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Texas appeals to state Supreme Court in FLDS case
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get comfortable, folks | 10:36 a.m. May 23, 2008
this is going to take awhile
Surprise, Surprise | 10:44 a.m. May 23, 2008
Too many in the Texas CPS system have staked their reputations on this case to
give up now.
However, the longer they draw this out, the larger the damages will be in the end.
However, the longer they draw this out, the larger the damages will be in the end.
MANY | 10:52 a.m. May 23, 2008
THREE CHEERS TO THE CPS, FIGHT FOR YOUR JOB DESCRIPTION WHICH YOU HONORED, AND
FIX PROBLEMS AS YOU GO. WHAT A JOB JUST LINING UP KIDS TO WHICH MOTHER!!
YOU'VE HAD A TOUGH JOB!!
Comments continue below
Good grief! | 10:52 a.m. May 23, 2008
I guess this is a new government lesson reminder to me. I seem to have
forgotten that you can appeal and appeal. What a waste of the court system.
Unbelievable. Those poor kids.
pigiron | 10:56 a.m. May 23, 2008
Three cheers indeed..The FLDS should start filing law suits right now. CPS is
the renegade sect out of control. They need to be completely disbanded.
berlinbunker | 11:02 a.m. May 23, 2008
CPS and Walther have lost and will be disgraced. It's only a matter of
time. CPS is buying time, while all but the blind can see the inevitable.
Im glad they did | 11:02 a.m. May 23, 2008
The Facts are not going to change any, if they were wrong here they will be
wrong there, all CPS is doing is making there downfall greater
Chris | 11:02 a.m. May 23, 2008
Those poor kids. The CPS is completely out of control with no consequences to
their actions other than bad for any family that gets in the way of their
agenda.
Denise | 11:03 a.m. May 23, 2008
The abuse of power continues.
Eddy Keen | 11:05 a.m. May 23, 2008
We need to keep 'those poor kids' out of the YFZ prison camp. Reunite
them with their mothers. Gitmo them, even, to avoid process entirely (that is,
after all, why gitmo exists) but do whatever it takes to finally say that
everything does NOT go in the name of religion.
to MANY | 11:05 a.m. May 23, 2008
Can you note write in small caps? Computer broke? It is annoying to read but
your comment is even worse than your broken computer. Hope you are being
sarcastic and not serious.
The job would have been easier would they have had search warrants for each house and treated the women with respect and not like criminals. If the police would have raided my house like a drug haven with heavy police force, I wouldn't have helped them either until I had a chance to talk to an attorney, which they did not have. Remember, CPS even took their cell phones from the FLDS women so nobody would see the abuse caused by the CPS! The FLDS women have been treated like criminals from the get go without proof of any wrong doing.
CPS are the criminals and need to be prosecuted. Let the children go home!
The job would have been easier would they have had search warrants for each house and treated the women with respect and not like criminals. If the police would have raided my house like a drug haven with heavy police force, I wouldn't have helped them either until I had a chance to talk to an attorney, which they did not have. Remember, CPS even took their cell phones from the FLDS women so nobody would see the abuse caused by the CPS! The FLDS women have been treated like criminals from the get go without proof of any wrong doing.
CPS are the criminals and need to be prosecuted. Let the children go home!
realitycheck | 11:07 a.m. May 23, 2008
Texas should just cut their losses and give back the kids. You can lead a horse
to water but you can't make him drink.
At least the FLDS men now know what it is like to have your kids taken from you (which they do every time they "reassign" women and children to another man).
At least the FLDS men now know what it is like to have your kids taken from you (which they do every time they "reassign" women and children to another man).
ThunderBulldog | 11:07 a.m. May 23, 2008
When an LDS Church gets fire bombed, the FBI comes in looking for someone to
prosecute on Hate Crime charges. I'm wondering why the Justice Department
or ACLU aren't charging Texas CPS and their Governor for a Hate Crime along
with Flora Jessop's nightly spewing of Venom.
