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Texas fires back with photos in FLDS case
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douglas | 5:19 p.m. May 24, 2008
It is hard to admit that polygamy leads to... this. And that those who support
polygamy are breaking the law.
Time to restructure the religious views.
Time to restructure the religious views.
realitycheck | 5:38 p.m. May 24, 2008
to DC -
The fact is, the FLDS declare that a convicted child molester is the prophet of their religion. That in itself is enough to question whether these parents can prevent further child abuse.
The picture and other evidence of child abuse - done in the name of a religion - makes all followers of that religion suspect as parents.
(And don't say "what about priests". They do it for their own sick benefit. They've never said they did it in the name of their religion.)
Supreme court will reverse the appellate ruling but the mothers will be allowed to stay with the children while it is all sorted out. CPS will make a concerted effort to regroup the children back into their sibling units.
You did really think you are smarter than Texas, FLDS? They knew what the appellate court was going to do and they knew they would have to go to the Supreme court. They knew this a month ago.
You should cut your losses, throw some men to the wolves and regroup somewhere else in 20 years. You won't win a legal war, nor a media war, with Texas.
The fact is, the FLDS declare that a convicted child molester is the prophet of their religion. That in itself is enough to question whether these parents can prevent further child abuse.
The picture and other evidence of child abuse - done in the name of a religion - makes all followers of that religion suspect as parents.
(And don't say "what about priests". They do it for their own sick benefit. They've never said they did it in the name of their religion.)
Supreme court will reverse the appellate ruling but the mothers will be allowed to stay with the children while it is all sorted out. CPS will make a concerted effort to regroup the children back into their sibling units.
You did really think you are smarter than Texas, FLDS? They knew what the appellate court was going to do and they knew they would have to go to the Supreme court. They knew this a month ago.
You should cut your losses, throw some men to the wolves and regroup somewhere else in 20 years. You won't win a legal war, nor a media war, with Texas.
Comments continue below
Rich | 5:40 p.m. May 24, 2008
I've lost a lot of respect for the FLDS because they obviously lie in
court. It's the same lie that Hillary Clinton used so much, "I
don't know," or "I don't remember," "I don't
recall," "I think I used to know, but now I don't."
Yeah, sure. People who can't remember or don't know vital facts about their household are obviously withholding information that they consider to be potentially damaging. If they don't want to answer the question, they should take the Fifth Amendment.
Yeah, sure. People who can't remember or don't know vital facts about their household are obviously withholding information that they consider to be potentially damaging. If they don't want to answer the question, they should take the Fifth Amendment.
Anonymous | 5:54 p.m. May 24, 2008
SUPREME COURT JUDGES
PLEASE FIND A WAY TO REVERSE BACK TO LOWER COURT...
the children are in immediate harm
realitycheck | 6:00 p.m. May 24, 2008
sorry - on my 5:38pm - I meant convicted sex offender, not convicted child
molester.
gretchen | 6:34 p.m. May 24, 2008
These people are taught to offer up any and every sacrifice of themselves, their
bank accounts, property, children, to whatever "prophet" is in power
over them. Their entire lives are full of fear of going to hell. Everything
they ever do is directly related to avoiding hell as they have been threatened
with since babyhood. No sacrifice is too great. I usually blog a lot more,
these folks are indeed a classic cult, but I will end with this. MANY of these
kids rescued were SIGNED OVER TO WARREN JEFFS and that is why their parents
cannot be identified and may never be. They belong to Warren in the cult's
mind. He has taught them to strive to please him alone, as he is equal to God
in their demented view of the universe. Pray for them to HEAR the gospel of
Christ alone for salvation. They have never heard that. It is their only hope.
Steve | 6:50 p.m. May 24, 2008
It is amazing how many folks defend the FLDS as some kind of quaint, benign
organization.
This is a vile cult. It is built on an illegal act (polygamy). It marries child brides (a form of rape). Education is denied broadly. Teenage signs are driven out. The current members support their pedophile prophet.
It is time for this evil group to be eliminated. One can believe anything one wants. But, their is no right to do whatever one choices.
Each state should arrest any participant. Given the mothers the option to have their children if they leave --- permanently. Imprison the men, especially the leadership.
They deserve no support. They deserve no sympathy.
To support the FLDS today is to support oppression and abuse. This is not just a group of quirky individuals. It is a group that practices forbidden activities. Shut them down. Now. Forever.
This is a vile cult. It is built on an illegal act (polygamy). It marries child brides (a form of rape). Education is denied broadly. Teenage signs are driven out. The current members support their pedophile prophet.
It is time for this evil group to be eliminated. One can believe anything one wants. But, their is no right to do whatever one choices.
Each state should arrest any participant. Given the mothers the option to have their children if they leave --- permanently. Imprison the men, especially the leadership.
