges come from the other side.
Re: DFINIVINS | 12:07 a.m. May 26, 2008
Your words: "I pray for all those that are quick to judge and are so
positive that BY did this. I hope that the Lord will bless you with the same
love and understanding that you show to someone that lived before you were
born."
Thank you for the consideration of your prayers.
I would like to offer a thought that, the prayer would actually be more beneficial if it were directed to save Brigham for his acts, which, you are right, the Lord will take care of in His own way.
But also a special prayer for those who followed him, and continues to follow him.
Unlike some who mentioned that the leader might do wrong, but the church is still true, has sadly forgotten, if the leader does wrong, will God allow His people to be led by unrighteous men? Can the spirit of God dwell in unrighteous hearts and have that man lead God's will.
I thought the teachings of Mormonism is that the spirit leaves when unrighteousness occurs, and hence, how can a leader lead his followers to righteousness when the spirit is not in him?
So, pray for yourselves.
You're going to need it.
Thank you for the consideration of your prayers.
I would like to offer a thought that, the prayer would actually be more beneficial if it were directed to save Brigham for his acts, which, you are right, the Lord will take care of in His own way.
But also a special prayer for those who followed him, and continues to follow him.
Unlike some who mentioned that the leader might do wrong, but the church is still true, has sadly forgotten, if the leader does wrong, will God allow His people to be led by unrighteous men? Can the spirit of God dwell in unrighteous hearts and have that man lead God's will.
I thought the teachings of Mormonism is that the spirit leaves when unrighteousness occurs, and hence, how can a leader lead his followers to righteousness when the spirit is not in him?
So, pray for yourselves.
You're going to need it.
To john b..... | 12:10 a.m. May 26, 2008
"I don't know one way or the other but I think that if A mormon and an
antimorman both told you that $1.00 was 100cents you would say no its not its
paper with cloth fiber in it Or in other words you would not agree if you knew
the other was right."
I don't agree with that.
Why would I say it's paper with cloth fiber, when the truth of the matter is that it's nothing more than cotton and shredded wood, with ink added.
I don't agree with that.
Why would I say it's paper with cloth fiber, when the truth of the matter is that it's nothing more than cotton and shredded wood, with ink added.
Mike Ridgway | 12:29 a.m. May 26, 2008
I am an active, lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints. While I do not claim to know whether Brigham Young did or did not order
the killing of these 120 people, what seems inescapable is the conclusion that
Brigham Young had to have been involved in the cover-up that protected scores of
men from being prosecuted for their part in these unjustified murders. That
cover-up contradicts everything I have been taught and everything I believe
about our obligations as citizens to "step forward to bring offenders
against good laws to punishment." Here is where I learned it:
The Doctrine and Convenants (scripture of the LDS Church), Section 134 verse-8:
"We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense; that murder, treason, robbery, theft, and the breach of the general peace, IN ALL RESPECTS, should be punished according to their criminality and their tendency to evil among men, by the laws of that government in which the offense is committed; and for the public peace and tranquility ALL MEN SHOULD STEP FORWARD and use their ability in bringing offenders against good laws to punishment." August 17, 1835.
The Doctrine and Convenants (scripture of the LDS Church), Section 134 verse-8:
"We believe that the commission of crime should be punished according to the nature of the offense; that murder, treason, robbery, theft, and the breach of the general peace, IN ALL RESPECTS, should be punished according to their criminality and their tendency to evil among men, by the laws of that government in which the offense is committed; and for the public peace and tranquility ALL MEN SHOULD STEP FORWARD and use their ability in bringing offenders against good laws to punishment." August 17, 1835.
Background Knowledge | 12:36 a.m. May 26, 2008
I actually know the man who is writing the book.
He also wrote a book about the Hoffman bombings. He has a law degree and is really one of the brighter people that I have ever met. Those that suggest that he would possibly lose his job if he reported the truth don't realize that it wouldn't be difficult for him to find another job.
I have also had religious classes that openly discuss the faults that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other church leaders have had. "Non-members and ex or inactive members" please realize that we know that church leaders are imperfect. It really has to be hard to be in a posistion of authority because everything you do wrong is magnified to the utmost degree.
Non-members please read and study the doctrine of the church before you denounce a faith that you no nothing or little about. I have talked to a lot of people that have changed their minds about Mormons after they really learn what we believe. Most of these people did want to be baptized but they stopped cursing us out on the streets.
