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Texas fights return of FLDS kids
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Boiseguy | 11:50 a.m. May 24, 2008
The issue is not that they live differently or are weird.. it is that they put
up walls and live in secrecy.. if you have nothing to hide then live transparent
lives.. everyone knows what walls are for.. its not to keep people in.. its to
keep people OUT... the fact that they have walls around these compounds
blatantly shows their regard for the rest of the world...I'm sorry but as
bad as the world is.. you can't put up a wall and assume you aren't a
member of this planet...
We'll see what happens and if they start taking their kids underground to mexico or other places so that CPS cannot check in and do follow up investigations... that should show how much respect they have for the law... the law is not perfect.. but we all are subject to it and must go thru the process out of respect and order.. they are not above this.. so we'll see.... I appreciate everyone vouching for mothers.. but this isn't about the mothers its about the kids...
We'll see what happens and if they start taking their kids underground to mexico or other places so that CPS cannot check in and do follow up investigations... that should show how much respect they have for the law... the law is not perfect.. but we all are subject to it and must go thru the process out of respect and order.. they are not above this.. so we'll see.... I appreciate everyone vouching for mothers.. but this isn't about the mothers its about the kids...
Pictures | 12:02 p.m. May 24, 2008
Look at the pictures of Warren Jeffs making out with a little girl. Anyone who
supports that man as a prophet is troubled, seriously troubled.
Comments continue below
Proud to be an American | 12:21 p.m. May 24, 2008
Praise the Lord for fair and honest judges. I applaud this judge who boldly
stepped to the plate, and gave his unbiased, honest judgement, looking at the
total picture, and then exercising the wisdom of Solomon.
We deal with children from dysfunctional families on at least a weekly basis; and although we don't agree with all of the FLDS religious practices, how many of their children are committing suicide, having sex with numerous partners from young teen years, killing each other...and the list goes on. These children have a structured way of life, are taught to work, are very peaceful and modest, and appear extremely healthy and loved.
Shame on us as Christians...instead of being critical, we should show them how they are breaking the law in LOVE. How can they change what they do not know to change? Before we are so quick to be critical of others, we need to look at our own familys, and communities. We have the blessing of living in America...and life is short for each of us...Let us each strive with all our being to make a positive differance in someone's life today.
We deal with children from dysfunctional families on at least a weekly basis; and although we don't agree with all of the FLDS religious practices, how many of their children are committing suicide, having sex with numerous partners from young teen years, killing each other...and the list goes on. These children have a structured way of life, are taught to work, are very peaceful and modest, and appear extremely healthy and loved.
Shame on us as Christians...instead of being critical, we should show them how they are breaking the law in LOVE. How can they change what they do not know to change? Before we are so quick to be critical of others, we need to look at our own familys, and communities. We have the blessing of living in America...and life is short for each of us...Let us each strive with all our being to make a positive differance in someone's life today.
Old Geezer in Vegas | 12:24 p.m. May 24, 2008
The CPS continues to say that �the belief
system� of the FLDS will harm the children!!
Now in the state of Texas:
Sex education starts early in grade school.
Gay sex is OK.
Under aged births are rampant, as is gang activity in the major cities.
Many women are drug addicts when they give birth.
Drug use is way out of control and illegal drugs are available almost everywhere.
There is sex abuse even in the foster care system.
Texas admits they can�t even control all this but the FLDS belief system will harm the children?
Now in the state of Texas:
Sex education starts early in grade school.
Gay sex is OK.
Under aged births are rampant, as is gang activity in the major cities.
Many women are drug addicts when they give birth.
Drug use is way out of control and illegal drugs are available almost everywhere.
There is sex abuse even in the foster care system.
Texas admits they can�t even control all this but the FLDS belief system will harm the children?
Sandy & Family | 12:53 p.m. May 24, 2008
I am glad you all see the truth here on this subject. For those of you still
bringing up pilagomy(being legally married to more than one spouse)which these
people are not doing. A lot of them are normal(1 man,1 woman)couples which is
more than I can say for couples out here. We have all kinds of couples raising
children now how confusing is that for a child. At least these children know God
because if they didn't they would be disasters right now. Their lives have
been in shambles since this whole thing has started. The ones accused were not
proven to be abusers nor were they locked,don't get me wrong I do not
believe the allegations against them,but since when do we punish the victims of
a supposed crime. If the women were brainwashed and didn't know what abuse
was shouldn't Adult Protective services have come in here and kidnapped
them. Instead we split them all up and punished all of them for nothing less
than their religion. I hope the Supreme Court holds up justice not Bureaucracy
lies. Just for the record we can email the people responsible for this decision
in that court because I did.