Thomas | 11:09 a.m. May 23, 2008
Send the children home. Stop the CPS from abusing children.
Many More (without shouting) | 11:10 a.m. May 23, 2008
Texas CPS is bound and determined to cover every poor decision with an even
poorer one. I have to wonder how Texas tax payers like footing the bill to
cover an agency's poor judgement. It's obvious at this point that
this agency is more concerned with their own wounded pride that they are about
the welfare of the children involved.
MDC | 11:15 a.m. May 23, 2008
Question: If the appeals court decision is upheld, doesn't all the
evidence obtained as a result of the seizure get thrown out? So, if there
actually was abuse and the appeals court decision is upheld; the CPS's
zealotry actually ruined any chances of prosecuting?
No wonder they are appealing. Talk about incompetence.
No wonder they are appealing. Talk about incompetence.
COSMO | 11:20 a.m. May 23, 2008
Texas CPS, is fighting for a budget increase,and all
those children sold on the adoption market will bring a tidy sum.It all comes down to Money & Power.
those children sold on the adoption market will bring a tidy sum.It all comes down to Money & Power.
So we do nothing/not our problem | 11:20 a.m. May 23, 2008
As a teacher I find the erosion of parental rights very troubling, although I am
not a parent myself. For those of you thinking this is an FLDS issue only, check
your local schools - these people routinely give presentations to your children
to look for signs that their parents might be abusive. Yes, physical and sexual
abuse needs to be identified and stopped, but mixed in with this I witnessed 1st
grade children being taught in a Granite district Elementary school that even
facial expressions and tone of voice are forms of child abuse. No, don't
ever think these people target your children. And by all means, when you hear of
someone's child being taken by CPS somewhere don't question whether
it's based on lies; then again your child might benext.
Wold War II | 11:28 a.m. May 23, 2008
The CPA rats in Texas remind me of the Government placing Japanese Americans in
concentration camps.
I hope the lawsuits bankrupts Texas. Then maybe the Baptist Church will have to bail them out.
I hope the lawsuits bankrupts Texas. Then maybe the Baptist Church will have to bail them out.
To: MDC | 11:33 a.m. May 23, 2008
The evidence probably will not be thrown out, because the issue before the
appellate courts was whether or not the CPS had established that the FLDS
children were in such "imminent danger" that the only option was to
forcibly remove them. The Texas Court of Appeals held that CPS had not
established that removal was justified. The admissibility of evidence was not
at issue.
The abuse allegations will probably continue, and the CPS may prosecute individuals. If the ruling stands, the children may be returned, but the investigation may continue.
That being said, CPS is foolish to keep trying. It should be obvious that they have not established their case that the children were in "imminent harm." They should take advantage of the ruling, and return the children. They would still be able to investigate, and the local District Court would retain jurisdiction over the children and their parents. The case could move more quietly (which is better for everyone involved, particularly the children), and more effectively, because all evidence and arguments can be thoughtfully and thorougly considered.
The abuse allegations will probably continue, and the CPS may prosecute individuals. If the ruling stands, the children may be returned, but the investigation may continue.
That being said, CPS is foolish to keep trying. It should be obvious that they have not established their case that the children were in "imminent harm." They should take advantage of the ruling, and return the children. They would still be able to investigate, and the local District Court would retain jurisdiction over the children and their parents. The case could move more quietly (which is better for everyone involved, particularly the children), and more effectively, because all evidence and arguments can be thoughtfully and thorougly considered.
Brillo | 11:34 a.m. May 23, 2008
Maybe Texas is hoping to keeping appealing until the children all turn 18.
Everything is just talk until busloads of kids starting going back to their
mothers.
deb | 11:46 a.m. May 23, 2008
Praise the Lord that the legal process has been started and maybe this country
still has a bit of justice left.The courts are proving that all the allegations
were LIES to destroy a religious group. That the raid was unconstitutional and
CPS needs legal actions taken against them. Get those precious children back
into their loving mothers arms so that surrounded by a mother's
unconditional love they can start to heal from the abuse of CPS and foster care.
