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LDS Church historian concludes Brigham Young did not order 1857 massacre
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Yeah Sure | 6:26 p.m. May 24, 2008
So, the Church hired one of its own to determine if one of its own ordered an
act of brutality and found insufficient evidence -- way to go LDS!
Cougar | 6:34 p.m. May 24, 2008
Well that's a surprise!!!
matrix | 7:20 p.m. May 24, 2008
lololol you both are soo funny. What you are saying is that the only out
come that you would find acceptable and believe is one of "guilt" by
brigham young??
I'm not even a Mormon. active or jack, but i recognize that there are different possablities than just guilt.
What did your research show? and can you share it with the community to discredit this story?
If so I will listen with open ears and mind. Until that time, this looks like the best report on the subject.
Oh by the way they did say that it was thier oppinion that there was'nt enough evidence to say that he did or did not order it.
Inconclusive but wieghing against the oppinion that he (brigham) did order the massacre. By deduction, there is still that possiblity,
which leaves the door open even in thier minds (although slightly ajar). Do your scholarly best and prove them wrong. We all (the christian community) are is search of the truth. "for it shall set us free"
I'm not even a Mormon. active or jack, but i recognize that there are different possablities than just guilt.
What did your research show? and can you share it with the community to discredit this story?
If so I will listen with open ears and mind. Until that time, this looks like the best report on the subject.
Oh by the way they did say that it was thier oppinion that there was'nt enough evidence to say that he did or did not order it.
Inconclusive but wieghing against the oppinion that he (brigham) did order the massacre. By deduction, there is still that possiblity,
which leaves the door open even in thier minds (although slightly ajar). Do your scholarly best and prove them wrong. We all (the christian community) are is search of the truth. "for it shall set us free"
Comments continue below
Historian | 7:49 p.m. May 24, 2008
Another case of the powerful attempting to rewrite history. Old Brigham ordered
the attack, and everyone knows it.
Pravda | 7:49 p.m. May 24, 2008
Matrix, did you skip reading the second paragraph in the article, a direct
quote, second sentence. To wit:
... on Saturday his conclusion, "based on the totality of evidence, is that Brigham Young did not order the massacre."
You say you will listen with open ears and mind, however it appears you wear blinders. Guess it is true that some hear(see) what they want to hear (see) and disregard the rest.
Do your scholarly best to refute the quoted expert.
... on Saturday his conclusion, "based on the totality of evidence, is that Brigham Young did not order the massacre."
You say you will listen with open ears and mind, however it appears you wear blinders. Guess it is true that some hear(see) what they want to hear (see) and disregard the rest.
Do your scholarly best to refute the quoted expert.
LdG | 7:59 p.m. May 24, 2008
Come now, Historian, don't say completely idiotic things without backing
them up.
This is lunacy! | 8:00 p.m. May 24, 2008
Hey! No one in their right mind would ever believe Brigham Young had nothing to
do with the Mountain Meadows Massacre. This is an total insult, a total lie, and
to blame only faithful LDS members who were involved in the massacre, and most
of them did not run and hide from the fact of the matter. Just because Brigham
Young was not right at the massacre, and was the president of the LDS church
makes him NO LESS guilty then all the rest of the LDS Mormon members. That
really burns me up! That is SO COWARDLY! Many of those members in southern Utah
gave everything they owned to the church. Now the church turns it's back on
those pioneer members and lets them take the complete blame. SHAME ON THE SO
CALLED RESEARCHER! Sounds to me like a mafia group.
Anonymous | 8:07 p.m. May 24, 2008
What a coincidence! You wouldn't expect a MORMON historian to say that
there actually is evidence to the contrary.
BREAK TIME! | 8:17 p.m. May 24, 2008
This is a lie! I am so appalled! There are others who have written diaries that
say differently. Shame on the LDS church. Sounds like we are headed in the same
direction as the FLDS liars.
Anonymous | 8:21 p.m. May 24, 2008
In secular news;there is insufficient evidence to say that Joseph Smith &
the church is true & ample evidence that it's not!