Re: Wyogirl 11:43 | 12:58 p.m. May 24, 2008
I have wondered the same thing about polygamy. Why in the world would it be
acceptable for a man to have several women, and yet the woman expected to remain
faithful in every aspect. Doesn't seem right to me at all, in any way.
Unless the woman is seen as second class and doesn't have the same rights.
Silver Fox says... | 1:01 p.m. May 24, 2008
So many words, so little conversation.
So many words, so much anger.
So many words, sickening.
Meanwhile has anyone seen any good news reporting on the children, mother's visits with the children or how how about the boys on the cattle ranch?
Anybody want to be an attorney?
How about a Texas case worker ?
Psychiatrist, physician ?
Judge?
None of the above offer any solutions to the FLDS. The FLDS have all the answers?
Maybe it about time for everybody to shut up. Write letters to congressmen or women. Visit their offices.
How about a demonstration?
It seems like that the FLDS are drowning in their own soup! The state of Texas has been sucked into the mess they created in Utah and Arizona.
So many words, so much anger.
So many words, sickening.
Meanwhile has anyone seen any good news reporting on the children, mother's visits with the children or how how about the boys on the cattle ranch?
Anybody want to be an attorney?
How about a Texas case worker ?
Psychiatrist, physician ?
Judge?
None of the above offer any solutions to the FLDS. The FLDS have all the answers?
Maybe it about time for everybody to shut up. Write letters to congressmen or women. Visit their offices.
How about a demonstration?
It seems like that the FLDS are drowning in their own soup! The state of Texas has been sucked into the mess they created in Utah and Arizona.
nice red herring | 1:14 p.m. May 24, 2008
That disgusting photo is a lovely red herring. It has nothing to do with these
cases or the children in the community. Its sole purpose is to incite the
public and humiliate a mother because the judge was incompetent and inept in her
first treatment of the case. It is sickening to see what CPS will do to try to
cover there own tail.
The photo is of Warren Jeffs and he is in prison, you know where he is. If that one photo is enough to cry child abuse then go and get him and try him. If not, don't use it to insult a woman who simply loves her children and wants them back.
The photo is of Warren Jeffs and he is in prison, you know where he is. If that one photo is enough to cry child abuse then go and get him and try him. If not, don't use it to insult a woman who simply loves her children and wants them back.
zoar | 2:16 p.m. May 24, 2008
I do not see what the problem is with CPS being unable to match all the
children with their mothers. It is really simple actually, Bring the children
and the mothers into the same room and tell the children to go to their mothers.
The children know whom their mother is.
Now there is a problem with the infants and that is only because CPS created the problem. How do they get the infants back since they cannot speak for themselves? CPS should never have taken the infants in the first place. CPS�s idea that they also were in imminent danger of being abused by the FLDS parents, is totally sick and shows the type of thinking that goes on within the CPS department.
Now there is a problem with the infants and that is only because CPS created the problem. How do they get the infants back since they cannot speak for themselves? CPS should never have taken the infants in the first place. CPS�s idea that they also were in imminent danger of being abused by the FLDS parents, is totally sick and shows the type of thinking that goes on within the CPS department.
awesomeron | 2:34 p.m. May 24, 2008
Not A Lie
41 Cases of Brokens Bones. Most likely more.
At least 5, 13,14 years old with Child.
Teenagers with Childern that had to be concived when they where underaged.
Not A Lie but Denial, Perverted Denial.
41 Cases of Brokens Bones. Most likely more.
At least 5, 13,14 years old with Child.
Teenagers with Childern that had to be concived when they where underaged.
Not A Lie but Denial, Perverted Denial.
Re: Wyogirl | 2:43 p.m. May 24, 2008
Not every woman in America believes in FEMINISM, there are MANY of us who
believe the BIBLE tells women to be in submission to their own husband, which is
in submission to Christ. And there is JOY in that way of life, not a
brainwashing . Some women DO NOT WANT any career other than motherhood, with all
the blessings (children) God gives. We have that right to choose our way of
life, our pursuit of happiness. So do you, so stop judging because all women
don't want to be career women. I think that is the SADDEST life myself!!!I
am conservative full gospel from MO., not FLDS by the way.
Re:2:43 | 2:49 p.m. May 24, 2008
You don't have to be a feminist to want your very own husband, all to
yourself. You don't have to be a feminist to believe that God wants both
of you to be equal. You don't have to be a feminist to see the adultery in
polygamy.
Re: 2:43 | 2:56 p.m. May 24, 2008
You can be a stay at home mom and still be submissive to your husband and expect
that he will not be bringing home another woman.
Bruce | 3:14 p.m. May 24, 2008
"...seems to me the only winners in this entire case are the
attorneys....oh wait, they are volunteering their time to people who have a
compound worth millions. Go figure. "
Would you advocate hocking the Vatican for the next low income Catholic that needs a lawyer?