I guessed wrong | 11:51 a.m. May 23, 2008
I would have guessed that Texas wouldn't appeal. They have an expensive
tiger by the tale, based on a hoax phone call. Here is their chance to let go
with a modicum of a fig leaf, and they throw the opportunity away.
I knew it | 11:50 a.m. May 23, 2008
This aint over yet...I knew it was too early for the FLDS to start
celebrating.
The kids are the ultimate losers here. They won't win either way - being in foster care or on the FLDS compound.
The kids are the ultimate losers here. They won't win either way - being in foster care or on the FLDS compound.
Texas CPS at it AGAIN | 11:50 a.m. May 23, 2008
THSC (on line) reported that this week Texas CPS once AGAIN are violating the
Fourth Admendment rights. Children ran to their front yard to call after the dog
that got loose. A woman in a car stopped and told the children they should not
be outside. She then called local police. TEXAS CPS HAD THE POLICE FORCE THEIR
WAY IN and GRAB THE CHILDREN BECAUSE THE CHILDREN WERE IN " IMMEDIATE
PHYSCIAL DANGER". They are NOT learning and they need to stop! They have
gone crazy..literally!
Sokol | 11:51 a.m. May 23, 2008
The attempted appeal by CPS is disgusting. These
are people fighting for their jobs. They lost.
They tried to treat hundreds of families as if they
were one family. They need a stay before the judges
order remains..I found it ironic that the buses
used to haul the children away were from the First
Baptist Church in near by Eldorado. I think their
is religous bigotry going on in Texas.
are people fighting for their jobs. They lost.
They tried to treat hundreds of families as if they
were one family. They need a stay before the judges
order remains..I found it ironic that the buses
used to haul the children away were from the First
Baptist Church in near by Eldorado. I think their
is religous bigotry going on in Texas.
James | 11:56 a.m. May 23, 2008
CYA is all this appeal business is about. However, it will not work this time.
The whole world is aware of Texas CPS ineptness in this matter and will be
cheering for FLDS when they sue the State of Texas.
CPS needs a reorg. | 11:56 a.m. May 23, 2008
These mothers and children have already been traumatized for life by CPS and the
military raid and I am sad to say now have a good reason to fear people outside
their community. These mothers and children need to be back together and CPS
needs to be reorganized. They have already wasted millions on their persecution
of these people. Clearly the call that started this all was a hoax and it has
been almost 2 months and the only thing that seems pervasive to me is the amount
of disinformation CPS is willing to use. Now it comes to light that of the
supposed 31 pregnant or underage mothers 15 of them are actually adults with on
turning 28 in less than two weeks. CPS has also admitted that at least one of
the young women is not really pregnant and does not have a child. It seems to me
that CPS knows they made a mistake and understands now that the call was a hoax
but they are willing to do just about anything to cover their own buts and in
the process they are not truly interested in the best intrest of those children.
Jerry | 11:58 a.m. May 23, 2008
What a tremendous blunder on the part of the Texas CPS. They went after the
women and children. I think Arizona and Utah have taken the right course. They
are going after the men who are ultimately responsible for this mess with
support organizations for the women who choose to leave the plural marriage
groups.
Steve | 12:07 p.m. May 23, 2008
The whole thing reminds me of Waco. The Texas CPS has something to do with that
raid too, but the FDLS did not shoot back.
CPS and agencies all over the USA need to be closely looked at. This is a tragedy.
CPS and agencies all over the USA need to be closely looked at. This is a tragedy.
