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Plans for FLDS families are not so individual
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Thomas | 12:12 a.m. May 15, 2008
The CPS is drunk with power. Somebody somewhere must restrain them. These
service plans amount to the attempted destruction of a religion.
cheese | 12:34 a.m. May 15, 2008
And cps accuses us of lying?
Christina | 1:04 a.m. May 15, 2008
CPS needs to be extremely hands on if those poor kids go back. I would also put
in there the children must attend public school.
Comments continue below
Dee | 1:19 a.m. May 15, 2008
Thomas pleeeeeze
Not So Fast | 1:28 a.m. May 15, 2008
"CPS says a large number of girls, ages 14-17, have children, are pregnant
or both."
More carefully crafted wording by CPS. OK, no one should be in favor of teenagers getting pregnant against their will if the implications are true, etc. etc. but these statements from CPS have the ring of child abusers accusing others of child abuse to distract from their crimes. But are they applying the same standards to girls and children in the public sector and gang infested inner cities who are dealing with far worse abuse and crime? Of course not, but why would it make sense to send in a criminal agency to police these areas anyway? You would never have have one of these Nazi spokepeople have the audacity to make similar statements about other groups, particularly those of minority races, because then the bigotry would be more apparent to the American public.
More carefully crafted wording by CPS. OK, no one should be in favor of teenagers getting pregnant against their will if the implications are true, etc. etc. but these statements from CPS have the ring of child abusers accusing others of child abuse to distract from their crimes. But are they applying the same standards to girls and children in the public sector and gang infested inner cities who are dealing with far worse abuse and crime? Of course not, but why would it make sense to send in a criminal agency to police these areas anyway? You would never have have one of these Nazi spokepeople have the audacity to make similar statements about other groups, particularly those of minority races, because then the bigotry would be more apparent to the American public.
Robert | 1:40 a.m. May 15, 2008
Christina | 1:04 a.m. May 15, 2008 said "CPS needs to be extremely hands on
if those poor kids go back. I would also put in there the children must attend
public school."
And by what right can the State tell one particular group of people that they are NOT allowed to home school their children if the laws in that State allow home schooling?
That is the trouble with this whole mess. The rights of the individual. CPS is stepping all over their rights - and that is always the downfall. In this case PARTICULAR, they needed to be compassionate, careful, follow every regulation, cross every T and dot every I.
When they failed to do that, they allowed themselves to be used as propaganda by the FLDS and set correcting the abuses of the FLDS back.
Once again, I commend Utah and Arizona for taking a different approach. So Texas takes all their kids... they can always make more. What good did that do in the long run?
And by what right can the State tell one particular group of people that they are NOT allowed to home school their children if the laws in that State allow home schooling?
That is the trouble with this whole mess. The rights of the individual. CPS is stepping all over their rights - and that is always the downfall. In this case PARTICULAR, they needed to be compassionate, careful, follow every regulation, cross every T and dot every I.
When they failed to do that, they allowed themselves to be used as propaganda by the FLDS and set correcting the abuses of the FLDS back.
Once again, I commend Utah and Arizona for taking a different approach. So Texas takes all their kids... they can always make more. What good did that do in the long run?
GAL50 | 1:41 a.m. May 15, 2008
This is going to be very interesting. CPS had to remove all of the children
because it was impossible to identify which children belonged to which parents.
So, some of the children are from young families where no polygamy and no abuse exists. These families if well-represented may get their children back relatively quickly and then later on down the road, these children may be at risk for abuse.
Then there are children living with polygamous parents. Polygamy as practiced in other sects doesn't equate to child abuse, but the way Jeffs has set it up with the eviction of the boys and the early marriage of the girls, it almost does. Plus, it is criminal behavior. One might think that the answer to polygamy, would be to jail the male and possibly the surplus wives. Thus, perhaps the children should be returned at least upon separation of the wives.
Then you have the families in which sexual and physical abuse has occurred and in those, the children should be removed. The catch in this is that some of those families are in Arizona/Utah and only the girl has been shipped off for marriage.
This week will be interesting.
So, some of the children are from young families where no polygamy and no abuse exists. These families if well-represented may get their children back relatively quickly and then later on down the road, these children may be at risk for abuse.
Then there are children living with polygamous parents. Polygamy as practiced in other sects doesn't equate to child abuse, but the way Jeffs has set it up with the eviction of the boys and the early marriage of the girls, it almost does. Plus, it is criminal behavior. One might think that the answer to polygamy, would be to jail the male and possibly the surplus wives. Thus, perhaps the children should be returned at least upon separation of the wives.