I just find myself astounded at the hatred and prejudice toward these people. Of course, we threw the tv out years ago. My wife has to endure an hour or two of CNN where she works and she reports that her tv-watching coworkers all seem to be anti-FLDS. Have we as a culture really stooped so low as to judge right and wrong by what the tv tells us?
Would you advocate hocking the Vatican for the next low income Catholic that needs a lawyer?
I just find myself astounded at the hatred and prejudice toward these people. Of course, we threw the tv out years ago. My wife has to endure an hour or two of CNN where she works and she reports that her tv-watching coworkers all seem to be anti-FLDS. Have we as a culture really stooped so low as to judge right and wrong by what the tv tells us?
DC | 3:13 p.m. May 24, 2008
To Awesomeron, re: "Not a Lie"
Uh, actually one of the statements you make *is* a lie, one doesn't seem to mean anything, and the third requires additional evidence to know whether it means anything.
1. "41 cases of broken bones". CPS has provided evidence of this. According to the Seattle Children's Hospital, the national averages are that about 1/2 of all boys and 1/4 of all girls break at least one bone during childhood, for a blended average of 37.5%. There are broken bones in less than 10% of the FLDS kids. So if that fact means anything, it means that the FLDS kids seem to have a surprisingly small number of broken bones.
2. "At least 5 13, 14 years old with Child". That statement is false, and I believe you know it is false. The Appellate Court found there were 5 cases of teen pregnancy, in each case the teens were 16 or 17 years old. There was no evidence of 13 or 14 year old sex.
3. "Teenagers with Children". Yes, but no evidence was provided of how they got pregnant, who the fathers were or their ages. CPS must show that evidence.
Uh, actually one of the statements you make *is* a lie, one doesn't seem to mean anything, and the third requires additional evidence to know whether it means anything.
1. "41 cases of broken bones". CPS has provided evidence of this. According to the Seattle Children's Hospital, the national averages are that about 1/2 of all boys and 1/4 of all girls break at least one bone during childhood, for a blended average of 37.5%. There are broken bones in less than 10% of the FLDS kids. So if that fact means anything, it means that the FLDS kids seem to have a surprisingly small number of broken bones.
2. "At least 5 13, 14 years old with Child". That statement is false, and I believe you know it is false. The Appellate Court found there were 5 cases of teen pregnancy, in each case the teens were 16 or 17 years old. There was no evidence of 13 or 14 year old sex.
3. "Teenagers with Children". Yes, but no evidence was provided of how they got pregnant, who the fathers were or their ages. CPS must show that evidence.
If FLDS, Why not Catholics? | 3:49 p.m. May 24, 2008
If belonging to any religion that puts kids at risk for sexual abuse is grounds
for taking any kid away from their parents, why doesn't Texas take kids
away who are Catholic?
To Bruce at 3:13 | 3:56 p.m. May 24, 2008
Unfortunately, yes, we have stooped so low that we judge what is right and wrong
by what the TV tells us. "If it's on TV, it must be true" is a
mantra by which too many live. Witness the 97,000,000 or so votes on
"American Idol's" finale. It would be kind of humorous to hit the
street today and find out the percentage of folks that could name the winner of
American Idol compared to how many could name, say, five of the ten amendments
that make up the Bill of Rights to the U.S. Constitution.
wyogirl | 3:55 p.m. May 24, 2008
Woa - you accuse ME of being judgmental?
Just for the record, I am a stay at home mother - a choice I made even though I also have a college degree and could be working outside the home if I wanted to. Nobody who knows me would say I was a feminist...but if being a feminist means that I think women are NOT sub-human then I confess, I'm a feminist. I read and believe in the Bible. I understand that I should, and do, submit to my husband - as he submits to the Lord. But I would never submit to ANY man who wanted to harm my children in anyway. I also wouldn't submit and lie, and/or break the law to protect him - I don't believe God would want me to be a liar - the Bible mentions lying a time or two also.
I really am trying to understand their theology. If the only come back to an honest question is a personal attack then you must not have a very good answer to my question.
Just for the record, I am a stay at home mother - a choice I made even though I also have a college degree and could be working outside the home if I wanted to. Nobody who knows me would say I was a feminist...but if being a feminist means that I think women are NOT sub-human then I confess, I'm a feminist. I read and believe in the Bible. I understand that I should, and do, submit to my husband - as he submits to the Lord. But I would never submit to ANY man who wanted to harm my children in anyway. I also wouldn't submit and lie, and/or break the law to protect him - I don't believe God would want me to be a liar - the Bible mentions lying a time or two also.