They deserve no support. They deserve no sympathy.
To support the FLDS today is to support oppression and abuse. This is not just a group of quirky individuals. It is a group that practices forbidden activities. Shut them down. Now. Forever.
gretchen | 6:55 p.m. May 24, 2008
yes, flds has many safehouses. They are comfortable lying to all non-flds. They
have assets, and are geniuses at lies, and construction.
they continue all they do because it is their core belief that they serve God alone via their "prophet's" edicts and that often includes ignoring local, state, and federal law. It is their entire lifestyle to have multiple wives and dozens of kids, and to do ALL their leader says. I have researched them for over 3 years almost daily. I believe they are without hope, unless Warren in person tells them they must become born again Christians and stop worshipping anyone and everything except Christ. However, Warren has claimed to be Christ! If they hear that Christ is all they need, and see, a few may turn even yet, but those who have gotten out that have found the Lord will tell you it's looked down on to embrace full trust in Christ as Saviour.They worship multiple marriage, childbirth, and most of all their "prophet." So there will always be a lot of them-
until
Warren tells them to commit suicide. I believe that could still happen-- especially if they all continue their compund lifestyles.
they continue all they do because it is their core belief that they serve God alone via their "prophet's" edicts and that often includes ignoring local, state, and federal law. It is their entire lifestyle to have multiple wives and dozens of kids, and to do ALL their leader says. I have researched them for over 3 years almost daily. I believe they are without hope, unless Warren in person tells them they must become born again Christians and stop worshipping anyone and everything except Christ. However, Warren has claimed to be Christ! If they hear that Christ is all they need, and see, a few may turn even yet, but those who have gotten out that have found the Lord will tell you it's looked down on to embrace full trust in Christ as Saviour.They worship multiple marriage, childbirth, and most of all their "prophet." So there will always be a lot of them-
until
Warren tells them to commit suicide. I believe that could still happen-- especially if they all continue their compund lifestyles.
defending FLDS | 7:00 p.m. May 24, 2008
I think too many on here are thinking we, who support the higher court, are
defending the FLDS. We are not, only the constitution.
Most of us, I assume, believe that there needs to be more supervision in the FLDS, even outside supervision, but taking the children without any evidence, search warrant for every household, any proof, etc. is against the basic rights of every American.
Being for the constitution does not mean we are for the FLDS!
Most of us, I assume, believe that there needs to be more supervision in the FLDS, even outside supervision, but taking the children without any evidence, search warrant for every household, any proof, etc. is against the basic rights of every American.
Being for the constitution does not mean we are for the FLDS!
Re: defending FLDS | 7:12 p.m. May 24, 2008
I used to think that way too. But not after reading comment after comment of
FLDS who take no responsibility for their actions. They are pointing fingers at
everyone but never once will you hear them admit that they have done any wrong.
Since they don't believe that it's wrong to rape teens, I think that
it's going to be hard for them to convince anyone that they have rights.
Because we automatically think to ourselves, "What about the rights of
those little girls?"
Not defending FLDS either | 7:17 p.m. May 24, 2008
I have to agree! Almost nobody in America (there are arranged child marriages
in other cultures outside America, of course) outside the FLDS will defend child
marriages, forced marriages, blind obedience to leaders (which is not the same
as being faithful) taking families away from one parent and giving them to
someone else in more favor, or sending young boys away.
However, our constitutional rights are important--too important to lose, even in a just cause. In fact, it will be in a just cause that they will be most at risk, because people will allow many things if they think the cause is just.
And we still don't really know about this picture--but it has certainly been effective in influencing public opinion.
However, our constitutional rights are important--too important to lose, even in a just cause. In fact, it will be in a just cause that they will be most at risk, because people will allow many things if they think the cause is just.
And we still don't really know about this picture--but it has certainly been effective in influencing public opinion.
Steve | 7:26 p.m. May 24, 2008
People need to read the Texas court of appeals decision.
They did find that CPS had shown an imminent threat to post-puberty girls.
Where they differed from the district court judge was on whether boys and non-pubescent girls were in immediate threat.
That means that the court agreed that the lifestyle was threatening. There was sufficient proof of potential harm. Where they differed was on the remedy, namely how many children should be removed.
They did find that CPS had shown an imminent threat to post-puberty girls.
Where they differed from the district court judge was on whether boys and non-pubescent girls were in immediate threat.
That means that the court agreed that the lifestyle was threatening. There was sufficient proof of potential harm. Where they differed was on the remedy, namely how many children should be removed.
John Lambert | 7:29 p.m. May 24, 2008
The FLDS are estimated to have 8000 members. Plus, of those 2000 people that
you know do you if all of them are married, what theur marital status is an so
on?