He also wrote a book about the Hoffman bombings. He has a law degree and is really one of the brighter people that I have ever met. Those that suggest that he would possibly lose his job if he reported the truth don't realize that it wouldn't be difficult for him to find another job.
I have also had religious classes that openly discuss the faults that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and other church leaders have had. "Non-members and ex or inactive members" please realize that we know that church leaders are imperfect. It really has to be hard to be in a posistion of authority because everything you do wrong is magnified to the utmost degree.
Non-members please read and study the doctrine of the church before you denounce a faith that you no nothing or little about. I have talked to a lot of people that have changed their minds about Mormons after they really learn what we believe. Most of these people did want to be baptized but they stopped cursing us out on the streets.
My point of view | 1:43 a.m. May 26, 2008
Don't confuse me with facts (the fact that there is no evidence). I
don't need facts and I don't need evidence. What I need is for B.Y. to
be guilty so I can justify my hatred.
Re: Background Knowledge | 3:38 a.m. May 26, 2008
You are so right! Peter denied he even knew Christ 3 times. If we can forgive
Peter for being a human being, why can't we forgive Joseph Smith, Brigham
Young or any other leader for being human beings too? I wonder if J.S. or B.Y.
had denied Christ, if anyone would have ever forgiven them? It's like there
are some who need to believe the worst about these men because somehow, it
justifies their anger toward the church.
What a waste of time... | 4:27 a.m. May 26, 2008
So what!!!
What happened, happened. Right or wrong it happened.
If they were here to defend themselves, then we'd have something to talk about, wouldn't we?
Move forward and do the right thing. How can a people get so caught up in the past, unless they are learning in a Christlike way to understand and forgive only.
He said, He did, Whatever>
What happened, happened. Right or wrong it happened.
If they were here to defend themselves, then we'd have something to talk about, wouldn't we?
Move forward and do the right thing. How can a people get so caught up in the past, unless they are learning in a Christlike way to understand and forgive only.
He said, He did, Whatever>
AJArizona | 8:47 a.m. May 26, 2008
Actual Historians with advanced degreees, Phd's etc., following scholarly
methodology, have concluded that Brighan Young did not give the orders for this
massacre.
These men are not lightweghts or pseudo historians like Will Bagley and Sandra Tanner. They don't sit around in their basements, at a keyboard in their underwear, wondering how they can bring down the LDS Church, today.
They are serious men, who have put their professional reputations on the line. Their work is there for the world to see and critique, and it is why, among actual Historians, they are well respected.
They are scholars, who have the "credentials" to make this sort of analysis'. Bagley's and Tanners assertions were refuted long ago and their bias' were exposed for all to see.
The great movie last summer, which Bagley and Tanner consulted on, tanked at the box office.
The 11 million dollar anti-Mormon dribble, needed to make 20 million to break even. To this day, it has made a whopping 1.5 million.
Why? Because people know trash when they see it.
Read it and reap Anti's, your 160 year old quest to implicate Brother Brigham, has hit another brick wall.
Moroni 10:3-5
ajarizona
These men are not lightweghts or pseudo historians like Will Bagley and Sandra Tanner. They don't sit around in their basements, at a keyboard in their underwear, wondering how they can bring down the LDS Church, today.
They are serious men, who have put their professional reputations on the line. Their work is there for the world to see and critique, and it is why, among actual Historians, they are well respected.
They are scholars, who have the "credentials" to make this sort of analysis'. Bagley's and Tanners assertions were refuted long ago and their bias' were exposed for all to see.
The great movie last summer, which Bagley and Tanner consulted on, tanked at the box office.
The 11 million dollar anti-Mormon dribble, needed to make 20 million to break even. To this day, it has made a whopping 1.5 million.
Why? Because people know trash when they see it.
Read it and reap Anti's, your 160 year old quest to implicate Brother Brigham, has hit another brick wall.
Moroni 10:3-5
ajarizona
Non-believer | 8:47 a.m. May 26, 2008
We have come a long way. For years the Church denied any involvment in the MMM.
The fact that they gave owned up to it in recent years is a big step forward
regardless of what happened. Oh and by the way, given the difficulty of
communication, I doubt word would have gone to BY and come back to the local
leaders in time to impact their decisions. I don't care what the stress of
the time was, killing children was inexcusable
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