I really am trying to understand their theology. If the only come back to an honest question is a personal attack then you must not have a very good answer to my question.
reaching | 4:12 p.m. May 24, 2008
Show me where the Pope has ever written or preached that children should be
abused. Warren Jeffs not only preached this practice - HE DID IT HIMSELF. See
the nasty picture of him kissing the girl HIS records say is 13.
Catholic parents did not knowingly turn their children over to be raped. FLDS parents condone, support and give their daughters to men to be raped.
Catholics do not raise their children to believe that someday they will be abused, and that it is a good thing. FLDS parents teach their girls that being a young bride is o.k. or even desirable since there is no other choice in life as wonderful as being a wife and mother. They allow them to be taken to seedy motels, "spiritually" but not legally married to men the girls hardly know, and then raped as the so called marriage is consemated.
Catholic parents did not knowingly turn their children over to be raped. FLDS parents condone, support and give their daughters to men to be raped.
Catholics do not raise their children to believe that someday they will be abused, and that it is a good thing. FLDS parents teach their girls that being a young bride is o.k. or even desirable since there is no other choice in life as wonderful as being a wife and mother. They allow them to be taken to seedy motels, "spiritually" but not legally married to men the girls hardly know, and then raped as the so called marriage is consemated.
transplant | 4:17 p.m. May 24, 2008
Re: Texas sheriff; very likely he will be removed from his children's home
if he currently resides there. He is being charged with a crime. The FLDS men
had no charges against them and they didn't volunteer to leave for the
benefit of their children. Cowards as they are.
---------------
Nantz: These children do not have "many" mothers. They each have one mother. They can only reasonably be returned to their own mother. Or father if they have the guts to step up. This is not a herd of cattle.
------------------
To those 'christians' off with her head comments. To err is human. To forgive is divine. Judge Walther erred on the side of protecting innocents. If the abuses of this sect in other places had been continuing here in Texas consider how much those children would have suffered with no one to care. Her mistake was caring too much. That's what the entire female population of the planet does. If we didn't care half of our children would never have a chance for any kind of decent life.
---------------
Nantz: These children do not have "many" mothers. They each have one mother. They can only reasonably be returned to their own mother. Or father if they have the guts to step up. This is not a herd of cattle.
------------------
To those 'christians' off with her head comments. To err is human. To forgive is divine. Judge Walther erred on the side of protecting innocents. If the abuses of this sect in other places had been continuing here in Texas consider how much those children would have suffered with no one to care. Her mistake was caring too much. That's what the entire female population of the planet does. If we didn't care half of our children would never have a chance for any kind of decent life.
Act first, think second | 5:04 p.m. May 24, 2008
They must obey the law! Thats it!
If they speed they are breaking the law. Bring the buses.
The FLDS need to adapt to the TEXAS culture that you impregnate and abandon.
Predudice is alive and well in Texas and why they didn't show up at the raid with their sheets on who knows?
If they speed they are breaking the law. Bring the buses.
The FLDS need to adapt to the TEXAS culture that you impregnate and abandon.
Predudice is alive and well in Texas and why they didn't show up at the raid with their sheets on who knows?
Ing | 5:06 p.m. May 24, 2008
Once again the legal documents show clearly that the CPS can not back up their
actions with enough evidence to justify them. Not even close.
This quote encapsulates what is so scary about the way the CPS is operating:
The department said it would not be safe for any child to return to the ranch "because the adults on the ranch expressed that they 'aren't doing anything harmful to their children'".
Since when does an accused person's belief in his or her own innocence become evidence of guilt? If this line of reasoning is all it takes for the CPS to justify taking someone's children away, anyone who is ever accused of anything better kiss their kids goodbye.
I'm not just picking on one weak spot in the CPS's arguments, either. Their ENTIRE CASE for taking all the children at once relies on these kinds of assumptions. Read the court documents linked to this article, and you'll see it for yourself. The appeals court isn't buying that faulty line of reasoning, thank God.
This quote encapsulates what is so scary about the way the CPS is operating:
The department said it would not be safe for any child to return to the ranch "because the adults on the ranch expressed that they 'aren't doing anything harmful to their children'".
Since when does an accused person's belief in his or her own innocence become evidence of guilt? If this line of reasoning is all it takes for the CPS to justify taking someone's children away, anyone who is ever accused of anything better kiss their kids goodbye.
I'm not just picking on one weak spot in the CPS's arguments, either. Their ENTIRE CASE for taking all the children at once relies on these kinds of assumptions. Read the court documents linked to this article, and you'll see it for yourself. The appeals court isn't buying that faulty line of reasoning, thank God.