Next week- church leaders find that Mark Hoffman never existed.
Next week- church leaders find that Mark Hoffman never existed.
Blame not the servants | 8:28 p.m. May 24, 2008
I have studied and read all the history I could find on the MMM, and Brigham
Young most definitely ordered the Massacre. Those faithful LDS member of
Southern Utah did not think this up all by themselves. This was Brigham
Young's paranoia. John D Lee was Brigham Young's adopted and faithful
servant, and would have done anything Brigham had of asked him to do, as would
have all the rest of the Southern Utah LDS pioneers. I don't think it is
fair to mark the rest without marking President Brigham Young as well.
Truth | 8:28 p.m. May 24, 2008
I'm starting to think I should waste less time arguing on here. You people
don't get anything straight.
Is it a crime now that the LDS holds in it's possession evidence? People attack the church saying that one of it's OWN historians with it's OWN evidence proving it is obviously false.
The early church members looking for shelter came to Utah. They were hated by many and most people tried to falsify things relating to the LDS church and many people tried to cover up ANYTHING good from the church. Members collected items and records partly because of revelation from Joseph to do so but also because no one else at that time cared enough for 'Mormons' to keep their history straight or at all anyway. So the church had good reason then, and what's wrong with keeping it now?
If you want to learn about my grandfather do you ask the man who hated him or do you ask me? I probably have his journal and my dad knew him better than the man who hated him...
It's a VERY logical thing for the Church to keep records and defend against any attack, especially a stupid/false one like this.
Is it a crime now that the LDS holds in it's possession evidence? People attack the church saying that one of it's OWN historians with it's OWN evidence proving it is obviously false.
The early church members looking for shelter came to Utah. They were hated by many and most people tried to falsify things relating to the LDS church and many people tried to cover up ANYTHING good from the church. Members collected items and records partly because of revelation from Joseph to do so but also because no one else at that time cared enough for 'Mormons' to keep their history straight or at all anyway. So the church had good reason then, and what's wrong with keeping it now?
If you want to learn about my grandfather do you ask the man who hated him or do you ask me? I probably have his journal and my dad knew him better than the man who hated him...
It's a VERY logical thing for the Church to keep records and defend against any attack, especially a stupid/false one like this.
CTN | 8:35 p.m. May 24, 2008
I too reject the conclusion of this historian. Everyone knows that a church
historian can't possibly have any integrity and that only a good
anti-mormon historian is capable of conclusions based on unbiased truth.
I also reject the so called evidence because it doesn't support the conclusion I prefer. After all, TV tells me that all tragedies can be traced to some high level of authority involved in some grand conspiracy. TV never lies people, therefore Brigham Young must be guilty!
I also reject the so called evidence because it doesn't support the conclusion I prefer. After all, TV tells me that all tragedies can be traced to some high level of authority involved in some grand conspiracy. TV never lies people, therefore Brigham Young must be guilty!
matrix | 8:37 p.m. May 24, 2008
Pravda...lol you are so funny....
(I love watching you mormons and non mormons go the rounds... are you a non or anti or exed mormon??)
both side should be fair... and none of you here are.. this is great a non-mormon deffending the mormons @ killing non-mormons I LOVE IT!!!
....you must have skipped the first paragraph just to zero in on the second one... haha... my every blinded by hate friend read:
"There is insufficient evidence to say former LDS Church President Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and ample evidence that says he did not, according to the church's assistant historian."
read what is said and interpret. He did not say that there was no evidence... "just insufficient evidence" (that means that there was evidence.. in case you were wondering)
and more or sufficient,(that's what ample means) evidence that says he did not. He did not say for sure or beyond a shadow of a doubt.
more like he meant beyond a reasonable doubt or even beyond a preponderance of the evidence.
lol your turn
sincerely,
your brother in christ matrix
(I love watching you mormons and non mormons go the rounds... are you a non or anti or exed mormon??)
both side should be fair... and none of you here are.. this is great a non-mormon deffending the mormons @ killing non-mormons I LOVE IT!!!