Sokol | 12:14 p.m. May 23, 2008
Yes, Jerry it is always the father's fault. It's
easy to say, when you have none of the facts. The
consistant war on fathering and gender bias against dads goes on everyday in our family courts. Let us just band together for once and see who the real villains are: politically correct social workers from CPS/CYFD, judges with too much power, and attorneys making bundles of money off the misery of families.
easy to say, when you have none of the facts. The
consistant war on fathering and gender bias against dads goes on everyday in our family courts. Let us just band together for once and see who the real villains are: politically correct social workers from CPS/CYFD, judges with too much power, and attorneys making bundles of money off the misery of families.
Kathy Baumgarten | 12:17 p.m. May 23, 2008
Okay folks, either polygamy is illegal, or it isn't. America isn't a
smorgasboard where you can pick and choose what laws you want to obey. If
we're going to tell Muslims that they can't have their driver's
license photo taken with their burka on, then we have to be fair and prosecute
eveyrone who's breaking our marriage laws. Either underage marriage is
illegal, or it isn't. Pick your sides folks. Do you uphold the law, or do
you think like Catch-22 "they have the right to do anything we can't
stop them from doing"?
Most crimes take place in private, and if any agency wants to catch lawbreakers, they need to go in.
Having said this, as soon as they found out what mothers belonged to what kids, CPS should have let the adult mothers and kids go and let law enforcement take care of the polygamy thing later. Then that would leave them with the underage mothers, which is CPS proper area.
Most crimes take place in private, and if any agency wants to catch lawbreakers, they need to go in.
Having said this, as soon as they found out what mothers belonged to what kids, CPS should have let the adult mothers and kids go and let law enforcement take care of the polygamy thing later. Then that would leave them with the underage mothers, which is CPS proper area.
Donate now ? | 12:21 p.m. May 23, 2008
Just when we thought it was over. Well, there is still that donate page on
captivefldschildren dot org. There is still time to make your statement. The
alternative is to stand by and cheer. That's easy. That the best we can do
?
Go CPS, disband FLDS cult | 12:23 p.m. May 23, 2008
Come on now, everyone knows that polygamy is wrong and disgusting. The FLDS is
just a another large cult, it seems that Texas likes those kinds of things
there. I also think CPS did what they should have done. If one child was
mistreated what makes you think none of the other were not. It is just a sucky
situation no matter how you look at it.
TX Mom & Lawyer | 12:26 p.m. May 23, 2008
I doubt very seriously that CPS will be successful in their appeal, and frankly
I'm surprised they're pursuing it. Each family needs to be decided on
a case by case basis--period. It's the only fair (and legal) way to handle
this. I abhore many of the practices of the FLDS and, unlike many others
posting here, I absolutely think something needs to be done about them to
protect women and children--unfortunately this was not the right something and
has only added fuel to FLDS propaganda and fear tactics which are used to keep
its members under control. I'm sure if the kids are returned, Warren Jeffs
will take full credit...too bad Jesus didn't return when he and one of his
wives were arrested without their long underwear on!
HD | 12:28 p.m. May 23, 2008
The Texas CPS came into the FLDS facility ready for anything that they may come
up agianst them. Yes, history has pointed out the fact that similar religious
groups have been more heavily armed than thought at first. Texas has experienced
this in the past at Waco. So those of you who forgot about previous events need
to read your history. I for one do support the judicial process. It does benefit
all in the end. This is why all of these issues need to be played out. I have
stressed this many times that if the FLDS adults would have simply stepped up
and provided honest answers about families this would not have grown to the
giant issue it is today. While the CPS took drastic measures, we all have to
understand that the FLDS so-called prophet is sitting in jail for the exact
problem that the CPS came in to investigate. Take the blinders off, where there
is smoke there is fire. This is not about religion but focuses on practices that
are detrimental to children and others. Let's get all of the facts on the
table before final judgement.
Chris | 12:29 p.m. May 23, 2008
did you read that appeal to the supreme court? they are all over the play
arguing everything and pointing to every expert. They did not address the
underlying facts that you can't charge a whole community with what one
household did or did not do. I'll wait to see how this unfolds in Texas,
but ironically, it looks like they are throwing the whole plate of goo against
the wall, hoping something will stick.