DC | 5:08 p.m. May 24, 2008
To Wyogirl
2:43 called you judgmental because you demonstrated yourself to be. (2:43 was not me, but I would have said the same thing.) You made sweeping statements about people you have never met -- tarring all of them with one brush because of something you read on the internet about what someone else who also believes in their religion may have done -- and then have the gall to act offended and say you are simply trying to understand their theology.
To Transplant
Yes, to err is human, and I wouldn't argue that Walther should be disbarred or impeached. But she has shown herself to be a country judge in way over her head, and acting on the basis of prejudice and bias without evidence. The Appellate Court found that there simply was no evidence put forward in court to justify what she did, so the only basis she could have had was her own bigotry. Caring is admirable, but if you rip families apart because you care about their children when no one has given you any evidence that those children are in danger (which is what the Appellate Court found) then you have erred big time.
2:43 called you judgmental because you demonstrated yourself to be. (2:43 was not me, but I would have said the same thing.) You made sweeping statements about people you have never met -- tarring all of them with one brush because of something you read on the internet about what someone else who also believes in their religion may have done -- and then have the gall to act offended and say you are simply trying to understand their theology.
To Transplant
Yes, to err is human, and I wouldn't argue that Walther should be disbarred or impeached. But she has shown herself to be a country judge in way over her head, and acting on the basis of prejudice and bias without evidence. The Appellate Court found that there simply was no evidence put forward in court to justify what she did, so the only basis she could have had was her own bigotry. Caring is admirable, but if you rip families apart because you care about their children when no one has given you any evidence that those children are in danger (which is what the Appellate Court found) then you have erred big time.
Ing | 5:16 p.m. May 24, 2008
By the way, I'm not an FLDS supporter. They're weird and their
marriage practices are creepy, and their "prophet" is a certifiable
lunatic. They definitely have had at least a few underage
marriages/relationships, and the people involved in them and who orchestrated
them should be punished--as Warren Jeffs currently is.
HOWEVER, there is no proof that every child at their Texas compound is in imminent danger of sexual abuse, or any other kind of abuse. Growing up with a weird belief system in itself is not actual abuse. The possibility that some of the young girls there *might* at some time in the future follow their belief that having babies at a young age is okay does not justify taking ALL the children in that group away from their parents.
The article has a good quote from one of the lawyers--every day these children are separated from their parents, they are suffering emotional trauma.
I think the driving ethic in this situation, for the CPS, should be "first, do no harm." Weighing the trauma of forced separation against the danger of staying with their families... I think the CPS fails that test.
HOWEVER, there is no proof that every child at their Texas compound is in imminent danger of sexual abuse, or any other kind of abuse. Growing up with a weird belief system in itself is not actual abuse. The possibility that some of the young girls there *might* at some time in the future follow their belief that having babies at a young age is okay does not justify taking ALL the children in that group away from their parents.
The article has a good quote from one of the lawyers--every day these children are separated from their parents, they are suffering emotional trauma.
I think the driving ethic in this situation, for the CPS, should be "first, do no harm." Weighing the trauma of forced separation against the danger of staying with their families... I think the CPS fails that test.
XGI | 5:38 p.m. May 24, 2008
The phone call was a hoax
The birth certificates were real.
The mothers were lied to.
The mothers were of age.
Dale wasn�t there
Sarah and her baby are not there or anywhere
They did poke guns into the face of little children and fathers etc.
They wanted blood.
The judge said to keep siblings together but they didn�t
The only evidence is the religious belief
And now we are suppose to believe this picture is real?
It doesn�t prove that anyone had sex.
It don�t even prove that anyone was married.
The broken bone thing was just a headline grabber.
This picture is suppose to do the same. Oh wait this whole thing is to get at Warren Jeffs. OHHhhhh! It is Jeffs they are after. Big supprise!!!
The birth certificates were real.
The mothers were lied to.
The mothers were of age.
Dale wasn�t there
Sarah and her baby are not there or anywhere
They did poke guns into the face of little children and fathers etc.
They wanted blood.
The judge said to keep siblings together but they didn�t
The only evidence is the religious belief
And now we are suppose to believe this picture is real?
It doesn�t prove that anyone had sex.
It don�t even prove that anyone was married.
The broken bone thing was just a headline grabber.
This picture is suppose to do the same. Oh wait this whole thing is to get at Warren Jeffs. OHHhhhh! It is Jeffs they are after. Big supprise!!!
Rich | 5:44 p.m. May 24, 2008
I don't see how the CPS can comply with an order to return the children to
their parents if it can't be determined who the parents are. The
polygamists are obviously afraid of prosecution, not only for polygamy but also
for some underage marriages in the recent past. My view is that the state
should actively prosecute anybody found to have taken part in a polygamist
marriage, regardless of the age of the participants. The FLDS might win on
appeal, and then we would all know we could take second wives if we desired.