Then you have the families in which sexual and physical abuse has occurred and in those, the children should be removed. The catch in this is that some of those families are in Arizona/Utah and only the girl has been shipped off for marriage.
This week will be interesting.
Contrarian | 1:41 a.m. May 15, 2008
A better place to put CPS police would be at all the abortion clinics in Texas
that provide the 400+ abortions to girls under fifteen every year.
All girls who look like they are under seventeen should be forced to give their names, proof of age, as well as the name, age, and marital status of the male rapist; in addition, the names and address of her parents so that any younger siblings of the girl can be removed to prevent the girls from becoming victims and the boys from becoming perpetrators. Routine DNA sampling should be done on all fetuses, the alleged rapist, and the girl's father to rule out incest.
All girls who look like they are under seventeen should be forced to give their names, proof of age, as well as the name, age, and marital status of the male rapist; in addition, the names and address of her parents so that any younger siblings of the girl can be removed to prevent the girls from becoming victims and the boys from becoming perpetrators. Routine DNA sampling should be done on all fetuses, the alleged rapist, and the girl's father to rule out incest.
Tina | 1:45 a.m. May 15, 2008
Christina,
Exactly why should the children be sent to public schools? I've been following this story very closely, and I haven't heard ONE HINT even that there has been any educational neglect at all! On the contrary, the reports I've read is that the children are ahead of their peers educationally. They seem to have a top-notch education system going at least, which isn't costing the tax-payers a cent by the way.
Everyone's complaining that these people are on all kinds of assistance, yet now you are suggesting we put them on MORE public assistance by putting them into public schools just so they can get a second class education. These children would be eaten alive in the "law of the jungle" public schools. They would be teased, verbally abused, picked on, beat up, and otherwise ostracized.
What are you thinking? Public school is the last place in the world these children should be.
Exactly why should the children be sent to public schools? I've been following this story very closely, and I haven't heard ONE HINT even that there has been any educational neglect at all! On the contrary, the reports I've read is that the children are ahead of their peers educationally. They seem to have a top-notch education system going at least, which isn't costing the tax-payers a cent by the way.
Everyone's complaining that these people are on all kinds of assistance, yet now you are suggesting we put them on MORE public assistance by putting them into public schools just so they can get a second class education. These children would be eaten alive in the "law of the jungle" public schools. They would be teased, verbally abused, picked on, beat up, and otherwise ostracized.
What are you thinking? Public school is the last place in the world these children should be.
Hoosier | 3:16 a.m. May 15, 2008
To Thomas: Actually it was Warren Jeffs who was drunk with power. As absolute
power corrupts absolutely Warren became corrupt and turned the flds into a
personality cult.
Thomas | 3:57 a.m. May 15, 2008
Dee PLEEZE The CPS is essentialy reQuring these parents to move out of the ranch
and renounce their religion. Lay down your prejudices and look at the truth.
They seized every child these people has based on allegations of a handful of
underage marriages.
avengeance | 4:53 a.m. May 15, 2008
The existance of the service plans shows that CPS did, in fact, violoate the
rights of each child and each parent when each child and each parent was not
given an individual hearing justifying removal of the child from the parent
within 14 days. Since the illegal actions of CPS started on that first 14 days,
it's logical to assume they've been doing a lot of illegal things from
day 1.
FLDS needs to kidnap all these abusive CPS workers, and force THEM to agree to "service plans" admitting their guilt in the pervasive pattern of abuse under their care.
FLDS needs to kidnap all these abusive CPS workers, and force THEM to agree to "service plans" admitting their guilt in the pervasive pattern of abuse under their care.
Protect the Kids | 5:08 a.m. May 15, 2008
CPS is doing their best to protect the kids from abuse; the FLDS didn't
have any interest in protecting the kids from abuse.
Rednael | 5:31 a.m. May 15, 2008
Yea, Christina. Put them all in public school and the girls can get pregnant
there, and pick up an STD to boot! At least it would be government approved.
Ray | 5:37 a.m. May 15, 2008
Next time a 14-year-old girl shows up at any Texas high school pregnant, they
now have legal precidence to call the whole school one household and take away
every kid from every family! Watch out, Texas! It's just starting!!
sosueme534 | 6:16 a.m. May 15, 2008
I am still so amazed that the public outrage has not forced the cps in texas to
give those children back to their families. Maybe we need to stop watching tv
and turn off our radios and stop buying any products from anyone except
necessairy food, until these peoples constitutional rights are respected by
texas cps and courts. If we don't start a mass protest we will ourselves
have no rights when this is over. Pray for a mass protest and help get it
started money is what will bring this to an end.
