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Chairman says Texas CPS workers mistreated FLDS

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  • Anonymous
    June 4, 2009 11:02 a.m.

    Cps is totally corrupt! Period!! There must be Due Process when you deprive someone of their child or property!

  • Anonymous
    Jan. 20, 2009 4:34 p.m.

    How shall we start a coalition to abolish the Child exPloitation disService agencies?

    I'm in.

  • Before we drink
    Jan. 13, 2009 7:16 a.m.

    . . . the kool-aid with FLDS trolls, remember what this article was all about -- some of the workers called in by CPS as an emergency measure because of the magnitude of the situation CPS encountered upon its entry into YFZ proved to be less than stellar performers.

    OK. We all agree that's bad. That is not to say, however, that CPS was wrong to intervene, or that the FLDS were not -- and are not -- abusing their kids by subjecting them to an oppressive and immoral lifestyle.

    They are.

    And the emergency was created, not by a false report, but by the dangerous and immoral leadership and lifestyle the FLDS still, for the most part, defend.

    It's unfortunate that the FLDS children, the actual innocent victims of both the FLDS and those few incompetent CPS caregivers, are still largely unprotected.

  • Sandra
    Jan. 13, 2009 6:48 a.m.

    It is sad that cps can just walk in and distroy people lives like they do. Right here in Brown County there are over 1600 chidren in foster care and 54% was put there by one tripping cps worker. I would like to know if there is a way to stop these cruel people from kidnapping children from their parents. Cps workers lie to you and make false documents so they can do whatever they want to do. When you go to court you dont even get to defend yourself but cps sure has a lawyer sitting on thier side. These people are heartless and all they think about is the money they get from it. They remove children because of allegation. Dont even get to prove you are innocent. Cps will lie and get the cops to come to your house and break in if you dont answer you door.The power tripping cps worker has so much animosity against everyone. I would like to know how to stop these evil people?

  • LaVista Gossett
    Aug. 26, 2008 10:25 p.m.

    I'm on the other side of the spectrum. Because of complaints, I've had children removed from my care. I've experienced first hand the abuse of athority by CPS. Someone should hold them accountable for their actions.

  • Harrison Mullins
    July 10, 2008 2:42 p.m.

    I think the cps and is the worst goverment orgnation known to man or woman I think most of its employes on nothingmore or less than a bunch ol liers and cheats.

  • megansdad
    July 4, 2008 6:27 p.m.

    absolute power corrupts, absolutely

    I fought and won, they have qualified immunity and can do whatever they want to anyone. Many of you will be subject to them as you argue with a teacher at school or disagree with a doctor on care. I soon found out that mandatory reporters are also given immunity. My children still fear them and we work every day to give them a stable life.

  • Why?
    June 26, 2008 8:39 a.m.

    Why are government agencies given immunity? Those who are in government positions and who abuse the constitutional rights of others should be given a greater punishment!

    It looked like CPS decided what they saw at this ranch even before they went in there.

  • PhookCPS
    June 25, 2008 3:58 a.m.

    I have 11 videos of CPS visiting my home and completely violating my 4th and 14th amendment rights, I have court documents showing they falsified medical records, falsified a warrant, and i have recorded phone coversations where the fbsS worker blatantly lied, as well as the fbss supervisor extorting me.

    apparently, the constitution of the united states is worthless.

    CPS is a state agency, which is bound by federal laws, however, cps seems to make their OWN laws.

    CPS wishes to settle out of court with me, I prefer to make a precedence case in the supreme court, and smear them all over the news, then start a coalition to abolish this agency.

  • Ted
    June 21, 2008 10:00 p.m.

    CPS is just getting more bold at what they normally do to smaller families.

    They treated my family similarly, and my lawyer advised me to cooperate while they kidnap my daughter because they could otherwise retaliate by kidnapping my younger son, and there would be no chance any case would be resolved before she turned 18. It didn't matter how well we'd raised them, or that my daughter was already advanced in college math before being college age, or that we'd been officially recognized by congress for the children's accomplishments the past couple of years. All that matters to them is their own (paid-off) "therapist's professional" opinions.

    That was quite a shock to me, who had always believed in the "liberty and justice for all" that our forefathers laid down their lives for. Maybe we'd be as good off under some other totalitarian regime if this is not stopped. So let's stop it. I say ask our politicians to show who they'll support - families and freedom, or a nationally supported multi-billion-dollar kidnapping ring. Only vote for those who will support our true freedom (from homeland threats like corrupt CPS agents).

    Stop Child exPloitation disService now!

    Your neighborhood next?

  • Bartleby
    June 10, 2008 10:48 p.m.

    Social worker charged with false report
    by MARY MUSIC
    Staff Writer

    PRESTONSBURG A criminal summons was issued Wednesday for a social services worker charged with making a false report against his clients.
    Floyd County Chris Newsome now faces a class A misdemeanor charge of falsely reporting an incident after an investigation by the Prestons-burg Police Department ended Wednesday.
    The investigation, which began earlier this month after Auxier residents Richard and Kimberly Hardy produced an audio recording of Newsome during a regularly scheduled visit of their son, sparked several other complaints from the community against the Floyd County social services agency.

  • Gold
    May 27, 2008 8:00 p.m.

    To Richard,
    No, this was not a brochure ware comment as you say. It is CPS's job to protect the child. As stated, if there is "reason to believe" the child/children are removed. I have seen first hand children saved. I have seen children returned back to parents in a short time from 1 day to 18 months or more. Every case is different.

    No-name(sorry) stated alot of comments that are facts. Maybe you should read them Richard.

    I will ask this again. I thought more than one wife is illegal in the USA. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

  • No Name (Sorry)
    May 26, 2008 12:46 p.m.

    "Richard" cont.

    Everyone wants to pass judgement and lay the blame on someone, but nobody offers an alternative or offers solutions to fix the problems. I'm not say that CPS is perfect, but the REALITY is that CPS is all we have right now (better than nothing).

    When a child is being abused and cops make an arrest, do you think the cops pick this child up and care for him? NO, CPS does. It is CPS's responsiblity to ensure the child is no longer placed at risk of being abused again. The suspect will get out of jail sooner or later and CPS has to find out if the mother/caregiver/guardian has shown that she will be protective of the child when the abuser gets out.
    This type of investigations can take a while and the harsh reality is that CPS has TIMEFRAMES, cops don't.
    REALITY is that abuse is a pattern, a mother who was sexually abused will partner up with a male who will abuse her and her child. You can arrest the abuser but mother will end up again with someone just like him again and the abuse continues.

  • No Name (Sorry)
    May 26, 2008 9:39 a.m.

    For "Richard" continued.
    Do you suggest that CPS just leave the child with the family until the investigation if finished, thereby leaving the child at risk of further abuse. Reality is that the family (suspect) would apologize, convince the child it won't happen again and to say nothing. Children want to protect their parents.

    CPS's only concern is that of the CHILD, the CHILD who is too afraid or who doesn't even understand that what the child is being subjected to is abuse. Many children living in abusive homes don't even understand that they are being abused, they believe it's normal. I seen children taken from VERY ABUSIVE HOMES and crying to be left with the ABUSERS. This is all the child knows, all the child has ever grown up with.

    The problem with this is that policies and procedures get put into place to handle situations (regardless of actual abuse) the same way. If CPS treats abuse differently from one family to the next, attorneys would cry foul. 80% of what CPS investigates is RULED OUT, that tells you that 80% of the time, CPS is wasting their time. Time that is taken away from real cases of abuse.

  • No Name (Sorry)
    May 26, 2008 9:14 a.m.

    For "Richard." You have some keen issues brought to mind but I have to point this out, CPS 1st priority is the protection of the CHILD, not the family or parents.
    1st, do your homework; if a child is being abused, it does not automatically mean the child is "Removed" from the family, CPS has to first find or attempt to find a family member to place the child with while the investigation is ongoing. The reason for this is to place the least amount of emotional trauma on the child. But if during the course of the investigation the investigator finds out or suspects family knew about the abuse, did nothing to stop it or has shown a pattern of being non-protective, CPS will then remove the child.
    I have to also mention that CPS attempts to come to an agreement with the parents (and person who accepts placement of the child) to take steps to ensure a investigation is conducted without interference and the child is not at risk of being abused while the investigation is ongoing.
    Think about what would happen if CPS investigates, suspects abuse may be occurring, does nothing and then the child dies.

  • Richard
    May 25, 2008 3:37 a.m.


    Watcher wrote: "I don't consider leaving children with abusive parents until the parents have been tried and convicted of abuse to be an American tradition or constitutional."

    I see, due process is not needed in the USA. Has it occurred to you that the reason we charge, then present evidence, then arrive at a deliberated verdict, is to protect the innocent? You just decided they were abused (and it must have been some awkward definition you used), and suggested punishing the victims who might not even be victims. If it were your way, why go to court at all. Just accuse, take what you want, and let the wastrels languish in jail.

    Watcher also wrote: "We're not certain that all of the children actually belong to parents living at the ranch, so the state first has to determine the legal parents of each child before the children can be returned."

    So, they can take your children for weeks to determine whether they belong to you, before they are returned? Am I detecting a neuro-disease here, or is this the New Logic?

  • Richard
    May 25, 2008 3:27 a.m.

    Obvious wrote: "The numerous posts on this site supporting the FLDS do not reflect the attitudes around the country. The public sentiment is overwhelmingly in favor of reigning in these polygamists. "

    Well, I live in Washington (we already had our CPS nightmare a years ago), and I although I do not comport with FLDS beliefs, I thoroughly support them.

    However, if you think this action is lawfully about 'reigning in those polygamists," then it is probably more important to reign in you. I say this because you indicate a willingness to deny due process to others, a keystone of tyranny.

  • Richard
    May 25, 2008 3:21 a.m.

    ING wrote: "I can't help imagining my own children, 9 and 6 years old, in such a situation. I don't think they'll ever be in that situation, and I would never do anything to put them in it..."

    Be careful your confidence, many (maybe even many on this list), never would do anything to put themselves or their children in that situation, but they still found themselves in a such a situation. I wouldn't believe it could happen, until it happened to me.

    That is why the reaction is so visceral.

  • Richard
    May 25, 2008 3:18 a.m.

    The Texan wrote: "Hey Grandma (obviosu FLDS poser), abuse was found, that why the courts ordered the action they did. You have dementia or something."

    Yeah, the appeals court rescinding that court order must be an FLDS poser as well...

    Would you like an aisle or window seat in the sanitorium, Texan?

  • Richard
    May 25, 2008 1:50 a.m.

    gold wrote: "CPS first priority is to protect the unproteced, and to find a permanent situation be it with parents, relatives, kinship, adoptive placement"

    Sounds like brochure-ware to me (unless they are protecting themselves). Is this why you think CPS has justification to violate the law?

    When you hear, "We're CPS and we're hear to protect you," be afraid, be very afraid!

  • No Name (Sorry)
    May 22, 2008 9:59 p.m.