Beyond this, people seem to have totaly ignored the fact that groups that have adopted fugitive status where their leaders have gone on the underground function differently than people who do not fear being arrested.
Beyond this, people seem to have totaly ignored the fact that groups that have adopted fugitive status where their leaders have gone on the underground function differently than people who do not fear being arrested.
Court | 7:31 p.m. May 24, 2008
The Supreme Court of Texas will affirm the Court of Appeals. They will base
their decision on fact and not gossip, nor conjecture. FYI you can be both for
the Constitution and personally repulsed by the beliefs and practices of the
Church. The facts will remain that individuals, even if FLDS and we don't
like them, have the right to fair treatment in court. Those that spout hatred
are blinded by their own bigotry. One must remember though that if you ignore
the unfair application of law for an undesirable group, you may be the next
undesirable.
Demand a fair warrant for all, so that you may receive a fair warrant. Demand evidence, so that when they come for you, a lack of evidence allows you your freedom. Don't believe the gossips and remember that if they talk about others, they will talk about you...and it isn't always true. But remember most, that you are guilty by association even if you have done no wrong nor would ever commit wrong.
Demand a fair warrant for all, so that you may receive a fair warrant. Demand evidence, so that when they come for you, a lack of evidence allows you your freedom. Don't believe the gossips and remember that if they talk about others, they will talk about you...and it isn't always true. But remember most, that you are guilty by association even if you have done no wrong nor would ever commit wrong.
Fences | 7:36 p.m. May 24, 2008
Don't assume that everybody among the FLDS was in the know as to the
actions of Warren Jeffs. Weddings were often private.
John Lambert | 7:35 p.m. May 24, 2008
To the poster at 7:17,
Actually I think there are many Muslims in America who would defend every item you delineate.
Just because there are few Muslims where you live and the ones there are not in Sufi order or other closely controlled groups does not mean they do not exist.
In New York there are many Muslim men who take teenage brides when they are over age. Where is the state intervening?
Some of you shoul look into what has occured with the FLDS. The state of Utah has put their UEP into a court apointed trust. Multiple leaders have been sent to prison. However you will also see that on multiple occasions both Utah and Arizona have had to drop cases because girls refuse to testify they were raped. Statutory rape is a very hard crime to prosecute, becuase in most cases the victims do not believe they are such.
Actually I think there are many Muslims in America who would defend every item you delineate.
Just because there are few Muslims where you live and the ones there are not in Sufi order or other closely controlled groups does not mean they do not exist.
In New York there are many Muslim men who take teenage brides when they are over age. Where is the state intervening?
Some of you shoul look into what has occured with the FLDS. The state of Utah has put their UEP into a court apointed trust. Multiple leaders have been sent to prison. However you will also see that on multiple occasions both Utah and Arizona have had to drop cases because girls refuse to testify they were raped. Statutory rape is a very hard crime to prosecute, becuase in most cases the victims do not believe they are such.
Defend America America | 7:40 p.m. May 24, 2008
Well folks, I have one thing to say, and that is that I have never seen a
photograph of Warren Jeffs like this one. This particular photo is disturbing,
as well as disgusting! This Warren Jeffs character is a genuine sicko! He is
noooo prophet! Wow, I'm beginning to wonder if I'm truly living in
America when these things happen to go on here. And, I really don't give a
hoot if any other country is doing trash, it is their problem to clean up their
own trash. However, I am concerned as an American to what happens to our
children in our own country--THIS IS AMERICA, I think? I don't compare
America with trashy events that go on in other lesser countries. Good grief
people. Some on here really need to grow up!
Anonymous | 7:49 p.m. May 24, 2008
I do not spout hatred or bigotry against the religion itself, but the fact that
children are being used as baby makers. Drop that and you will hear no more
from me, and probably a lot of others.
Demi | 8:00 p.m. May 24, 2008
Something needs to be done with this cult. It is common knowledge of what goes
on there. New laws need to be made on this one. The old laws priviledge single
homes and more singular investigations. How is the state to protect children in
a closed cult situation where they are brainwashed from seeking help or even
knowing they are victims of abuse? Something needs to be done and advocating
against what the State of Texas has done upholding the very letter of the law
without considering the situation at hand, is just wrong in my opnion. These
folks have taken the rights away from their memebers. Why do we now have to
individually give them back and allow more of this to continue? If a mass of
people are controlled by a cult, in a known abusive cult environment, the law
should have mass control in the same manner and fashion that the cult has mass
control. Something needs to be done to fit this situation.
realitycheck | 8:17 p.m. May 24, 2008
to Court 7:31 pm
If you think the state Supreme Court is going to rule for the FLDS, you are seriously mistaken. The state WANTED the appellate court to strike down the lower court's judgement so the state could be the ones petioning the Supreme Court, instead of the other way around.