Bot | 6:24 a.m. May 15, 2008
Christina, no state has the right to insist that children be educated in a
public school. That's the sort of statism practiced in Germany, and was
briefly attempted in California.
The locals in Eldorado were worried about the FLDS taking over the county, so State Rep. Harvey Hilderbran sponsored a bill in 2005 that raised the legal age of consent to marry in Texas from 14 to 16. This was specifically targeted against the FLDS. When the FLDS moved to Texas the legal age was 14.
Note how the Texas Child Protective Service implies that 18 is the legal age. The CPS can�t be trusted and can�t be trusted with foster children. Two-thirds of their foster children are on mind-altering drugs. Wouldn�t the FLDS children be better off if they were returned to their mothers. Prosecute the men who fathered children with �wives� 15 or less and let the others alone.
I believe the diabolical outcome of Lawrence v Texas by the U.S. Supreme Court ensures that polygamy will be found legal � so polygamy cannot be legally outlawed
The locals in Eldorado were worried about the FLDS taking over the county, so State Rep. Harvey Hilderbran sponsored a bill in 2005 that raised the legal age of consent to marry in Texas from 14 to 16. This was specifically targeted against the FLDS. When the FLDS moved to Texas the legal age was 14.
Note how the Texas Child Protective Service implies that 18 is the legal age. The CPS can�t be trusted and can�t be trusted with foster children. Two-thirds of their foster children are on mind-altering drugs. Wouldn�t the FLDS children be better off if they were returned to their mothers. Prosecute the men who fathered children with �wives� 15 or less and let the others alone.
I believe the diabolical outcome of Lawrence v Texas by the U.S. Supreme Court ensures that polygamy will be found legal � so polygamy cannot be legally outlawed
California foster mom | 6:48 a.m. May 15, 2008
Re - Robert | 1:40 a.m. May 15, 2008 "So Texas takes all their kids...
they can always make more."
If the FLDS have their parental rights terminated to these children, CPS will probably remove children born to them in the future as well.
If you're getting ready to flame me please know that I'm not making a value statement about the appropriateness of that action, just passing along information that many people in the general public may not be aware of.
If the FLDS have their parental rights terminated to these children, CPS will probably remove children born to them in the future as well.
If you're getting ready to flame me please know that I'm not making a value statement about the appropriateness of that action, just passing along information that many people in the general public may not be aware of.
Anti Caesar | 6:50 a.m. May 15, 2008
Like most cults, the FLDS feel that they are above the law.
Polygamy, child rape, child abandonment, welfare fraud, kidnapping, false imprisonment, stealing families, and incest are all practices that are AGAINST THE LAW, but are fully accepted by the FLDS as part of their "religious beliefs."
Now, they want the law to step in and protect their law-breaking practices.
As much as I want to have sympathy for the parents who have had their children taken into protective custody, it's difficult to have sympathy for a group who has abused their own children and has shown such blatant disregard for the law.
Polygamy, child rape, child abandonment, welfare fraud, kidnapping, false imprisonment, stealing families, and incest are all practices that are AGAINST THE LAW, but are fully accepted by the FLDS as part of their "religious beliefs."
Now, they want the law to step in and protect their law-breaking practices.
As much as I want to have sympathy for the parents who have had their children taken into protective custody, it's difficult to have sympathy for a group who has abused their own children and has shown such blatant disregard for the law.
Anonymous | 6:52 a.m. May 15, 2008
What is the actual number of girls that are pregnant or have children under the
age of 18. The only statements made has been that there is a large group of
them. Give us some factual numbers.
How did the state come up with so many foster homes so quick. Taking a child who is not real young and stating that they may end up in foster care or be adopted is quite troublesome. A big group of children over a certain age will never be adopted and most likely moved from one foster home to another.
A better solution needs to be made. I have known several foster children that were taken out of their homes when they were young and there was good reason to do so, but they went from one home to another and ended up having major troubles themselves.
If foster parents are going to take on the role of parenting, they should be required to keep the children until their 18, and not give up when they are tired of parenting.
How did the state come up with so many foster homes so quick. Taking a child who is not real young and stating that they may end up in foster care or be adopted is quite troublesome. A big group of children over a certain age will never be adopted and most likely moved from one foster home to another.
A better solution needs to be made. I have known several foster children that were taken out of their homes when they were young and there was good reason to do so, but they went from one home to another and ended up having major troubles themselves.
If foster parents are going to take on the role of parenting, they should be required to keep the children until their 18, and not give up when they are tired of parenting.
I'm a teacher | 6:53 a.m. May 15, 2008
Regarding the comment about making the kids attend public school - My
neighbor's kid has been home schooled from the beginning and received a
perfect 800 on her SATs. There are excellent alternatives to public schools.