....you must have skipped the first paragraph just to zero in on the second one... haha... my every blinded by hate friend read:
"There is insufficient evidence to say former LDS Church President Brigham Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and ample evidence that says he did not, according to the church's assistant historian."
read what is said and interpret. He did not say that there was no evidence... "just insufficient evidence" (that means that there was evidence.. in case you were wondering)
and more or sufficient,(that's what ample means) evidence that says he did not. He did not say for sure or beyond a shadow of a doubt.
more like he meant beyond a reasonable doubt or even beyond a preponderance of the evidence.
lol your turn
sincerely,
your brother in christ matrix
To Historian: | 8:36 p.m. May 24, 2008
You are nothing EVEN CLOSE to a historian.
The powerful? It isn't like there are a lot of people against them, good reason to put a lot of effort into DEFENDING yourself. How are they rewriting history by presenting evidence which cannot be falsified and stating that there is no for certain fact but that there is more evidence on one side for the time being... how is that forcing history to be rewritten?
Oh and the whole bit about everyone 'knowing it' is as un-fact/historian/truth-seeking as you could have possibly made it.
I KNOW that Brigham didn't do it simply because NOTHING in his life at any other point could reference this type of decision when ALL others by him and the church leadership at the time don't have any relationship to this type of behavior.
The only purpose for pushing this event at this day and age with out ANY WHERE NEAR enough evidence to prove anything is ONLY to try to disprove the LDS church as a true church or only to hurt the church.
I'm not saying this in ignorance; I only state that without sufficient evidence this is only an attack.
Shame on anti-thinking.
The powerful? It isn't like there are a lot of people against them, good reason to put a lot of effort into DEFENDING yourself. How are they rewriting history by presenting evidence which cannot be falsified and stating that there is no for certain fact but that there is more evidence on one side for the time being... how is that forcing history to be rewritten?
Oh and the whole bit about everyone 'knowing it' is as un-fact/historian/truth-seeking as you could have possibly made it.
I KNOW that Brigham didn't do it simply because NOTHING in his life at any other point could reference this type of decision when ALL others by him and the church leadership at the time don't have any relationship to this type of behavior.
The only purpose for pushing this event at this day and age with out ANY WHERE NEAR enough evidence to prove anything is ONLY to try to disprove the LDS church as a true church or only to hurt the church.
I'm not saying this in ignorance; I only state that without sufficient evidence this is only an attack.
Shame on anti-thinking.
Anonymous | 8:48 p.m. May 24, 2008
This was no Salem witch hunt! Give me a break!
Here you go: | 8:49 p.m. May 24, 2008
Google "Wife No. 19" and you'll get the shock of your life.
Story re-told | 8:55 p.m. May 24, 2008
I am a very old man and my great grandfather remembered the Massacre. He always
said Brigham Young ordered the massacre. That those Mormon men would do anything
Brother Brigham Would want them to do. It's not good to blame the faithful
servants without blaming the leader.
Unbiased History? | 9:01 p.m. May 24, 2008
You mean like the ad in the Trib years ago searching for someone to write the
MMM history such that it would implicate Brigham Young, to which Will Bagley
replied, auditioned, and won the all-expensed paid job? You mean THAT kind of
unbiased history?
Bagley himself admits his own evidence, interpreted in the most generous way in his favor, is still only circumstantial. I've read his so-called "damning evidence" (Huntington journal), and it is weak at best. Mulitiple other interpretations are possible and much more likely given the full body and string of evidence.
The first paragaph of the article states the reality of the evidence very accurately and succinctly. Unfortunately, for a certain audience, anything but a guilty verdict for BY will be unsatisfactory. For those people, the absence of evidence seems to be the best evidence of all. Such hand wringing does injustice to MMM victims' memory.
Bagley himself admits his own evidence, interpreted in the most generous way in his favor, is still only circumstantial. I've read his so-called "damning evidence" (Huntington journal), and it is weak at best. Mulitiple other interpretations are possible and much more likely given the full body and string of evidence.