XGI | 5:44 p.m. May 24, 2008
They took them without any proof why can't they just put them back without
any proof ect. Give them BACK!
RE: DC | 5:49 p.m. May 24, 2008
Actually, DC, most people would have thought that she was only asking questions
about a religion.
wyogirl to DC | 6:01 p.m. May 24, 2008
I re-read my two posts with the questions I posed to FLDS members. Where did I
make sweeping judgements? I explained what I understood their theology to be
then asked if it was correct. When I listed things that I have seen, I listed
things that are well documented, not just written about on the internet.
I've SEEN polygamists at hotels in Nevada. Granted they didn't invite
me to the wedding ceremonies, but they do have a reputation of being secretive.
Maybe its the fences? Almost my entire post is questions. If I was judging
them I would say "you DID/DO/ARE this or that" not "this SEEMS to
be."
I stand by my questions - I know they were honestly asked. I hope someone who knows the answer can help me - understanding is the first step to acceptance.
I stand by my questions - I know they were honestly asked. I hope someone who knows the answer can help me - understanding is the first step to acceptance.
Sokol | 6:02 p.m. May 24, 2008
What does the photo of Jeff's have to do with the
individual cases in Eldorado? It is part of putting
all families and children together and treating them
as one. It is fascistic.
This is the sixth time I have posted and I think
as a paper you should value all related, pertinent
opinions. The First Amendment should matter.
individual cases in Eldorado? It is part of putting
all families and children together and treating them
as one. It is fascistic.
This is the sixth time I have posted and I think
as a paper you should value all related, pertinent
opinions. The First Amendment should matter.
Re: Sokol | 6:15 p.m. May 24, 2008
I guess for me, I never did realize that Warren Jeff's himself was a child
sex offender. I understood that he had conducted weddings for children. But now
that I understand, I am less likely to defend people who follow him.
Richard | 6:19 p.m. May 24, 2008
People keep talking about how can CPS return kids when they don't know who
the parents are - CPS does not seem to have any trouble figuring out who the
parents are to allow visits and make up "parent/child plans".
realitycheck | 6:20 p.m. May 24, 2008
The fact that the declared prophet of the religion is a convicted sex offender
puts to question whether the parents that follow him can prevent future child
abuse.
That fact, the pictures, the statements by members that they obey his commands, and other evidence, will be enough to overturn the appellate court ruling.
That fact, the pictures, the statements by members that they obey his commands, and other evidence, will be enough to overturn the appellate court ruling.
Old Geeser in Vegas | 6:23 p.m. May 24, 2008
It looks like the esteemed Judge Barbara Walther is going ahead with her
hearings even if the other judges are not. She just might need a few more
judges down there in Texas and we�ve got one here in Vegas
that would fit in with Judge Barbara Walther�s ideas and
she�s available as she isn�t allowed
in the courthouse here right now.
Just google �District Judge Elizabeth Halverson� and see what you think.
Oh well, it was just an idea. We sure don�t want her but Judge Walther might.
Just google �District Judge Elizabeth Halverson� and see what you think.
Oh well, it was just an idea. We sure don�t want her but Judge Walther might.
Sokol | 6:38 p.m. May 24, 2008
My position is that, granted I am not a follower
or am enamored with their life style, but they
do have rights. We have to treat these people
like human beings. They have a right to be
protected by our laws, not violated by them because
we disagree with them. They are treated harshly
and savagely by CPS.
or am enamored with their life style, but they
do have rights. We have to treat these people
like human beings. They have a right to be
protected by our laws, not violated by them because
we disagree with them. They are treated harshly
and savagely by CPS.
Politics and Religion | 6:46 p.m. May 24, 2008
"It has been said that politicians are the second oldest profession. The
longer I live the more they resemble the first oldest profession". Ronald
Reagan
I would only add that neither profession mixes well with most religions.
I would only add that neither profession mixes well with most religions.
Back to DC | 7:05 p.m. May 24, 2008
DC, as I read through the posts, I am finding that you have a conflict with
anyone who has any statement questioning why the parents of FLDS are behaving in
the manner that they are.
In general, if I may ask the question of what any reasonable parent would do...it seems that everyone is bashing CPS...if they have a child who is being sexually abused by their father and a report was made to CPS. What if CPS just said, Oh we can't get in the middle of that because it would harm the child more to remove the child from the home (if the other parent was not protective or thought there were no issues) than to leave them in the home with the perpetrator. Lets say you are a protective parent, but are told, Oh there's nothing we can do. Do you think you would be positive or negative toward CPS? They have a job to do and that is to protect children even from risk. I would rather they go in and protect all until things can be sorted out rather than take a wait and see attitude.
It is on the judges if something happens.