For example, I teach at an excellent private high school that also offers full
scholarships for low income participants. I home school my own elementary age
daughter because I believe that she was being held back by the local public
school. I don't believe in the "one size fits all" approach to
education. By the way, I personally attended public school all the way through.
I just happened to be lucky and lived in a town with a great public school and
devoted teachers. Not all children are so lucky.
Every thing that I've seen on the videos and have read about the FLDS school is evidence to me that it offered a good learning environment. I'm waiting to hear any proof that it did otherwise.
Every thing that I've seen on the videos and have read about the FLDS school is evidence to me that it offered a good learning environment. I'm waiting to hear any proof that it did otherwise.
John | 6:57 a.m. May 15, 2008
This is an example of the perversion of Civil Law which not carries punitive
powers far beyond many criminal laws cases, and yet has none of the protection.
CPS is simply the resulting frankenstien of a legal system separated from a
burden of proof.
Civil Law involving families and children should carry the same protections as Criminal Law - especially since the penalties invovle the highest stakes of all - the well being of children. Not only will the CPS lose on this travesty, but hopefully a rethinking of family-civil law will take place.
Civil Law involving families and children should carry the same protections as Criminal Law - especially since the penalties invovle the highest stakes of all - the well being of children. Not only will the CPS lose on this travesty, but hopefully a rethinking of family-civil law will take place.
Anonymous | 7:18 a.m. May 15, 2008
I'm praying for an end to these religious prisons. In texas and here.
These aren't simple, Disney families here. One of their worst crimes is to rob people of themselves. It's against what this nation stands for
These aren't simple, Disney families here. One of their worst crimes is to rob people of themselves. It's against what this nation stands for
chemist | 7:18 a.m. May 15, 2008
Actually the outrage felt by myself and many other posters on these boards is
directed at the flds members who jumped to follow the more and more ridiculous
dictates by Warren Jeffs. By doing so they are complicit in the various and
sundry abuses that were done in the name of religion and should be penalized for
it.
barnetto | 7:23 a.m. May 15, 2008
Thomas: If my religion held that I should run all red lights (because not
running red lights demonstrates a lack of faith that the lord will protect me
and then I won't go to heaven) should I be allowed to exercise that
religious right at the expense of the law? Underage marriage is a crime in our
society, the difference in ages between girls who were being married and their
husbands amounts to statutory rape, and abandonment of boys is neglect. Freedom
of religion doesn't mean freedom from the law in our constitutional
society.
Abuse all around | 7:32 a.m. May 15, 2008
Yes, CPS has abused its government-given power. Yes, FLDS leaders abuse their
power as well. But does one abuse justify another? There is a better way.
Utah has its own power with DCFS and a lack of oversight for the injustices they
themselves perpetrate but at least Utah has not yet gone crazy and decided the
Nazi method is better because the results are quicker, more children are placed
in the safety of foster care, and they can divert their other social problems
such as underage pregnancy and abortion by shifting attention to those terrible
law-breaking polygamists.
They absolutely had better show consistency in how they deal with other cases of teen pregnancy from here on out or their obvious unethical and prejudicial behavior will be obvious and we all need to worry about who will be their next target as they purge society to find the pure race/religion, etc.
How about if the reporters do some work and bring out the percentages of children in foster care who were abused or neglected by their parents whose main concern was not the child's welfare but merely a way to access children or collect money for their own use?
They absolutely had better show consistency in how they deal with other cases of teen pregnancy from here on out or their obvious unethical and prejudicial behavior will be obvious and we all need to worry about who will be their next target as they purge society to find the pure race/religion, etc.
How about if the reporters do some work and bring out the percentages of children in foster care who were abused or neglected by their parents whose main concern was not the child's welfare but merely a way to access children or collect money for their own use?
Son of Frank | 7:36 a.m. May 15, 2008
This whole mess started with polygamy, and it could end with the end of
polygamy. Texas should not avoid the real issue, and that is a society that has
been living outside the law, encouraging its members to break the law, and
raising a generation of children to break the law when they reach marrying age.
It's not just the age of marriage that is the problem. Texas, face the
real issue and start prosecuting FLDS for polygamy.
Wow | 7:45 a.m. May 15, 2008
I find it shocking that so many of you seem willing to allow the removal of
children for the potential and potential ONLY for future abuse. One out of four
women are raped, so should we arrest ALL men since EVERY man has the potential
to rape in the future? This is not about religion any longer, this is about
application of law based on in the individual NOT the group.