    I am an Ex-CPS Investigator. I have worked Criminal (as a COP)and Civil(as CPS)Investigations; I'm still a Cop. I want everyone to understand CPS IS NEEDED. If you have seen that things that I have seen you would understand this. The majority of children who are killed or abused; the suspect is a a FAMILY member. This is just the way it is, I don't like it, but its REALITY. There were times I thanked God that I wasn't carrying my firearm when talking to people who confessed to killing or abusing their children (it is a very depressing job and takes it toll); 16 child deaths total. It's one of the reason I left. I have worked investigations where I know I saved children, but on the same hand, I worked investigations where I know deep down inside I was doing more harm than good for the child and family. I say this with an emphasis on the difference between a criminal investigation and a civil. Law Enforcement has been around for centuries, CPS in Texas has been here maybe 40 years? Hardly anybody quits Law Enforcement, CPS has a turnover rate of 54%; see what I'm getting at?

  • Jim Green
    May 22, 2008 9:39 p.m.

    Sweet justice. As I told you in my earlier entry, the entire case against the FLDS was and is a scam. And those of you who watched CNN tonight now know I was telling you the truth.

    I made only one mistake. There were not three girls under 18 which were pregnant. There were just two and none below 18 have given birth at all. So, the FLDS were correct all along. They do not marry off minors.

    One girl is seventeen; one girl is sixteen, though the 16 year old says she is 18. None the less, it is not against Texas law to be 16 and married or 16 and pregnant.

    The State swore under oath that 31 minors were pregnant. Now if you notice, my entry was dated in April. Do you honestly think I was the only one to know this information?

  • Anonymous
    May 22, 2008 7:37 p.m.

    Whatever is going on with flds is wrong. What is worse is the Texas cps! I should know. My daughter was taken away all based on a lie, a well documented lie! They took my daughter away. After a lot of heartache and money she is back with us. I have no history of violence or abusive behavior. A therapist was fired. A school headmaster lost his job. A teacher was fired. A school administrator was demoted. A social worker was transferred. A social worker was fired. The report was made up. The report cited a doctor who doesn't exist. The state's lawyer was caught in a lie. Child protective services is broken. While the protection of children is necessary, and their goals and objectives may be noble, reality is such that they do more harm than good.

  • jennifer
    May 22, 2008 6:10 p.m.

    Texas cps and police officers from the fortworth police department came to my house and removed 3 of my children and placed them out of state with a convicted child abuser after i told them my Children were not to Leave the state of Texas! Texas Cps and the fortworth police department removed my children 2yrs ago and the Tarrant County DAs office, OAG office of Texas and The courthouse in downtown Fortworth Texas can not find any records saying cps and the police removed my kids!

  • Gramma
    May 22, 2008 12:57 a.m.

    And one thing people can do to help is to donate to the litigation fund for FLDS - go the Captive FLDS Children website, and give whatever you can. Also, sign the Petition that is online to Free the FLDS Children. And let your elected officials know, today, that if they don't speak out NOW against this abomination of the justice system, you will NOT vote for them.

    Oh, and boycott Texas -

  • Gramma
    May 22, 2008 12:50 a.m.

    Gold, please just google "CPS" and "big business" or "CPS" and "organized crime" or "CPS" and "gestapo". Read some of the truth about these pack of sadistic thugs who steal children and babies for money and power.

    Where did you get YOUR info that there WAS abuse?

    Maybe you've seen a case, or even two, where it appeared that CPS helped. I'm sceptical. I've read case after case after case where they have done everything from lie, create false reports, bully, intimidate, abuse, sexually abuse, to murder (PBS did a story on a CPS worker who became a foster parent and murdered, and was convicted of murdering a poor little girl - the CPS worker / foster mom duct taped the little girl to a chair in the basement and she died, I believe, from suffocation.) There are many other stories out there about sick, twisted, perverted CPS workers. Power corrupts, and CPS workers have more power than God and Satan put together, at least that's the way it feels when you're a wrongfully accused parent. Please don't believe all the Oprah / Nancy Grace crap that you hear / read.

  • Concerned for Familes
    May 21, 2008 7:16 p.m.

    If you have ever had dealings with Texas CPS you will soon realize that their sole purpose it to ruin your family and your life. There are no real check and balances system for CPS they are always in charge. Along with many counties that have paid Attorney ad idem on their payroll which is a direct conflict of interest. It soon becomes obvious that the attorney representing your child are actually looking only to keep their job and do not have the real interest of any child in mind. CPS will not listen to any parent under suspect nor will they listen or contact anyone that might have first hand knowledge of your child or not. They PAY WITH YOUR TAX DOLLARS TO KEEP CONTRACTORS FOR EVALUATIONS for you and your child in business. CPS IS TOTALLY OUT OF CONTROL IN TEXAS. Now problems in San Angelo because the are a high profile news story is moving much faster than any other case on their current files leaving all other cases in limbo.

    CPS Child Protective Services or better said CPS Communist Police State...

  • gold
    May 21, 2008 2:30 p.m.

    To Gramma,
    I do have heart and brains. Where did you get your info that there was no abuse/neglect? So, did they rule out all of the findings? I made a comment on the neutral side and you taking it out of context.
    I have seen first hand children saved from the hand of someone that took advantage of them. CPS first priority is to protect the unproteced, and to find a permanent situation be it with parents, relatives, kinship, adoptive placement.

  • Mother
    May 21, 2008 12:39 p.m.

    I think this is horrible and CPS is to blame and should be held responsible. I dont blame Texas in general. There are many people who are born and raised in Texas and are very respectful and honest. This whole situatin has reflected on them unfairly. CPS is like this all over the country. This paticular tragedy is a lose/lose situation. Tax payers will pay. The children are paying now and so are the parents.

  • Grandpa Phil
    May 21, 2008 7:11 a.m.

    Caren, CPS is "protected" from lawsuits due to their status as a government agency. They can only be sued with their permission. Not likely that is going to happen.

  • 4COMMONSENSE
    May 20, 2008 10:10 p.m.

    Grandpa Phil,
    Your post means alot, considering you have first hand knowledge of the inner workings of CPS and family court.

  • 4COMMONSENSE
    May 20, 2008 10:10 p.m.

    G comment -
    the problem with your rationale is that I really don't care whether CPS found evidence of abuse.
    ____________________________________________________
    You don't care ? It's ok that based on someone's opionion that these girls/women were repressed,etc that 464 children are uprooted and placed with total strangers ? I have concerns about any children you may have based on these screwed up beliefs.

  • Gramma
    May 20, 2008 8:40 a.m.

    To Gold: Do some research on CPS - they are a brutal organization wherever you find them.

    THERE WAS NO ABUSE FOUND, AND NO EVIDENCE OF ABUSE FOUND, AT FLDS.

    When are you people going to get that through your heads?

    The FLDS children should have been given back LONG ago, and never taken in the first place. What is happening right now, EVEN IF IT WERE LEGAL, would be the most inhumane, brutal thing!

    Have some heart and brains! This is so obviously a sickening bullying brutal action of the State and CPS. Anyone who can't see that is so totally brainwashed it's pathetic.

    DO SOME RESEARCH INTO CPS! THEY ARE EVIL INCARNATE!

  • Gramma
    May 20, 2008 12:20 a.m.

    CPS should be abolished. If there is a suspicion of abuse, it should be treated just like any other crime. Due process and the presumption of innocence should not be thrown out. People need to stop buying into the idea that there is abuse everywhere, and that just because some kid has a bruise or is crying, they must be getting abused. We have been totally brainwashed by shows like Oprah, and the media, who see abuse everywhere. If parents are having problems, they should be helped. Too many parents have lost their children, merely because they are poor. All the money that is spent on government mooches could have paid for all these families to live like royalty. The government is the true evil here, for it is what is behind CPS. Remember, CPS is just an arm of the government. Demand that your elected official abolish CPS or immediately make reforms that take away their abusive power. Demand also that such things as anonymous accusations be outlawed, and that the penalty for a false accusation be jail time!

  • Caren
    May 19, 2008 2:10 p.m.

    If there are so many victims of CPS isn't it time for a massive class action law suit.
    You should all contact the attorneys of FLDS and team up. Or have they made class action lawsuits illegal already ...The big surge in kidnapping came after the Welfare reform bill so most of the victims still are incarcerated someplace. It is about time to get them released.

  • Deborah Bratcher
    May 19, 2008 2:06 p.m.

    CPS in Texas has been out of control for years! They believe they have "magical" powers of discernment, making SNAP judgements against people and then only changing their tactics when high-powered attorneys are brought in. It's anti-American,and, as so many before me have pointed out, CPS plans are way more harmful to children than the parents the children are removed from were. I hope to have a say to Gov. Perry, too, if a real, sincere probe into the constant misconduct of various CPS offices is undertaken.

  • gold
    May 19, 2008 12:59 p.m.

    Being a foster adoptive parent for 15 plus years, I can see that cps has to investigate by law. If a child is in danger, or reason to believe of abuse/neglect the child is removed. It is up to the judge to make the final decision how long the children stay in care or go home. I thought by law ,having many wives is not legal in the USA. If fathers were infact causing harm to the children the children would be removed from the home. If the mothers of the children were aware of this , they are as quilty. As for the cps workers being rude, etc. It is like many situations, there are good workers, and not so good. Same goes for teachers, police, etc.

  • survivor of cps
    May 19, 2008 8:53 a.m.

    when I think of cps, I think of the Stanford prison experiment of 1971.

  • survivor of cps
    May 19, 2008 8:22 a.m.

    what cps is doing in Texas is what they do all over our country. Every child taken into thier protective custody is victimized or revictimized by an agency full of people trying to justify what they do, so that they can sleep at night. cps is in denial regarding thier own mental health and is in desparate need of intervention. They themselves have become the neglectful and abusive guardian. The only way to change them, is to challenge and confront them,which is what has been happening across America IF you will just see. The time has come, for our nation to TRUELY be made aware of the unredeamable disfunctionality of cps. Because, what happened to my family and the families of half a million children every year, and now FDLS families can happen to YOU. If you don't believe me, try refusing to send your kindergarden child to the dentist and see how close cps gets to your door.

  • Gramma
    May 19, 2008 1:09 a.m.

    Wise decision, Tina.

    Read the Frontline segment on Logan Marr, the 5 year old who was taken from her "unfit" mother, and given to the foster "mother" / CPS worker. This case reveals much about CPS and the kind of people who have power there.

    All it takes is one (anonymous) phone call. A vindictive ex, a jealous co-worker, a creepy neighbour. There is no justice in a court where one side (the government and CPS) have all the power, and everything is done in secrecy. If you do run into problems with CPS, don't meet them without a (good) lawyer present, and (if state law permits it) tape record everything that transpires between you, CPS, doctors, etc.

    Read up on your rights, and how to fight CPS, should that horrible day ever come to pass.