This has already been played out behind closed doors in the state capital. The lower court judge knows she is being used as a semi-scapegoat so the state would be the ones bringing it to the higher court. A LOT more evidence will be shown the Supreme Court than was shown to either lower level
FLDS is in way over their heads. They cannot withstand continued prosecutorial investigation because they have too many secrets.
If I was one of those mothers, and I REALLY cared about my children, I would cut a deal with the state and get my children out of that religion while I can. Those that continue to pledge their alligence to a convicted sex offender will have a real hard time retaining custody of their children.
FLDS will lose in court of law, and they will lose in the court of public opinion.
If you think the state Supreme Court is going to rule for the FLDS, you are seriously mistaken. The state WANTED the appellate court to strike down the lower court's judgement so the state could be the ones petioning the Supreme Court, instead of the other way around.
This has already been played out behind closed doors in the state capital. The lower court judge knows she is being used as a semi-scapegoat so the state would be the ones bringing it to the higher court. A LOT more evidence will be shown the Supreme Court than was shown to either lower level
FLDS is in way over their heads. They cannot withstand continued prosecutorial investigation because they have too many secrets.
If I was one of those mothers, and I REALLY cared about my children, I would cut a deal with the state and get my children out of that religion while I can. Those that continue to pledge their alligence to a convicted sex offender will have a real hard time retaining custody of their children.
FLDS will lose in court of law, and they will lose in the court of public opinion.
J-man | 8:56 p.m. May 24, 2008
I've been asking the FLDS for over a month now, where is Merril Jessop
hiding at?
realitycheck CPS | 9:16 p.m. May 24, 2008
There have been many examples of CPS agents beign taken to court for violating
the constitutinal rights and protections of families and individuals. CPS is not
larger than the constituion and has a terrible track record in violating
individual rights. For Example: In May 2007, the United States 9th Circuit Court
of Appeals found in ROGERS v. COUNTY OF SAN JOAQUIN, No. 05-16071 that a CPS
social worker acting without due process and without exigency (emergency
conditions) violated the 14th Amendment and Title 42 United State Code Section
1983, Henry V v. San Mateo County Social Services Agency, and many others.
Unless there is an IMMEDIATE DANGER - the CPS had no right to take the children, also CPS violated contitutional protections in kidnapping the entire child population of the ranch - many couples lived in individual housing.
CPS is an agency run amok, without regard for our constitutional protections. CPS regularly assumes guilt rather than innocence. CPS is indoctrinated with an anti-father and antifamily mindset. They must be reigned in nation-wide - Texas will serve as the case which brings this dangerous agency to national attention.
Unless there is an IMMEDIATE DANGER - the CPS had no right to take the children, also CPS violated contitutional protections in kidnapping the entire child population of the ranch - many couples lived in individual housing.
CPS is an agency run amok, without regard for our constitutional protections. CPS regularly assumes guilt rather than innocence. CPS is indoctrinated with an anti-father and antifamily mindset. They must be reigned in nation-wide - Texas will serve as the case which brings this dangerous agency to national attention.
Reader | 9:38 p.m. May 24, 2008
You put Jeffs in the real world, and with his behavior, he would have his rear
end kicked man times over. And I would be standing in line for my shot at
crushing this wimp.
Concerned Mother | 9:44 p.m. May 24, 2008
I hope this situation is a warning to LDS members that we mainstream Americans
are very concerned about how you treat women!
Allowing girls to have babies is harmful to them physically, emotionally, and ultimately spiritually.
To those women who responded that they didn't know the answers to the court's questions; are you too dumb to ask the court to make a statement? You can tell the court if you are afraid for yourself and your children's welfare! Stop the madness and start telling the whole truth about living conditions at the FYZ Ranch. Your silence places you among those who have possibly abused your children.
If the Catholic Church can recover from it's problems with child abuse, so can your church.
The first step is taking responsibility, not hiding.
Allowing girls to have babies is harmful to them physically, emotionally, and ultimately spiritually.
To those women who responded that they didn't know the answers to the court's questions; are you too dumb to ask the court to make a statement? You can tell the court if you are afraid for yourself and your children's welfare! Stop the madness and start telling the whole truth about living conditions at the FYZ Ranch. Your silence places you among those who have possibly abused your children.
If the Catholic Church can recover from it's problems with child abuse, so can your church.
The first step is taking responsibility, not hiding.