DC | 12:30 p.m. May 23, 2008
To "Kathy Baumgarten"
The legal issue here is much more complex than you imply. Yes, we must all obey the law -- but not those that are unconstitutional. And yes, the current Supreme Court would most likely defend state laws regulating formal marriage, even though the Court has struck down state laws regulating adult sex outside of marriage. But the polygamous couples here are not formally married, and Texas's "informal" marriage law � with history showing it was amended specifically to target the FLDS -- *will* be constitutionally problematic if applied to adult couples. But if Texas goes the other route, and prosecutes adult men for the isolated cases of unmarried sex with girls under 18, they will have a problem because the girls were above the age at which they could be married with their parents' consent in Texas. The only reason they're not married is because of the law against polygamy -- a religious belief. So Texas can�t claim that they�re just protecting children, because it says the same relationship is OK provided it isn�t done in polygamy, which means the law is targeting religion. Your black and white stance is just not applicable.
The legal issue here is much more complex than you imply. Yes, we must all obey the law -- but not those that are unconstitutional. And yes, the current Supreme Court would most likely defend state laws regulating formal marriage, even though the Court has struck down state laws regulating adult sex outside of marriage. But the polygamous couples here are not formally married, and Texas's "informal" marriage law � with history showing it was amended specifically to target the FLDS -- *will* be constitutionally problematic if applied to adult couples. But if Texas goes the other route, and prosecutes adult men for the isolated cases of unmarried sex with girls under 18, they will have a problem because the girls were above the age at which they could be married with their parents' consent in Texas. The only reason they're not married is because of the law against polygamy -- a religious belief. So Texas can�t claim that they�re just protecting children, because it says the same relationship is OK provided it isn�t done in polygamy, which means the law is targeting religion. Your black and white stance is just not applicable.
freethinker | 12:31 p.m. May 23, 2008
This may not be over, I saw on website from Austin, TX that one of the reasons
CPS is appealing the new order is that great damage will be done to the Texas
CPS if the order to release the children is allowed to stand.
WELL DUH
WELL DUH
To Go CPS, disband FLDS cult | 12:31 p.m. May 23, 2008
EVERYBODY knows that polygamy is wrong and disgusting? Quite a wide blanket you
are throwing out. That would be like saying EVERYBODY knows that homosexual
marrigaes are wrong and disgusting. The Supreme Courts of two states disagree.
It seems to me that there is better justification for polygamy to become legal
than it would be for homosexual marrigages to stay (become more) lege
FLDS marry teenagers | 12:32 p.m. May 23, 2008
We still have not heard the FLDS deny that minors marry adults, or will stop
this pratice. CPS messed this up real bad, but, who is going to protect the
children now?
real | 12:36 p.m. May 23, 2008
Start the "WELFARE FRAUD,-CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS"
now!!!!!.......Oh wait,....they allready have. Stay tuned.
moniker | 12:38 p.m. May 23, 2008
Steve, You're right on.
More than one social agency has been hijacked by people with their own issues who go on crusades rather than following clear legal guidelines. I remember some years back when a social worker was leading chidren, using a doll, and suggesting what to say. Fortunately people caught on to that.
I think this has been the "perfect storm" that lined up an agency(CPS) and court(Walther) that had the same personal issues, resulting in an obvious debacle.
Sadly, this may ultimately destroy CPS ability to prosecute any real perpetrators. It was the men they were after, but, instead, improperly held the women and children hostage for leverage. Someone on the list referred to it as a kind of "Gitmo"
So far there are only 5 legitimate cases among almost 500 children. That's only one per hundred. I'll bet my own, non-polygamous, community doesn't have any less abused kids per hundred, and maybe more.
More than one social agency has been hijacked by people with their own issues who go on crusades rather than following clear legal guidelines. I remember some years back when a social worker was leading chidren, using a doll, and suggesting what to say. Fortunately people caught on to that.