    If I was young again, I would really think hard about having children. I can't think of anything worse than losing them to CPS. But I'm hopeful that things will change, given enough awareness. The human race has much goodness, unfortunately, right now there are a lot of evil people with power.

  • Tina
    May 18, 2008 2:51 p.m.

    Gramma, not sure about Boycotting Texas, but my husband came home Friday and told me he was offered a job in Texas. I told him no amount of money is going to make me move to Texas after all of this. There are 49 other states in the union - he can pick another one.

    I'm not saying there was not abuse in the FLDS compound, but I am NOT going to live in a state where the state government representatives hold adults as minors until they give birth to snatch their kids or any of the other things I have heard about their CPS.

    I don't have children yet, but that does not matter - not moving to Texas.

  • Gramma
    May 18, 2008 8:53 a.m.

    And by the way, quit repeating the LIE that there was abuse at the FLDS ranch.

    CPS already admitted, there was NO EVIDENCE OF ABUSE. But there sure will be abuse to come for those poor little FLDS children, given the statistics on what brutalities occur in foster homes. Drug addiction, suicide, incarceration, homelessness, this is what they have to look forward to.

    Before you so quickly condone the actions of the State and CPS, you might want to do a bit of research and think for yourself. After all, if you really care about the "best interests of the children" you would think long and hard, and do a bit of research, before you so blindly accept what the government and their thugs foist off on you.

    BOYCOTT TEXAS!

  • Gramma
    May 17, 2008 8:53 p.m.

    Boycott Texas. It's the only language they understand.

  • JT
    May 17, 2008 2:10 p.m.

    What's the Difference between CPS and the Gestapo? When the Gestapo sent people to the concentration camp, they kept families together.-
    Robert T. McQuaid

  • Justthefactsmaam
    May 17, 2008 7:53 a.m.

    You do know, don't you, before this is all said and done, Texas Taypayers will be writng a check over to the FLDS for SEVERAL BILLION DOLLARS.

    You watch and see. There won't even be one conviction on underage marriage. Prior to September 2005, girls could be formally OR informally married (common law) married at 14 *with* their parent's permission.

    After September 2005, it was 16.

    When you look at the 2007 Bishop's census, not even one marriage violated the above. Some came close, but none violated.

    Regarding the bigamy prosecutions, if Texas is stupid enough to bring those, it will be overturned by SCOTUS using Lawrence vs Texas language of "consensual sex between ADULTS."

    Under Texas law, these 14 to 16 year old girls were ADULTS.

    Holm was refused to be heard by SCOTUS because Ruth Stubbs was legally a minor under Utah law.

    Oops!

    Don't mess with Texas.

    Leave it alone.

    It'll mess its own drawers.

  • bereaved
    May 17, 2008 7:52 a.m.

    Well I am one who had the same done to me the more people talk about how abusive cps is the more powerful they become. I am so overwhelmed on how they are able to get away with what they get away with.I believe that so many of them are un wed and do not have children of there own and are able to tell you how to raise your children.The gov. is so out of it that they do not even know what is going on.So instead of us talking about it lets do something.Tell me police are here to protect and serve right, and they have to abide by the law well what makes cps so different. People think that if they pick up the phone and make a call they are saving a child. well let me tell you the child or children are in more danger when cps is notified so before making that call think to yourself am i doing good or bad,also ask yourself if you have children would i want this to happen to me!

  • mypc46
    May 16, 2008 11:26 p.m.

    Just as i thought..no one saw the photos of the ranch from the air. There are at least 12 houses and a number of mobile homes. Not everyone was living in a single residence. Since some men had 1 wife they were probably in the mobile homes.The men with many wives had a large house for all the members. Since when is just FLDS the only religion brain washing kids. Italian mom and my dad had to sign for kids to be raised catholic. Them folks really mess you up. And we all force our views on our kids. After all why say to kids...because I said so! Anyone raising a child has 5 years to mold that child into whatever they wish. As I said return these families to the ranch and help them to change. CPS= largest abuse warehouse. They are foaming at the mouth with the hopes of adoption bonuses.

  • James Rich
    May 16, 2008 8:15 p.m.

    Just how long does it take to 'investigate' wether the original call was real or false? My understanding is that it came from a black woman in colorado who has a history of making crank calls.
    Where's the arrest? Where's the FOI forcing CPS to reveal their phone records? Have these calls been traced? I think that any 2 bit detective could figure this out in around 2 weeks - maximum.

  • Gramma
    May 16, 2008 6:27 p.m.

    CPS, the most corrupt, cruel, and powerful department of any government, operates like this everywhere in the world. US, Canada, you name it - they steal your children and you have no hope. Judges go along with them, politicians, for the most part, don't care, or regurgitate the evil PR phrase "in the best interests of the child". People have to unit and start a class action lawsuit (I believe there is one in US already), and pressure their politicians with petitions and so on. Don't vote for anyone who isn't going to protect your rights as a parent, and ensure that your child or baby can't be stolen.

    ALL IT TAKES IS ONE ANONYMOUS PHONE CALL - SOMETIMES EVEN LESS. AND WHO IS TO SAY THAT THE SOCIAL WORKER THEMSELF WON'T BE THE ONE MAKING THE "ANONYMOUS PHONE CALL."

  • G
    May 16, 2008 1:16 p.m.

    "You state that kids don't go to college, but I'm assuming that you realize they grow up. And if either pregnant or brainwashed, they won't have a chance to go to college."


    Do you not realize how silly this exchange has become when you state that the government can take children away because parents don't send them to college?

    I'd be laughing now if your views weren't so disturbing. Maybe CPS should start taking children away from people that make $20,000 a year or less, since they obviously can't afford college.

  • G comment - 1:32pm
    May 16, 2008 9:53 a.m.

    the problem with your rationale is that I really don't care whether CPS found evidence of abuse. I care that the women and children are let out of that compound so they have some options in life. It's unclear to me why you try to impress with big words that most here do not understand (like "non-sequitirs", which you misspelled, by the way, since I do understand it) when you could simply speak in plain terms.
    You have yet to actually address the issue. You state that kids don't go to college, but I'm assuming that you realize they grow up. And if either pregnant or brainwashed, they won't have a chance to go to college. So stop beating around the bush and trying to impress with big words. Try actually addressing the issue of servitude being forced upon these women and children. That is, after all, the big issue. That's why the children were taken. The most ironic part is that you FLDS don't even realize that is the issue. You think it's about underage brides. lol - wake up. Free the women and children and you can live as you like.

  • Wanda Farmer
    May 16, 2008 12:44 a.m.

    This is true about the case workers, And if you say something to them. they will tell more lies about you. I live in Milam Co. TX Population about 25,000. Cps took more then 400 children into foster care last year. Only 120 of them are with family. My granddaughter and grandson, are apart of them. Based on false accusations. These case workers don't care about the children, they just want the money. We didnt even get to talk in court. Cps told their story, and that was the way it was. We had no money for an attorney.We were not told our rights. They retaliate if you complain. If you don't stay quiet, they threaten to send, your children some were else. And we wont be able to find them. You just need to sign your rights away. So they can adopt them out. For the money. Our children are being sold to the highest bidder, the government. There are 6 million people in the US saying that cps stold their children and know one can do anything about it. Thank You W. F.

  • G
    May 15, 2008 1:59 p.m.

    "As for the poor writing skills of the Mental Health workers, they are probably drawn from the same pool as the CPS workers. Few of the CPS workers we have come into contact with over the years have the comprehensive skills to grasp a technical concept such as legal rights and almost none possess the compassion to look inside an issue and weigh the consequences of their abuse. Their reading comprehension skills are minimal and sometimes laughable. That is sad."

    In many states all you need to be an entry-level social worker is a B.S. degree in anything. State agencies like CPS and many others soak up the graduates that find that their peace studies or feminist theory degrees don't get them far in the private sector and whose records don't qualify them for the graduate schools. They get decent salaries, good benefits, and employment for life since it's very difficult to fire state workers. And they get to impose their will on others.

  • Antizelot
    May 15, 2008 1:49 p.m.

    of course I am against young girls being forced to marry if they don't want to. They could have gone in there and asked them if they were imprisoned by their husbands. Not one person from the YFZ said thanks for rescuing me. There were no victims there until they all had their children kidnapped. Maybe they were mad at the women for wanting to go home with their kids instead of renouncing their husbands.

    I don't see how a young girl getting pregnant by a boy her own age who has no means to support her is good. "Safe sex" is more of a benefit to men than women. It is nothing more than unpaid prostitution. It causes emotional damage in young women as they travel though numerous meaningless sex partners. Men want sex. Women want love, stability, and a safe place to raise their children.

    Even if the Mormons paired off teenagers I'll bet they would have still been treated the same.

  • Grandpa Phil
    May 15, 2008 1:39 p.m.

    Magnus, that is just the kind of eye opening people need right now. You are correct of course. Sooner or later, most, if not all of these children will have to return to parental custody. The State can threaten and wail and knash teeth all they want but, sooner or later, the reasons for keeping them away from their parents will dissolve like sand castles at high tide. When that happens, the State will find out that they have only reinforced in the children what their parents have been telling them - that the authorities out there are the bad guys. I agree with them; the authorities in Texas ARE the bad guys and, if I lived in Texas, you can bet I would be making considerable preparations to make sure this could not happen to my family. CPS only has themselves to blame. Their worst fears will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. (Sorry, I just have to chuckle when I think about all you folks out there who don't believe in prophecies.)

  • G
    May 15, 2008 1:32 p.m.


    To the poster at 8:33:

    "what I said isnt practiced every day in the bible belt. Those kids go to college and are free to choose their path. These kids are locked behind a guard tower. See the difference?"

    I've lived in the Bible Belt all my life, I think I know how things go here. Yes, many religious groups teach that non-protestants will go to Hell when they die, and generally threaten their own children with the same. That isn't conducive to producing well-balanced children, but not illegal nonetheless.

    As for college, that issue is completely irrelevant because "kids" do not generally go to college. College is for adults (18+) and is not a parenting issue any more than military enlistment is ("Kids" that old are fighting in Iraq right now. Call CPS.)

    Why you pro-CPS types continue to resort to non-sequitirs like this one is confounding since Texas insists that they have substantive evidence that FLDS was doing something that was actually illegal and not something that is merely disturbing to your own particular suburbanite, soccer-mom ethos and therefore "bad parenting".

    The world is a big place, and not every good parent drives a minivan.

  • magnus
    May 15, 2008 12:18 p.m.


    It is my and every other parents God and State given right to teach my children (or indoctrinate them) the way that I think is in their best interest.

    There may not be a right way to handle a complicated situation like this, but I think there is little question that this is the wrong way. I hope and pray that justice when the dust settle that justice is served for everybody involved here. Unfortunately justice isn't going to repair the damage done to these kids.

    I wonder if anyone at CPS ever considered the possible outcomes of this situation? Maybe shortsightedness is just part of being a Texan. I wonder if anybody ever thought about the high probability that if these kids do go back to their families (which they probably will because the state is running out of reasons to keep them) and they grow up continuing to be "indoctrinated" with the teaching of their faith. How much MORE like will they be to become MORE extreme in their distrust fo the government and MORE radical in their separationest views.