Dear | 9:48 p.m. May 24, 2008
First that isn't a great photo, how do they know who it is let alone the
age? Also, Jeff's isn't part of the group anymore, and isn't
related to the case since he will not be around the children. The fact remains
they had no real reason to remove the children, not if they were following
current law, and are now trying to cover themselves. They didn't follow due
process or the law, and although I don't agree with the FLDS beliefs, this
wasn't allowed by law, and those children have been abused by the state
when being removed with swat teams, and all that has gone on back and forth. The
children's rights weren't protected, they've been exposed to a
lot that they wouldn't have if the state had acted as they usually
would've. Drug dealers and even previously abusive parents who are being
investigated have more rights than these people. There has to be a lot of proof
before, in this case it was a false lead, and religion. They were allowed to
ignore the law, and it waisted valuable resources needed to protect abused
children, reguardless of religion. All abuse needs to be investigated beyond
religion alone.
As I would say to anyone | 10:09 p.m. May 24, 2008
What does this have to do with the price of rice in China?
This has nothing to do with "their" case period.
Stupid, ignorant people. Grasping at straws because they messed up big time. CPS and that crazy judge need to seek professional help and get another job. They are horrible in what they do and who they represent.
I pray for those children to be reunited with their mothers.
The leaders and government workers in the state of Texas continue to show their true side of disgust. They make me sick. Talk about unlawful people!!!
This has nothing to do with "their" case period.
Stupid, ignorant people. Grasping at straws because they messed up big time. CPS and that crazy judge need to seek professional help and get another job. They are horrible in what they do and who they represent.
I pray for those children to be reunited with their mothers.
The leaders and government workers in the state of Texas continue to show their true side of disgust. They make me sick. Talk about unlawful people!!!
Are you for real??? | 1:09 a.m. May 25, 2008
It seems that most comments from readers reveal a lot of denial as to the damage
being done to these children. This isn't about some presidential candidate
kissing babies to get elected or someone "photoshopping" a photo.
Warren Jeffs is a known child pedophile who has the tacit approval of like
minded men. He apparently has also convinced a number of his brain dead women
followers that it's ok to "marry" off their young daughters to
dirty old men. Sex with minor children under the guise of religious freedom does
not make it even remotely right. I think Texas is right to err on the side of
the children.
Inconvenient truth | 3:43 a.m. May 25, 2008
Dan Jessop on oath in court looked at the photograph and gave evidence that the
photograph was of Warren Jeffs and his young sister kissing.
Some people seem to fail to grasp the significance of this. Dan Jessop clearly didn't feel the photo was computer generated etc he recognised and identified both people.
Lets not speculate but rely on the evidence given in the hearing. Jessop was not able to offer an answer to the question of marriage between the two but positively identified who was in the photograph which was dated.
He wasn't objecting to being shown the photograph either. This didn't come as a shock to him.
I suggest this is evidence that he knew and condoned Jeffs behaviour to his sister.
If this doesn't alarm you you are probably FLDS!
Some people seem to fail to grasp the significance of this. Dan Jessop clearly didn't feel the photo was computer generated etc he recognised and identified both people.
Lets not speculate but rely on the evidence given in the hearing. Jessop was not able to offer an answer to the question of marriage between the two but positively identified who was in the photograph which was dated.
He wasn't objecting to being shown the photograph either. This didn't come as a shock to him.
I suggest this is evidence that he knew and condoned Jeffs behaviour to his sister.
If this doesn't alarm you you are probably FLDS!
we can only guess | 4:10 a.m. May 25, 2008
I don't know the girl in the picture looks like she's in her thirties,
the way she wears her hair and the dress she's wearing, no way you can
tell. He's well over six foot i know many girls that are in their thirties
and only 4'10". Maybe there have been some underage marriages, heck
some of them don't even know how old they are, they just don't focus
on those things like other people do. All i know is that it is very traumatic to
rip a child away from their parents for absolutely no reason at all. By the way
the girl who originally made the call has never been found, but they did trace
the call to Colorado. If a girl call from colorado and says she's in texas
would't that send up a red flag to anyone with a six grade education.
to J-man | 5:40 a.m. May 25, 2008
Merrill Jessop isn't in hiding and simply because you don't have his
phone number means nothing.
NANTZ | 6:35 a.m. May 25, 2008
Warning---This ain't the only pictures they have!! The FLDS men want
these children back to hide them in Utah,Arizona, ect., hence no children, no
case against them. Do you really think that if the children return to the
compound, they'll all be skipping,singing and chasing butterflies. Will
they let Larry King and the press come in the compound, then? I think not!!!
Why don't they invite Nancy Grace. She's right, this is nothing more
than a sexual preditor's paradise. Texas,....SHUT IT DOWN!!!!!!!
FLDS POSTINGS | 7:21 a.m. May 25, 2008
There is a large contingency of FLDS posting on this story in a concerted effort
to influence public opinion.
The pictures are disgusting and revolting to me.
The pictures are disgusting and revolting to me.