David S | 7:45 a.m. May 15, 2008
CPS has ONE legitimate contribution to make here: Prosecuting underage
marriages. In every other respect, they have NOTHING to preach to these people
about how to raise children in a safe, loving, God-fearing, positively
productive climate.
Let's gather up the families of the CPS people and put them under the magnifying glass and see how mentally/emotionally healthy they are and how stable their families are. Would it suprise anyone, based on the cruel behavior many have shown, to discover that they need more help than the FLDS in raising stable families?
Let's gather up the families of the CPS people and put them under the magnifying glass and see how mentally/emotionally healthy they are and how stable their families are. Would it suprise anyone, based on the cruel behavior many have shown, to discover that they need more help than the FLDS in raising stable families?
Illegal "Legal" Service Plans | 7:51 a.m. May 15, 2008
Each service plan must be individualized. Not all families had underage teen
brides (which they have yet to show an illegal union outside of the polygamy
part). This once again, because CPS was allowed to try them by the group and not
the family is treating each child and family as a group.
Re: Christina
Your suggestion is illegal. Every parent has the right to educate their child how they see fit..a constitutional right. Public School is not mandated by the Constitution..rather it was set up for poor families who could not educate at home or unable to due to working. Today, it has been mainstreamed but not mandatory in any state. Common Room showed the actual recording that their education level was at or above standard testing levels. They have no reason to be monitored in this.
Re: Avengance
CPS does this all the time. If these parents don't admit "guilt" that can be enough to keep the children
Re: Ray
They will wait YEARS until we all "forget" this incident before they start that, but it will happen one day. We forget all too easy and don't defend others especially when their religion is not our own.
Re: Christina
Your suggestion is illegal. Every parent has the right to educate their child how they see fit..a constitutional right. Public School is not mandated by the Constitution..rather it was set up for poor families who could not educate at home or unable to due to working. Today, it has been mainstreamed but not mandatory in any state. Common Room showed the actual recording that their education level was at or above standard testing levels. They have no reason to be monitored in this.
Re: Avengance
CPS does this all the time. If these parents don't admit "guilt" that can be enough to keep the children
Re: Ray
They will wait YEARS until we all "forget" this incident before they start that, but it will happen one day. We forget all too easy and don't defend others especially when their religion is not our own.
D | 7:50 a.m. May 15, 2008
CPS is a tyrant. I know, I've dealt with them as has my husband as has my
neighbors, and we just plain know them, that they are not caring or right.
Yes, we are very indignant about the abuse they have done to these poor, wonderful children.
They want the cash for adopting them out. Look on UTUBE and see what atrosities about CPS, not to mention the lies about how psychiatry is not even a valid medical field. That is something how brainwashed people are on that subject.
We just don't trust CPS or the government. There is a lot going on behind the scenes we should open our eyes and not be ignorant about it.
Our freedoms are on the line here. I want to do something to help these people other than protest online. I want to see them win there babies and families back. I want to see justice against a corrupt government. Right away.
Yes, we are very indignant about the abuse they have done to these poor, wonderful children.
They want the cash for adopting them out. Look on UTUBE and see what atrosities about CPS, not to mention the lies about how psychiatry is not even a valid medical field. That is something how brainwashed people are on that subject.
We just don't trust CPS or the government. There is a lot going on behind the scenes we should open our eyes and not be ignorant about it.
Our freedoms are on the line here. I want to do something to help these people other than protest online. I want to see them win there babies and families back. I want to see justice against a corrupt government. Right away.
IMMINENT DANGER | 8:05 a.m. May 15, 2008
WHAT A FARCE FOR A CRY FROM CPS..
WHY DOESN,T THE STATE OF TEXAS GATHER UP EVERY BOY UNDER THE AGE OF 18 THAT GOES TO CATHOLIC CHURCH..
THE EVIDENCE IS THERE FOR SERIOUS ABUSE.
YOU CANT SAY THIS IS NOT STRICTLY RELIGIOUS PERSICUSION.
WHY DOESN,T THE STATE OF TEXAS GATHER UP EVERY BOY UNDER THE AGE OF 18 THAT GOES TO CATHOLIC CHURCH..
THE EVIDENCE IS THERE FOR SERIOUS ABUSE.
YOU CANT SAY THIS IS NOT STRICTLY RELIGIOUS PERSICUSION.