    Childhood Trauma + percieved injustice + abuse of authority + isolation = perfect breeding ground for extremism

  • Grandpa Phil
    May 15, 2008 9:23 a.m.

    Spam City would love to make everyone believe that the only supporters the FLDS families have is other FLDS people. Hate to be the one to burst your bubble Spam City but there are a LOT of us out here who see this for what it is. Under the pretext of protecting the children from abuse, the State of texas has perpetrated the worst case of abuse on a group of children in the history of the United States - UNDER COLOR OF LAW. The illegal actions of CPS and the Sheriff Dept. are actionable under 42 US Code, Sec 1983. The people may take their time in figuring out what happened but, when the smoke and mirrors have cleared, someone is going to pay dearly for treading on the rights of these families. If there really was any child abuse, prosecute it. None of us has any problem with that. As yet, we have yet to see any. All we hear is vague accusations and innuendo and hearsay. Such things are only admisable in Kangaroo Courts. We will wait and see how the hearings are handled and hope the theme song to CPT Kangaroo isn't playing in the background.

  • Grandpa Phil
    May 15, 2008 9:03 a.m.

    Interloper, my wife and I served as foster parents to over 200 teenage foster daughters in NC over a five year period. We have seen first-hand the abuses that CPS has inflicted upon children and families in this State. Now we are watching those same things happening in Texas. We are STILL waiting for the "legal procedures involved in child custody cases" to become apparent. There do not seem to be any in the Texas case. What you call a distraction and a "tempest in a teapot" is nothing less than an attempt to minimalize the horrific scope of State abuse in this case. It is called the exercise of unrighteous dominion and CPS has honed it to a science.

    As for the poor writing skills of the Mental Health workers, they are probably drawn from the same pool as the CPS workers. Few of the CPS workers we have come into contact with over the years have the comprehensive skills to grasp a technical concept such as legal rights and almost none possess the compassion to look inside an issue and weigh the consequences of their abuse. Their reading comprehension skills are minimal and sometimes laughable. That is sad.

  • To antizelot
    May 15, 2008 8:35 a.m.

    "Statutory rape laws are unconstitutional and are nothing but a tool custom made to persecute religious responsible people and celebrate teenagers who fornicate secretly in backseats of cars. Statutory rape laws don't stop teen pregnancies and never will. That is what Abortions are for !!"

    Yes, but there is a major difference between teens who explore their sexuality--not with the best results, sometimes--of their own free will and kids who are forced into marriages with adults several times their age. None of the teens I work with chose forty-year old men for their partners. I'm a high school teacher, and there are plenty of teens having sex, but they have access to birth control. FLDS kids do not. And they're told that if they don't submit to these older men they're disobedient and bad and going to hell. What kind of life is that, whether that's how you were raised or not?

  • To - G
    May 15, 2008 8:33 a.m.

    what I said isnt practiced every day in the bible belt. Those kids go to college and are free to choose their path. These kids are locked behind a guard tower. See the difference?
    Comparing these kids to those raised in a std religious household is just ignorant.

  • Spam City
    May 15, 2008 7:09 a.m.

    I see the FLDS spammers were up late with their usual weak arguments about the CPS trying to destroy their religion.

    In reality, CPS is only trying to prevent the FLDS from further abusing their children, but the FLDS don't see anything wrong with abusing their children, so to them, this is all a giant conspiracy to destroy their religion.

    Whatever it takes, the FLDS must be prevented from getting their kids back until they've agreed to abandon their practice of forced underage marriages.

  • CPS insects
    May 15, 2008 1:13 a.m.

    First they take everything out of Rozitas apartment, so that well never learn the truth of how all this started. They confiscate the mothers cellphones so that there wont be a visual record of the children being ripped from their arms, then they make social workers sign confidentiality agreements so that no one will know how theyre mistreating their victims. They operate in the dark like roaches, with all the morality of insects.

  • John
    May 15, 2008 12:41 a.m.

    How would you like it if your children were taken away because a neighbor down the street abused a child? Why didn't they first investigate to find out who was doing the abusing?

  • to psyche nurse
    May 14, 2008 9:29 p.m.

    Thank you, I work as a counselor and can't believe the damage cps has done to these children affecting them the rest of their lives. There are abandonment issues as a child cannot understand this cruelty of separation by the State. The children need to be returned immediately, I wish we could drive an army in there and pull the same act on CPS as they pulled on the FLDS.

  • Interesting to the Interloper.
    May 14, 2008 9:28 p.m.

    Tomorrow is another day. I'm beginning to wonder who is keeping all of this hullabaloo going. I've yet to read anywhere but on this web site about the letter to President Bush, the letters from the MHMR workers, etc.

    I stand by what I said earlier. MHMR staff do not have a leg to stand on. Posters need to check their records also. I find it interesting that they did not say how many workers were actually at the coliseum. Was it 9 complaints out of 9 staff, or 9 complaints out of 100 staff?..We will probably never know that one for sure.

  • Thomas
    May 14, 2008 9:22 p.m.

    The CPS continues on it way harrasing innocent parents and their children. CPS has already acknowledged that one alleged child bride is an adult. What happens if all these so-called child brides are actually adults?

  • Interloper
    May 14, 2008 8:58 p.m.

    This tempest in a teapot is a distraction that I am sure will fade since there is no actual evidence of abuse of any of the FLDS guests. Based on the poor reasoning, spelling and grammar errors of most of the MHMR workers, I do not think they have qualifications to be making judgments about important issues anyway. They were likely there to soothe the guests, a job that they obviously failed in.

    I look forward to the evidence being weighed and individual child custody cases being resolved. But, that should be done with deliberate speed so that youngsters are not returned to abusive FLDS members.

    It saddens me that the degree of ignorance of some people in our country is such that years after everyone should have learned people in the condition Terri Schiavo was in have no brain functions beyond those provided by the brain stem such as breathing, there are still folks incapable of grasping something that easy to understand. Let's hope that the YFZ Ranch saga will provide lasting understanding of why child sex abuse is unacceptable in our society, and, the legal procedures involved in child custody cases.

  • antizelot
    May 14, 2008 8:17 p.m.

    Ive written a few angry letters and at least it will make you feel better if nothing else. You should also write to your senators and tell them you are not happy with your tax dollars being used to steal children from their families. This problem is beyond just the Texas CPS it is happening in every state because of financial incentives. As you have noticed the FBI has not stepped in to protect the rights and well being of US citizens and frankly that scares me more than the Texas authorities. The FLDS also has their own website where you can contribute. But if Judges wont obey the law what good will hiring attorneys do ?

  • Unbelievable
    May 14, 2008 7:10 p.m.

    What can we do? We MUST do something. We cannot stand idly by and watch this travesty go on. We must stand up for these children and save them from the clutches of this horrible evil which is the Texas CPS. Can we contribute? Can we write to Governor Perry? Will it do any good? This entire situation makes me sick to my stomach. We MUST do something.

  • antizelot
    May 14, 2008 6:43 p.m.

    Statutory rape laws are unconstitutional and are nothing but a tool custom made to persecute religious responsible people and celebrate teenagers who fornicate secretly in backseats of cars. Statutory rape laws don't stop teen pregnancies and never will. That is what Abortions are for !!

  • G
    May 14, 2008 6:10 p.m.

    "
    These parents were abusing these kids EVERY DAY!! By telling them that everyone and everything outside the gates is evil, and if they leave they will go to hell - and told that every day from the day they are born, by people they trust - that's abuse. That's stealing their future - and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy."


    There's a slight problem with your idea--namely that what you have just described is legal and practiced daily in the Bible Belt and elsewhere.

  • CPS was wrong
    May 14, 2008 6:05 p.m.

    I agree. The CPS shouldn't have done what they did. But it's probably better than my idea, which is to bulldoze all the walls and the guardtower and make the kids go outside the compound 2 afternoons a week.
    Listen, people - these children's rights were being STOMPED ON. Instead of being so concerned about the parents rights, try (for once) to think of the children's rights to an open and proserous future. If left alone in that compound, they were all destined to be enslaved and have no hope for a future. Granted, they'd be happy, since ignorance is bliss, but they could do great things in the real world, yet none of them would have any chance at all. How many doctors, scientists, etc are in ththose kids? We would never know.
    These parents were abusing these kids EVERY DAY!! By telling them that everyone and everything outside the gates is evil, and if they leave they will go to hell - and told that every day from the day they are born, by people they trust - that's abuse. That's stealing their future - and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

  • Dan
    May 14, 2008 6:02 p.m.

    I am grateful that some mental health personnel observed these things. When the lawsuits begin, their testimony will give the FLDS folks some strong ammunition. Texas is not the only state that has a problem. We had a daughter about 10 years ago that was acting out and was at our request, placed in foster care. She was thrown out of the Foster parents car while traveling 35 mph and left by the side of the road. A sweet couple came upon her and call us. She was injuried with a several bumps on the head, arms, and legs. She was lucky. We picked her up and took her to the hospital and then home. The state tried to start trouble, but with the help of a good lawyer, the state backed off and we forced an investigation. Needless to say, we would never want to see any child put a state supported agency, that behave in such a manner. Our daughter, is married and has 5 children and doing well. However, she still does not trust the authorities. We have a wonderful relationship. So, beware, when the state says that they are here to help.

  • Missing the point
    May 14, 2008 5:36 p.m.

    Sure, this was not handled in the best way possible. Granted, it should have been planned better, and CPS clearly hadn't done their homework on how they were going to provide for all these folks...
    BUT- these compounds need to be taken down. I have no problem with the LDS church. I have no problems with freedom of speech, religion, etc. I do have problems with the FLDS that consistently flip the bird to the laws of America (laws that the rest of us abide by), consistently manipulate our tax system to their benefit, and consistently abuse children. Those things should be red flags for all Americans. If the FLDS members will abide by the laws of our country, by all means let them live in peace. Until then, I commend Texas for the effort though not the actual execution.

  • G
    May 14, 2008 5:11 p.m.

    "If CPS workers mistreated FLDS members while they were in protective custody, that is inexcusable and, if proven, CPS workers who violated CPS procedures or broke the law should be held accountable."

    If CPS workers COULD be held accountable these abuses would not have happened.

  • don't get mad
    May 14, 2008 5:05 p.m.

    get even. Or at least get involved. Google "captive flds children" and go to the top page. If you look at their side of the story (those videos must have been shot before their kids were taken away, right ?) and still think they have a reason to fight, there is a Donate page. Put some money into it, that's the only way to send a message. If their defense fund grows very large, it will be noticed. You homeschollers out there, and other odd balls, these people are setting a precedent in a battle that might be yours tomorrow. You think your state's agencies are not watching this ? This will tell them how much they can get away with. This matters. Those folks have no choice in the matter, they have to fight this (apparent) injustice. You can choose to support them. And get a few friends to join you. It might be the only way to DO something. And no, I have nothing to do with FLDS, far from it. I'm all in favor of prosecuting crimes of abuse. I don't think you need to be FLDS to be deeply disturbed by this thing.