I think this has been the "perfect storm" that lined up an agency(CPS) and court(Walther) that had the same personal issues, resulting in an obvious debacle.
Sadly, this may ultimately destroy CPS ability to prosecute any real perpetrators. It was the men they were after, but, instead, improperly held the women and children hostage for leverage. Someone on the list referred to it as a kind of "Gitmo"
So far there are only 5 legitimate cases among almost 500 children. That's only one per hundred. I'll bet my own, non-polygamous, community doesn't have any less abused kids per hundred, and maybe more.
America is a Cult | 12:44 p.m. May 23, 2008
Some people would like us to believe that anyone that is different is evil, if
that�s the case every American is evil, as we are all
different form each other. True American Patriots would Pride in being different
as that is what defines Freedom, the FLDS should be free to believe however they
choose, and free to leave me alone and let me believe how I choose.
DC | 12:44 p.m. May 23, 2008
Anyone know of a link yet to the actual appeal document filed by Texas CPS?
I'd like to know how they're trying to justify themselves -- and since
it's hard to imagine what they could reasonably say, there's no
recourse but to read it.
lds CONVERT | 12:45 p.m. May 23, 2008
I would like to know why my post was not put in? I am LDS convert that was
molested as a boy.....DO I NOT HAVE THE RIGHT TO AN OPINION HERE DES NEWS?
FLDS | 12:48 p.m. May 23, 2008
I don't agree with polygamy, and especially the way they have started
marrying younger girls. That can't be justified. BUT, I live in Southern
Utah, and have seen the families out and about. They take VERY good care of
their children...it's simple. The abuse is in the young girls being
married off to older men. But not all of them are married off at a young age.
Not all of them are married to older men. You just can't group the lot of
them together.
Now the leaders, they are the ones who need serious reform, and I bet they know it. They might lie to themselves, but deep down they know it.
Now the leaders, they are the ones who need serious reform, and I bet they know it. They might lie to themselves, but deep down they know it.
To FLDS Marry teenagers | 12:55 p.m. May 23, 2008
Good Question! Who will protect the children now?? Maybe we should ask those
folks who keep posting hate messages for the CPS calling them Nazis to come down
to Texas and volunteer!
ypman | 1:04 p.m. May 23, 2008
I say keep appealing if for no other reason than to keep these children from
suffering more abuse at the hand of their so called "parents". If
these people were devil worshipers or practicing witchcraft no one would be
calling for the children's return. What they are doing is just as
dangerous. Simply because they claim to be doing things as directed by a
supreme being does not make it right.
Even if they are not being sexually abused raising children in dormitory situations with several other mothers via spiritual marriage is much more damaging than what Texas CPS is doing.
Even if they are not being sexually abused raising children in dormitory situations with several other mothers via spiritual marriage is much more damaging than what Texas CPS is doing.
court has Evidence of Incest | 1:22 p.m. May 23, 2008
The hearings were hobbled by mix ups like this one:
David Barlow Steed came to Texas to help support his sister, Lori,whose child is now in state custody. When he arrived at the courthouse, a baliff wrote his name on charging papers identifying him as the father of his sister's child.
Just like that, Steed, who has never lived in Texas or been to the YFZ Ranch, found himself embroiled in the case. Weatherby planned to sign a document releasing Steed from the case Thursday afternoon.
I hope he go that signed off before they canceled the whole circus. If not, he is stillrecorded as the father of his sister's children.
David Barlow Steed came to Texas to help support his sister, Lori,whose child is now in state custody. When he arrived at the courthouse, a baliff wrote his name on charging papers identifying him as the father of his sister's child.
Just like that, Steed, who has never lived in Texas or been to the YFZ Ranch, found himself embroiled in the case. Weatherby planned to sign a document releasing Steed from the case Thursday afternoon.
I hope he go that signed off before they canceled the whole circus. If not, he is stillrecorded as the father of his sister's children.
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