Hypocrisy at work | 8:04 a.m. May 15, 2008
The Texas public welfare machine is apparently hungry for raw materials, i.e.
young children to process through the mill of public school, where they are
stamped, tagged, and infected with STDs, and made into "good"
citizens, like the CPS gestapo, perpetuating the cycle of abuse on any culture
that deviates from the norm.
to barnetto | 8:13 a.m. May 15, 2008
If your religion is being attacked, you can be sure that whatever makes you
unique will be made illegal. So long as there are others like you, who view
"legal" as "right" and "illegal" as
"wrong", these kinds of things will keep happening. For example: my
grandmother was wed at 14 years of age. My grandfather was not FLDS, not a
polygamist, and certainly not a pedophile. They were happily married for more
than 60 years. Are your male children circumcised? Perhaps it won't be
long before some well-meaning activists make circumcision illegal, and if you
dare mutilate your baby boy's genitalia, that means your a child abuser,
and ALL of your children will become wards of the state.
See how easy it is? Now, just find something "wierd" a group does, find those peoples' enemies, get some laws passed, and hunt the "wierdos" down and commit genocide... just hope that you don't end up being one of the wierdos someday.
See how easy it is? Now, just find something "wierd" a group does, find those peoples' enemies, get some laws passed, and hunt the "wierdos" down and commit genocide... just hope that you don't end up being one of the wierdos someday.
It's no longer about the FLDS | 8:16 a.m. May 15, 2008
This case is no longer about the FLDS. It is about the lying and abusive CPS.
How can any parent, having witnessed their deceitful smear campaign, their
snatching babies from the arms of their mothers, not be afraid of falling into
the clutches of these monsters?
Tammy | 8:20 a.m. May 15, 2008
I feel for these women who have had their precious children taken away. I think
that there needs to be strict guidelines put in place, but if they want to
practice polygamy then that is their choice. Unfortunantly the minority of
abusers makes the whole community look awful. I believe that most of these
parents are doing good and if they believe what they are doing is right then we
need to leave them alone. They just need a much stricter age limit before the
marraige is allowed.
GET REAL BARNETTO | 8:23 a.m. May 15, 2008
Barnetto: What happens when you get stopped for rolling through a yield sign,
when the law changes on you,and you must make a complete stop now. the goverment
keeps making it up as you go.
The problem | 8:26 a.m. May 15, 2008
The problem is that the "underage girls marrying" claim is fast
falling apart. Already underage girls are showing proof of age which even CPS
cannot deny. Cps is still stating that one recent mother is 15 though her
paperwork, including a drivers license issued by TX states she is 22. DO the
math. If she lived in TX for 4 years and immediately went to the DMV, she
received her license at age 18 or according to CPS 11. HUH, REALLY? DMV
didn't have a slight suspicion on that one? Oh wait, even DMV guessed
better than CPS.
Bill | 8:27 a.m. May 15, 2008
If there is underage marriage, then the Texas CPS should be required to prove
it. Instead, like so many on this thread, all we hear are allegations about two
or three such marriages. Such allegations are not sufficient to steal 400+
children from their families and stuff them into foster homes where they are at
risk for being force-fed drugs to keep them in line.
Disgusted | 8:33 a.m. May 15, 2008
I doubt that the CPS has any plans of giving those kids back. I've heard
stories about their hoops they make people jump though as they stall for two
years and then they terminate parental rights. Parenting classes for some of the
best parents in the country ? What absurdity.
Let me guess they are going to tell them you cant live at that ranch anymore it is unsafe. OH were sorry you cant have your kids because you have no place to live !!!
I want to know why these CPS goons are still walking around free after all the laws they broke. Why are they allowed to torture these parents who never should have had their children stolen to begin with.
Let me guess they are going to tell them you cant live at that ranch anymore it is unsafe. OH were sorry you cant have your kids because you have no place to live !!!
I want to know why these CPS goons are still walking around free after all the laws they broke. Why are they allowed to torture these parents who never should have had their children stolen to begin with.
Red | 8:33 a.m. May 15, 2008
barnetto: "Thomas: If my religion held that I should run all red lights ...
should I be allowed to exercise that religious right at the expense of the
law?"
You're confusing belief and action; not uncommon in these postings.
You should be allowed to *believe* running red lights is your religious duty. Belief is protected in the U. S. Period (So far -- at least).
Actually *running* the red lights, however, is *not* protected. If you wanted to live unmolested here, you'd have to resign yourself to going to hell (Practically, though, I'm pretty sure you'd get away with it for years in Utah).
Same principle for FLDS. If they believed (I'm pretty sure they *don't,* BTW) that they have to marry at 14 or burn, that belief would be protected, but actually marrying at 14 would put them under the hammer of the law.
You're confusing belief and action; not uncommon in these postings.
You should be allowed to *believe* running red lights is your religious duty. Belief is protected in the U. S. Period (So far -- at least).
Actually *running* the red lights, however, is *not* protected. If you wanted to live unmolested here, you'd have to resign yourself to going to hell (Practically, though, I'm pretty sure you'd get away with it for years in Utah).