  • Granny Relda
    May 14, 2008 4:51 p.m.

    Interloper, bumblebees can't fly, according to physics. Stuff that in your pipe, then pipe down. CPS is ALL about the $. Every child entering their system is accorded a bottomless pocket of Federal dollars. You wanna know why Social Security is bankrupt, look no farther. CPS is the culprit, nationwide. No charges will be brought, no social wreckers (or their racketeering partners, the judges and attys)will be held accountable for the disaster these families are experiencing. PTSD is a common after-effect following CPS involvement. My children's therapist says nobody'll do the studies to prove her theory: children who've been CPS -involved do poorly afterward because of the trauma of losing their families & entire worlds when they are removed and placed into fostercare. When a REAL crime is committed, the criminal is removed to custody, not the putative victim(s). May God bless these families, ALL of them.

  • David
    May 14, 2008 4:38 p.m.

    As a retired public agency risk manager (legal liability, safety, insurance, etc.), my hope is that the state of Texas will face tens of billions of dollars in civil liability for this unspeakable violation of civil rights and, moreover, that complicit CPS/police/government personnel will be held criminally responsible for their illegal actions and will serve hard prison time. Where are the federal 'authorities' when they are needed the most? Why have the kidnappers not been arrested?

  • Psych Nurse
    May 14, 2008 4:31 p.m.

    These children under 5 do not have the neurological development to understand what is going on and they are grieving for their mothers' in the same way as if their mothers' were dead. The longer these kids stay in this situation the more damage is being done to them.

    Chairman Kite knows this. Please try to find his email address and send him a letter of support in his efforts to reunite these children with their mothers.

  • Oregonian
    May 14, 2008 4:21 p.m.

    It is time for all good people to stop being silent about this. Please send a note to Gov. Perry and demand that he put a stop to it and return those children to their mothers.

  • SWP
    May 14, 2008 3:59 p.m.

    Texas is the same State where the Government killed the families and children in Waco. While I believe that FLDS has an evil philosophy of life, I believe that there are many organizations that are evil but I do not support government taking their children and their lives. There has been no due process as to individual children. This is way it is hard to trust governments.

  • antizelot
    May 14, 2008 3:20 p.m.

    Only a sadistic sociopath could possibly think that stealing innocent children from their parents is ok. PERIOD

  • Objectivity
    May 14, 2008 2:55 p.m.

    How does one look at this situation without judging? Very difficult to do.

    Life is a series of choices, and for each choice there are consequences, good and bad. This is nothing more than the Law of Karma at work.

    And we see it at work now with this situation: a Karmic rebalancing, nothing more.

    No debt goes unpaid in the Universe...

  • Cindy
    May 14, 2008 2:49 p.m.

    RE: Obvious | 1:47 p.m. May 14, 2008 said "The numerous posts on this site supporting the FLDS do not reflect the attitudes around the country. The public sentiment is overwhelmingly in favor of reigning in these polygamists. They no longer live in secret. They will have to watch their backs from here on in."
    *********************
    Yea, that is what the news and the Government said about the Short Creek Raid and we all see how much it changed the FLDS - not a drop!

    Also much of the public sentiment is against the FLDS because the mainstream media is bias. There are few if ANY reports on the women that CPS have now said are adults. Almost no reports on CPS trying to take babies away from these women. NOthing on CNN or FOX about a new mother sleeping on a mattress on the floor with a newborn. Want to keep the public on your side... limit what you tell them. Paint everyone with a wide brush!

  • Greg
    May 14, 2008 2:40 p.m.

    To: Axe to Grind

    "Being rude and insensitive to people in such a trying circumstance, though unacceptable, is not against the law."

    You're in for a big surprise.

    When a governing entity aprehends people and then shows animosity toward them, it is evidence that the aprehension itself was a result of the same animosity.

    Texas is in deep and will pay BIG.

  • Algonquin
    May 14, 2008 2:34 p.m.

    "Who do you root for? And is there a way both sides can lose?"

    Well, you root for neither and hope for significant change in both.

  • magnus
    May 14, 2008 2:34 p.m.

    @ Axe to Grind

    You're right being rude to people you have imprisoned is not a crime.

    You know what else isn't a crime? Indoctrinating your children.

    But that is what they are now saying is the primary reason they tore these kids away from their families and refuse to give them back.

    NOT BECAUSE OF ABUSE, BECAUSE THERE WAS NONE.

    NOT BECAUSE THE WHOLE COMMUNITY WAS HAVING SEX WITH MINORS, BECAUSE THAT ONLY JUSTIFIES TAKING A FEW YOUNG GIRLS.

    IT IS BECAUSE THEY WHERE INDOCTRINATING THEIR CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!

    That my friends is not a slippery slope, that is a cliff. IF CPS can justify this action on the grounds that they "felt that the children where being indoctrinated to be abused and to be abusers" then heaven help us all.

    Moreover, if they where worried about the scope, instead of carting them all off to a concentration camp and separating them like cattle, maybe they could have just put the community on house arest until they figured out what was really going on. But hey, that might not have made the news.

  • Greg
    May 14, 2008 2:30 p.m.

    To: The Texan

    "Hey Grandma (obviosu FLDS poser), abuse was found, that why the courts ordered the action they did. You have dementia or something."

    I couldn't have asked for a better expression of Texas bigotry than this.

  • God Bless America
    May 14, 2008 2:06 p.m.

    Do I agree with plural marriage? No. Are these children being raised to be terrorists? No. Have we allowed government to be our conscience? Yes. Do you want more government intervention in your lives? Vote for Democrats.

    This raid, we now know, was based on false pretenses. Return these people to their homes and let them live in the land of the free and home of the brave. And prosecute those that break the law, whoever it may be.

  • Re: Watcher
    May 14, 2008 2:04 p.m.

    I don't consider leaving children with abusive parents until the parents have been tried and convicted of abuse to be an American tradition or constitutional.

    The children have rights too, specifically, the right not to be abused by their parents.

    We're not certain that all of the children actually belong to parents living at the ranch, so the state first has to determine the legal parents of each child before the children can be returned.

  • Anonymous
    May 14, 2008 1:56 p.m.

    Horrific and shameful. Where is the humanity? The basic relationship between a mother and her child is something every human being should understand.

    I can't help but think, "what would I do?" I would die before letting my children be taken away from me. I have small children and I know how much they need me. This is criminal and every American should be ashamed.

  • Obvious
    May 14, 2008 1:47 p.m.

    What is obvious is the Texas authorities were in over their heads here and some individuals abused their power. However, the individual hearings will proceed and most of these kids will be returned to their parents. I suspect the preteen/teen girls may be separated until they reach 18. But life on the ranch has changed forever. The numerous posts on this site supporting the FLDS do not reflect the attitudes around the country. The public sentiment is overwhelmingly in favor of reigning in these polygamists. They no longer live in secret. They will have to watch their backs from here on in.

  • Grandad
    May 14, 2008 1:30 p.m.

    My Grandma (11.57) should have read "Re Grandma" @ 11:26 am.
    I agree wholeheartedly with Watcher 1:15pm

  • Watcher
    May 14, 2008 1:15 p.m.

    Respect american tradition and constitution - return the children to their homes, and THEN begin appropriate prosecutions of any law breakers.

  • Ing
    May 14, 2008 1:01 p.m.

    "Some sacrifices might be required..."

    Some sacrifices are just not worthwhile.

    Even if CPS has the best of intentions and the callousness they've been accused of is blown out of proportion, how can anyone say that all of these children will be better off for being suddenly taken away from their parents?

    I can't help imagining my own children, 9 and 6 years old, in such a situation. I don't think they'll ever be in that situation, and I would never do anything to put them in it, but as a parent, I can't help but think of how my kids would feel. They would be devastated. They would never recover fully from that. I don't think I would ever recover from it, either.

    There's no disputing that the FLDS marriage practices are against the law and considered immoral by the vast majority of society.

    I also think there's no disputing that the Texas CPS handled this situation INCREDIBLY poorly. No matter what their motives, I just can't believe that taking more than 400 children away from their parents at the same time is the right response.

  • The Texan
    May 14, 2008 12:27 p.m.

    Let's see;

    9 unsigned letters from how many people. Hey, wake up people there are over 400+ people assigned and 9 have a problem? Maybe, it's personal.

    Stop stooping to gossip and rumors. Either the FLDS have a valid leg to stand on or this rumor mongering is going to bite them where they sit. Grow up, people.

    Texas CPS is the greatest.

    Hey Grandma (obviosu FLDS poser), abuse was found, that why the courts ordered the action they did. You have dementia or something.

    This is stupid.

  • Anonymous
    May 14, 2008 12:27 p.m.

    You FLDS people need to learn to spell. It is hard to understand your comments whenever you are ranting and raving, using really bad spelling. Also the CAPITAL LETTERING NEEDS TO GO! Too much drama.

  • Granddad
    May 14, 2008 11:57 a.m.

    Grandma. I'm not FLDS. But if they come after them, if you are old, you maybe on the list. How can you be so heartless?
    Don't be blinded by 65 year old men, fraud, child abuse, ect. They need to be corrected but right now these babies and their mothers should not be suffering.

  • Thank you
    May 14, 2008 11:51 a.m.

    Deseret news for reporting the latest in this case.

  • To Bruce
    May 14, 2008 11:49 a.m.

    FLDS did buy the land in Eldorado...under false pretenses...The snowball to hell started then.

  • Rich
    May 14, 2008 11:49 a.m.

    John Kight is not an expert in constitutional law, just a bureaucrat charged with administering within a bureaucratic government. Would he rather have children raised in a polygamous community, which is by definition a community based on illegal activity in which children are cultivated to continue the practice of law-breaking, or would he rather have children raised by families that honor and sustain the law? Society might choose the latter, realizing there are some sacrifices that might be required to accomplish that end. I applaud Texas for taking action rather than sticking their heads in the red sands of southern Utah. Mark Shurtleff is an ostrich.

  • Cleanup
    May 14, 2008 11:40 a.m.

    Today the news is high gas prices, the primary elections and the earthquake in China but is there anything more important than these little children and their mothers that were kidnapped and are being abused by the Texas CPS?
    Our elected representative need to be aware of your public outrage that this could happen in the United States in 2008. Please do your part and call them.
    I'm not FLDS.
    We can never accuse Germany again! We have our own guilt now.
    Why is our army in Iraq? What are they fighting for when we are doing this damage in this country?

  • Vindicated 2
    May 14, 2008 11:33 a.m.

    Either it takes forever to have your comments moderated or my last one got lost.

    Either way...They way these mothers have conducted themselves is commendable and we truly have much to learn (or remember as it were) about the right way to raise kids, and much to learn about humility in the face of such horrific government abuse. I for one would have come uncorked if CPS raided my home on such flimsy evidence and the second amendment would have been in play.