The first paragaph of the article states the reality of the evidence very accurately and succinctly. Unfortunately, for a certain audience, anything but a guilty verdict for BY will be unsatisfactory. For those people, the absence of evidence seems to be the best evidence of all. Such hand wringing does injustice to MMM victims' memory.
To Here you go: | 9:06 p.m. May 24, 2008
Google "Sounding Brass" to see how reliable Ann Eliza Webb Dee Young
Denning's history is, if she could ever get it straight. 19th century
melodrama at its worst.
Anonymous | 9:07 p.m. May 24, 2008
Read John D. Lees confession. judge for yourself.
Your Story re-told | 9:10 p.m. May 24, 2008
Would they not have done the massacre had they heard Brigham order them to leave
the immigrants alone? Why send a courrier to SLC to find out BY's opinion
on it if they already had the order and were only mindless sycophant drones?
Instead, they went forward with it and when the courrier returned with BY's
response to let the train pass, the deed was already done.
Wow | 9:13 p.m. May 24, 2008
What a bunch of idiotic conspiracy theorists. You all make me sick. It's
a waste of time to even attempt civil and intelligent dialogue: you've all
made up your minds, and no amount of research by ANYONE will suffice if it
doesn't align with your "unbiased" opinions. But of course you
all have "inside" information that makes you right no matter what.
Johnson | 9:16 p.m. May 24, 2008
Brigham sent a fast rider to tell the local leaders to let the wagons pass, but
he got there too late. The deed had already been done. That's about all
there is to it. Brigham didn't order it. He tried to stop it.
James | 9:30 p.m. May 24, 2008
Unless you are one who had family participated the MMM-- You may not know the
truth. I know a bit more having a family member who did participate, and his
devoted friend Brigham Young knew what what he was doing and and did ordered the
massacre. He had close friends in Southern Utah.
The Church would benefit if true | 9:30 p.m. May 24, 2008
To those who believe that an LDS Historian working for the Church couldn't
be unbiased in reporting the full story you are seriously mistaken because that
would be like saying that American Historians working for a State University
couldn't be unbiased in writing about American History.
We routinely see articles from scholarly sources including the LDS Church that doesn't reflect positively on the hurch and the same is true of other religions, and governments when they write about themselves. For example, you don't see the Catholic Church trying to deny the Inquisition.
The basic tenent of a Historian is that the facts are the only thing that matter and even if Brigham Young did order the massacre it would be a historical fact that we would want to know so we could better understand Brigham Young and early Mormons.
Speaking as a historian, it would be interesting if Brigham Young did order this massacre but that's just my opinion since it would show the doctrinal truth that prophets are human and make mistakes is valid but unforunately we have no evidence that he did order the massacre yet there is no proof but the Church would benefit if it was.
We routinely see articles from scholarly sources including the LDS Church that doesn't reflect positively on the hurch and the same is true of other religions, and governments when they write about themselves. For example, you don't see the Catholic Church trying to deny the Inquisition.
The basic tenent of a Historian is that the facts are the only thing that matter and even if Brigham Young did order the massacre it would be a historical fact that we would want to know so we could better understand Brigham Young and early Mormons.
Speaking as a historian, it would be interesting if Brigham Young did order this massacre but that's just my opinion since it would show the doctrinal truth that prophets are human and make mistakes is valid but unforunately we have no evidence that he did order the massacre yet there is no proof but the Church would benefit if it was.
If everyone shares the blame | 9:34 p.m. May 24, 2008
"This is Lunacy" at 8:00 p.m. said "Just because Brigham Young
was not right at the massacre, and was the president of the LDS church makes him
NO LESS guilty then all the rest of the LDS Mormon members."
And I now call on all Catholics to share blame for the inquest, all Christians to share blame for the crusades, and all Baptists to share blame for Hauns Mill, and all Mormons to share blame for Mountains Meadow. And don�t forget President Theodore Roosevelt and the Moro crater, let's all share that as Americans.