Same principle for FLDS. If they believed (I'm pretty sure they *don't,* BTW) that they have to marry at 14 or burn, that belief would be protected, but actually marrying at 14 would put them under the hammer of the law.
Hey barnetto | 8:36 a.m. May 15, 2008
The courts already ruled that actions, not reaching, can be prosecuted.
As far as underage marriage and your claim that "it is a crime in out society." That is a false claim in part. Why? Because age of consent is determined on a state by state basis and is NOT consistent. Some states continue to allow for 14 year olds marrying. While the soundbite that boys are abandoned sounds good, all facts need to be considered. Where is one boy that has been abandoned in Texas? Why hasn't that been legally considered? It doesn't apply in TX.
Freedom of religion doesn't NOT mean freedom from the Law, but also being in an unpopular religion should not mean DIFFERENT law application. All children were removed because ALL were FLDS, even though they are under the rule of law, INDIVIDUALS. that is my issue with this case. If it is allowed with the FLDS, the next time it may apply to you.
As far as underage marriage and your claim that "it is a crime in out society." That is a false claim in part. Why? Because age of consent is determined on a state by state basis and is NOT consistent. Some states continue to allow for 14 year olds marrying. While the soundbite that boys are abandoned sounds good, all facts need to be considered. Where is one boy that has been abandoned in Texas? Why hasn't that been legally considered? It doesn't apply in TX.
Freedom of religion doesn't NOT mean freedom from the Law, but also being in an unpopular religion should not mean DIFFERENT law application. All children were removed because ALL were FLDS, even though they are under the rule of law, INDIVIDUALS. that is my issue with this case. If it is allowed with the FLDS, the next time it may apply to you.
william | 8:43 a.m. May 15, 2008
the law in this case is changed to fit the occasion..The law said 14 before but
now they changed it to 16...still kinda young I think but with the steroids in
the Texas meat some five year olds look much older....The law is whatever
Hildebran wishs to throw out.... rememember killing the INdians was a law at one
time...
remember killing the blacks was a law at one time...
remember stealing the land of hawaiians was a law at one time...
remember bad people my equally bad laws...
remember the law of illegal search and seizure... seems it doesn't apply... why do you insist on just looking at the law you want them to obey..
since you have no idea of what they really know about the hereafter nor your own religion ideas but you think your path is much better...perhaps we can hop on the Methodists next...then the Amish.... and by the way the road out to the ranch is littered with lazy people in trailor homes and junk in their yards.. If they spent one minute cleaning up their own areas they might not be jealous of those who built a temple in four or five years.
remember killing the blacks was a law at one time...
remember stealing the land of hawaiians was a law at one time...
remember bad people my equally bad laws...
remember the law of illegal search and seizure... seems it doesn't apply... why do you insist on just looking at the law you want them to obey..
since you have no idea of what they really know about the hereafter nor your own religion ideas but you think your path is much better...perhaps we can hop on the Methodists next...then the Amish.... and by the way the road out to the ranch is littered with lazy people in trailor homes and junk in their yards.. If they spent one minute cleaning up their own areas they might not be jealous of those who built a temple in four or five years.
TexasRN | 8:46 a.m. May 15, 2008
So far the 2 girls that CPS claimed were underage pregnant minors - aren't.
They are both adults (one admitted by CPS in court to be 18 on Tuesday, and the
other 22-year-old getting her hearing in Austin today). Out of the 31
"teenagers" that CPS said are pregnant or have children, 26 are
"disputed minors." Where does CPS's case go when those 26 are
proven to be adults??
FLDS_Guy | 8:46 a.m. May 15, 2008
"Polygamy, child rape, child abandonment, welfare fraud, kidnapping, false
imprisonment, stealing families, and incest are all practices that are AGAINST
THE LAW, but are fully accepted by the FLDS as part of their "religious
beliefs.""
And where do you get all this information from? The only thing in your argument that holds any weight is the "polygamy" part. Nowhere and at no time has our religion taught child rape, child abandonment, welfare fraud, kidnapping, false imprisonment, stealing families, or incest. Just because there are those who have done wrong among our religion does not mean that's what we're taught.
Why don't you argue that the Catholic priests are taught to molest young boys as their "religious beliefs"?
And where do you get all this information from? The only thing in your argument that holds any weight is the "polygamy" part. Nowhere and at no time has our religion taught child rape, child abandonment, welfare fraud, kidnapping, false imprisonment, stealing families, or incest. Just because there are those who have done wrong among our religion does not mean that's what we're taught.