In general, if I may ask the question of what any reasonable parent would do...it seems that everyone is bashing CPS...if they have a child who is being sexually abused by their father and a report was made to CPS. What if CPS just said, Oh we can't get in the middle of that because it would harm the child more to remove the child from the home (if the other parent was not protective or thought there were no issues) than to leave them in the home with the perpetrator. Lets say you are a protective parent, but are told, Oh there's nothing we can do. Do you think you would be positive or negative toward CPS? They have a job to do and that is to protect children even from risk. I would rather they go in and protect all until things can be sorted out rather than take a wait and see attitude.
It is on the judges if something happens.
Politics | 7:05 p.m. May 24, 2008
This isn't about politics, this isn't about religious persecution.
This is about children being put in harms way. If there were not child
marriages going on, this would not be happening.
Sharon | 7:08 p.m. May 24, 2008
To WYOGIRL,
I knew exactly what you meant in your posts, but for some reason, there are those who like to twist your words and meanings around. There is no way in heck, I'd let any man treat me like I was beneath him, abuse me or try to take my identity away from me.Not only that...any man would have H**L to pay, if he ever tried to give my 13 year old daughter to an old pervert...because some phony prophet told him,its GOD's well.
I knew exactly what you meant in your posts, but for some reason, there are those who like to twist your words and meanings around. There is no way in heck, I'd let any man treat me like I was beneath him, abuse me or try to take my identity away from me.Not only that...any man would have H**L to pay, if he ever tried to give my 13 year old daughter to an old pervert...because some phony prophet told him,its GOD's well.
Bruce | 7:11 p.m. May 24, 2008
"The fact that the declared prophet of the religion is a convicted sex
offender puts to question whether the parents that follow him can prevent future
child abuse."
To use the Catholic analogy:
Can parents who follow a priest and teach their children to do the same prevent future child abuse if the priest is convicted of a crime?
Of course they can. The FLDS people are not the mindless, brainwashed drones that the boob-tube makes them out to be.
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned much is that the FLDS is indeed in a position of transition. Whether Warren Jeffs is recognized as leader very much longer is up in the air but those things take time. I think it was about 3 years between Joseph Smith's death and Brigham Young being recognized by the LDS.
To use the Catholic analogy:
Can parents who follow a priest and teach their children to do the same prevent future child abuse if the priest is convicted of a crime?
Of course they can. The FLDS people are not the mindless, brainwashed drones that the boob-tube makes them out to be.
Another thing that hasn't been mentioned much is that the FLDS is indeed in a position of transition. Whether Warren Jeffs is recognized as leader very much longer is up in the air but those things take time. I think it was about 3 years between Joseph Smith's death and Brigham Young being recognized by the LDS.
To Rich | 7:16 p.m. May 24, 2008
You are exactly right that the state cannot return children to anyone that
cannot be confirmed the parent. Would it be so hard to step up and say, yes that
is my child and I take responsibility? I agree with you that the parents are
afraid of prosecution, but that is just throwing the children under the bus.
Those children, if returned will disappear into the wind. When that happens it
cannot be CPS that has to take the blame, but the judges who sent them home.
realitycheck | 7:32 p.m. May 24, 2008
re - Bruce 7:11pm
I knew someone from FLDS would bring up priests. Which is a folly because no priest has ever stated that he abused a child in the name of his religion.
The FLDS do it in the name of their religion. They follow their prophet's directives no matter what, and their prophet is a convicted sex offender. No catholic is going to allow abuse if some priest tells them to. That's just a rediculous FLDS argument.
I knew someone from FLDS would bring up priests. Which is a folly because no priest has ever stated that he abused a child in the name of his religion.
The FLDS do it in the name of their religion. They follow their prophet's directives no matter what, and their prophet is a convicted sex offender. No catholic is going to allow abuse if some priest tells them to. That's just a rediculous FLDS argument.
Sharon | 7:35 p.m. May 24, 2008
BRUCE
You cant be serious...the boob-tube makes the FLDS look mindless , brainwashed drones...I about laughed myself silly over that one...
You cant be serious...the boob-tube makes the FLDS look mindless , brainwashed drones...I about laughed myself silly over that one...
COSMO | 7:54 p.m. May 24, 2008
Folks: relax, this will go to the Texas Supreme Court,and I hope they shove this
right up CPS's backside.
This was a witch hunt from the get go,no question
about that. As far as happy hips Warren, he is in jail,and I doubt that he will have much sway now.
I must say this,to Boiseguy, and Wyogirl; what is
the problem about walls, or a fence.Lots of homes
in this country have them, you know. Should we send
in the Goon Squads to check on any "Naughty Stuff"
going on predicated on a fence.As far as your wanting to understand the FLDS, get a book on their
history,and theology,along with the history of the
LDS church, and start reading. Asking former members
about a organization can be problematic, one may not
always be honest, and objective in their observation
,or perception, due to emotional interference.