Now that the blame is shared, what�s next?
And I now call on all Catholics to share blame for the inquest, all Christians to share blame for the crusades, and all Baptists to share blame for Hauns Mill, and all Mormons to share blame for Mountains Meadow. And don�t forget President Theodore Roosevelt and the Moro crater, let's all share that as Americans.
Now that the blame is shared, what�s next?
Anonymous | 9:42 p.m. May 24, 2008
Why would you all think that the LDS church is insisting on covering its tracks
in this matter when there's little to no proof that they are? I've
read the "evidence" too, and what I see was a bunch of scared,
impetuous people who, rather than have the patience to wait for guidance, jumped
the gun and acted on their own impulse. There are several statements by those
involved that say that exact thing, if you'd bother to look them up instead
of instantly latching onto any criticism of the church you can find.
The church has never tried to cover it up when the church leaders break the law. We all know that David went from Prophet to murderer. Solomon fell from grace because of his greed. Paul, before his conversion, assisted men who were stoning another to death. Church leaders are human, they make mistakes sometimes. If the mistakes are more than minor, the Lord will take care of it and the man in question will be removed from his office. Don't we have more faith in His guidance than that?
The church has never tried to cover it up when the church leaders break the law. We all know that David went from Prophet to murderer. Solomon fell from grace because of his greed. Paul, before his conversion, assisted men who were stoning another to death. Church leaders are human, they make mistakes sometimes. If the mistakes are more than minor, the Lord will take care of it and the man in question will be removed from his office. Don't we have more faith in His guidance than that?
jlbl | 9:51 p.m. May 24, 2008
Read the book when it is published. Look up the sources. Think. After you do all
that, you are entitled to mouth off all you want. In the meantime, it is
probably best to listen rather talk.
Blame shared | 9:51 p.m. May 24, 2008
THESE PEOPLE SHOULD ALL SHARE THE BLAME IF THEY HELP CREATE THE PROBLEM>
AFTER ALL COWARDS ARE NOT A VERY PRETTY SIGHT. And I now call on all Catholics
to share blame for the inquest, all Christians to share blame for the crusades,
and all Baptists to share blame for Hauns Mill, and all Mormons to share blame
for Mountains Meadow. And don�t forget President Theodore
Roosevelt and the Moro crater, let's all share that as Americans.
Now that the blame is shared, what�s next? BLAME YOURSELF FOR GETTING SO ANGRY >:o(
Now that the blame is shared, what�s next? BLAME YOURSELF FOR GETTING SO ANGRY >:o(
Anonymous | 9:54 p.m. May 24, 2008
There is insufficient evidence over 100 years on to convict Brigham Young of
such an offense. Those who wish to believe that he is guilty shall believe what
they want.
In the end, the truth will be made knows when we are all dead all evidence is available, untainted by opinions and desires for revenge, unless of course you believe that death ends all. And if death ends all, all involved are dead and it doesn't matter.
If death doesn't end all, then we'll meet those involved and better understand what actually happened.
In the end, the truth will be made knows when we are all dead all evidence is available, untainted by opinions and desires for revenge, unless of course you believe that death ends all. And if death ends all, all involved are dead and it doesn't matter.
If death doesn't end all, then we'll meet those involved and better understand what actually happened.
Blame shared | 9:56 p.m. May 24, 2008
I am not angry, just noting the fact "Blame shared|9:51 p.m." that
your ancestors religious or social group also caused death and mayhem. I blame
you for reading anger into my peaceful, get a life, and move on comment.
Get over it people! | 9:56 p.m. May 24, 2008
My goodness, there is not any proof either way, I just read a book about this
and I wonder how deep this went into the church. I will probably never know, if
indeed Brigham Young did order this or hint to doing this, he will account for
it. What happened was a terrible thing, but what's worse is to still
harbor anger and hatred over it, that is what is really wrong. These people
suffered, but they are not suffering now, let them rest in peace and let us live
in harmony. One thing that causes me to wonder is the detailed information from
children about the age of five, my daughter was 11 when her father died and she
can't remember much about him. I am sorry, but it amazed me that five year
old children could recognize their mothers jewelry.