  • Re: Grandma
    May 14, 2008 11:26 a.m.

    Obviously today's designated spokeswoman/man for the increasingly hysterical (as in "frantic") FLDS propaganda machine.

    They continue to ratchet up their rhetoric in order to distract from the real issue, child abuse. Their end goal is to get their children back without any strings attached so that they can continue practicing their beliefs without restriction, even if some of those beliefs promote child abuse and rape.

  • Bruce
    May 14, 2008 11:07 a.m.

    Let's see...FLDS is buying some land and moving to our state. We can't have that..they're different.
    Hmmm...let's raise the legal marriage age up 2 years to entrap them, regardless of the fact that we have ghettos and barrios full of underage pregnancies with no marriage intended.
    The public is pretty gullible, then we could say "child abuse" (or some other buzzword) and they'll all excuse whatever we do in the name of the childrens "best interest".
    We'll let the media and CPS spew out accusations and most of the unthinking public will follow along like good little sheep.
    Sincerely,
    the great state of Texas

  • Vindicated
    May 14, 2008 11:06 a.m.

    I have posted on this and other sites several times over the past two weeks of my personal interaction with the FLDS. I have treated their families in my medical clinic for over 10 years. They are some of the most decent people I have ever met. I will vouch for the description of how the mothers love their children. I have watched the way the kids watch out for each other, and for the manners and respect they show. For the last month, my heart has been ripped out for them because I know better than to believe the crap being reported about total abuse in their community. Abuse there is more isolated than in the general population in my observation.

    TEXAS! Free these people NOW!

  • Grandma
    May 14, 2008 10:47 a.m.

    I intend to give on a regular basis to the FLDS defence fund, and have already given my first donation. But don't expect the lawyers to save them. It is only WE THE PEOPLE, who through our outrage and demand for action, will have any real long-term effect. Boycott all the news organizations that are not telling the truth (e.g, CNN, etc.). DEMAND action from policitians - don't let them hide behind the "Best interests of the child" lie any longer. Send them articles on CPS abuses - email them, write them, fax them, call them. Barbara Walther's phone number (at least her work number) is available on the Internet.

    LET THESE POWER HUNGRY, CORRUPT, HEARTLESS THUGS AND THEIR SILENT OR VOCAL SUPPORTERS KNOW THAT WE THE PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO SIT BY AND WATCH OUR CHILDREN KIDNAPPED AND DESTROYED!

    ACT NOW!!!!! They WILL be coming for your children, if we don't do something NOW!

  • Ax to grind
    May 14, 2008 10:39 a.m.

    As the FLDS and their supports have complained so much about the CPS motives in this case, I just wonder if all of John Kight's complaints came simply because of his neutral observations at the Colliseum, or if many of is his complaints are based on trumped up charges of trivial incidents because Kight had a previous ax to grind against the CPS.

    Being rude and insensitive to people in such a trying circumstance, though unacceptable, is not against the law.

    Child abuse and child rape are.

  • Las Vegas Guy
    May 14, 2008 10:28 a.m.

    I have found it very difficult to believe anything that the Texas Government has said about this whole situation. I have not for 1 second thought that the mothers of this community were abusive in any way. The Men I can see as being strict and overbearing and I can even believe some abuse perhaps. But I believe the State of Texas is reporting lies, lies, lies to help sway Public Opionion in what they are doing. These women have done nothing to merit them being taken from their children. If a government agancy attempted to take my kids from me or my wife for no good reason. They better be packing a lot of heat. The Texas CPS is sounding a bit like a Communist Division. Hey who's for the Government telling us how to raise or kids? ef off Texas CPS.

  • More interesting
    May 14, 2008 10:16 a.m.

    For what it's worth, I don't think that any of the parties involved in this fiasco are completely innocent nor do I think that they are all guilty. I don't think that the FLDS are totally wrong in some of their beliefs, but then I don't think that CPS would have taken on a case of this magnitude without having some kind of grounds for doing so. Mistakes have been made by all parties involved and some more will continue to be made. It has been said repeatedly that this case is unprecedented. Both parties are trying to work through tons of legal and moral issues. I don't think that it will end anytime soon. I think that we all need to stop being so vicious in our postings and let the courts and the lawyers work this out. Hopefully what's best for these kids will be the end result.

  • Tears
    May 14, 2008 10:03 a.m.

    I could hardly read this without wiping away a flood of tears.

    I do not agree with polygamy nor underage children marrying.

    But, this is very sad, I just can't understand this.

  • Raymond Takashi Swenson
    May 14, 2008 10:03 a.m.

    It is clear from these eyewitness accounts that you will be treated better as a terrorist at Guantanamo Bay than being a 4 year old child held by the State of Texas Child Protective Services.

  • Distraction
    May 14, 2008 10:02 a.m.

    If CPS workers mistreated FLDS members while they were in protective custody, that is inexcusable and, if proven, CPS workers who violated CPS procedures or broke the law should be held accountable.

    That doesn't excuse the FLDS from abusing their children, which is even more inexcusable. If it is proven that the FLDS members sexually abused and/or raped their children, everyone involved, directly or indirectly, should be held accountable.

    This story is an unfortunate distraction from the real issue, child abuse.

  • BBKing
    May 14, 2008 9:58 a.m.

    "They get their minds made up that they have unlimited power to do what they want and it's not right."

    This should be the final word on the attitude that is running the show in DCFS/CPS.

    What most people are not aware of is that the entire Child Protective Services authority is NOT found in criminal law but instead civil law. This means that the normal 'innocent until proven guilty' does not apply. This means that your Constitutional rights are NOT protected.

    Remember the Parker Jensen case? He failed a cancer test. The parents wanted a second opinion, the arrogant doctor said No. He wanted to do chemotherapy right then. The parents got a second opinion, which showed No cancer. The doctor was infuriated and called DCFS. The parents ended up having charges of kidnapping for wanting a second medical opinion! In the end, several more tests showed No cancer. Turns out the first test was mishandled, the arrogant doctor was wrong and the parents were right.

    The civil court law that governs DCFS/CPS allowed them to charge the parents with the felony crime of kidnapping their own child.

    The system is majorly flawed! FLDS case is also flawed!

  • To interloper
    May 14, 2008 9:51 a.m.

    Lets see if this posting gets past the censors. People need to check into the allegations of abuse that have been filed against MHMR workers before they start believing all they have to say. Their hands are not lily white.

  • Interesting to the interloper
    May 14, 2008 9:27 a.m.

    My last post seems to have gotten lost....again..I do support what you are saying. I am a nurse who worked MHMR for ten years, for the State of Texas. The term "MHMR workers" is a very broad term. Some of these staff receive extensive training, others very little. They are still grouped together. People need to check into the allegations of abuse and neglect that have been filed against some of these MHMR staff. Their hands are not lily white by no means. I asked a psychiatrist with MHMR once why they do not do psychiatric evaluations on people before they are hired. He stated "If we did, we would have no staff. Some of these staffers have more issues than the people they are hired to take care of"

  • Jack from Ark
    May 14, 2008 9:27 a.m.

    Finally some one coming out to help these unfortunate people. I absolutely do not condone what they do in there faith but this nonsense has to stop. These folks at CPS don't need to be fired, the guilty ones need to be brought up on charges of brutality, of over stepping authority and child abuse. Maybe if they had a little of their own medicine (like taking their children from them) they might be a little more compassionate themselves. Just remember That Germany did exactly the same thing as CPS during the second world war under the guise of taking care of the children. they harassed the mothers and intimidated the fathers with arrest. They then started eliminating all the children. Do you think the CPS would do that to protect their power? These jack booted thugs have gotten away with this as of now. Now lets all just sit back and do nothing and we won't be held accountable for this disgusting travesty of justice.

  • Ray
    May 14, 2008 9:24 a.m.

    I think the lesson is clear. Next time a 14-year-old girl shows up at a Texas high school pregnant, we need to sieze her and everyone else in the school, eh? Now there is precedence, no family in Texas is safe.

  • Anon
    May 14, 2008 8:59 a.m.

    Brings to mind a statement I once heard:

    "Now we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

    Guess that can be applied to both sides of this argument.

  • just thinking II
    May 14, 2008 8:56 a.m.

    to Interloper
    this is the problem with this issue. we all want to believe what we want. if someone writes for the FLDS then they have an agenda. if someone writes for CPS then all the charges are 100% justified. where is the truth. i have had dealings with flds. i have been in their homes and have seen how the children are treated and how i was treated by the flds members. they are shy aroung strangers. but that does not make them evil. i think the quotes in this article are true of how the flds are. my experience with cps is also true accourding to this article. this is the best article that has been published. good work. please reunite these children with their mothers. cps pull out while you still can. i know this will not happen but i would hope the governer would step in and do something. he wont but we can hope. after years it will be sorted out. what a black eye for the state of texas.

  • THANK YOU!
    May 14, 2008 8:57 a.m.

    What a great man to stand up and tell the truth, no matter how unpopular it may be!!!

  • To interloper
    May 14, 2008 8:54 a.m.

    I agree with your posting. There is so much that is not being said in this article. I am a nurse and worked MHMR for 10 years. There are some truly good people who work MHMR but there are also many who are very disgruntled about salaries, benefits, etc. Some MHMR employees have extensive training and others receive very little. "Mental Health workers" is a very broad term. Anytime there is an incident such as what is happening in Texas, some people will always play "Devil's Advocate".

  • E Plurus Unum
    May 14, 2008 8:52 a.m.

    Sadly this is typical behavoir for CPS. Perhaps a silver lining in all of this will be the exposure of CPS for what it is. This si what happens when you give government unlimited power and allow them to operate in secrecy - an abuse of power.

  • Grandma
    May 14, 2008 8:42 a.m.

    Interloper, it doesn't surprise me that you take the side of those who would beat down the vulnerable - Terry Schiavo, that is. ANYONE who would side with the CPS has to not only have something seriously wrong with their mind, but their heart as well.

    What makes people like you so cold? You'll pull the plug on someone - Terry Schiavo - who is loved and cared for and still has joy in her life (and you could see it in the videos which were spread all over the Internet)JUST as quickly as you'll consign hundred of children to a life of torture and misery.

    READ THE STATISTICS ON FOSTER CARE ABUSE!!!! THEY ARE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY HIGHER THAN THE ABUSE AT THE FLDS - by the way, NO abuse was found at the FLDS.

    Why are you so intent upon your cruelty? What abuse have you suffered that you must re-inflict?

  • Justice System?
    May 14, 2008 8:16 a.m.