This is so sad | 7:51 a.m. May 25, 2008
Dan Jessop, not only identified the little girl in the picture that Warren Jeffs
is kissing as being his baby sister, but also seen nothing wrong with it..from
the sounds of his statement to the court. The bishops list..also listed her as
being born July3, 1994...sick..sick..sick..
Sharon | 9:20 a.m. May 25, 2008
J-man...you have been asking where is Merrill Jessop, who happens to be the
father of the little girl in the picture.....hiding...well, I dont have the
answer to your question, but I bet hes sweating up a storm right now where ever
he is.From my point of view, Merrill and the little girls mother, both should be
locked away.
Devils Advocate | 9:27 a.m. May 25, 2008
1. Did the FLDS lie about the intended purpose of the property to make the
purchase in Texas?
2. Did the FLDS men and women lie to Texas/CPS about mulitple things..ages, names, who is who's Mother-Father-Sibling... ect?
3. Did the FLDS move the children around the compound trying to "hide" them from officials?
4. Did the FLDS women lie to CPS (when it suited their needs) about their ages in order to stay with their children?
5. Have the FLDS cooperated with the athorities ever?
Given their(FLDS) history of lying, being evasive or all around difficult to deal with, why should Texas have handled things differently?
The FLDS are one group, all members think alike(Warren "sicko" Jeffs is the ONE), talk alike(Warren "sicko" Jeffs is the ONE), act alike(Warren "sicko" Jeffs is the ONE). Why then, should we treat the group as individuals?
The difference between inner city pregnant teens and FLDS pregnants teens is a little word called CHOICE.
2. Did the FLDS men and women lie to Texas/CPS about mulitple things..ages, names, who is who's Mother-Father-Sibling... ect?
3. Did the FLDS move the children around the compound trying to "hide" them from officials?
4. Did the FLDS women lie to CPS (when it suited their needs) about their ages in order to stay with their children?
5. Have the FLDS cooperated with the athorities ever?
Given their(FLDS) history of lying, being evasive or all around difficult to deal with, why should Texas have handled things differently?
The FLDS are one group, all members think alike(Warren "sicko" Jeffs is the ONE), talk alike(Warren "sicko" Jeffs is the ONE), act alike(Warren "sicko" Jeffs is the ONE). Why then, should we treat the group as individuals?
The difference between inner city pregnant teens and FLDS pregnants teens is a little word called CHOICE.
Facts | 9:59 a.m. May 25, 2008
Dan Jessop actually stated that he did not know if his sister was married to
Jeffs and does not know her age. Just because he did not dispute the age as 13
means nothing since he already stated he doesn't know her age. Let us not
forget that another "minor" was actually 27.
Sharon | 10:22 a.m. May 25, 2008
Reply to FACTS 9:59
GIVE me a break.....your trying to say...a brother does not know his own sisters age??? A brother does not know if his little sister is married, but yet he knew it was his baby sister in the sick photo w/ Jeffs..geesh..he lives right there in the same compound...It is just one big fat lie after another with these people. I guess lying is not a sin..in their religion.
GIVE me a break.....your trying to say...a brother does not know his own sisters age??? A brother does not know if his little sister is married, but yet he knew it was his baby sister in the sick photo w/ Jeffs..geesh..he lives right there in the same compound...It is just one big fat lie after another with these people. I guess lying is not a sin..in their religion.
Facts | 10:39 a.m. May 25, 2008
Yes, I am very much saying that a brother does not know his sisters ages. I
just called my brother up to verify that I am correct. I am. He was 0 for 3. As
far as marriage, I was not able to attend two weddings of family members this
week. I am not LDS so was excluded. Perhaps FLDS weddings are also
exclusionary. Perhaps the FLDS simply lead their loves without gossiping as to
who married whom, how much he earns and so forth as you do.
You also know, perhaps not, that the wedding (if such even took place) might have taken place somewhere other than TX where say perhaps 10000 people live.
So far the only lies have been out of CPS. Why do you insist on ignoring birth certificates and drivers licenses.
You also know, perhaps not, that the wedding (if such even took place) might have taken place somewhere other than TX where say perhaps 10000 people live.
So far the only lies have been out of CPS. Why do you insist on ignoring birth certificates and drivers licenses.
TO Devil's advocate | 10:46 a.m. May 25, 2008
1. Yes, so did Disney regarding the Florida Property.
2. No. The CPS even allows mothers to visit their children. Odd that if the women were not the mothers that CPS would allow that visitation.
3. No, my children would also be allowed the run of the neighborhood given the same situation. Would you have preferred the children be chained?
4. Yes, I would have done the same especially when CPS told them "if you state you are a minor, you may stay with your child." That does not discount the fact that these same women handed legal documentation showing otherwise.