There are five year old children in Texas that would not be able to tell you who their mother and father are. So history can be as accurate as what is there, thank heavens God has the complete story and just like our time, people will get away with murder, but not when they meet their maker.
There are five year old children in Texas that would not be able to tell you who their mother and father are. So history can be as accurate as what is there, thank heavens God has the complete story and just like our time, people will get away with murder, but not when they meet their maker.
Mary | 10:02 p.m. May 24, 2008
Can you blame the saints? They had been persecuted, murdered, driven out and
robbed of their possessions by the mobs. The mobs murdered their leader. They
only sought peace in the deserts of the southwest. What they did was wrong, but
an honest person, looking at all the evidence would understand their hysteria. I
am a direct descendant of these people and I know the truth. Brigham Young did
not order this, he tried to stop it. Maybe all of you should do some research
before you condem an innocent man. Remember, "Thou shalt bare false witness
against they neighbor."
Convert | 10:04 p.m. May 24, 2008
re: Jlbl
This is what these D-N posts are all about, and for one to voice ones opinion. My opinion is the Brigham Young knew and helped plan the massacre. It doesn't make him any less of a person. It's always better to look like a hero even if he made a mistake then make him look like a coward. I have done a lot of reading and research on the subject as has anyone on here.
This is what these D-N posts are all about, and for one to voice ones opinion. My opinion is the Brigham Young knew and helped plan the massacre. It doesn't make him any less of a person. It's always better to look like a hero even if he made a mistake then make him look like a coward. I have done a lot of reading and research on the subject as has anyone on here.
To Annonymous 9:07pm | 10:06 p.m. May 24, 2008
Regarding Lee's confessions, let's all be aware that this
"confession" is the only thing he ever wrote that was not in his own
hand, and gave his biographer Mr. Beadle, a noted hater of Brigham Young, a free
hand to "fix it up" to make it sell better. Compare the original
version to the updated version later on and you will see even more changes.
Lee's testimony would be shocking enough without Beadle's and others' subsequent "improvements".
Lee's testimony would be shocking enough without Beadle's and others' subsequent "improvements".
The Judge | 10:22 p.m. May 24, 2008
It should really be difficult for us today to understand the times of the wild
west 150 years ago, but we are so good at judging, aren't we?
If anyone would accept the truth here they would know that persistent news was discovered weekly in Sacramento newspapers calling for the annihilation of all Mormons across the earth. Then frightening word arrives on horseback to the effect that an army was marching to Utah Territory "to scalp old Brigham", "massacre Mormon leaders", and "drive the hated Mormons from their homes". People were naturally scared. Just 10 years earlier these Mormon settlers had traveled 2000 miles to escape such aggressions. With all this in mind, consider watching as a group of unsympathetic outsiders from a hostile border state to Missouri passes through your scanty fortifications. They are headed to this same California that wants the Mormons extinct. They send for direction, but the group is leaving before word arrives. They panic. They try to stall them, but some get killed. Now they have to cover tracks.
This is the saddest tale of the old west, but please learn from their mistakes. STOP WITH THE HATRED. WE DON"T NEED IT ANYMORE.
If anyone would accept the truth here they would know that persistent news was discovered weekly in Sacramento newspapers calling for the annihilation of all Mormons across the earth. Then frightening word arrives on horseback to the effect that an army was marching to Utah Territory "to scalp old Brigham", "massacre Mormon leaders", and "drive the hated Mormons from their homes". People were naturally scared. Just 10 years earlier these Mormon settlers had traveled 2000 miles to escape such aggressions. With all this in mind, consider watching as a group of unsympathetic outsiders from a hostile border state to Missouri passes through your scanty fortifications. They are headed to this same California that wants the Mormons extinct. They send for direction, but the group is leaving before word arrives. They panic. They try to stall them, but some get killed. Now they have to cover tracks.