    What has happened to Innocent until proven Guilty? The system has already branded these children and mothers guilty without evidence. Let me tell you whats wrong with society today its all about politics its voting season; who can get the better story. So that Texas and the United States can have some more twisted people in office. Whats wrong with raising children to have responsbilties, morals,values,decipline. If everyone raised their children with these types of values the prisons may not be so full. CPS is stupid because majority of workers are just there for a paycheck, not because they care. Judges, Police officers, Cps, You are no better than the next person we all came from the same creator, we all bleed red, so dont try to act all big and mighty, because you have a uniform and a title, Once apon a time you were helpful,caring, loving citizens, come back. Put yourself on the other side how would you feel if someone made a false phone call on your family.

  • Bob
    May 14, 2008 8:08 a.m.

    I am ashamed of Texas and America today! How can the government think that it is ok to act this way in the name of 'right'? Why is someone not coming to the aid of these American Citizens? Shame on Texas, Shame on America!

  • Phil
    May 14, 2008 8:06 a.m.

    CPS vs. FLDS, if you are looking for a lose-lose situation, you have already found it.

  • Phil
    May 14, 2008 7:58 a.m.

    Way to GO Grandma!!!!!! I, too, am an LDS grandparent, and I have been following this particular case very closely. I wrote a letter to Pres. Bush, to my Congressmen, and to the Gov of Texas about all of the CPS atrocities and the obvious "exercise of unrighteous dominion". I doubt anyone will care or even read my one letter; however, they cannot ignore all of our letters. People, get off your butts and actually DO SOMETHING to help these children and families. I even donated money to their legal defense fund. I will do whatever these people need in order to assist. I have 9 children of my own and nine more grandchildren and I know that what Texas did to these people will not stop at the Texas border. We have a Constitution that is supposed to protect us from things like this. Barring that, the Declaration of Independence mandates what we are obligated to do in the event those who are sworn to support and defend the Constitution fail to carry out their trust. "Nuff said.

  • Sharon
    May 14, 2008 7:56 a.m.

    ANYONE...being FLDS members or CPS members who inflicts abuse on another human, should be held accountable for their actions ! I, for one, feel the State of Texas has done what Utah and Arizona should have done years ago. Its also the State of Texas duty...to weed out the CPS workers who dont know how to treat others with respect,understanding and kindness. Its also the duty of any CPS worker who witnesses another CPS worker's mistreatment of these women and children to report it to the authorities.These abusive CPS workers need to be punished !

  • When will this be national news
    May 14, 2008 7:49 a.m.

    How long will it take the New York Times and CNN to report on this story.
    Our press is a dismal failure in getting to the real story.
    Great to see these mental care workers have done the right thing and spoken out on the abuse by may of the CPS staff.
    Lets hope this gets to the courts soon and compassionate judges will hear the facts and return the children soon.

  • Interloper
    May 14, 2008 6:57 a.m.

    What one most notices in the remarks of the MHMR workers is the lack of substance in their complaints. Not one episode of actual abuse is described. Much of what is described is hearsay straight from the mouths of FLDS women angry about not getting their way. Some folks are easily manipulated and I think these MHMR workers were. That is partly because they wanted to be.

    The remarks remind of the Terri Schiavo circus. Recall that there were health care workers testifying in news conferences that Schiavo had talked, eaten and drank, and even asked to go dancing. But, we know from the medical evidence that she was blind, incapable of swallowing and most of her brain mass had deteriorated within months of her injury. There are always fools who rush in regardless of the irrationality of doing so.

    Last, but not least, this MHMR unit, apparently subcontractors, are in a dispute with DPS as a result of some of the workers being dismissed from that assignment. They've lost money and, from their perspective, been insulted. It is not surprising that they would get together and write remarkably similar complaints against CPS.

  • CPS vs. FLDS
    May 14, 2008 3:24 a.m.

    Who do you root for? And is there a way both sides can lose?

  • What if...?
    May 14, 2008 2:07 a.m.

    What if the state is afraid to allow the mothers to take care of their own kids because of any harm the mothers have on their children? What's very sad is that this crazy, possibly abusive care that the kids are recieving is the first glimpse of the outside real world that the rest of us interact with daily. The women and kids may be abused by CPS but they're no longer in the control of the warped FLDS minds.

  • re: Betty
    May 14, 2008 1:55 a.m.

    So Betty, what do they pay at CPS now days?

  • Morgan
    May 14, 2008 1:34 a.m.

    What a travesty. I can't believe that this is happening in the United states. I can see separating children from the fathers, but only where there is probable cause to believe that the children have been or will be abused. I see no justification whatsoever for separating the children from their mothers. The argument that CPS only wants to get the truth from the children and believes the children will be unduly influenced by their mothers if they are allowed to stay together just doesn't fly. If CPS wants to question children outside the presence of their mothers, do that, but don't separate them.

  • Thotman
    May 14, 2008 1:18 a.m.

    Our country is founded on a Constitution which assures checks and balances...unfortunately the CPS has no checks nor balances. I am pleased that some crazy in the FLDS group has not committed some retaliatory act that would jepordize the entire lot. Given the current trends any such act of violence would probably result in the execution of innocent associates or worse their women and children. Where are the good men who seem to be doing NOTHING in rectifying this horrific situation...Where is the Governor? Where are the superior courts, and their judges? Where are the voters who elected Hildabrand, looking for their minds? Its time to demand that the children be returned to their parents...and the FLDS men who have committed crimes located and prosecuted...along with anyone (including judges, CPS bigshots and workers, and organizers of this inept removal) responsible for this violation of this groups civil and human rights. It is not sufficient to say they are weird...if weirdness is the standard for persecution and abuse half the country would be in trouble. Crimes are individual events and should be prosecuted as such. In our society the Rule of Law needs to be supreme.

  • Grandma
    May 14, 2008 1:16 a.m.

    Anonymous, 10 minutes research will show you that CPS is like this the world around. I have personally read case after case where families were ripped apart by lying, cheating, stealing CPS workers. Unchecked power is a vicious, dangerous thing. When you can operate with unlimited power, and in total secrecy, you had better believe there are going to be massive abuses of power. There is no other entity on the face of this earth quite like CPS. Their power to do harm is like nothing else. They can put you and your family through hell, and there is no way out of it. Families who have had a child die of natural causes and also had one stolen by CPS, say that it easier to have a child die, than to have him or her stolen by CPS.

    The cruelty is incomprehensible, but all too real.

    Let's band together, and put a stop to this now! Let's truly work for "the best interests of the child."

  • Grandma
    May 14, 2008 1:00 a.m.

    To the defender of CPS: I bet it is was investigated thoroughly YOU would be found to be affiliated with CPS. Trying to cover up for the brutality that cannot be denied now. No one with an I.Q. past 70, or a heart over 1/2 ounce, believes that CPS is operating in the "best interests of the child." It's way to late to try to garner sympathy for a gang of brutal thugs.

    If there is a hell, I'd hate to be a CPS worker.

  • Not Surprised
    May 14, 2008 12:03 a.m.

    This whole story has smelled bad from day one. Thank goodness for some people with courage to come forward with what they have seen and witnessed first hand.
    Please prosecute with evidence through our court system anyone who has molested or abused children but don't punish innocent people by association. I cannot believe what is happening in our country. CPS system needs to be revamped. The biggest culprit? Judge Walther(sp) she should be monitoring this out of control agency.

  • sosueme534
    May 14, 2008 12:03 a.m.

    I made several comments on here earlier, now they are gone. I was not abusive, but I did have a plan to stop this illegal action from continuning turn off your tv's and radios.don't go out of the house don't drive, we as a nation can bring these people to their knees in less than 2 days but it must be followed by almost all of this great nation. I know we can do it and if we don't our constitution won't be worth any more than toilet paper.

  • Anonymous
    May 13, 2008 11:17 p.m.

    Giving CPS the EXTREME benefit of the doubt:

    --Consider near disaster conditions, (partly erroneous) indoctrination about what to expect, and what they consider a legal mandate to protect children according to their definition of protection. Take scissors or knives. People not used to beign around mentally ill or suicidal people think these are completely innocent objects. CPS workers, besides their baseline experience are thinking "doomsday cult" or something.

    --Consider a population of people many of whom are closely related from both sides of their families, who look a lot alike, who have similar names. Today I was reading about one family who has two children named Joseph both under 5! Keeping track of all those people would give me a headache even if I were not also trying to be objective about the collective motherhood and communal breastfeeding..

    --Just taking a wild guess, I bet state personnel rules actually make it sort of logical that someone who for whatever reason needs not to work in a prison anymore might have lots of skills and background relevant for CPS.

    The CPS behavior is unfortunatelyabout average for CPS but it is a direct result in teis case of otehr legal overreaching.

  • Amen Lynn
    May 13, 2008 11:04 p.m.

    Thank you grandmother, for telling us like it really is. The children and women are the victims of a few evil men. Unfortunately, the victims are now suffering further abuse at the hands of CPS, who is above the law. I wonder if Gov. Perry and the state legislature will take any action.

  • Ben
    May 13, 2008 10:58 p.m.

    My heart goes out to these mothers,children, and their families. The state of Texas is clearly in the wrong. These people were minding their own business and hurting no one and especially not their own children. This is an atrocity. It all probably stems back to some (anti-Mormon) religious fanatic that doesnt agree with polygamy and decided to "punish" these innocent people.

  • Anonymous
    May 13, 2008 10:47 p.m.

    I think it's pretty insulting to call the FLDS men cowards. I myself have watched multiple cops'jaws drop when they thought I was admitting a felony. I wasn't but the resulting legal entanglements gave me headaches for years. So I do not blame the men for keeping a low profile or relying on lawyers. In this case, although I would not mind in the least if this experience made these guys rethink some aspects of their faith which I consider downright creepy, the lawyers are going to do them more good in the near term than their prophet

    I think the FLDS men DO need lawyers with the guts to point out all the social structures aimed at getting non-FLDS men who father children with multiple women to be responsible for the children they father. By that standard, however strange and disturbing I find many elements of the FLDS faith, these fathers cannot be faulted. CPS / DPS will have to dig up some real dirt or smear a very biased spin over some facts to overcome that point.

    For the record I do not endorse much older men marrying teenagers; i do endorse men supporting the children they father.

  • Lynn
    May 13, 2008 10:34 p.m.

    This article left me in tears. The thought of a little boy, just barely past toddler age, carrying a little pillow, walking down the rows, just begging for someone to rock him (like his mother rocked him), to comfort him, broke my heart.

    It was sad, too, that a boy went to a uniformed policeman, seeking help, and the policeman said he couldn't help him. I wonder how the officer felt. I imagine at least some of the law enforcement officers felt compassion for them.

    It also makes me angry that a former prison principal was even hired, let alone allowed to serve in a place where frightened children and women were being sheltered (if you can even call it that).

    I'm an LDS grandmother, and this whole thing is very upsetting to me. I can't, with a clear conscience, condone the actions of the FLDS leaders, who have broken several laws. But the women and children are suffering now, from abuse by the CPS. I have no doubt that there are innocent men who are suffering too, from the loss of wives and children. I fear there is neither justice nor mercy here.

  • Anonymous
    May 13, 2008 10:30 p.m.