5. There is no legal requirement that the FLDS cooperate.
6. We should treat them as individuals because our law demands it. Not liking them isn't a reason to disregard the law.
7. Nothing suggests choice is not given. You seem to not understand arranged marriage v. forced marriage. Even in the UT case, there was no gun pointed at anybody's head. Also note there was no conviction of rape, only accomplice. You likely don't find that odd either.
8. Do you actually expect me to believe that CPS couldn't recognize a 27 year old as such?
2. No. The CPS even allows mothers to visit their children. Odd that if the women were not the mothers that CPS would allow that visitation.
3. No, my children would also be allowed the run of the neighborhood given the same situation. Would you have preferred the children be chained?
4. Yes, I would have done the same especially when CPS told them "if you state you are a minor, you may stay with your child." That does not discount the fact that these same women handed legal documentation showing otherwise.
5. There is no legal requirement that the FLDS cooperate.
6. We should treat them as individuals because our law demands it. Not liking them isn't a reason to disregard the law.
7. Nothing suggests choice is not given. You seem to not understand arranged marriage v. forced marriage. Even in the UT case, there was no gun pointed at anybody's head. Also note there was no conviction of rape, only accomplice. You likely don't find that odd either.
8. Do you actually expect me to believe that CPS couldn't recognize a 27 year old as such?
Ray | 11:14 a.m. May 25, 2008
I want for Dan Jessop's lawyer to ask CPS: What if Dan Jessop moved his
family to Texas to escape what was otherwise happening in Utah? Can CPS say
with any chance of being correct, did Dan move his family to Texas to escape
what was happening in Utah, or to perpetuate it? CPS asserts proudly that they
think Dan is here to perpetuate a problem. How do they know, did they use a
ouija board?
Charles | 11:20 a.m. May 25, 2008
I believe that CPS knew that those women were older then most of the case
workers out there.
The FLDS will end up being able to sue the State of Texas. I hate to see my taxes increase some more because of an improperly trained State Agency. Having been a victim of CPS myself, 230 AM raids in the morning. No children in my household. The police refused to do anything about it. 2006
During my Divorce 1999, CPS raided the house and the Babysitter, age 30, called me and quit. I went through three different Babysitters because of CPS harassing them. They told my kids that they didn't have to listen to me. They sicked the AG on me and tried to get me fired from my job.
The FLDS will end up being able to sue the State of Texas. I hate to see my taxes increase some more because of an improperly trained State Agency. Having been a victim of CPS myself, 230 AM raids in the morning. No children in my household. The police refused to do anything about it. 2006
During my Divorce 1999, CPS raided the house and the Babysitter, age 30, called me and quit. I went through three different Babysitters because of CPS harassing them. They told my kids that they didn't have to listen to me. They sicked the AG on me and tried to get me fired from my job.
CPS | 11:31 a.m. May 25, 2008
should be charged with 465 or at less 27 accounts of kidnapping (all felonies),
and conspiracy to commit many felonies. then on top perjury for lying under
oath.
Ing | 11:41 a.m. May 25, 2008
So what does this picture--assuming it is Warren Jeffs kissing a pregnant,
underage female--really have to do with taking 468 children away from their
families?
What, in any rational, legal sense, does it prove? That Warren Jeffs kissed someone who was young and pregnant.
Jeffs himself is in jail. Even if other people in the FLDS group will tend to follow Jeffs' example, you still have to defend the actions of the CPS with evidence that that ALL the children they took were in immediate physical danger. Not that someday they might kiss someone like Uncle Warren. IMMEDIATE danger. That's what the law says.
Weigh the harm of separating children from their parents against the harm that they would or could suffer in their homes. During the few days or weeks it might take to investigate what really happens in various homes, would any of those children under (say) 10 or ll, which is almost all of them, have suffered any physical harm? Any mental or emotional harm worse than staying with their parents?
No. The CPS has almost no evidence, beyond its own belief that the the FLDS have to be guilty of *something.*
What, in any rational, legal sense, does it prove? That Warren Jeffs kissed someone who was young and pregnant.
Jeffs himself is in jail. Even if other people in the FLDS group will tend to follow Jeffs' example, you still have to defend the actions of the CPS with evidence that that ALL the children they took were in immediate physical danger. Not that someday they might kiss someone like Uncle Warren. IMMEDIATE danger. That's what the law says.
Weigh the harm of separating children from their parents against the harm that they would or could suffer in their homes. During the few days or weeks it might take to investigate what really happens in various homes, would any of those children under (say) 10 or ll, which is almost all of them, have suffered any physical harm? Any mental or emotional harm worse than staying with their parents?
No. The CPS has almost no evidence, beyond its own belief that the the FLDS have to be guilty of *something.*
Charles | 12:00 p.m. May 25, 2008
to Devils advocate
The Children are scattered all over the State. One Woman had three children and it is over a 2000 mile trip for her to see them. Under CPS Guidelines, the Siblings are supposed to be kept together and within a reasonable distance for the Parents to visit.