Why don't you argue that the Catholic priests are taught to molest young boys as their "religious beliefs"?
Matthew | 8:47 a.m. May 15, 2008
Barnetto,
You would be ticketed for running the red lights and allowed your day in court. Eventually you might loose your license.
If the FLDS broke laws, prosecute the law breakers and give them their day in court (even though the laws were changed to facilitate religous persectution). You are just throwing out random accusations that may, or may not, have any connection to actual events at the YFZ Ranch.
Texas needs to present evidence in a criminal court or give the children back and start putting money aside for the lawsuits that are sure to come.
Having said that, why do you think it is OK for Texas to ignore tens of thousands of cases of statutory rape that occur every year yet so zealously pursue the FLDS purely based on religous grounds? That would be like only giving you a ticket for the red light running but letting everyone else (not of you hypothetical religion) go scott-free.
You would be ticketed for running the red lights and allowed your day in court. Eventually you might loose your license.
If the FLDS broke laws, prosecute the law breakers and give them their day in court (even though the laws were changed to facilitate religous persectution). You are just throwing out random accusations that may, or may not, have any connection to actual events at the YFZ Ranch.
Texas needs to present evidence in a criminal court or give the children back and start putting money aside for the lawsuits that are sure to come.
Having said that, why do you think it is OK for Texas to ignore tens of thousands of cases of statutory rape that occur every year yet so zealously pursue the FLDS purely based on religous grounds? That would be like only giving you a ticket for the red light running but letting everyone else (not of you hypothetical religion) go scott-free.
Getting real | 8:50 a.m. May 15, 2008
As of tomorrow, any Baptist, Catholic or anything else, caught teaching their
children their ways, will have their children removed from them and put up for
adoption.
No way, can we teach a faith, no matter how goofy it is, to any child. I know I'm guilty of just that. (I'll take my chances with Utah CPS not removing my kids, because I'm teaching them to be good and faithful followers). And if a 16 yr old gets 'with child', she better make sure it's with another underage boy, and not a husband.
No way, can we teach a faith, no matter how goofy it is, to any child. I know I'm guilty of just that. (I'll take my chances with Utah CPS not removing my kids, because I'm teaching them to be good and faithful followers). And if a 16 yr old gets 'with child', she better make sure it's with another underage boy, and not a husband.
I want to know | 8:53 a.m. May 15, 2008
I want to know how many of the "underage" young women are between the
ages of 16 and 18, when it is perfectly legal to marry in Texas? And how many
of the ones who married earlier were married when it was still legal to marry at
14 (crazy age, but still legal).
And Barnetto, I think the snake handlers in the hills of my native Kentucky are totally nuts, but their religion tells them that if they have faith, they can even handle poisonous snakes without harm--based on their interpretation of the New Testament. Shall we stop them, too? After all, some of them get killed doing it--and they are teaching their kids to handle snakes, too.
And Barnetto, I think the snake handlers in the hills of my native Kentucky are totally nuts, but their religion tells them that if they have faith, they can even handle poisonous snakes without harm--based on their interpretation of the New Testament. Shall we stop them, too? After all, some of them get killed doing it--and they are teaching their kids to handle snakes, too.
Re: Abuse all around | 8:55 a.m. May 15, 2008
"They absolutely had better show consistency in how they deal with other
cases of teen pregnancy from here on out..."
You know very well this isn't just a case of teen pregnancy, this is a case of forced underaged marriage and child rape, a religious belief that is practiced by some, but is universally accepted by FLDS members.
Some girls taken into protective custody in the YFZ Ranch raid were sent from Canada for this express purpose. Canada just changed their age of consent from 14 to 16 for the very same reason that Texas changed theirs, to prevent the FLDS from continuing this despicable practice of child abuse.
You know very well this isn't just a case of teen pregnancy, this is a case of forced underaged marriage and child rape, a religious belief that is practiced by some, but is universally accepted by FLDS members.
Some girls taken into protective custody in the YFZ Ranch raid were sent from Canada for this express purpose. Canada just changed their age of consent from 14 to 16 for the very same reason that Texas changed theirs, to prevent the FLDS from continuing this despicable practice of child abuse.
Keep your logic | 9:00 a.m. May 15, 2008
Barnetto: The rule of law in a constitutional society also has certain checks
and balances, and due process to protect all of its citizens. We get it that
they have broken some laws, but they have been completely marginalized and
denied the due process that even the most murderous thugs in our society get to
enjoy. They have been held for 8 weeks now and no one has been charged with
anything? You should use the SAME paraphrazed statement and direct it to Texas.
"Handling religious expression doesn't mean freedom from the law in
our constitutional society."
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