    First do no harm. I was struck by the MH worker who cited horrendous long-term outcomes for kids who have dealing with CPS. I am sure part of the issue is that most kids coming into contact with CPS have already been through really awful damaging experiences.

    Feeding a kid into the maw of CPS with overworked caseowrkers, lack of followup, high staff turnover, chronically insufficient resources, and a hundred other hazards MIGHT be an improvement for a kid whose mother is a crack whore and dad is cooking meth, but those kids are already heavily damaged.

    On the other hand, the risks, hazards, and damage caused by the dynamics of the FLDS community are a lot more subtle. People who come across as loving and well-connected may in fact be poorly equipped to cope with disruptionsof their routines or circumstances that challenge their deeply inculcated coping mechanisms. In the best case, FLDS members may regard this as just another test from God. In that case a state agency hell-bent on destroying elements of the community will only make things worse, increase the chance of bad long-term outcomes.

  • Doug
    May 13, 2008 10:28 p.m.

    I hope and pray that some day the full truth of the situation in Texas will come to light. When it does, it will be interesting to see what average Americans find more repulsive -- the lifestyles of the polygamous FLDS or the brutality of the CPS.

  • Rose
    May 13, 2008 10:13 p.m.

    Betty--you are dead wrong! This has nothing to do with any cult--just because they believe different than you do. We live in a land of religious freedom remember? If you don't remember, go read our history books.

    Texas MUST release those children they kidnapped and give them back to their mothers and let them GO FREE. We do still live in a country where we can go to and fro freely. But apparantly not.

    TEXAS, let these children go home to their mothers NOW! Release them before you do more harm to these little ones.

  • From another psychologist
    May 13, 2008 10:06 p.m.

    After reading many of the ignorant and unprofessional statements made by Texas authorities and their supporters I was not surprised to read the accounts of mental health workers who observed and recorded the abuse of children and mothers by the CPS. Its too bad that the mistreatment of the FLDS is being overshadowed in the media by the downturn in the economy and the presidential elections.

    It makes me angry that innocent children are being more severely abused by the CPS than they may have been abused in their community. I'm not FLDS and don't know any members. I live in a different part of the country. But I do know about child abuse, and so far, from reading many media reports, I see far more evidence of child abuse from the CPS than I do from the fundamentalists.

  • I've noticed
    May 13, 2008 10:00 p.m.

    I've noticed that "Deseret News" fails to post many comments. Heavy censorship. Wonder if CPS might be pulling the strings?

  • betty
    May 13, 2008 9:44 p.m.

    nonsense, just another man trying to get some publicity for himself. the mothers and children were lying to the workers. we dont even know what children were theirs, all the so called wives claimed them all as their own.
    the children are in safe places, in safe hands, may god be with them. not the travesty of religion that the old men and pedofiles had waiting for them. the mothers were so brainwashed they could not protect their own children from the men in this cult.

  • observer
    May 13, 2008 9:28 p.m.

    Now that the true character of CPS is coming to light (no doubt just the tip of the iceberg) and considering the well documented horrors of the foster care system ... we can only imagine inhumane treatment and terror these kids are likely facing hour by hour, day by day.

    I suspect whatever we might imagine is not as bad as atrocities those FLDS kids are actually forced to endure at the hands of CPS (the alleged "protectors").

    Maybe the WACO kids were relatively luck to be burned alive. At least they did not have to suffer systematic humiliation at the hands of CPS. I don't think we have heard the worst yet.

  • Been there
    May 13, 2008 9:11 p.m.

    I'm surprised that the "Retired Psychologist Phd." is surprised. It's your occupation that help create this mess. I've been up against CPS. Even sued them. Won the law suit, but they're protected by law and didn't collect a thing. The damage they caused can never be rectified and made whole. Yes, CPS is needed, but they have too much uncontroled and unsupervised power. Some accountability is needed.

    It's like a lot of other issues that have evolved in America. Unless something is done to stop this kind of garbage, we'll end up imploding just like Soviet Russia. How sad. Yes, "Land of the Free", our founding fathers are rolling over in their grave.

  • CD
    May 13, 2008 8:29 p.m.

    I totally agree with these statements. I, too, spent two weeks volunteering with the ladies and their children at the coliseum. The ladies, voluntarily there, were gracious, compliant and wonderful mothers, completely dedicated to their children. CPS workers were like prison guards..harsh, suspicious, standing around them as they slept. They lied to the mother's the night of the hearing saying they wouldn't lose their children, they wouldn't tell the whereabouts of their other children and most weren't allowed access to the hearing or to newspapers. We were even reprimanded for writing down one mother's chidrens' names so that we could pray for them! However, the Texas Dept. of Health and the Texas dept. purchasing supplies for the ladies were excellent, sensitive to the mother's and children's needs and very agreeable. I commend those dept. but am disgusted with the action of CPS.

  • Reginald Day
    May 13, 2008 8:20 p.m.

    The CPS has just admitted to judge walther that a girl who gave birth and has been held, is an adult - not a minor as CPS had previously maitained.
    The woman showed ID, birth cert., license, but CPS would not admit she was an adult and held her.
    More proof that the CPS are liars, and in this case, have been holding and adult woman against her will! - this is Kidnapping! let the charges fly - and there'd better be someone held accountable!!!!!

  • Thomas
    May 13, 2008 8:12 p.m.

    When people are given too much authority, they abuse it. Our third-rate grandstanding politicians have afraid to rein in these CPS People and here is the result.

  • Concerned
    May 13, 2008 7:52 p.m.

    May the Lord be with them in this time of trouble and may the bigots like Pants on Fire have their hardened hearts softened.

  • Liar Liar Pants on Fire
    May 13, 2008 7:39 p.m.

    Well folks, If the FLDS Men were not such big HUGE Cowards these kinds of things wouldn't be happening now to the woman and children. The FLDS men have themselves completely to blame for this event. So to all you FLDS Men...PLEASE DON'T BE BOO-HOO-ING AROUND TO THE REST OF THE WORLD! You FLDS men have put your families into this predicament with all your many lies and lying to the authorities!

  • John
    May 13, 2008 7:22 p.m.

    This is the worst case of human rights violations that I've heard of in my life time. Texas should be ashamed for letting this take place in this day and age. Did we learn nothing from Hitler? A shamful day for America in general. Great article.

  • Rednael
    May 13, 2008 7:18 p.m.

    Adoption is big-business in this country. Healthy, drug-free white babies up for adoption are hard to come by. Child protective workers in many states are given quotas as to how many children they must place up for adoption every year.

    These agencies usually target single-mothers because they know that these mothers are incapable emotionally and financially of fighting these bloated government behemoths.

    What an opportunity the FLDS presented! A years quota in one fell-swoop! Who would care about the holocaust of this weird group!

    It seems a lot of people care.

  • retired psychologist Ph.D.
    May 13, 2008 7:06 p.m.

    I'm appalled that this could be allowed to happen in the United States of America.

    I'd never live in a FLDS compound, but American Citiziens' rights are being seriously jeapordized here. Children and adults are being treated as criminals by some sort of "guilt by association".

    I look forward to the removal of many folks from office and the review of blunder by the State of Texas in the Supreme Court.

  • Kairenn
    May 13, 2008 6:46 p.m.

    Christina, you take my breath away. Just how do you think all those mental health workers are affliated with the FLDS? Very few if any of the FLDS held jobs outside the compound. Honest people are standing up for what's right. They did say some CPS workers were good - most were not. They are telling the truth. CYS, CPS, whatever you want to call them - power mad.

  • JJ
    May 13, 2008 6:13 p.m.

    When is the movie coming out? This is so horrific that I wonder why isn't anyone or agency or official coming to their aide. This is a blatant disregard for human rights. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? Perhaps it is guilty by association.

    Somehow I am reminded of Waco...

  • Unbelievable
    May 13, 2008 6:12 p.m.

    When good people stand by and do nothing, freedom will die. The people of Texas should be ashamed of this travesty. The CPS officials as well as the judges and the governor and the legislature are no different than the Nazi butchers of the 1930's and 40's. They are reprehensible and beneath contempt. All freedom loving people of this country should rise up and condemn what has happened in the USST, the Unrepentant Sorry State of Texas. I would not be surprised if some of the worst offenders are those calling themselves good christians. Their actions are anything BUT christian. Shame on them.

  • Christina
    May 13, 2008 6:07 p.m.

    I bet if it was to be investigated throughly those Mental health workers are affialated with the FLDS. Trying to cover for them that poor parents syndrome those children are better off in CPS custody.

  • Thomas C. Inskip
    May 13, 2008 6:04 p.m.

    It is my experience that money makes the World go-round. What monetary incentive set the State of Texas to capture the YFZ compound? Separation of Church and State was established in The Constitution of The United States of America. Some American Native Tribes held separate religions; and continuing as tribes, none confront these powerful groups. However, we do see unaccounted confiscation of wealth from some American Native Tribes. What is under the YFZ compound? Please, get real...

  • It's about time
    May 13, 2008 6:04 p.m.

    It's about time some of the truth comes out about what CPS has been doing. I have a brother and a sister there as well as numerous other close friends whose families have been torn away from them. I knew they were being mistreated, but reading this is appalling! And this time, you can't say it's the FLDS just telling lies.

  • can't believe this
    May 13, 2008 6:03 p.m.

    If this is all true, it is horrendous. I don't believe these parents should be allowed to treat these children as property (as they do) but that does not justify the insane actions of CPS. I was on their side until I read this - now I'm ashamed of them.
    I think they should investigate and fire anyone that acted like this. There are good CPS and bad CPS - get rid of the bad. But just as important, don't send those kids back to that compound - give them a chance at a real future.

  • Hmmm
    May 13, 2008 5:56 p.m.

    That is the most horrific thing I've ever read--honestly.

    Those supposedly "superior-culture dwellers" from CPS showed the very worst traits of humanity. The offenders, each and everyone, should do jail time. For assault. For unlawful detainment. For kidnapping. Each and every one should be tried, convicted and punished under our legal system. To serve justice ; And even more importantly, to deter others and re-inforce to our society that we are a decent people. Not a police state.

  • pigiron
    May 13, 2008 5:33 p.m.

    Don't forget Barbara Walter [a judge] gave the order and is still running things. She's heartless.

  • The Truth
    May 13, 2008 5:06 p.m.

    As we are seeing the CPS has created this nightmre for these families. Whom ever is in control of this operation should be charged with kidnapping,extortion,assult amoung other charges.

    I cannot beleive the Judges of Texas have not steped in en masse to stop this before it gets alot worse.

    I hope all the families sue and win big settlements as they have been the victims.

    As far as any of the readers who feel that this unlawful seizue is justified please follow the Police
    to the the kool aid dispenser so you won't mish the train to heaven.

    WAKE UP.

  • Land of the free?
    May 13, 2008 5:00 p.m.

    Home of the brave? Our founding fathers are weeping in the heavens as this travesty continues to unfold before our eyes. Where are the freedom fighters in this day? Has patriotism died?