Also 16 year olds are allowed to marry
� 2.102. PARENTAL CONSENT FOR UNDERAGE APPLICANT.
(a) If an applicant is 16 years of age or older but under 18 years
of age, the county clerk shall issue the license if parental consent
is given as provided by this section.
The Children are scattered all over the State. One Woman had three children and it is over a 2000 mile trip for her to see them. Under CPS Guidelines, the Siblings are supposed to be kept together and within a reasonable distance for the Parents to visit.
Also 16 year olds are allowed to marry
� 2.102. PARENTAL CONSENT FOR UNDERAGE APPLICANT.
(a) If an applicant is 16 years of age or older but under 18 years
of age, the county clerk shall issue the license if parental consent
is given as provided by this section.
J-man | 12:32 p.m. May 25, 2008
FLDS get real! Merril Jessop is hiding. We've seen plenty of Willie
Jessop, but Merril has been acting like a groundhog afraid of his shadown ever
since this whose ordeal went down. And the reason for it is to avoid sharing a
cell with Warren Jeffs.
We have to wonder how many underage marriages did Merril sanction while running the FLDS in Texas?????
We have to wonder how many underage marriages did Merril sanction while running the FLDS in Texas?????
To Charles | 12:44 p.m. May 25, 2008
That would mean that the marriages would be legal. The FLDS only have one legal
marriage the rest are not. Im guessing that the law of allowing an under aged
girl to marry the parent or guardian must sign a LEGAL document agreeing to the
marriage. Therefore any marriage to girls under 18 would pretty much be
illegal. Toss em in jail & throw away the key.
CG | 1:15 p.m. May 25, 2008
How about using Judge Walther's logic right back at her, re: the Warren
Jeffs photos?
Quote from Walthers, in late April, in response to birth certificates produced by FLDS girls to prove their ages:
"How do you know, in today's world of identity theft, a birth certificate is proof of who they are?" the judge asked one woman's
attorney.
Indeed, how do you know, in today's world of photoshopping, how a photograph is proof that something happened? I'd say about a month of verification might be needed - that's what it took for the birth certificates after all.
Quote from Walthers, in late April, in response to birth certificates produced by FLDS girls to prove their ages:
"How do you know, in today's world of identity theft, a birth certificate is proof of who they are?" the judge asked one woman's
attorney.
Indeed, how do you know, in today's world of photoshopping, how a photograph is proof that something happened? I'd say about a month of verification might be needed - that's what it took for the birth certificates after all.
no evidence | 2:10 p.m. May 25, 2008
From looking at this picture, you cannot tell who the girl is or her age. The
second picture only shows that the girl is much shorter than Jeffs. In no way
is this evidence that the girl in question is underage.
Making Up Stories | 2:38 p.m. May 25, 2008
This photo proves nothing. It is only put out there by the Texas CPS to get
public opinion back on their side.
The sad truth is, a lot of you people are falling for it.
Stop defending the Texas CPS. It has already been proven time and time again they are lairs. They claimed a 14 year old was pregnant. Wrong! They claimed a 27 year old woman was a minor, and they had her birth certificate all along. They claimed a girl giving birth was under 18, when she was actually an adult.
The Texas CPS took religious teachings away from the kids. Some attorneys are claiming they took the Book of Mormon from the kids.
Americans cannot let a government agency get away with this type of behavior.
The sad truth is, a lot of you people are falling for it.
Stop defending the Texas CPS. It has already been proven time and time again they are lairs. They claimed a 14 year old was pregnant. Wrong! They claimed a 27 year old woman was a minor, and they had her birth certificate all along. They claimed a girl giving birth was under 18, when she was actually an adult.
The Texas CPS took religious teachings away from the kids. Some attorneys are claiming they took the Book of Mormon from the kids.
Americans cannot let a government agency get away with this type of behavior.
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Photos of FLDS Church leader Warren Jeffs and a young female were entered into evidence in a custody battle over a 1-week-old baby. Lawyers would not say where they obtained the photos, which are dated July 2006.
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It will end with prosecutions of the men that come to claim the children whose birth dates coincides with child rape. CPS will be allowed to hold the children until BOTH parents are identified, and either the men will skip like the cowards they are; or they will step up, go to jail, and, as sex offenders, lose the right to be around children.
The women will raise the children in a semi-supervised environment.
So it's a win-win outcome. The mothers get back the children. The young girls don't have to worry about getting "assiged" at a young age to some older man - maybe they'll even be able to grow up to pick their own husband when they fall in love, instead of being told who to marry. And those that took advantage of underage girls will go to prison and be registered as sex offenders.
American justice. Texas-style.