This is the saddest tale of the old west, but please learn from their mistakes. STOP WITH THE HATRED. WE DON"T NEED IT ANYMORE.
Huh? | 10:26 p.m. May 24, 2008
To Blame Shared 9:56 pm, Who are you talking to? Your comment did not make
sense to me. I am not a descendant of Brigham Young are You? But I have done a
tremendous amount of study and reading on the incident.
Janet | 10:37 p.m. May 24, 2008
Once there were some early members of the LDS church who thought and claimed
Brigham Young was a false Prophet, because of the Mountain Meadow Massacre.
However, it makes no difference to me. I don't go to church because of
Brigham Young. I go to church because I believe President Hinckley was, and
Pres. Monson are our prophets of today. So what if Brigham ordered the massacre?
It doesn't affect any of us living today. He was just a ordinary man and
made mistakes like everyone else living on this earth.
Blame Shared | 10:41 p.m. May 24, 2008
To 9:56 pm
Do you mind getting your own posting name and not using mine, so that people wont confuse me with YOU.
Do you mind getting your own posting name and not using mine, so that people wont confuse me with YOU.
look at today | 11:07 p.m. May 24, 2008
I see no way to settle this controversy. People believe what they want to
believe. I do not see any evidence of strange behaviors in the past by observing
church leaders today or of the past 50 years of my life.
Just read the New Testament and early Christian era history and see how Christ and the early Christians were treated - as a demonic cult with barbaric practices, false accusations and injustices.
Just read the New Testament and early Christian era history and see how Christ and the early Christians were treated - as a demonic cult with barbaric practices, false accusations and injustices.
I am an expert | 11:18 p.m. May 24, 2008
I have an ancestor who was killed at MMM before his son was born, and being
quite old I have heard the story first hand from my great grand-father who knew
the neice of a pioneer immigrant that saw Brigham Young on the streets of Nauvoo
and I eat cherrios for additional intellectual capacity and I know that Brigham
Young ordered the massacre and then ordered the veal. Now that I have spoken,
the science is settled.
Now ask me about global warming!
Sure am enjoying all you so called experts out there!
Now ask me about global warming!
Sure am enjoying all you so called experts out there!
Ridiculous... | 11:54 p.m. May 24, 2008
Even if Christ himself came down from heaven and declared on top of the highest
mountain that Brigham Young was innocent there are those who still would not
admit it.
This is really quite silly. Those of you who harbor angst against the church will find anyway of doing so whether it be the MMM or a meriad of other things you can wallow in the mire in. Fortunately for me, life will go on.
Personally (and really that's what it all boils down to, our personal belief) my testimony is based on Christ, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the divinity of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost. Whether or not a leader or group or person acted in a certain way has no bearing on that. Human fallacy will never cease nor am I in a position to condemn anyone, especially Brigham Young.
I truly believe that there is inefficient evidence to show Brigham Young did or didn't do it. If there was definitive, conclusive, irrefutable evidence, it would have been brought forth by now (not legend or heresay passed from one person to another).
This is really quite silly. Those of you who harbor angst against the church will find anyway of doing so whether it be the MMM or a meriad of other things you can wallow in the mire in. Fortunately for me, life will go on.
Personally (and really that's what it all boils down to, our personal belief) my testimony is based on Christ, the Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the divinity of the Restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ through the power of the Holy Ghost. Whether or not a leader or group or person acted in a certain way has no bearing on that. Human fallacy will never cease nor am I in a position to condemn anyone, especially Brigham Young.
I truly believe that there is inefficient evidence to show Brigham Young did or didn't do it. If there was definitive, conclusive, irrefutable evidence, it would have been brought forth by now (not legend or heresay passed from one person to another).
Scholarly history | 11:55 p.m. May 24, 2008
Scholarly history is based on weighing the totality of evidence.
People who lack the totality of evidence should wait for the book before trying to discredit it, and then should use historical scholarship in their argument. Arguing against scholarly history with emotional diatribe is sort of silly.