However one thing is clear, and that is finding the
understanding you wish, on a blog will not give you
a factual picture of any group of people.
One last thing; Texas, let these people go!
This was a witch hunt from the get go,no question
about that. As far as happy hips Warren, he is in jail,and I doubt that he will have much sway now.
I must say this,to Boiseguy, and Wyogirl; what is
the problem about walls, or a fence.Lots of homes
in this country have them, you know. Should we send
in the Goon Squads to check on any "Naughty Stuff"
going on predicated on a fence.As far as your wanting to understand the FLDS, get a book on their
history,and theology,along with the history of the
LDS church, and start reading. Asking former members
about a organization can be problematic, one may not
always be honest, and objective in their observation
,or perception, due to emotional interference.
However one thing is clear, and that is finding the
understanding you wish, on a blog will not give you
a factual picture of any group of people.
One last thing; Texas, let these people go!
silverman | 8:12 p.m. May 24, 2008
Most of the people commenting here are NUTS. The children should not be allowed
to return to their families until EACH AND EVERY family member is investigated
and deemed competent. Why people would condone the return of children to
pedophiles? I am not saying they all are, but they need to be protected. Until
then, keep them where they are!
Glad and concerned | 8:37 p.m. May 24, 2008
I am overjoyed and thankful that the children will be reunited with their
mothers. However, I concur with nantz that it should now be clear to all FLDS
that sex with a minor is a serious crime. Texas should take steps to make it
easier for women to leave the compound if they so choose. Set up an abuse
hotline. Make it possible for the mothers to leave their husbands without having
to fear losing custody of their children. Provide an escape and support system
for girls who decide to leave rather than become a 3rd wife. There seems to be a
window of opportunity here to put some safeguards in place before everyone moves
back to the ranch.
wyogirl | 8:39 p.m. May 24, 2008
Cosmo. Can you tell me the name or names of books about the FLDS history and
theology. I've been interested in religion since I took a class on
religions of the world in college. I read books about the FLDS and the LDS for
years, but I have yet to find a book about the FLDS that is written by them, or
by a FLDS author. Please give me a title or name of an author and I'll
place another order on Amazon. The only copy of the Book of Mormon that I know
of is the LDS version - do the FLDS use the same book?
SLIPPERY-SLOPE | 8:51 p.m. May 24, 2008
==
TO AVOID THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT IS TO AVOID CIVIL LIBERTIES ARGUMENTS
QUOTE:
...Glen Lavy says that the California Supreme Court�s legal reasoning could be applied to polygamous marriages. [I week earlier I used this reasoning AGAINST the Texas CPS: polygamist children's slippery slope argument.]
QUOTE LOS ANGELES TIMES ARTICLE: THE SLIPPERY SLOPE with my comment here now added.
Signed: RECKIPS
==
TO AVOID THE SLIPPERY SLOPE ARGUMENT IS TO AVOID CIVIL LIBERTIES ARGUMENTS
QUOTE:
...Glen Lavy says that the California Supreme Court�s legal reasoning could be applied to polygamous marriages. [I week earlier I used this reasoning AGAINST the Texas CPS: polygamist children's slippery slope argument.]
QUOTE LOS ANGELES TIMES ARTICLE: THE SLIPPERY SLOPE with my comment here now added.
Signed: RECKIPS
==
Bruce | 8:58 p.m. May 24, 2008
I submit that if a person really wants to know about a particular
religions' beliefs, abuses/lack thereof, etc., that they should ask those
who are happy, content, and seem knowledgable that are living the faith in
question.
I would also submit that a good way to get the wrong idea would be to formulate an opinion based on what television tells you or what vindictive people who can't/won't live up to the requirements of a particular religion and leave tell you.
Especially if they have books to sell or ratings to uphold.
" No catholic is going to allow abuse if some priest tells them to. "
I can think of a lot of abused boys who might disagree with you on that one.
I would also submit that a good way to get the wrong idea would be to formulate an opinion based on what television tells you or what vindictive people who can't/won't live up to the requirements of a particular religion and leave tell you.
Especially if they have books to sell or ratings to uphold.
" No catholic is going to allow abuse if some priest tells them to. "
I can think of a lot of abused boys who might disagree with you on that one.
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What I see: Marriages performed secretly in seedy motels. Some followers allowed/encouraged to have sex with multiple partners, while others are forbidden to do the same. Family relationships ended and women and children �assigned� to other men. Mothers destroying evidence of their children�s parentage, children taught to lie about who their parents are, women lying about who their husbands are. These actions seem to make a mockery of family relationships .
Please explain the theology that condones this behavior.