It's not quite as silly as standing outside someone else's church meeting and shouting names at them, but it's pretty silly just the same.
People who lack the totality of evidence should wait for the book before trying to discredit it, and then should use historical scholarship in their argument. Arguing against scholarly history with emotional diatribe is sort of silly.
It's not quite as silly as standing outside someone else's church meeting and shouting names at them, but it's pretty silly just the same.
non-member history freak | 12:04 a.m. May 25, 2008
Sounds like Brigham Young and the Mormon Pioneer descendants are all riled and
heated up on here tonight.
I will tell you what I think. I think the Mormon pioneers and Brigham Young were all in together on the massacre, including the Arkansas wagon train. I once heard from some very old, old timers from Cedar City, who once told me some great stories about the massacre. They said, that the Arkansas group were up to no good while passing through S-Lake City and Southern Utah, and taunting all the Mormons. They made threats with Johnson's army, and made fun of the Mormons. So it looks like perhaps the massacred group may have egged it on just a bit, and made the Mormons and Brigham Young very paranoid, and got themselves murdered. It was the wild, wild west, and anything could have happen back then.
I will tell you what I think. I think the Mormon pioneers and Brigham Young were all in together on the massacre, including the Arkansas wagon train. I once heard from some very old, old timers from Cedar City, who once told me some great stories about the massacre. They said, that the Arkansas group were up to no good while passing through S-Lake City and Southern Utah, and taunting all the Mormons. They made threats with Johnson's army, and made fun of the Mormons. So it looks like perhaps the massacred group may have egged it on just a bit, and made the Mormons and Brigham Young very paranoid, and got themselves murdered. It was the wild, wild west, and anything could have happen back then.
John | 12:07 a.m. May 25, 2008
My great grandfather, James Holt Haslam was the courier who rode 600 miles in 66
hours to Salt Lake and back with the message from Isaac Haight to Brigham Young
asking what they were to do about the Fancher wagon train. The response he
carried back was "Let the wagon train pass safely if it takes all of Iron
County to do it". A copy of his deposition for Brigham Youngs trial was
published in The Instructor in the early 1900's.
arc | 12:20 a.m. May 25, 2008
It is pretty obvious that Brigham Young didn't order the MMM. What
isn't clear is that during the Utah war, when many were tired of being
kicked out of a area, and then another, all it would take it someone starting a
rumor to strike a match to the pent up emotions, and a few people made a
mistake. The MMM was a mistake, made by a few people that had been persecuted
and were not about to be persecuted again. Let the dead rest. The MMM has turned
in to a tool for anti-mormon groups to blast the church's right to exist.
History is trying to repeat itself. Stop the hate. Bring peace.
Ether 8:19, Book of Mormon | 12:22 a.m. May 25, 2008
The Mountain Meadow Massacre took place because those Mormons failed to follow
the teachings of their own scriptures.
See Ether 8:19 in the Book of Mormon: "For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that man should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man." Ether could not be any clearer on this matter.
The Massacre occurred due to the shedding of blood via a secret combination--in direct violation of foundational Mormon scripture.
See Ether 8:19 in the Book of Mormon: "For the Lord worketh not in secret combinations, neither doth he will that man should shed blood, but in all things hath forbidden it, from the beginning of man." Ether could not be any clearer on this matter.
The Massacre occurred due to the shedding of blood via a secret combination--in direct violation of foundational Mormon scripture.
Bob | 12:38 a.m. May 25, 2008
Without question President Young ordered the massacre, just like President Bush
ordered the military to blow up the dikes and flood New Orleans, and President
Reagan invented AIDS to kill all the blacks folks in America. It's all so
obvious, you just have to have enough imagination.
re: 12:22 a.m. | 12:53 a.m. May 25, 2008
You are full of yourself and are making judgments of Mormon pioneer people you never knew. Get a life! Read the scriptures, but don't set yourself up to be a judge of others, events and people you know nothing of. That is Gods duty--not yours!
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